The Brass Soldier - WARNING You may become "Nervous"!

paulsimonps · November 2017

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1

"Now critical resistance works very differently from the other forms of resistance. What it does is it lowers the enemy players critical hit damage modifier. A characters base modifier is 1.5 which means that if you land a critical hit then you deal 50% more damage. There are ways to improve this, such as minor and major force or the Champion point system. What we are gonna be looking at of course is how we can reduce that modifier. This one is very special cause unlike mitigation that is a multiplicative reduction this one is actually a subtractive one. This is the formula:

CRITICAL MODIFIER=1.5+(Critical Damage Buff #1/100)+(Critical Damage Buff #2/100)+(etc etc)-(Critical Resistance/68/100)

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1.5+(Critical Damage Buff #1/100)+(Critical Damage Buff #2/100)+(etc etc)-(Critical Resistance/68/100))

If a player has base critical modifier and they hit an enemy player that has 100 points into Resistant then their modifier will be affected like this:

1.5-(1650/68/100)=1.5-0.24264705882~1.5-0.24=1.26

Finding out what the % per resistance was was not easy but from my testing I have found that it is 68(if someone else has a different number I would love to see it.). This means that 100 points into Resistant gives you ~24% critical hit resistance. The total amount of critical hit resistance possible is7518 or 110%. I now want to make something perfectly clear, THERE IS NO CRITICAL RESISTANCE HARD CAP! Ok? Ok! There isn't even enough critical resistance available to justify having it. Max resistance is 110% and highest possible critical damage modifier is 115%."

Waffennacht · November 2017

This is why I lurb @paulsimonps

zParallaxz · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

According to @paulsimonps thread, critical damage taken is calculated (with buff fluff removed) is 1.5-(critical resistance/68/100)

So essentially what I posted before the (critical resistance/68/100) is a fancy way of saying approximately 68 impen = 1%

Or it's a really fancy way of saying 50% - your impen number/68

Or what I said earlier

Edit: it bothers me when people use the 1.5 etc to describe critical damage. Not everyone knows that you've simplified +50% into a multiplicative form. You can so easily say +50% and everyone knows exactly what you mean. Using the multiplicative simplified form seems like purposely using mathmatically arcane lingo to purposely confuse people so they are more impressed.

Yeah dude I saw the cp, you know you don’t need points into master at arms on stamplar right?

MurderMostFoul · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

According to @paulsimonps thread, critical damage taken is calculated (with buff fluff removed) is 1.5-(critical resistance/68/100)

So essentially what I posted before the (critical resistance/68/100) is a fancy way of saying approximately 68 impen = 1%

Or it's a really fancy way of saying 50% - your impen number/68

Or what I said earlier

Edit: it bothers me when people use the 1.5 etc to describe critical damage. Not everyone knows that you've simplified +50% into a multiplicative form. You can so easily say +50% and everyone knows exactly what you mean. Using the multiplicative simplified form seems like purposely using mathmatically arcane lingo to purposely confuse people so they are more impressed.

Using percents:

Critical hits normally do 150% damage. If your impen gives you 30% critical resistance, the net critical damage you take is 120%. So the effective damage reduction from your impen on critical hits is 20%, not 30%:

(150% - 30%)/150% = 80%

If the opponent has 50% crit chance, your overall damage reduction is roughly 10%. I only point this out because I think it is an important consideration for those trying to compare impregnable to Brass. Impen is not giving as much damage reduction as some prior post have suggested.

Firstmep · November 2017

zParallaxz wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

According to @paulsimonps thread, critical damage taken is calculated (with buff fluff removed) is 1.5-(critical resistance/68/100)

So essentially what I posted before the (critical resistance/68/100) is a fancy way of saying approximately 68 impen = 1%

Or it's a really fancy way of saying 50% - your impen number/68

Or what I said earlier

Edit: it bothers me when people use the 1.5 etc to describe critical damage. Not everyone knows that you've simplified +50% into a multiplicative form. You can so easily say +50% and everyone knows exactly what you mean. Using the multiplicative simplified form seems like purposely using mathmatically arcane lingo to purposely confuse people so they are more impressed.

