Koolio wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

How about remove things from incap to bring it line with Soul?

Bum bum bum!

Comparing Soul Harvest disfavorably to Incap misses the point of Soul Harvest. The strength of soul harvest has been, and always will be, its ultimate generation. There is no "bring it in line with Soul."

Incap isn't a better morph. It's the stamina morph. Incap has always been dodgeable, as any single target ability should be. It misses all the time if the target approaches you on a diagonal vector. Gankers don't get to stun often with incap because the snare from ambush (or stealth) will either already CC the target or grant them immunity if they break free. If you haven't killed the nightblade by the second or third incap, you have a different problem. Even in PvE, Incap is only viable now because of Warmachine.

Soul Harvest was always there to help a magblade (and even a stamblade) generate ultimate to drop on the boss. Soul Harvest never really was a PvP ultimate, apart from slotting it while zerging to build up a bomb faster. Even in PvE it still serves much the same purpose for a magblade DPS: you can't even use Soul Harvest to activate Master Architect reliably, since magplade DPS is ranged.

The two ultimates serve radically different purposes for radically different builds. If you're getting close enough to an enemy in a situation where you're not planning on using an AoE ultimate, it sounds like you would rather be a stamblade instead.

Magblade shouldn't be just more forgiving stamblade with shields. It is truly a different class.

tl;dr: This is another instance of the magicka persecution complex. Bring yourselves into line with stamblades.

So if I use the Moves Concealed Weapon Lotus Fan I should just go stamblade? The class has magic based close range moves a magic based gap closer and a magic based close range ultimate. No I don’t want to be a stamblade.

More forgiving? A light armor build without snare removal in melee combat isn’t exactly what I would call more forgiving. Especially when Healing Ward Siphoning Attacks and Cloak aren’t working properly. Wait maybe the heal that hurts me is more forgiving.

Magblade is a ranged class. The presence of those abilities does not change that paradigm.
1. Lotus Fan is an AoE gap-closer used in preparation for a bomb. It isn't a brawling melee ability.
2. If you're a vampire I wouldn't use Concealed weapon at all. As with Soul Harvest, it's slotted for its movement speed passive.
3. Both of the above are remnant abilities from when the entire nightblade class was magicka based. Ambush and Surprise Attack were changed to stamina morphs as part of the the changes long ago that brought stamblades into existence. Lotus Fan and Conceal Weapon are the leftover magicka alternatives from a change that caused quite the uproar when it came about. The presence of those abilities doesn't justify making the magblade as adept at close range combat as a stamblade, as they are used in ways radically different from their counterparts, with a very different intended purpose.

Yes more forgiving. You have vastly more recovery and defensive options as a magblade than you would as a stamblade.
1. You're not supposed to be in melee combat, so you shouldn't need snare removal as much.
2. You do have snare removal: It's called stamina. Unlike a stamblade, you don't need to rely on both resource pools to cast abilities, so there's nothing else for you to spend stamina on.
3. Healing Ward, Siphoning Attacks, and Cloak do work properly, they just aren't as OP as everyone would like them to be. Luckily the magblade has enough resource return to use them far more often than a stamblade ever could.
4. You also have Swallow Soul, Refreshing Path, Sap Essence, and Soul Tether. The Magblade class is brimming with HoTs.
4. Since you're running Healing Ward, you're running a resto stave, which means you also get to run Mutagen or Healing Springs. Slotted with Swallow Soul for the Minor Mending, those two abilities are powerful, low cost heals, and Mutagen will even remove a snare for you. Neither Rally nor Vigor are as powerful.

EDIT: Lets also not forget HARNESS MAGIC/DAMPEN MAGIC. As a light armor build, you get access to those powerful shields as well, in addition to Healing Ward. You can't Harness=>Harden like a magSorc, but then again magSorcs don't have cloak do they?

Healing ward doesn’t always give you a heal even if you get your own shield. It was just supposedly fixed with this PTS. Siphoning Attacks cause additional animations throughout the duration and can play the animation even on a mount. Cloak can be broken from light attacks. All of these are Bugs.

So I should only use Ranged? This makes no since considering my tooltip is normally higher on concealed than surprise. A snaring gap closers (stampede) sounds to me like a melee gap closer to keep them in range.

