The Brass Soldier - WARNING You may become "Nervous"!

Minno

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

So trans/ impreg is 68%crit damage mitigation? Essentially making crits with a modifier under 1.7x equal to a regular attack?

Trans+ impreg can potentially negate 80% crit DMG. Problem is everyone who isn't running 80% crit DMG might not care, especially if they stacked WD/mag to boost their tooltips for maximum burst.

That's why so many players aim for 60% crit resists (about 3800-3900 resists) and then stack other sources of mitigation when using impreg/trans.

Wreuntzylla

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

Ok, let me be specific. They don't focus on crit damage.

It used to be that a large number of people would run the shadow mundus, sets that increase crit damage, traps for minor force and spec heavily into CP crit damage modifier. I don't know that anyone does that anymore and anecdotally good PvPers don't. I myself toyed with it on a sniper build but all it did was make killing PvE players in one shot instead of two. It was a distinct liability on PvP players due to the many ways to lower crit damage (including sets like impregnable).

More generally, seeing how everything works together often helps for me see the big picture.

I prefer the combined equations that pull everything in to give you a result, like the average damage equations provided by @asayre. In those equations, it clearly shows how the various modifiers interact. I like to think of it this way. While the critical modifier is subtractive, mitigation lowers base damage and therefore also critical damage.











The critical modifier is modified subtractively by the crtical resistance modifier.

Crtitical - impen - Resistant (all expressed in decimal form).

So you can see that while critical resistance lowers critical damage multiplier subtractively, mitigation reduces base damage and therefore also any resulting crit.

I did however rely on anecdotes as I don't know if the formulai have changed since I last looked at the equations.

Obviously, to determine burst damage you need to remove the critical chance from the average damage equation.

This was all good as of horns of the reach, but I haven't looked to see if anything has changed since. That's why I am relying on anecdotal evidence for my conclusion.

Waffennacht

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

Ok, let me be specific. They don't focus on crit damage.

It used to be that a large number of people would run the shadow mundus, sets that increase crit damage, traps for minor force and spec heavily into CP crit damage modifier. I don't know that anyone does that anymore and anecdotally good PvPers don't. I myself toyed with it on a sniper build but all it did was make killing PvE players in one shot instead of two. It was a distinct liability on PvP players due to the many ways to lower crit damage (including sets like impregnable).

More generally, seeing how everything works together often helps for me see the big picture.

I prefer the combined equations that pull everything in to give you a result, like the average damage equations provided by @asayre. In those equations, it clearly shows how the various modifiers interact. I like to think of it this way. While the critical modifier is subtractive, mitigation lowers base damage and therefore also critical damage.











The critical modifier is modified subtractively by the crtical resistance modifier.

Crtitical - impen - Resistant (all expressed in decimal form).

So you can see that while critical resistance lowers critical damage multiplier subtractively, mitigation reduces base damage and therefore also any resulting crit.

I did however rely on anecdotes as I don't know if the formulai have changed since I last looked at the equations.

Obviously, to determine burst damage you need to remove the critical chance from the average damage equation.

This was all good as of horns of the reach, but I haven't looked to see if anything has changed since. That's why I am relying on anecdotal evidence for my conclusion.

@Asayre hasn't posted in like a year, I seriously doubt any of his work is still relevant, @paulsimonps has replaced @Asayre for my equation finder.

Edit: looking him up, he posted a few months ago in the PTS, but the sorcerer post hasn't been updated in forever

Thogard

Yeah...
To be fair, if you’re running impreg then you probably want to run it in sturdy or well fitted. You’ can potentially get far more actual mitigation out of that strat than just stacking impen.

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

Ok, let me be specific. They don't focus on crit damage.

It used to be that a large number of people would run the shadow mundus, sets that increase crit damage, traps for minor force and spec heavily into CP crit damage modifier. I don't know that anyone does that anymore and anecdotally good PvPers don't. I myself toyed with it on a sniper build but all it did was make killing PvE players in one shot instead of two. It was a distinct liability on PvP players due to the many ways to lower crit damage (including sets like impregnable).

More generally, seeing how everything works together often helps for me see the big picture.