Yeah dude I saw the cp, you know you don’t need points into master at arms on stamplar right?

Yeah i mean master at arms only increases the damage of your light /heavy attacks, the initial hit of DBoS, Burning Light and Javelin. Totally no reason to have points in there. /Sarcasm

Thogard · November 2017

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

According to @paulsimonps thread, critical damage taken is calculated (with buff fluff removed) is 1.5-(critical resistance/68/100)

So essentially what I posted before the (critical resistance/68/100) is a fancy way of saying approximately 68 impen = 1%

Or it's a really fancy way of saying 50% - your impen number/68

Or what I said earlier

Edit: it bothers me when people use the 1.5 etc to describe critical damage. Not everyone knows that you've simplified +50% into a multiplicative form. You can so easily say +50% and everyone knows exactly what you mean. Using the multiplicative simplified form seems like purposely using mathmatically arcane lingo to purposely confuse people so they are more impressed.

Using percents:

Critical hits normally do 150% damage. If your impen gives you 30% critical resistance, the net critical damage you take is 120%. So the effective damage reduction from your impen on critical hits is 20%, not 30%:

(150% - 30%)/150% = 80%

If the opponent has 50% crit chance, your overall damage reduction is roughly 10%. I only point this out because I think it is an important consideration for those trying to compare impregnable to Brass. Impen is not giving as much damage reduction as some prior post have suggested.

30% critical resistance is not a “thing”

You’re making up a formula out of thin air in order to disprove what is, for all intents and purposes, an oversimplification meant to make the concept easier to understand, and then you manage to mathematically contradict your own made up formula. Of course they aren’t actually getting 30% crit resistance because the actual amount of crit resistance they get (as a function of their attacker’s total dmg) will be completely dependent on how much crit dmg multipliers the attacker has.

Crit dmg multipliers are additive
Crit resistance is subtractive

Using percentages at any stage of the calculation except the very end messes this up. To say that they get “30% crit resistance but it is 30% of 150%” really begs the question of where you got that 30% from, and what it’s a percentage of. If you’re going to make up percentages, then why wouldn’t it be a percent of the whole? (To illustrate, if someone has an amount of critical resistance that would mitigate 30% of player As dmg, and player B has the same build as player A but has minor force, then that person would be mitigating less than 30% of player B’s damage. So using percentages makes no sense... but if you are going to use them, you wouldn’t just randomly divide them by the crit dmg multipliers again....

Sorry for rambling, it’s just rare that I see something so wrong In so many different ways. I’m usually not this mean I promise.

Edit: ok I see what you did here. You are subtracting your made up percentages from the 1.5 multiplier when you should be multiplying them by 1-%. If you create a percent by dividing a fraction by 100, you can’t just back out of your new percent by subtracting.. you have to multiply.

If someone’s critical resistance is equal to 30% against a specific player then they take 30% less total damage from critical hits from that specific player. End of discussion.

MurderMostFoul · November 2017

Thogard wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

According to @paulsimonps thread, critical damage taken is calculated (with buff fluff removed) is 1.5-(critical resistance/68/100)

So essentially what I posted before the (critical resistance/68/100) is a fancy way of saying approximately 68 impen = 1%

Or it's a really fancy way of saying 50% - your impen number/68

Or what I said earlier

Edit: it bothers me when people use the 1.5 etc to describe critical damage. Not everyone knows that you've simplified +50% into a multiplicative form. You can so easily say +50% and everyone knows exactly what you mean. Using the multiplicative simplified form seems like purposely using mathmatically arcane lingo to purposely confuse people so they are more impressed.