There is block dodge roll and break free from Stam pool. None of those help with snares. I can dodge roll a few times (Amber and Shacklebreaker) but in the end I’m still snared.

And why should I be pigeonholed into range when the class has melee moves. Even a melee ultimate. With 5 meter range. And soul tether so I Have to be in melee range. So it’s a Ranged class with melee Ranged moves and an melee Ranged Ultimates.

1. If healing ward ends up being fixed this update, then problem solved, and regardless it still gives you a shield with a chance a healing.
2. Siphoning plays the animation when it returns the burst of resources back to you at expiry, even on a mount. It's supposed to do that, and the animation doesn't interfere with the functionality.
3. Cloak can be broken by any form of damage, and entering cloak doesn't mean that an attack automatically misses. If you are where the light attack is heading when it hits, cloak will be broken. If you don't cast it fast enough, the attack registers and cloak is broken. Trust me, as a stamblade I know the limitations of cloak.
4. Your tooltip being higher on Concealed than on Surprised doesn't mean the magblade should play melee. Surprised is intended to do more damage, while Concealed is a utility ability for the movement speed passive. Of course your tooltip is higher on on Concealed; you're a magicka build and it's a magicka ability. My tooltip is higher on Power Extraction than Sap Essence, but that doesn't mean I should go using that damage skill and expect to get the same utility benefit of Sap Essence, and by the same turn you shouldn't go using the utility skill (Concealed Weapon) and expect to get the same damage benefit of the damage skill (Surprise Attack).
5. Stampede is a snaring gap closer to keep the target in melee range, for stamina builds, because they don't have powerful ranged AoE ultimates or ranged burst abilities. The purpose of their ability is defined by the options they have. As a magblade, you have the option to cast the Eye of the Storm, Ice Comet, or Soul Tether, which is why Lotus Fan stuns longer and reduces the movement speed of the target, rather than granting the Empower of Ambush. Lotus Fan keeps the target in your ultimates, whereas Ambush makes the next single-target, direct damage ability do 20% more damage.
6. Fair point on stamina and snares, but you can cast Efficient Purge to remove that snare more often than a stamblade can, and if you run mutagen on your resto bar, you can get that removed for a pittance of magicka in a small group. Casting Double Take again will mitigate the snare, and eating an entire snare isn't a death sentence to you like it is for a stamblade.
7. Whether you should be pigeonholed into range is a question for ZOS. Whether you are pigeonholed or not is your choice, but there's a damage performance deficit in choosing to be a melee magblade. The magblade's primary means of doing damage is with ranged abilities. The main purposes of the class's "melee abilities" are not to deal damage, but to provide utility (speed, ulitmate, healing), so yes, it is a ranged class with melee moves and melee ultimates, but it makes sense because those moves exist for purposes other than damage output. Using Soul Tether from stealth to bomb, which only became fashionable with Morrowind, isn't melee fighting. If anyone survives the bomb, the magblade is probably going to be annihilated in melee combat if they can't run away, because they are not currently designed for melee combat.

DDuke wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

@waitwhat

I have never seen a stamblade use meteor, most the time they use bow ult

Me neither.

I tried a build utilizing Skoria once (with Ambush+Incap timed with the proc), but I don't think those meteors count

waitwhat wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

Just fix the stun then? You're describing a bug and using it as a reason for a nerf.

Although, I would definitely get behind removing the stun and increasing the empower to 8 seconds for example. Would really help Stamblade in PvE.

No even with a fixed stun incap is too powerful. I wrote it down in another post about incap why a stun on a high damage ability is a stupid idea.
Stamnb doesn't need more buffs not a single bit, at least not in pvp. PvE is a completely different story but an increase to the bursty nature of stamnb isn't something this game needs, a way of more sustained damage would be fine

Meteor and Dawnbreaker are both high damage and stun on hit, incap isn't an outlier

Add Dragon Leap and Soul Tether to this category as well.

Oh yeah, Soul Tether bombs are a thing.

You can use Tether against a single target too.

Basicly magblade has the same melee capabilities as stamblade when you think about it, except I'd swap useless dodge rolling for Healing Ward spam (and permacloaking) any day...