I prefer the combined equations that pull everything in to give you a result, like the average damage equations provided by @asayre. In those equations, it clearly shows how the various modifiers interact. I like to think of it this way. While the critical modifier is subtractive, mitigation lowers base damage and therefore also critical damage.











The critical modifier is modified subtractively by the crtical resistance modifier.

Crtitical - impen - Resistant (all expressed in decimal form).

So you can see that while critical resistance lowers critical damage multiplier subtractively, mitigation reduces base damage and therefore also any resulting crit.

I did however rely on anecdotes as I don't know if the formulai have changed since I last looked at the equations.

Obviously, to determine burst damage you need to remove the critical chance from the average damage equation.

This was all good as of horns of the reach, but I haven't looked to see if anything has changed since. That's why I am relying on anecdotal evidence for my conclusion.

@Asayre hasn't posted in like a year, I seriously doubt any of his work is still relevant, @paulsimonps has replaced @Asayre for my equation finder.

Edit: looking him up, he posted a few months ago in the PTS, but the sorcerer post hasn't been updated in forever

He mostly pushed pve content (since tooltip stacks and unmeasurable encounters in cyro negated much of what Asayre created). But generally Asayre started the DMG calculations. For PvP, Paul has been instrumental in getting us to understand how we mitigate DMG.

Waffennacht

@Minno don't get me wrong, @Asayre was amazing, helped me several times personally, I just dunno if he even plays anymore

Gan Xing

wait, now I'm confused..

People are using crit chance and crit DMG as if they are similar.... I know there was a post somewhere in here that someone defined the difference, but it didn't quite seem clear enough.

Also yea, any update on the equations? I know that within the past year they adjusted the equations to better fit what they had in mind for combat and how damage dealt and damage mitigated is calculated.

Waffennacht

Gan Xing wrote: »

wait, now I'm confused..

People are using crit chance and crit DMG as if they are similar.... I know there was a post somewhere in here that someone defined the difference, but it didn't quite seem clear enough.

Also yea, any update on the equations? I know that within the past year they adjusted the equations to better fit what they had in mind for combat and how damage dealt and damage mitigated is calculated.

I think I realized something too.

Ok critical chance is how likely to get a critical hit you are

Critical damage is damage done when an attack critically hits.

This is where I think @MurderMostFoul was coming in (I'll have to go back to check)

BUT

To get the AVERAGE LONG RUN VALUE, you take your critical damage and your critical chance and multiply (if you have 50% chance to deal 50% more damage, you average becomes 25% more damage). I think @MurderMostFoul was talking about long run averages... Which I @#$&ing covered back when @Thogard originally asked /facepalm

Waffennacht

GD it @MurderMostFoul this is why they have words, "average" "long run" and "divided by crit chance," it would have saved me literally HOURS had you used the word Average (hell even mean, medium, or mode would've gotten me there) just once lmfao.

And btw I did cover long run average by multiplying the crit chance when @Thogard asked about crit ranges.

Edit: I'm not angry, just holy cow that was way more difficult than it should have been.

Brutusmax1mus

Can someone just make a graph that lets you input values for the equations that lets you easily adjust the values to see how they impact damage or mitigation.. IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK? Please!

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

GD it @MurderMostFoul this is why they have words, "average" "long run" and "divided by crit chance," it would have saved me literally HOURS had you used the word Average (hell even mean, medium, or mode would've gotten me there) just once lmfao.

And btw I did cover long run average by multiplying the crit chance when @Thogard asked about crit ranges.

Edit: I'm not angry, just holy cow that was way more difficult than it should have been.

Waffennacht

Thogard wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

GD it @MurderMostFoul this is why they have words, "average" "long run" and "divided by crit chance," it would have saved me literally HOURS had you used the word Average (hell even mean, medium, or mode would've gotten me there) just once lmfao.

And btw I did cover long run average by multiplying the crit chance when @Thogard asked about crit ranges.

Edit: I'm not angry, just holy cow that was way more difficult than it should have been.

Mr Rogers?! Et tu Rogers? Et tu...?