Using percents:

Critical hits normally do 150% damage. If your impen gives you 30% critical resistance, the net critical damage you take is 120%. So the effective damage reduction from your impen on critical hits is 20%, not 30%:

(150% - 30%)/150% = 80%

If the opponent has 50% crit chance, your overall damage reduction is roughly 10%. I only point this out because I think it is an important consideration for those trying to compare impregnable to Brass. Impen is not giving as much damage reduction as some prior post have suggested.

30% critical resistance is not a “thing”

You’re making up a formula out of thin air in order to disprove what is, for all intents and purposes, an oversimplification meant to make the concept easier to understand, and then you manage to mathematically contradict your own made up formula. Of course they aren’t actually getting 30% crit resistance because the actual amount of crit resistance they get (as a function of their attacker’s total dmg) will be completely dependent on how much crit dmg multipliers the attacker has.

Crit dmg multipliers are additive
Crit resistance is subtractive

Using percentages at any stage of the calculation except the very end messes this up. To say that they get “30% crit resistance but it is 30% of 150%” really begs the question of where you got that 30% from, and what it’s a percentage of. If you’re going to make up percentages, then why wouldn’t it be a percent of the whole? (To illustrate, if someone has an amount of critical resistance that would mitigate 30% of player As dmg, and player B has the same build as player A but has minor force, then that person would be mitigating less than 30% of player B’s damage. So using percentages makes no sense... but if you are going to use them, you wouldn’t just randomly divide them by the crit dmg multipliers again....

Sorry for rambling, it’s just rare that I see something so wrong In so many different ways. I’m usually not this mean I promise.

All of the percents I used were purely illustrative. They are reasonable values that may be encountered with a given opponent and one's own build. The only reason why I used percentages was because there was a complaint about not using them, my first post about this point used the multiplicative factors.

All that aside, my math correctly demonstrates that the following equation DOES NOT calculate the rough effective damage reduction provided by impenetrable:

(Crit damage multiplier reduction from impen) x (opponent crit chance)

That equation has been used a few times in this thread and it is incorrect.

Thogard · November 2017

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

According to @paulsimonps thread, critical damage taken is calculated (with buff fluff removed) is 1.5-(critical resistance/68/100)

So essentially what I posted before the (critical resistance/68/100) is a fancy way of saying approximately 68 impen = 1%

Or it's a really fancy way of saying 50% - your impen number/68

Or what I said earlier

Edit: it bothers me when people use the 1.5 etc to describe critical damage. Not everyone knows that you've simplified +50% into a multiplicative form. You can so easily say +50% and everyone knows exactly what you mean. Using the multiplicative simplified form seems like purposely using mathmatically arcane lingo to purposely confuse people so they are more impressed.

Using percents:

Critical hits normally do 150% damage. If your impen gives you 30% critical resistance, the net critical damage you take is 120%. So the effective damage reduction from your impen on critical hits is 20%, not 30%:

(150% - 30%)/150% = 80%

If the opponent has 50% crit chance, your overall damage reduction is roughly 10%. I only point this out because I think it is an important consideration for those trying to compare impregnable to Brass. Impen is not giving as much damage reduction as some prior post have suggested.

30% critical resistance is not a “thing”

You’re making up a formula out of thin air in order to disprove what is, for all intents and purposes, an oversimplification meant to make the concept easier to understand, and then you manage to mathematically contradict your own made up formula. Of course they aren’t actually getting 30% crit resistance because the actual amount of crit resistance they get (as a function of their attacker’s total dmg) will be completely dependent on how much crit dmg multipliers the attacker has.

Crit dmg multipliers are additive
Crit resistance is subtractive

Using percentages at any stage of the calculation except the very end messes this up. To say that they get “30% crit resistance but it is 30% of 150%” really begs the question of where you got that 30% from, and what it’s a percentage of. If you’re going to make up percentages, then why wouldn’t it be a percent of the whole? (To illustrate, if someone has an amount of critical resistance that would mitigate 30% of player As dmg, and player B has the same build as player A but has minor force, then that person would be mitigating less than 30% of player B’s damage. So using percentages makes no sense... but if you are going to use them, you wouldn’t just randomly divide them by the crit dmg multipliers again....

