The Brass Soldier - WARNING You may become "Nervous"!

Dyride

Nice ideas @Waffennacht. You can also get Robust Pariah jewelry, it doesn't give quite as much resists at full health (3kish if I remember) but your resists will go way past hardcap with lower health and would account for enemy Pen.

Waffennacht

I really appreciate everyone's comments and ideas. I have a ton of material and ideas to try.

You, the forum community, are truly awesome.

Thank you

casparian

Comparing Brass + Automaton + Selene vs. Impregnable + Automaton + Blood Spawn:

In the Brass setup, I get 3-4% higher resistances (depending on CP, and assuming Blood Spawn proc), 10-12% lower crit resist (depending on CP), identical crit, and about 500 less weapon damage (4.9k fully buffed on Impreg + Auto vs. 4.4k fully buffed on Brass + Auto). I can also afford to put points in Quick Recovery and invest heavily in the mitigation stars on the Impreg setup. Going full weapon damage on the jewelry with Dubious Throne, I get ~200 less stamina recovery with Impreg + Warrior than Brass + Serpent. I can live with 1.5k stamina recovery, especially with dodge roll cost so low. (My Impreg setup uses 5 Well-Fitted and 2 Impen. Not sure if 7 Well-Fitted is worth it.)

The attributes aren't significantly different, except the Impreg setup gives me roughly the same health and stamina as the Brass setup but with 1k more magicka. Since I run Restoring Focus and not Channeled (the Minor Vitality one, not the magica-return one), I need all the magicka I can get.

At the end of the day, I like the Brass setup but I think I have a slight preference for the Impreg setup.

artal

I dont know why community is so negative, Op is trying to help with his experience. Doesn't really matter if he is first, original or not. Personally i tried armor master long time ago, and I found it fine just not what i truly like. Same with brass.
But this post will surely help some players.
What I see as weakness for brass are bleed focused builds, and with that low health... just ouch

@casparian I like impreg for stamplar to, and if you dont need 7 well fited how about 2 infused or divines on big pieces?

casparian

artal wrote: »

I dont know why community is so negative, Op is trying to help with his experience. Doesn't really matter if he is first, original or not. Personally i tried armor master long time ago, and I found it fine just not what i truly like. Same with brass.
But this post will surely help some players.
What I see as weakness for brass are bleed focused builds, and with that low health... just ouch

@casparian I like impreg for stamplar to, and if you dont need 7 well fited how about 2 infused or divines on big pieces?

Honestly, the main reason I run 2 Impen is because I already had those pieces in Impen. But I do like having massive crit resists -- at 60% crit resist, you're basically completely removing your enemy's ability to get critical hits, unless they're a templar with Minor Force or something.

Thogard

casparian wrote: »

artal wrote: »

I dont know why community is so negative, Op is trying to help with his experience. Doesn't really matter if he is first, original or not. Personally i tried armor master long time ago, and I found it fine just not what i truly like. Same with brass.
But this post will surely help some players.
What I see as weakness for brass are bleed focused builds, and with that low health... just ouch

@casparian I like impreg for stamplar to, and if you dont need 7 well fited how about 2 infused or divines on big pieces?

Honestly, the main reason I run 2 Impen is because I already had those pieces in Impen. But I do like having massive crit resists -- at 60% crit resist, you're basically completely removing your enemy's ability to get critical hits, unless they're a templar with Minor Force or something.

Impreg is also available in every armor type, and with every jewelry trait. Very customizable.

Waffennacht

As much as I enjoyed the Stamina version, I'm more enjoying the mag.

My unbuffed tooltip on BoL is 10k, and with the resistance it's far sturdier than a shield.

I'm also a vampire

It's SnB so 31k mag resistance and 29.5k physical resistance

Using the invig stun, mist form for LoS. Do run healing ward back bar

Did end up going with Witchmother's cuz health

A word about impregnable: a part of what I love about non-meta builds or armor is how easy they are to aquire. Impreg in sturdy is a real PiA to get for 90% of the population.

Like BSW inferno staff or vMA weapons, like yeah they are/were awesome as get out, but I'm not gonna write a guide with then.