Lmfao

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Can someone just make a graph that lets you input values for the equations that lets you easily adjust the values to see how they impact damage or mitigation.. IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK? Please!

Yes, yes it is, I'm gonna guess we're all on phones

Brutusmax1mus

Yea mobile 4lyfe

Torbschka

Waffennacht wrote: »

As much as I enjoyed the Stamina version, I'm more enjoying the mag.

My unbuffed tooltip on BoL is 10k, and with the resistance it's far sturdier than a shield.

I'm also a vampire

It's SnB so 31k mag resistance and 29.5k physical resistance

Using the invig stun, mist form for LoS. Do run healing ward back bar

Did end up going with Witchmother's cuz health

A word about impregnable: a part of what I love about non-meta builds or armor is how easy they are to aquire. Impreg in sturdy is a real PiA to get for 90% of the population.

Like BSW inferno staff or vMA weapons, like yeah they are/were awesome as get out, but I'm not gonna write a guide with then.

I always hated finding a really cool guide, then realizing it needs trial gear

Hey,

firstly I want to say thx for the thread , actually I enjoy most of ur posts in general - well structured and nice to read.

Although Im not convinced about the stam version , Im really intetested in the mag version, cuz I just leveled up a magplar.

Could u clarify it a bit?

5x bsw
5x brass
2x grothar

?

Edit: I always wanted to ask @Waffennacht if u are a german , cut this name is agerman one.

MurderMostFoul

Waffennacht wrote: »

GD it @MurderMostFoul this is why they have words, "average" "long run" and "divided by crit chance," it would have saved me literally HOURS had you used the word Average (hell even mean, medium, or mode would've gotten me there) just once lmfao. And btw I did cover long run average by multiplying the crit chance when @Thogard asked about crit ranges. Edit: I'm not angry, just holy cow that was way more difficult than it should have been.

Sorry for any confusion. It probably didn't help that I used an inaccurate method to calculate the "average" damage. For that final step, the proper math was stated by @Thogard:

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

So when you say "weigh" I assume you calculate crit chance after crit DMG in your example? Sorry for the question spam lol.

Yeah so if there’s a 60% crit chance, just multiply the crit dmg number there by 60% and the regular dmg number there by 40%

That’ll get you the expected value.

As for how useful that number is in a game where burst is everything... I dunno.

Waffennacht

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

GD it @MurderMostFoul this is why they have words, "average" "long run" and "divided by crit chance," it would have saved me literally HOURS had you used the word Average (hell even mean, medium, or mode would've gotten me there) just once lmfao. And btw I did cover long run average by multiplying the crit chance when @Thogard asked about crit ranges. Edit: I'm not angry, just holy cow that was way more difficult than it should have been.

Sorry for any confusion. It probably didn't help that I used an inaccurate method to calculate the "average" damage. For that final step, the proper math was stated by @Thogard:

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

So when you say "weigh" I assume you calculate crit chance after crit DMG in your example? Sorry for the question spam lol.

Yeah so if there’s a 60% crit chance, just multiply the crit dmg number there by 60% and the regular dmg number there by 40%

That’ll get you the expected value.

As for how useful that number is in a game where burst is everything... I dunno.

Lol all good man! I'm glad it all got worked out.

Impregnable is pretty much a superior set, but brass is way easier and isn't completely out classed

Waffennacht

@Torbschka German descent, American but family moved.

Yeah, I get that a lot.

Ich kann sprechen Deutsch... Kinda

casparian

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Torbschka German descent, American but family moved.

Yeah, I get that a lot.

Ich kann sprechen Deutsch... Kinda

*Ich kann Deutsch ziemlich gut sprechen.

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

GD it @MurderMostFoul this is why they have words, "average" "long run" and "divided by crit chance," it would have saved me literally HOURS had you used the word Average (hell even mean, medium, or mode would've gotten me there) just once lmfao. And btw I did cover long run average by multiplying the crit chance when @Thogard asked about crit ranges. Edit: I'm not angry, just holy cow that was way more difficult than it should have been.