Sorry for rambling, it’s just rare that I see something so wrong In so many different ways. I’m usually not this mean I promise.

All of the percents I used were purely illustrative. They are reasonable values that may be encountered with a given opponent and one's own build. The only reason why I used percentages was because there was a complaint about not using them, my first post about this point used the multiplicative factors.

All that aside, my math correctly demonstrates that the following equation DOES NOT calculate the rough effective damage reduction provided by impenetrable:

(Crit damage multiplier reduction from impen) x (opponent crit chance)

That equation has been used a few times in this thread and it is incorrect.

Dude, help me help you.

Why does the “crit dmg multiplier reduction from impen” not show us what the “effective damage reduction provided by impenetrable” is?

Are you saying that if someone’s impen reduces an opponents crit dmg multiplier by 25%, then their total damage won’t be reduced by 25%?

It’s all still 25%... fractions are multiplicative...

I understand what you’re trying to argue.. that 150 - 25% isn’t the same as 100 - 25% ... but that isn’t how percentages work... in that case, what would that 25% be a percentage of? It’d have to be Non-crit dmg.. but why are you using 25% of non crit dmg anywhere in your formula?

It’s either 150 - 37.5 or 100 - 25

MurderMostFoul · November 2017

Thogard wrote: »

Dude, help me help you.

Why does the “crit dmg multiplier reduction from impen” not show us what the “effective damage reduction provided by impenetrable” is?

Are you saying that if someone’s impen reduces an opponents crit dmg multiplier by 25%, then their total damage won’t be reduced by 25%?

It’s all still 25%... fractions are multiplicative...

I understand what you’re trying to argue.. that 150 - 25% isn’t the same as 100 - 25% ... but that isn’t how percentages work... in that case, what would that 25% be a percentage of? It’d have to be Non-crit dmg.. but why are you using 25% of non crit dmg anywhere in your formula?

It’s either 150 - 37.5 or 100 - 25

Although I think you may have an issue with my semantics with percents versus factors, my point is fairly simple. All I'm doing is pointing out a misconception in this thread, reflected below:

Waffennacht wrote: »

It should actually be less complicated than it sounds.

Just starting from base numbers, because everyone has 50% crit damage minimum and Impregnable gives approximately 35% crit damage Reduction (if my numbers are correct) then the only variable becomes your Opponent's critical chance.

That usually ranges from 30%-70%. Meaning you'll get 35% damage Reduction X% of the time. Say your Opponent's crit chance is 70% you'll get an average long run value of 24.5% damage Reduction. If your opponent has 40% crit chance you get a real long run average of 14% DMG Reduction.

The overall "damage reduction" numbers from impen arrived at above are not correct as they use the wrong formula:

impen_crit_damage_multiplier_reduction x opponent_crit_chance

The correct formula for the crit damage reduction factor from impen is:

1 - (opponent_crit_dmg_multiplier - impen_crit_dmg_multiplier_reduction)/opponent_crit_dmg_multiplier

Sticking to factors, if your impen reduces your opponent's crit damage multiplier by 0.25, that does not equate to a crit damage taken mitigation factor of 0.25. It equates to a crit damage mitigation factor of:

1 - (opponent_crit_dmg_multiplier - 0.25)/opponent_crit_dmg_multiplier

If your opponent's crit dmg multiplier is 1.5, your crit damage taken mitigation factor is 0.1666667, not 0.25 as other posts have suggested. In terms of percentages, if your opponent does 150% damage on a crit, but your impen subtracts 25%, netting 125%, you are mitigating 16.666667% of the critical damage, not 25% of the critical damage. (Again, please be aware of potential semantic confusion. When I say "subtracts 25%," I mean just that (150%-25% = 125%). I know this can be confusing because subtract 25% can mean multiply by 0.75, but I am not using it in that way here and trying to be a explicit as possible about it.)