I always hated finding a really cool guide, then realizing it needs trial gear

casparian

Thogard wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

artal wrote: »

I dont know why community is so negative, Op is trying to help with his experience. Doesn't really matter if he is first, original or not. Personally i tried armor master long time ago, and I found it fine just not what i truly like. Same with brass.
But this post will surely help some players.
What I see as weakness for brass are bleed focused builds, and with that low health... just ouch

@casparian I like impreg for stamplar to, and if you dont need 7 well fited how about 2 infused or divines on big pieces?

Honestly, the main reason I run 2 Impen is because I already had those pieces in Impen. But I do like having massive crit resists -- at 60% crit resist, you're basically completely removing your enemy's ability to get critical hits, unless they're a templar with Minor Force or something.

Impreg is also available in every armor type, and with every jewelry trait. Very customizable.

Oh I know; it's my Bloodspawn pieces that are impen. Now that you can re-trait items, maybe I'll farm up some new Bloodspawn pieces during the dungeon event this week and try out infused or whatever.

But having 60% crit resist is pretty awesome.

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

As much as I enjoyed the Stamina version, I'm more enjoying the mag.

My unbuffed tooltip on BoL is 10k, and with the resistance it's far sturdier than a shield.

I'm also a vampire

It's SnB so 31k mag resistance and 29.5k physical resistance

Using the invig stun, mist form for LoS. Do run healing ward back bar

Did end up going with Witchmother's cuz health

A word about impregnable: a part of what I love about non-meta builds or armor is how easy they are to aquire. Impreg in sturdy is a real PiA to get for 90% of the population.

Like BSW inferno staff or vMA weapons, like yeah they are/were awesome as get out, but I'm not gonna write a guide with then.

I always hated finding a really cool guide, then realizing it needs trial gear

If you don't mind giving up ultimate gen, accelerating drain will give you minor expedition that will obviously stack with mist form.

No shield LA meta is hampered by lack of physical resists. 7k bugs/birds are a real pain sometimes lol.

Waffennacht

Minno wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

As much as I enjoyed the Stamina version, I'm more enjoying the mag.

My unbuffed tooltip on BoL is 10k, and with the resistance it's far sturdier than a shield.

I'm also a vampire

It's SnB so 31k mag resistance and 29.5k physical resistance

Using the invig stun, mist form for LoS. Do run healing ward back bar

Did end up going with Witchmother's cuz health

A word about impregnable: a part of what I love about non-meta builds or armor is how easy they are to aquire. Impreg in sturdy is a real PiA to get for 90% of the population.

Like BSW inferno staff or vMA weapons, like yeah they are/were awesome as get out, but I'm not gonna write a guide with then.

I always hated finding a really cool guide, then realizing it needs trial gear

If you don't mind giving up ultimate gen, accelerating drain will give you minor expedition that will obviously stack with mist form.

No shield LA meta is hampered by lack of physical resists. 7k bugs/birds are a real pain sometimes lol.

I actually haven't morphed it yet

About Dem wardens, I use mist form to pwn bugs and birds to close the gap, weapon swap outta mist (if you time it well you won't lose much if any Regen) and go the offensive. Pressure is what stops the birds from my experience (and hard CCs)

Though I did jump on my mag warden last night to show some guildies and... I forgot what such power feels like...

Lexxypwns

casparian wrote: »

Comparing Brass + Automaton + Selene vs. Impregnable + Automaton + Blood Spawn:

In the Brass setup, I get 3-4% higher resistances (depending on CP, and assuming Blood Spawn proc), 10-12% lower crit resist (depending on CP), identical crit, and about 500 less weapon damage (4.9k fully buffed on Impreg + Auto vs. 4.4k fully buffed on Brass + Auto). I can also afford to put points in Quick Recovery and invest heavily in the mitigation stars on the Impreg setup. Going full weapon damage on the jewelry with Dubious Throne, I get ~200 less stamina recovery with Impreg + Warrior than Brass + Serpent. I can live with 1.5k stamina recovery, especially with dodge roll cost so low. (My Impreg setup uses 5 Well-Fitted and 2 Impen. Not sure if 7 Well-Fitted is worth it.)

The attributes aren't significantly different, except the Impreg setup gives me roughly the same health and stamina as the Brass setup but with 1k more magicka. Since I run Restoring Focus and not Channeled (the Minor Vitality one, not the magica-return one), I need all the magicka I can get.