Sorry for any confusion. It probably didn't help that I used an inaccurate method to calculate the "average" damage. For that final step, the proper math was stated by @Thogard:

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

So when you say "weigh" I assume you calculate crit chance after crit DMG in your example? Sorry for the question spam lol.

Yeah so if there’s a 60% crit chance, just multiply the crit dmg number there by 60% and the regular dmg number there by 40%

That’ll get you the expected value.

As for how useful that number is in a game where burst is everything... I dunno.

Lol all good man! I'm glad it all got worked out.

Impregnable is pretty much a superior set, but brass is way easier and isn't completely out classed

I'd say craft brass then wait as you farm impreg pieces.

Waffennacht

Minno wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

GD it @MurderMostFoul this is why they have words, "average" "long run" and "divided by crit chance," it would have saved me literally HOURS had you used the word Average (hell even mean, medium, or mode would've gotten me there) just once lmfao. And btw I did cover long run average by multiplying the crit chance when @Thogard asked about crit ranges. Edit: I'm not angry, just holy cow that was way more difficult than it should have been.

Sorry for any confusion. It probably didn't help that I used an inaccurate method to calculate the "average" damage. For that final step, the proper math was stated by @Thogard:

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

So when you say "weigh" I assume you calculate crit chance after crit DMG in your example? Sorry for the question spam lol.

Yeah so if there’s a 60% crit chance, just multiply the crit dmg number there by 60% and the regular dmg number there by 40%

That’ll get you the expected value.

As for how useful that number is in a game where burst is everything... I dunno.

Lol all good man! I'm glad it all got worked out.

Impregnable is pretty much a superior set, but brass is way easier and isn't completely out classed

I'd say craft brass then wait as you farm impreg pieces.

@Minno I can't stick to one idea long enough, I'm currently working on my mag warden. I'm missing... Something...

Hutch679

Waffennacht wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

GD it @MurderMostFoul this is why they have words, "average" "long run" and "divided by crit chance," it would have saved me literally HOURS had you used the word Average (hell even mean, medium, or mode would've gotten me there) just once lmfao. And btw I did cover long run average by multiplying the crit chance when @Thogard asked about crit ranges. Edit: I'm not angry, just holy cow that was way more difficult than it should have been.

Sorry for any confusion. It probably didn't help that I used an inaccurate method to calculate the "average" damage. For that final step, the proper math was stated by @Thogard:

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

So when you say "weigh" I assume you calculate crit chance after crit DMG in your example? Sorry for the question spam lol.

Yeah so if there’s a 60% crit chance, just multiply the crit dmg number there by 60% and the regular dmg number there by 40%

That’ll get you the expected value.

As for how useful that number is in a game where burst is everything... I dunno.

Lol all good man! I'm glad it all got worked out.

Impregnable is pretty much a superior set, but brass is way easier and isn't completely out classed

I'd say craft brass then wait as you farm impreg pieces.

@Minno I can't stick to one idea long enough, I'm currently working on my mag warden. I'm missing... Something...

Innate axiom, necropotence, 1 domihaus is absurd.

GrigorijMalahevich

All this ESO Maths is great, but lets not forget that one of my guildies was proving to me that each impen item lowers enemies crit chance by 5% and was ready to bet 200k on that...

@Lexxypwns and @Waffennacht can somebody finally tell me by how much riposte lowers damage???


P.S. I finally started getting “nervous”

Waffennacht

Hutch679 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

GD it @MurderMostFoul this is why they have words, "average" "long run" and "divided by crit chance," it would have saved me literally HOURS had you used the word Average (hell even mean, medium, or mode would've gotten me there) just once lmfao. And btw I did cover long run average by multiplying the crit chance when @Thogard asked about crit ranges. Edit: I'm not angry, just holy cow that was way more difficult than it should have been.

Sorry for any confusion. It probably didn't help that I used an inaccurate method to calculate the "average" damage. For that final step, the proper math was stated by @Thogard:

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

So when you say "weigh" I assume you calculate crit chance after crit DMG in your example? Sorry for the question spam lol.

Yeah so if there’s a 60% crit chance, just multiply the crit dmg number there by 60% and the regular dmg number there by 40%

That’ll get you the expected value.