Lexxypwns · November 2017

First off, nobody runs 1.5 CHD modifier, get that trash number out the window. ALL templars and NBs are natively at 1.6 and EVERY offensive build adds to either precise strikes or elfborn.

A much more realistic number to start from is 1.65 or even 1.7.

@MurderMostFoul what you've done here is construct a strawman to try to diminish the value of crit resistance. In reality its exactly as valuable as we've all stated and perhaps more when you consider spike damage is what usually kills and the easiest way to push spike damage is crits.

Gan Xing · November 2017

I"m gonna have to go with @Lexxypwns and @Waffennacht on this one. They've been active in the forums significantly more than either of us, and probably in the game as well. I'm sure they know what they are talking about.

paulsimonps · November 2017

Want to quickly point out that you can not make critical hits deal less damage than base damage. Aka, if you have 60% resistance and someone only has 50% crit modifier, aka the base, modifier of 1.5 then the critical hit will still do a full 100% of the base damage. So I really do not like the way that @MurderMostFoul was calculating it with the (150-30)/150=0.8=80% (50-30)/50=0.4 or 40% would be more accurate which means you effectively took away 60% of the critical hits extra damage.

Waffennacht · November 2017

I'm confused

Thogard · November 2017

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Dude, help me help you.

Why does the “crit dmg multiplier reduction from impen” not show us what the “effective damage reduction provided by impenetrable” is?

Are you saying that if someone’s impen reduces an opponents crit dmg multiplier by 25%, then their total damage won’t be reduced by 25%?

It’s all still 25%... fractions are multiplicative...

I understand what you’re trying to argue.. that 150 - 25% isn’t the same as 100 - 25% ... but that isn’t how percentages work... in that case, what would that 25% be a percentage of? It’d have to be Non-crit dmg.. but why are you using 25% of non crit dmg anywhere in your formula?

It’s either 150 - 37.5 or 100 - 25

Although I think you may have an issue with my semantics with percents versus factors, my point is fairly simple. All I'm doing is pointing out a misconception in this thread, reflected below:

Waffennacht wrote: »

It should actually be less complicated than it sounds.

Just starting from base numbers, because everyone has 50% crit damage minimum and Impregnable gives approximately 35% crit damage Reduction (if my numbers are correct) then the only variable becomes your Opponent's critical chance.

That usually ranges from 30%-70%. Meaning you'll get 35% damage Reduction X% of the time. Say your Opponent's crit chance is 70% you'll get an average long run value of 24.5% damage Reduction. If your opponent has 40% crit chance you get a real long run average of 14% DMG Reduction.

The overall "damage reduction" numbers from impen arrived at above are not correct as they use the wrong formula:

impen_crit_damage_multiplier_reduction x opponent_crit_chance

The correct formula for the crit damage reduction factor from impen is:

1 - (opponent_crit_dmg_multiplier - impen_crit_dmg_multiplier_reduction)/opponent_crit_dmg_multiplier

Sticking to factors, if your impen reduces your opponent's crit damage multiplier by 0.25, that does not equate to a crit damage taken mitigation factor of 0.25. It equates to a crit damage mitigation factor of:

1 - (opponent_crit_dmg_multiplier - 0.25)/opponent_crit_dmg_multiplier

If your opponent's crit dmg multiplier is 1.5, your crit damage taken mitigation factor is 0.1666667, not 0.25 as other posts have suggested. In terms of percentages, if your opponent does 150% damage on a crit, but your impen subtracts 25%, netting 125%, you are mitigating 16.666667% of the critical damage, not 25% of the critical damage. (Again, please be aware of potential semantic confusion. When I say "subtracts 25%," I mean just that (150%-25% = 125%). I know this can be confusing because subtract 25% can mean multiply by 0.75, but I am not using it in that way here and trying to be a explicit as possible about it.)