At the end of the day, I like the Brass setup but I think I have a slight preference for the Impreg setup.

The only issue with Impreg is that it gives you 0 mitigation on some attacks. Combine that with the ability to add adequate Crit Resistance into a build more easily and I give a slight edge to brass.

However, I haven’t personally tested both in real action so I don’t have any anecdotal input

zParallaxz

I’m lookin at your build again and I’m thinking your better off going bone pirate instead of automaton. The full potential weapon damage of automaton is around 650 with only 450 going to ur heals since automaton doesn’t buff heals. The better trade off of bone pirate is the potential weapon damage of 400 that goes to ur heals and weapon damage while also receiving 279 recover when paired with dubious. Also plug in a two piece slime craw for the minor berserk which is an insane 8% damage increase or one piece domihaus and another one piece max stam. That would make ur build appealing to most. You would have around 21-22k health, over 2k regen unbuffed, 34-35k max stam, same resis, and more potential weapon damage with slime craw than previous build or the same potential weapon damage with two one piece max stam sets.

Waffennacht

@zParallaxz to use BP you either have to run DW/SnB or make Brass only on one bar. Your set up was exactly what I started with, but wanted brass on both bars and 2H

That left, Senche's bite, Ravager, 7th, Automaton as my best choices. Because Ravager and 7th have healthy jewelry, I went with Senche or Automaton, and Senche is harder to control, so I went with Automaton.

Craw, Skoria, Veli, are all great offensive set choices.

Though Veli is the best aesthetically

Edit: your set up is "superior" yet far more unforgiving, getting stuck on your non brass bar against say Crit Rush + Shalk and you're gonna eat ALOT of DMG

Brutusmax1mus

I love the brass set, but the 3/4 pc bonuses i hate due to sustain issues(for stamplar). My favorite stamplar set up is bone pirate and ravager with mixed chudan and pirate Skeleton. 5 medium snb/2h.

NightbladeMechanics

I glanced through this. Brass seems to be popular, but I’m still on the fence about whether Impreg is better.

Reducing enemy crit damage by 37% against 45% crit chance opponents is over 16% general damage mitigation. This is more than Brass. In addition, Impreg chops its damage off of crit spikes, whereas Brass lowers the enemy damage curve uniformly. That difference will save your life more often in big burst combos.

But Impreg’s effectiveness decreases against low crit chance opponents. I guess it depends on who you’re more afraid of.

Also we need to talk about CP. Badly. Sorry. I’ll help you min max yours.

Brutusmax1mus

Any one up to the challenge of figuring out the math behind brass vs impregnable based on set parameters?

Sunburnt_Penguin

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Any one up to the challenge of figuring out the math behind brass vs impregnable based on set parameters?

2.5 mill gold on PS4 EU and I’ll give you a report, complete with appendices.

VirtualElizabeth

I did a variation of your build and so far I love it (Blood spawn, Brass and the Drug King (Dreugh). I really feared feeling the sustain hit so I changed my mundus to the Stam Recovery option and I feel like a BEAST.

Not sure I am doing something wrong with not feeling the sustain hit but I am going to keep rockin' this for now.

Waffennacht

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

I did a variation of your build and so far I love it (Blood spawn, Brass and the Drug King (Dreugh). I really feared feeling the sustain hit so I changed my mundus to the Stam Recovery option and I feel like a BEAST.

Not sure I am doing something wrong with not feeling the sustain hit but I am going to keep rockin' this for now.

I do agree, the sustain isn't ever a problem for either of my builds. However a player's ability goes a long way in that.

You're probably just playing well (i.e. not spamming abilities that shouldn't be spammed... Like hitting purge twice in a row by accident...)

I know my CPs aren't great lol, one of my weak points (same with potions - I always use health pots lol)

I really enjoyed this build. I may be getting back on my wardens. Wanna try something similar (but I don't think automaton is going) on my stamden. And then something completely new on my Magden.

I may even bring my Sorc back from PvE. I couldn't help but think innate axiom would be dope on a Sorc

VirtualElizabeth

@Waffennacht I am still working on 5 medium 2 heavy with the build. But the Pledge Crates are not cooperating with me when it comes to giving me medium armor shoulders. I hope to Blood Spawn Medium shoulders and Valk medium shoulders. It seems ZOS is obsessed with selling the Valkyn head pieces though. Come on ZOS...work with me here, LOL!