As for how useful that number is in a game where burst is everything... I dunno.

Lol all good man! I'm glad it all got worked out.

Impregnable is pretty much a superior set, but brass is way easier and isn't completely out classed

I'd say craft brass then wait as you farm impreg pieces.

@Minno I can't stick to one idea long enough, I'm currently working on my mag warden. I'm missing... Something...

Innate axiom, necropotence, 1 domihaus is absurd.

I has that. I'm having a hell of time pinning good players down. The types that run like headless chickens (lol) (they're good just joking around)

I know I could run Soul Assault or N Storm, but that's too cheesy for me in duels. I think I want a snare...

Lexxypwns

Valera Progib wrote: »

All this ESO Maths is great, but lets not forget that one of my guildies was proving to me that each impen item lowers enemies crit chance by 5% and was ready to bet 200k on that...

@Lexxypwns and @Waffennacht can somebody finally tell me by how much riposte lowers damage???

It’s not so simple. In a vacuum it provides ~10%(i think) mitigation in pvp, with other percentage based resist(CP, protection) it is multiplicative meaning you get a seriously diminished return the more % based mitigations you have

Waffennacht

Valera Progib wrote: »

All this ESO Maths is great, but lets not forget that one of my guildies was proving to me that each impen item lowers enemies crit chance by 5% and was ready to bet 200k on that...

@Lexxypwns and @Waffennacht can somebody finally tell me by how much riposte lowers damage???


P.S. I finally started getting “nervous”

Impen is 250-ish per piece right? That's a bit more than 3.5% He could have just rounded down an earlier number to get to 5%.

And if he unknowingly added the armor's actual resistance value, that too would get you close to 5%.

He's close enough that it would become a fight I'm sure lol. I mean he's about 1% off

GrigorijMalahevich

Waffennacht wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

All this ESO Maths is great, but lets not forget that one of my guildies was proving to me that each impen item lowers enemies crit chance by 5% and was ready to bet 200k on that...

@Lexxypwns and @Waffennacht can somebody finally tell me by how much riposte lowers damage???


P.S. I finally started getting “nervous”

Impen is 250-ish per piece right? That's a bit more than 3.5% He could have just rounded down an earlier number to get to 5%.

And if he unknowingly added the armor's actual resistance value, that too would get you close to 5%.

He's close enough that it would become a fight I'm sure lol. I mean he's about 1% off

Haha man, he ment actual crit chance, not crit damage that is what was funny

@Lexxypwns so standard 10k resist applies before riposte debuff and CP damage mitigation after? Ffs that is confusing...

Waffennacht

Valera Progib wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

All this ESO Maths is great, but lets not forget that one of my guildies was proving to me that each impen item lowers enemies crit chance by 5% and was ready to bet 200k on that...

@Lexxypwns and @Waffennacht can somebody finally tell me by how much riposte lowers damage???


P.S. I finally started getting “nervous”

Impen is 250-ish per piece right? That's a bit more than 3.5% He could have just rounded down an earlier number to get to 5%.

And if he unknowingly added the armor's actual resistance value, that too would get you close to 5%.

He's close enough that it would become a fight I'm sure lol. I mean he's about 1% off

Haha man, he ment actual crit chance, not crit damage that is what was funny

@Lexxypwns so standard 10k resist applies before riposte debuff and CP damage mitigation after? Ffs that is confusing...

It doesn't exactly matter the order because it multiplicative. Either way diminishing returns works the same.

Remember, however, maim and effects that apply to your opponent will have an impact on shield damage.

So you'll gain the full 15% mitigation from Riposte while you have a shield up

Edit - CP mitigation diminishing returns but that'll only make Riposte around 13% (depending on CP allocation of course)

Wreuntzylla

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

Waffennacht wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

Ok, let me be specific. They don't focus on crit damage.

It used to be that a large number of people would run the shadow mundus, sets that increase crit damage, traps for minor force and spec heavily into CP crit damage modifier. I don't know that anyone does that anymore and anecdotally good PvPers don't. I myself toyed with it on a sniper build but all it did was make killing PvE players in one shot instead of two. It was a distinct liability on PvP players due to the many ways to lower crit damage (including sets like impregnable).