I understand what you’re saying as well as the distinction you’re making between the “subtractive” crit resist multiplier and the analytical (not used in any part of the calculation) “percentage of total damage reduced”

I just don’t think that you’re correctly interpreting what waffle necht was saying and that you’re mixing up those two separate numbers. He was just trying to oversimplify things, and while your point would have been valid if he was referring to the subtractive multiplier, I think he was actually referring to the percentage of total damage reduced.

MurderMostFoul · November 2017

@Lexxypwns I am genuinely confused about the offense that is taken from my post. All I am doing is shedding some light on the comparison between Impregnable and Brass. Lets use your 1.7 number and assume you are running all impen on your gear.

As you have said, the set bonuses form Brass will give you an additional 12.25% damage reduction from critical hits (and normal hits). The 2500 critical resistance from Impregnable will decrease your opponent's crit multiplier by 0.379. Thus, the additional crit damage reduction it provides with a base 1.7 crit damage multiplier is:

1 - (1.7 - 0.379)/1.7 ~ 0.223

Thus, you take about an additional 22.3% less damage from crits with Impregnable. That is the number that needs to be compared with 12.25% additional damage reduction to everything (crits and normal hits) provided by Brass.

Waffennacht · November 2017

@paulsimonps help me

68 impen reduces crit damage by 1% yes or no?

Thogard · November 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Want to quickly point out that you can not make critical hits deal less damage than base damage. Aka, if you have 60% resistance and someone only has 50% crit modifier, aka the base, modifier of 1.5 then the critical hit will still do a full 100% of the base damage. So I really do not like the way that @MurderMostFoul was calculating it with the (150-30)/150=0.8=80% (50-30)/50=0.4 or 40% would be more accurate which means you effectively took away 60% of the critical hits extra damage.

Yeah but that’s really just semantics and will further confuse people. My head is already hurting trying to juggle all these separate definitions of “crit resistance” lol.

I think the biggest problem with this calculation is that the percent of resistance is meaningless unless we know exactly what kind of crit dmg modifiers the opponent has.... which means that, for theorycradting purposes you can’t say things like “his build has 40% crit resist” .. there’s just no way to know that. Hell, if the enemy uses beast trap mid fight your crit resist % would change.

IMO it’s easier to just talk about it in terms of how much of the overall damage was mitigated by the resist. Or just stick to hard numbers. Impreg + impen = 3750 crit resist. = 0.625 subtracted from crit dmg multiplier. Everything past that is a variable based on opponenT’s crit dmg bonus.

Thogard · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

@paulsimonps help me

68 impen reduces crit damage by 1% yes or no?

1% of what? There are too many variables to make a blanket statement like this. We have to know the opponents crit dmg bonus.

And is it 1% gross dmg or 1% marginal dmg?

And is crit dmg all the dmg from a crit, or just the dmg over the amount of a regular hit?

Percentages really don’t work with this equation unless we are trying to oversimplify.

MurderMostFoul · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

@paulsimonps help me

68 impen reduces crit damage by 1% yes or no?

You might be right, that would change it to:

1 - (1.7 - 0.367)/1.7 ~ 0.216

With 68 per 1% (i was using a old number, 66), Impregnable adds 21.6% mitigation to crits from an opponent with a base multiplier of 1.7, versus the 12.25% to crits and everything else from Brass.

Waffennacht · November 2017

Thogard wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@paulsimonps help me

68 impen reduces crit damage by 1% yes or no?

1% of what? There are too many variables to make a blanket statement like this. We have to know the opponents crit dmg bonus.

And is it 1% gross dmg or 1% marginal dmg?

And is crit dmg all the dmg from a crit, or just the dmg over the amount of a regular hit?

Percentages really don’t work with this equation unless we are trying to oversimplify.