Lotus Fan=Ambush/Crit Rush
Concealed Weapon=Surprise Attack
Tether=Incap

That's really the core of it.


Next patch (provided there's no big nerfs to a certain set) melee magblade will be very viable based on my PTS testing.

The magblade doesn't have the same melee capabilities as a stamblade because the builds are more than just their class abilities alone. You have to look at the rest of the toolkits each has to determine how their viability will play out.

You won't have a magblade dealing a lot of damage with the two handed skill line or the dual wield skill line, just as you won't have a stamblade dealing a large amount of damage with the destruction stave skill line. The stamblade's melee abilities exist to provide damage output. The magblade's melee abilities exist to provide utility.

DDuke wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

@waitwhat

I have never seen a stamblade use meteor, most the time they use bow ult

Me neither.

I tried a build utilizing Skoria once (with Ambush+Incap timed with the proc), but I don't think those meteors count

waitwhat wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

Just fix the stun then? You're describing a bug and using it as a reason for a nerf.

Although, I would definitely get behind removing the stun and increasing the empower to 8 seconds for example. Would really help Stamblade in PvE.

No even with a fixed stun incap is too powerful. I wrote it down in another post about incap why a stun on a high damage ability is a stupid idea.
Stamnb doesn't need more buffs not a single bit, at least not in pvp. PvE is a completely different story but an increase to the bursty nature of stamnb isn't something this game needs, a way of more sustained damage would be fine

Meteor and Dawnbreaker are both high damage and stun on hit, incap isn't an outlier

Add Dragon Leap and Soul Tether to this category as well.

Oh yeah, Soul Tether bombs are a thing.

You can use Tether against a single target too.

Basicly magblade has the same melee capabilities as stamblade when you think about it, except I'd swap useless dodge rolling for Healing Ward spam (and permacloaking) any day...

Lotus Fan=Ambush/Crit Rush
Concealed Weapon=Surprise Attack
Tether=Incap

That's really the core of it.


Next patch (provided there's no big nerfs to a certain set) melee magblade will be very viable based on my PTS testing.

The magblade doesn't have the same melee capabilities as a stamblade because the builds are more than just their class abilities alone. You have to look at the rest of the toolkits each has to determine how their viability will play out.

You won't have a magblade dealing a lot of damage with the two handed skill line or the dual wield skill line, just as you won't have a stamblade dealing a large amount of damage with the destruction stave skill line. The stamblade's melee abilities exist to provide damage output. The magblade's melee abilities exist to provide utility.

I'm fairly sure the magblade's melee abilities provide the very same damage output (if not more, considering most stamblades run very low dmg rollerblades these days). Not having access to weapon skill line abilities hardly matters there.

I mean, the only weapon skills stamblades really run in open world (duels are a different story) PvP are Rev Slice (can be substituted by Killer's Blade) & Rally/Forward Momentum, the rest is covered by class skills.


Also, there really isn't anything preventing a magblade from running a melee destro/resto build - I run one on my mag DK and it seems to work fine. The only destro staff weapon skill I use on that build is elemental drain.

Still, probably still gonna use DW on my magblade due to set choices.

The person who wrote this post to begin with plays melee magic nightblade. I play it on occasions and I can say there is something preventing people from using it, the ability to weave. Magblade heavily relies on your ability to light weave, there are a lot of times you can't do that outside of duel. Even in a duel it can be troublesome

waitwhat wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

How about remove things from incap to bring it line with Soul?

Bum bum bum!

Comparing Soul Harvest disfavorably to Incap misses the point of Soul Harvest. The strength of soul harvest has been, and always will be, its ultimate generation. There is no "bring it in line with Soul."

Incap isn't a better morph. It's the stamina morph. Incap has always been dodgeable, as any single target ability should be. It misses all the time if the target approaches you on a diagonal vector. Gankers don't get to stun often with incap because the snare from ambush (or stealth) will either already CC the target or grant them immunity if they break free. If you haven't killed the nightblade by the second or third incap, you have a different problem. Even in PvE, Incap is only viable now because of Warmachine.

Soul Harvest was always there to help a magblade (and even a stamblade) generate ultimate to drop on the boss. Soul Harvest never really was a PvP ultimate, apart from slotting it while zerging to build up a bomb faster. Even in PvE it still serves much the same purpose for a magblade DPS: you can't even use Soul Harvest to activate Master Architect reliably, since magplade DPS is ranged.