More generally, seeing how everything works together often helps for me see the big picture.

I prefer the combined equations that pull everything in to give you a result, like the average damage equations provided by @asayre. In those equations, it clearly shows how the various modifiers interact. I like to think of it this way. While the critical modifier is subtractive, mitigation lowers base damage and therefore also critical damage.











The critical modifier is modified subtractively by the crtical resistance modifier.

Crtitical - impen - Resistant (all expressed in decimal form).

So you can see that while critical resistance lowers critical damage multiplier subtractively, mitigation reduces base damage and therefore also any resulting crit.

I did however rely on anecdotes as I don't know if the formulai have changed since I last looked at the equations.

Obviously, to determine burst damage you need to remove the critical chance from the average damage equation.

This was all good as of horns of the reach, but I haven't looked to see if anything has changed since. That's why I am relying on anecdotal evidence for my conclusion.

@Asayre hasn't posted in like a year, I seriously doubt any of his work is still relevant, @paulsimonps has replaced @Asayre for my equation finder.

Edit: looking him up, he posted a few months ago in the PTS, but the sorcerer post hasn't been updated in forever

Ok, but do you think they changed the formulas so that resistance does not lower base damage?

I want to put this in comparable terms. I like Thogard's scenario but I don't like that the comparison is to critical damage rather than total damage.

Crunching the math and assuming (1) thogard's scenario; and (2) base is reduced by mitigation and then CHD is applied.


CHD 1.7 = 2448 (Max Damage Potential)
CHD 1.7 with brass = 12%
CHD of 1.4 no brass = 18%
CHD of 1.4 with brass = 28%
CHD of 1.06 no brass = 38%
CHD of 1.06 with brass: 46%


That look about right?

Edit: % is reduction in damage from max damage potential.

Hutch679

Waffennacht wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

GD it @MurderMostFoul this is why they have words, "average" "long run" and "divided by crit chance," it would have saved me literally HOURS had you used the word Average (hell even mean, medium, or mode would've gotten me there) just once lmfao. And btw I did cover long run average by multiplying the crit chance when @Thogard asked about crit ranges. Edit: I'm not angry, just holy cow that was way more difficult than it should have been.

Sorry for any confusion. It probably didn't help that I used an inaccurate method to calculate the "average" damage. For that final step, the proper math was stated by @Thogard:

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

So when you say "weigh" I assume you calculate crit chance after crit DMG in your example? Sorry for the question spam lol.

Yeah so if there’s a 60% crit chance, just multiply the crit dmg number there by 60% and the regular dmg number there by 40%

That’ll get you the expected value.

As for how useful that number is in a game where burst is everything... I dunno.

Lol all good man! I'm glad it all got worked out.

Impregnable is pretty much a superior set, but brass is way easier and isn't completely out classed

I'd say craft brass then wait as you farm impreg pieces.

@Minno I can't stick to one idea long enough, I'm currently working on my mag warden. I'm missing... Something...

Innate axiom, necropotence, 1 domihaus is absurd.

I has that. I'm having a hell of time pinning good players down. The types that run like headless chickens (lol) (they're good just joking around)

I know I could run Soul Assault or N Storm, but that's too cheesy for me in duels. I think I want a snare...

I run the cancer in duels. Don't care if it's cheesey. Fletcher flies, then deep fissure, cliff racer, medium weave, clench, bear execute... game over. I run the same combo in Deathmatch bgs and it's stupid powerful. Other game modes I mostly heal and act as utility throwing some damage. It's ridiculously effective lol

Hutch679

So wait... a stam sorc could run...

2 valkyn skoria
5 bone pirate
5 fortified brass

Dw axe/dagger or dual axes
Master bow
6 medium/1 heavy

All weapon power glyphs
Double damage health poisons
Warrior mundus
Dubious Cameron throne

And be extremely tanky at 28ish resists, with shuffle, with high damage in medium armor, high sustain, high pressure with dots, cc from drain shot and insane heals?????

This is what this thread is saying? Lol