I meant to ask 68 impen = 1% or opponents critical damage reduced by 1%

MurderMostFoul · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@paulsimonps help me

68 impen reduces crit damage by 1% yes or no?

1% of what? There are too many variables to make a blanket statement like this. We have to know the opponents crit dmg bonus.

And is it 1% gross dmg or 1% marginal dmg?

And is crit dmg all the dmg from a crit, or just the dmg over the amount of a regular hit?

Percentages really don’t work with this equation unless we are trying to oversimplify.

I meant to ask 68 impen = 1% or opponents critical damage reduced by 1%

AKA, 68 impen = -0.01 to critical damage multiplier

edit: somehow 66 snuck in there

paulsimonps · November 2017

The stat Critical Resistance lowers the enemies critical modifier by 1% per every 68 Critical Resistance. Is that clear enough?

I think people are really using the term Critical Resistance wrong. Critical Resistance in this instance is a stat that is always known and a constant, it won't change, unless you get Transmutation proc'ed on you. So btw, can I get a quick run down of what it is people are arguing about? Impreg vs Fortified?

Thogard · November 2017

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I am genuinely confused about the offense that is taken from my post. All I am doing is shedding some light on the comparison between Impregnable and Brass. Lets use your 1.7 number and assume you are running all impen on your gear.

As you have said, the set bonuses form Brass will give you an additional 12.25% damage reduction from critical hits (and normal hits). The 2500 critical resistance from Impregnable will decrease your opponent's crit multiplier by 0.379. Thus, the additional crit damage reduction it provides with a base 1.7 crit damage multiplier is:

1 - (1.7 - 0.379)/1.7 ~ 0.223

Thus, you take about an additional 22.3% less damage from crits with Impregnable. That is the number that needs to be compared with 12.25% additional damage reduction to everything (crits and normal hits) provided by Brass.

Gotta keep things equal.

Regular build full impen (1750 crit resist) against opponent with 20% bonus crit dmg
1.7 - .265 = 1.435. A 1000 delve dmg crit would hit for 844

Same situation but add impreg (4250 crit resist)
1.7 - .644 = 1.056. A 1000 delve dmg crit would hit for 621.

844 vs 621. There are a lot of ways to compare those two numbers. That’s a marginal decrease in damage of 26.4% on crits. It’s a 37.9% “reduction in dmg on crit” as opposed to a 15.6% reduction in dmg on crit without impreg for a net increased reduction of 22.3%.. I think that 22.3% number is the best number to compare against brass, since it’s subtractive and resists are subtractive as well.

MurderMostFoul · November 2017

Thogard wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

@Lexxypwns I am genuinely confused about the offense that is taken from my post. All I am doing is shedding some light on the comparison between Impregnable and Brass. Lets use your 1.7 number and assume you are running all impen on your gear.

As you have said, the set bonuses form Brass will give you an additional 12.25% damage reduction from critical hits (and normal hits). The 2500 critical resistance from Impregnable will decrease your opponent's crit multiplier by 0.379. Thus, the additional crit damage reduction it provides with a base 1.7 crit damage multiplier is:

1 - (1.7 - 0.379)/1.7 ~ 0.223

Thus, you take about an additional 22.3% less damage from crits with Impregnable. That is the number that needs to be compared with 12.25% additional damage reduction to everything (crits and normal hits) provided by Brass.

Gotta keep things equal.

Regular build full impen (1750 crit resist) against opponent with 20% bonus crit dmg
1.7 - .265 = 1.435. A 1000 delve dmg crit would hit for 844

Same situation but add impreg (4250 crit resist)
1.7 - .644 = 1.056. A 1000 delve dmg crit would hit for 621.