The two ultimates serve radically different purposes for radically different builds. If you're getting close enough to an enemy in a situation where you're not planning on using an AoE ultimate, it sounds like you would rather be a stamblade instead.

Magblade shouldn't be just more forgiving stamblade with shields. It is truly a different class.

tl;dr: This is another instance of the magicka persecution complex. Bring yourselves into line with stamblades.

So if I use the Moves Concealed Weapon Lotus Fan I should just go stamblade? The class has magic based close range moves a magic based gap closer and a magic based close range ultimate. No I don’t want to be a stamblade.

More forgiving? A light armor build without snare removal in melee combat isn’t exactly what I would call more forgiving. Especially when Healing Ward Siphoning Attacks and Cloak aren’t working properly. Wait maybe the heal that hurts me is more forgiving.

Magblade is a ranged class. The presence of those abilities does not change that paradigm.
1. Lotus Fan is an AoE gap-closer used in preparation for a bomb. It isn't a brawling melee ability.
2. If you're a vampire I wouldn't use Concealed weapon at all. As with Soul Harvest, it's slotted for its movement speed passive.
3. Both of the above are remnant abilities from when the entire nightblade class was magicka based. Ambush and Surprise Attack were changed to stamina morphs as part of the the changes long ago that brought stamblades into existence. Lotus Fan and Conceal Weapon are the leftover magicka alternatives from a change that caused quite the uproar when it came about. The presence of those abilities doesn't justify making the magblade as adept at close range combat as a stamblade, as they are used in ways radically different from their counterparts, with a very different intended purpose.

Yes more forgiving. You have vastly more recovery and defensive options as a magblade than you would as a stamblade.
1. You're not supposed to be in melee combat, so you shouldn't need snare removal as much.
2. You do have snare removal: It's called stamina. Unlike a stamblade, you don't need to rely on both resource pools to cast abilities, so there's nothing else for you to spend stamina on.
3. Healing Ward, Siphoning Attacks, and Cloak do work properly, they just aren't as OP as everyone would like them to be. Luckily the magblade has enough resource return to use them far more often than a stamblade ever could.
4. You also have Swallow Soul, Refreshing Path, Sap Essence, and Soul Tether. The Magblade class is brimming with HoTs.
4. Since you're running Healing Ward, you're running a resto stave, which means you also get to run Mutagen or Healing Springs. Slotted with Swallow Soul for the Minor Mending, those two abilities are powerful, low cost heals, and Mutagen will even remove a snare for you. Neither Rally nor Vigor are as powerful.

EDIT: Lets also not forget HARNESS MAGIC/DAMPEN MAGIC. As a light armor build, you get access to those powerful shields as well, in addition to Healing Ward. You can't Harness=>Harden like a magSorc, but then again magSorcs don't have cloak do they?

"1. You're not supposed to be in melee combat, so you shouldn't need snare removal as much."

Snare removals let you maintain distance between your opponent, the fact that magblade doesn't have one means it has to play in melee range. You'd know this if you played magblade.

"2. You do have snare removal: It's called stamina. Unlike a stamblade, you don't need to rely on both resource pools to cast abilities, so there's nothing else for you to spend stamina on"

CC break? Block?

waitwhat wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

Just fix the stun then? You're describing a bug and using it as a reason for a nerf.

Although, I would definitely get behind removing the stun and increasing the empower to 8 seconds for example. Would really help Stamblade in PvE.

No even with a fixed stun incap is too powerful. I wrote it down in another post about incap why a stun on a high damage ability is a stupid idea.
Stamnb doesn't need more buffs not a single bit, at least not in pvp. PvE is a completely different story but an increase to the bursty nature of stamnb isn't something this game needs, a way of more sustained damage would be fine

Its not an ability it’s an ULTIMATE. Like to compete with meteor the 20k + AOE tooltip AOE stun with a DOT with it that generates more Ultimate than Soul Harvest with Range. Of course it costs more but with all that extra for a little more than double the cost (on Sorc)

What we are talking about is having something else added to Soul harvest on a melee MNB/Ranged MNB to compete with incap which got soul harvest nerfed a few times already. No point to slot this over incap in pvp anymore to fight with.