Waffennacht

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Any one up to the challenge of figuring out the math behind brass vs impregnable based on set parameters?

It should actually be less complicated than it sounds.

Just starting from base numbers, because everyone has 50% crit damage minimum and Impregnable gives approximately 35% crit damage Reduction (if my numbers are correct) then the only variable becomes your Opponent's critical chance.

That usually ranges from 30%-70%. Meaning you'll get 35% damage Reduction X% of the time. Say your Opponent's crit chance is 70% you'll get an average long run value of 24.5% damage Reduction. If your opponent has 40% crit chance you get a real long run average of 14% DMG Reduction.

Brass from base provides a constant 12.34% damage reduction

So really impregnable is the superior choice (factor in CPs and other DMG Reduction effects brass becomes less effective)

Pros about brass:. Extremely easy to acquire in perfect traits, and can be crafted in any motif (I like to look good)

I like build guides everyone can have easy access to, plus it's all about ideas.

I've learned a lot from the comments made in this thread

Edit: my numbers are a bit off but they favor impregnable a bit more

Brutusmax1mus

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Any one up to the challenge of figuring out the math behind brass vs impregnable based on set parameters?

It should actually be less complicated than it sounds.

Just starting from base numbers, because everyone has 50% crit damage minimum and Impregnable gives approximately 35% crit damage Reduction (if my numbers are correct) then the only variable becomes your Opponent's critical chance.

That usually ranges from 30%-70%. Meaning you'll get 35% damage Reduction X% of the time. Say your Opponent's crit chance is 70% you'll get an average long run value of 24.5% damage Reduction. If your opponent has 40% crit chance you get a real long run average of 14% DMG Reduction.

Brass from base provides a constant 12.34% damage reduction

So really impregnable is the superior choice (factor in CPs and other DMG Reduction effects brass becomes less effective)

Pros about brass:. Extremely easy to acquire in perfect traits, and can be crafted in any motif (I like to look good)

I like build guides everyone can have easy access to, plus it's all about ideas.

I've learned a lot from the comments made in this thread

Edit: my numbers are a bit off but they favor impregnable a bit more

But what about when we throw in impen traits as well. Does that skew it towards brass at all?

Say brass full impen vs Impreg full impen. Something like that.

Waffennacht

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Any one up to the challenge of figuring out the math behind brass vs impregnable based on set parameters?

It should actually be less complicated than it sounds.

Just starting from base numbers, because everyone has 50% crit damage minimum and Impregnable gives approximately 35% crit damage Reduction (if my numbers are correct) then the only variable becomes your Opponent's critical chance.

That usually ranges from 30%-70%. Meaning you'll get 35% damage Reduction X% of the time. Say your Opponent's crit chance is 70% you'll get an average long run value of 24.5% damage Reduction. If your opponent has 40% crit chance you get a real long run average of 14% DMG Reduction.

Brass from base provides a constant 12.34% damage reduction

So really impregnable is the superior choice (factor in CPs and other DMG Reduction effects brass becomes less effective)

Pros about brass:. Extremely easy to acquire in perfect traits, and can be crafted in any motif (I like to look good)

I like build guides everyone can have easy access to, plus it's all about ideas.

I've learned a lot from the comments made in this thread

Edit: my numbers are a bit off but they favor impregnable a bit more

But what about when we throw in impen traits as well. Does that skew it towards brass at all?

Say brass full impen vs Impreg full impen. Something like that.

Well full impen + Impregnable is 64% crit DMG reduction. You're gonna use all of that with CP because of crit mods.

Against a 40% crit chance opponent you'll be looking at a real total value of 26%. Against that same opponent, if you're brass full impen you're looking at a real blah blah of 12% + 11% or 23%

In these circumstances brass is better if your opponent has 1.6 crit modifier or lower, and has a low crit chance.

But then it's still very close. Against the top end builds that run 1.7-1.9 crit mod, with 50-70% crit chance, impregnable will provide more long run average mitigation

One thing to consider: Impregnable has 0 affect on proc sets.