844 vs 621. There are a lot of ways to compare those two numbers. That’s a marginal decrease in damage of 26.4% on crits. It’s a 37.9% “reduction in dmg on crit” as opposed to a 15.6% reduction in dmg on crit without impreg for a net increased reduction of 22.3%.. I think that 22.3% number is the best number to compare against brass, since it’s subtractive and resists are subtractive as well.

Phew, I'm glad to see that we understand each other at this point.

You we're right @Waffennacht, I certainly became "Nervous" for a minute there.

Minno · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

@paulsimonps help me

68 impen reduces crit damage by 1% yes or no?

Crit resist ÷ 68 ÷ 100 = crit resistance modifier.

Then subtract from the crit DMG modifier (1.70 in some cases).

After that, I don't look at how that looks in percentages. Unless someone can convince me to take that extra step, simply subtracting their modifier works for me.

It's reducing their chance to do extra crit DMG, then it's calculated through the percentage based mitigation, then the shield and finally against block/armor resists. I'll have to read again if the DMG incoming is boosted by buffs first then crit or crit is before. Either way I see the incoming DMG as one chunk that I usually have no control over anyway.

This is how I see it:
Attack (after battlespirit) - attack crits - my crit resists reduce the modifier- critted attack hits me - my percentage based mitigation reduces the DMG - no shield - DMG after percentage mitigation is blocked with armor resists multiplied together = final DMG hit.

Waffennacht · November 2017

1000 crit damage with a modifer of 1.7 means x (.7) = 1000, or 1428 base damage.

4250 = 62.5%

.7 - .625 = .075, or 7.5%

1428 x .075 = 107.1

1428 + 107 = 1535

@paulsimonps @Thogard @MurderMostFoul why am I wrong?

MurderMostFoul · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

1000 crit damage with a modifer of 1.7 means x (.7) = 1000, or 1428 base damage.

4250 = 62.5%

.7 - .625 = .075, or 7.5%

1428 x .075 = 107.1

1428 + 107 = 1535

@paulsimonps @Thogard @MurderMostFoul why am I wrong?

Honestly, I'm have a very hard time interrupting your numbers, so I don't really know how to comment.

paulsimonps · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

1000 crit damage with a modifer of 1.7 means x (.7) = 1000, or 1428 base damage.

4250 = 62.5%

.7 - .625 = .075, or 7.5%

1428 x .075 = 107.1

1428 + 107 = 1535

@paulsimonps @Thogard @MurderMostFoul why am I wrong?

I am so confused at what you are trying to do.... so 4250 is critical resistance I am assuming. 1000 is the base damage. Your enemies critical modifier is 1.7 and your resistance is 62.5% or 0.625 negative modifier. Their total damage modifier becomes 1.075 so the damage you take will be 1000*1.075=1075 lowering the damage taken by 625. The last 2 lines were not needed from your post, they made no sense.

Thogard · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

1000 crit damage with a modifer of 1.7 means x (.7) = 1000, or 1428 base damage.

4250 = 62.5%

.7 - .625 = .075, or 7.5%

1428 x .075 = 107.1

1428 + 107 = 1535

@paulsimonps @Thogard @MurderMostFoul why am I wrong?

I don’t really understand your parameters here... you lost me at the 1428.

1000 bass dmg with a crit (+.5) with 20% bonus crit dmg (+.2) (so 1.7 crit dmg modifier) = 1700

Then let’s look at crit resist. Let’s say you have 4250 from full impen + impreg. (4250 / 66) / 100 = .644

So the actual crit modifier, once you factor in crit dmg bonus (.20) and crits resistance (.644) is [1.5 + .20 - 0.644 = 1.056

So the actual dmg of a crit hit would be 1056 in this case, whereas a non crit would hit them for 1000. If the target had no crit resistance at all, it would hit them for 1700.

paulsimonps · November 2017

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1.5+(Critical Damage Buff #1/100)+(Critical Damage Buff #2/100)+(etc etc)-(Critical Resistance/68/100))

1075=1000*(1.5+(20/100)-(4250/68/100))