It’s ok I’ll just continue to Soul assault people from stealth until I can get a working shadow image Siphoning strikes and healing ward again.

If you think that meteor is the better ult then ask yourself one question, why do people don't use meteor on their nbs maybe because 20% damage taken and major defile is much better than a crappy ground dot?

People do, though. Meteor+Fear+Merciless has been a common magic NB combo since launch

Incap+ will is much more devastating. The defile+ 20% extra damage are much better than some more damage on meteor

Incap

BohnT wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

Just fix the stun then? You're describing a bug and using it as a reason for a nerf.

Although, I would definitely get behind removing the stun and increasing the empower to 8 seconds for example. Would really help Stamblade in PvE.

No even with a fixed stun incap is too powerful. I wrote it down in another post about incap why a stun on a high damage ability is a stupid idea.
Stamnb doesn't need more buffs not a single bit, at least not in pvp. PvE is a completely different story but an increase to the bursty nature of stamnb isn't something this game needs, a way of more sustained damage would be fine

Its not an ability it’s an ULTIMATE. Like to compete with meteor the 20k + AOE tooltip AOE stun with a DOT with it that generates more Ultimate than Soul Harvest with Range. Of course it costs more but with all that extra for a little more than double the cost (on Sorc)

What we are talking about is having something else added to Soul harvest on a melee MNB/Ranged MNB to compete with incap which got soul harvest nerfed a few times already. No point to slot this over incap in pvp anymore to fight with.

It’s ok I’ll just continue to Soul assault people from stealth until I can get a working shadow image Siphoning strikes and healing ward again.

If you think that meteor is the better ult then ask yourself one question, why do people don't use meteor on their nbs maybe because 20% damage taken and major defile is much better than a crappy ground dot?

People do use meteor on their NBs, even on their stamblades, IN PLACE OF INCAP.

Check out the spoiler under "Bow Bar | Support Damage & Buffs" where one of the best nightblades around says: "Ultimate Option 2 (High AOE) Shooting Star (morph of Meteor | Mage's Guild skill line) - An ultimate that won't scale as well as others in terms of raw damage, it still boasts the most AoE damage potential out of Stamina's available ultimates. Paired with Soul Harvest on your main bar and the ultimate return for hitting targets, you can toss out Shooting Stars like candy."

Added PvP bonus: Shooting Star is ranged and an AoE knockback with passive bonuses to max magicka, magicka recovery, and the damage of the next attack. In short, massively viable, even preferable option to Soul Harvest.

That's a PvE nightblade build.

If a stam Nightbade build wants to drop Meteor on me, by all means let them. Meteor is perhaps the easiest ultimate to counter in the game, and one dropped by a properly build sorcerer, which will hit harder, isn't dificult to deal with at all (lag permitting).

I do sort of agree with the OP's premise that an ultimate used for just passive reasons is kind of silly and a waste; if I were magicka NB, I'd probably be jealous of Incap. So, I do think ZoS should look to make some changes.

After, of course, they do something with the same cost turd known as Empowering Sweep.

It's still a relevant counter to Bohn's point regarding slotting Meteor, even if it's a PvE build. Meteor provides benefits that can be more useful that those of Incap, even more so for a magblade in PvP, since it will hit as hard as that of a sorc.

Meteor isn't the easiest ultimate to counter in the game: It's a ranged AoE with an AoE knockback and a tiny dodge window. The easiest ultimate for a sorc to counteract would be Incap, as the sorc has enough mobility to escape (while stunning the stamblade), and shields aren't affected by major defile, while the sorc can easily run Efficient Purge for extra recovery and a cleanse.

Put meteor on a magblade, and then you may have something to worry about, as it keeps the magblade well out of range of sorc DoTs, can easily be cast from crouch, will stun you if you aren't blocking, and will empower the magblade's ranged execute, Impale. Meteor is preferable to Soul Harvest as a damage dealing ultimate for a magblade, and that is neither a problem nor is it justification for changing Soul Harvest or Incap.