Brutusmax1mus

And what happens to the damage reduction when you add opponent penetration?

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Any one up to the challenge of figuring out the math behind brass vs impregnable based on set parameters?

It should actually be less complicated than it sounds.

Just starting from base numbers, because everyone has 50% crit damage minimum and Impregnable gives approximately 35% crit damage Reduction (if my numbers are correct) then the only variable becomes your Opponent's critical chance.

That usually ranges from 30%-70%. Meaning you'll get 35% damage Reduction X% of the time. Say your Opponent's crit chance is 70% you'll get an average long run value of 24.5% damage Reduction. If your opponent has 40% crit chance you get a real long run average of 14% DMG Reduction.

Brass from base provides a constant 12.34% damage reduction

So really impregnable is the superior choice (factor in CPs and other DMG Reduction effects brass becomes less effective)

Pros about brass:. Extremely easy to acquire in perfect traits, and can be crafted in any motif (I like to look good)

I like build guides everyone can have easy access to, plus it's all about ideas.

I've learned a lot from the comments made in this thread

Edit: my numbers are a bit off but they favor impregnable a bit more

Also dont forget that PvP isn't just a matter of taking turns hitting each other. With healing in play, it's all about burst. Impreg really cuts down on the burst, while not really affecting the non-burst portions, which means you get the defense when you need it.

Also you can get its jewelry in any trait, so you can pair it with a crafted set

Waffennacht

@Brutusmax1mus Opponent's penetration should be increased equally against both armor sets until impregnable starts getting Over penetrated, at which point your opponent is losing out on a lot.

Edit: impregnable is going to be superior in almost all cases. Brass will perform better against (dare I say) less PvP orientated builds

Brutusmax1mus

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Brutusmax1mus Opponent's penetration should be increased equally against both armor sets until impregnable starts getting Over penetrated, at which point your opponent is losing out on a lot.

Edit: impregnable is going to be superior in almost all cases. Brass will perform better against (dare I say) less PvP orientated builds

I really need to learn the equations, ty

Waffennacht

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Brutusmax1mus Opponent's penetration should be increased equally against both armor sets until impregnable starts getting Over penetrated, at which point your opponent is losing out on a lot.

Edit: impregnable is going to be superior in almost all cases. Brass will perform better against (dare I say) less PvP orientated builds

I really need to learn the equations, ty

Np

66 impen = 1% crit mitigation
660 resistance = 1% damage Reduction

Mitigation is multiplicative when dealing with everything but impen, meaning if your first source of mitigation is providing 75% damage mitigation, you'll receive only 25% of the next source. Etc. So if I had 75%, 25%, 10% each from a different source, I'll get 75% from first, then 25 x .25 = 6.25, 75+ 6.25 = 81.25, so 18.75% of the last 10%, so 10 x .1875 = 1.875, 1.875+ 81.25 = 83

So from 75%, 25% , and 10% I get 83% total mitigation.

If you wanna know anything else I'll try and help

@Brutusmax1mus

MurderMostFoul

Consider this when evaluating impregnable:

My understanding is that impen subtracts from the crit multiplier. So, given a base multiplier of 1.5, if your impen is providing a reduction of 0.3, that is not a 30% reduction to crit damage, but rather a 20% reduction, see:

(1.5 - 0.3)/1.5 = 0.8

Apply that to 50% crit build, and your effective mitigation becomes 10% from the 0.3 crit multiplier reduction provided by impen. Essentially, the overall mitigation provided by impen it's not quite as high as some of the math in this thread has suggested. (assuming my understanding regarding impen being applied through subtraction)

Waffennacht

According to @paulsimonps thread, critical damage taken is calculated (with buff fluff removed) is 1.5-(critical resistance/68/100)

So essentially what I posted before the (critical resistance/68/100) is a fancy way of saying approximately 68 impen = 1%

Or it's a really fancy way of saying 50% - your impen number/68

Or what I said earlier

Edit: it bothers me when people use the 1.5 etc to describe critical damage. Not everyone knows that you've simplified +50% into a multiplicative form. You can so easily say +50% and everyone knows exactly what you mean. Using the multiplicative simplified form seems like purposely using mathmatically arcane lingo to purposely confuse people so they are more impressed.