As for the premise, slotting abilities for just passives is neither silly nor a waste. It's a core mechanic of build construction to sacrifice something in exchange for a strategic benefit. With Soul Harvest, you sacrifice a damage slot for a strategic gain in ultimate generation. That setup won't perform well in every scenario, which is precisely the point. Tanks keep Absorb Magic slotted when not facing spell projectiles because of the 8% reduced block cost. Magsorcs slot Inner Light in PvE for the crit and max magicka bonuses. Many builds slot Radiant Magelight not to go chase down gankers but to prevent the stun from stealth. Across various tactical spaces within the system, we see the principle of slotting abilities solely for passives applied without question. Why should it only be called into question here and now?

I need some of whatever you are smoking

Hollery wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

@waitwhat

I have never seen a stamblade use meteor, most the time they use bow ult

Me neither.

I tried a build utilizing Skoria once (with Ambush+Incap timed with the proc), but I don't think those meteors count

waitwhat wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

Just fix the stun then? You're describing a bug and using it as a reason for a nerf.

Although, I would definitely get behind removing the stun and increasing the empower to 8 seconds for example. Would really help Stamblade in PvE.

No even with a fixed stun incap is too powerful. I wrote it down in another post about incap why a stun on a high damage ability is a stupid idea.
Stamnb doesn't need more buffs not a single bit, at least not in pvp. PvE is a completely different story but an increase to the bursty nature of stamnb isn't something this game needs, a way of more sustained damage would be fine

Meteor and Dawnbreaker are both high damage and stun on hit, incap isn't an outlier

Add Dragon Leap and Soul Tether to this category as well.

Oh yeah, Soul Tether bombs are a thing.

You can use Tether against a single target too.

Basicly magblade has the same melee capabilities as stamblade when you think about it, except I'd swap useless dodge rolling for Healing Ward spam (and permacloaking) any day...

Lotus Fan=Ambush/Crit Rush
Concealed Weapon=Surprise Attack
Tether=Incap

That's really the core of it.


Next patch (provided there's no big nerfs to a certain set) melee magblade will be very viable based on my PTS testing.

The magblade doesn't have the same melee capabilities as a stamblade because the builds are more than just their class abilities alone. You have to look at the rest of the toolkits each has to determine how their viability will play out.

You won't have a magblade dealing a lot of damage with the two handed skill line or the dual wield skill line, just as you won't have a stamblade dealing a large amount of damage with the destruction stave skill line. The stamblade's melee abilities exist to provide damage output. The magblade's melee abilities exist to provide utility.

I'm fairly sure the magblade's melee abilities provide the very same damage output (if not more, considering most stamblades run very low dmg rollerblades these days). Not having access to weapon skill line abilities hardly matters there.

I mean, the only weapon skills stamblades really run in open world (duels are a different story) PvP are Rev Slice (can be substituted by Killer's Blade) & Rally/Forward Momentum, the rest is covered by class skills.


Also, there really isn't anything preventing a magblade from running a melee destro/resto build - I run one on my mag DK and it seems to work fine. The only destro staff weapon skill I use on that build is elemental drain.

Still, probably still gonna use DW on my magblade due to set choices.

The person who wrote this post to begin with plays melee magic nightblade. I play it on occasions and I can say there is something preventing people from using it, the ability to weave. Magblade heavily relies on your ability to light weave, there are a lot of times you can't do that outside of duel. Even in a duel it can be troublesome

It is of course possible to play a melee magblade, but as said here and previously, there is a performance deficit in doing so. The question then is whether or not that performance deficit is sensible and justified.

Soul Harvest has an additional effect it builds ultimate and is fine as is. Even dodgeable without a stun it is very effective, it is not hard to use fear to land it. Stam morph is more beneficial for PVEPVP and Mag morph is more beneficial for PVPPVE, there is nothing wrong with that. Being able to be dodged isn't going to kill Soul Harvest.

BohnT wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

None of the death stroke morphs need a buff, incap needs it's stun removed.
Incap is completely overperfoming and arguably the best single target ult in the game, as you said the cc combined with high damage, 20% damage increase and major defile + passives.
On top the stun on incap is broken like many others but incap is the one you can't break free of the most.
I play both stamnb and meele magnb and ofc I'm using incap on both of them. When i count the times an enemy couldn't break free from my incap I always get to ~66% of the times when I'm using incap. People get pinned on the floor and can't react "fast" enough to break free and defend themselves (i mean 2 gcd most of the time). With how much damage the first burst does and how fast nbs can dish out more damage 90% of all builds are dead because of the bugged stun.
This has to end even without the stun incap and nbs are still one of the most powerful classes in the game and are nowhere near "dead" if people start bringing up that reaction

Just fix the stun then? You're describing a bug and using it as a reason for a nerf.

Although, I would definitely get behind removing the stun and increasing the empower to 8 seconds for example. Would really help Stamblade in PvE.

No even with a fixed stun incap is too powerful. I wrote it down in another post about incap why a stun on a high damage ability is a stupid idea.
Stamnb doesn't need more buffs not a single bit, at least not in pvp. PvE is a completely different story but an increase to the bursty nature of stamnb isn't something this game needs, a way of more sustained damage would be fine

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that your reasoning in that first post was quite faulty since you were essentially using a bug to justify the need for a nerf. I agree with the fact that Incap is slightly over the top and I agree that the stun isn't necessarily the best morph option for Incap.

I am still really wishing that the empower on Incap was increased to 8 seconds and the stun was removed. That way, it would decrease the burst potential of the skill in PvP but increase its overall utility in PvE.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Soul Harvest has an additional effect it builds ultimate and is fine as is. Even dodgeable without a stun it is very effective, it is not hard to use fear to land it. Stam morph is more beneficial for PVE and Mag morph is more beneficial for PVP, there is nothing wrong with that. Being able to be dodged isn't going to kill Soul Harvest.

it's the other way around. incap is better for PvP Harvest is better for PvE and that's only because it builds ult it's not the ult itself.

Correct, I accidentally swapped the PVE and PVP, but I think that was fairly obvious to everyone.

Lucky28 wrote: »

Harvest does need a buff if they're making it dodgeable. most magblades use incap over harvest as is before making it dodgeable. making it dodgeable will be very bad for Soul harvest.

No it won't be very bad, that is unless you are a very bad player. It will marginally change the way you use it.

lol i actually rarely used Soul harvest in PvE it's not really needed.but soul harvest is an underwhelming ult in every respect to incap.

i'll say this again: the only reason i used Harvest over incap for a while was because it was undodgeable. make it dodgeable and not give it anything to compensate and you remove it from competitive play.

Not sure if that was already mentioned, but crit multiplier is the same for all your abilities regardless of what resource they consume, and having higher max magicka already makes your incap (and any other ult) use spell crit. @NightbladeMechanics

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

I use incap on a magblade for pvp, if ambush hadn't gone stamina I'd have kept on using soul harvest. Losing 2k damage but getting a good cc is a winner to me. Honestly I didn't realise soul harvest was undodgeable, even if it wasn't I still wouldn't use it.....maybe incap wouldn't be so dodgeable if some players didn't have a "DODGE NOW" floating on their screen.

You have a good CC without Incap, one of if not the best CC in the game in Mass Hysteria.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

I use incap on a magblade for pvp, if ambush hadn't gone stamina I'd have kept on using soul harvest. Losing 2k damage but getting a good cc is a winner to me. Honestly I didn't realise soul harvest was undodgeable, even if it wasn't I still wouldn't use it.....maybe incap wouldn't be so dodgeable if some players didn't have a "DODGE NOW" floating on their screen.

You have a good CC without Incap, one of if not the best CC in the game in Mass Hysteria.

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Not sure if that was already mentioned, but crit multiplier is the same for all your abilities regardless of what resource they consume, and having higher max magicka already makes your incap (and any other ult) use spell crit. @NightbladeMechanics

That's a negative, sir. Precise Strikes and elfborn affect phys/mag abilities regardless of resource used. A stam NB is going to have more.crit dmg on incap than a magblade. Youre right about the spell crit part tho.
And then ofc penetration, if ur light that's a big chunk incap doesnt benefit from.
Ill say just make certain ultis deal phys/mag dmg based on your higher wpd/spd.

@Firstmep I should have prob specified what i was talking about, but i was talking about things like minor/major force, nb passives and such, cause making incap scale with elfborn would be too weird and clunky anyway.