The Brass Soldier - WARNING You may become "Nervous"!

Waffennacht

@MurderMostFoul at work hard talking to people and this Shi...

Let's assume your Opponent's attack has a base damage of 1428 and deals +70% damage when it crits, which means the critical damage would be 1000 more damage

Let's now assume we have 4250 impen or 62.5% crit damage reduction from your Opponent's 70%,

Leaving your opponent a modifer of 7.5%

Meaning total damage done is base damage 1428 + the remaining 7.5%, meaning total damage becomes 1428+107.5

Or total damage done is1535

Waffennacht

Waffennacht wrote: »

@MurderMostFoul at work hard talking to people and this Shi...

Let's assume your Opponent's attack has a base damage of 1428 and deals +70% damage when it crits, which means the critical damage would be 1000 more damage

Let's now assume we have 4250 impen or 62.5% crit damage reduction from your Opponent's 70%,

Leaving your opponent a modifer of 7.5%

Meaning total damage done is base damage 1428 + the remaining 7.5%, meaning total damage becomes 1428+107.5

Or total damage done is1535

Here guys, show me with this @paulsimonps @MurderMostFoul

paulsimonps

Waffennacht wrote: »

@MurderMostFoul at work hard talking to people and this Shi...

Let's assume your Opponent's attack has a base damage of 1428 and deals +70% damage when it crits, which means the critical damage would be 1000 more damage

Let's now assume we have 4250 impen or 62.5% crit damage reduction from your Opponent's 70%,

Leaving your opponent a modifer of 7.5%

Meaning total damage done is base damage 1428 + the remaining 7.5%, meaning total damage becomes 1428+107.5

Or total damage done is1535

paulsimonps wrote: »

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1.5+(Critical Damage Buff #1/100)+(Critical Damage Buff #2/100)+(etc etc)-(Critical Resistance/68/100))

1075=1000*(1.5+(20/100)-(4250/68/100))

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1.5+(Critical Damage Buff #1/100)+(Critical Damage Buff #2/100)+(etc etc)-(Critical Resistance/68/100))

1535.1=1428*(1.5+(20/100)-(4250/68/100))

without resistance:

2427.6=1428*(1.5+(20/100))

2427-1535=892

So you would lower the damage by 892.

Waffennacht

Waffennacht wrote: »

1535

paulsimonps wrote: »

1535.1

I think I'm correct

paulsimonps

Waffennacht wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

1535

paulsimonps wrote: »

1535.1

I think I'm correct

Yup, cause ESO actually do not use decimals when it calculates, which is why you will get theorycrafting and in game numbers be slightly different if you counted it all on regular calculator. So that would be 1535.

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

1535

paulsimonps wrote: »

1535.1

I think I'm correct

Yeah we just didn’t know where you got that 1428 from. You started with crit bonus dmg (1000) in an effort to solve for crit bonus dmg.

But you cleared it up. I think we’re all on the same page, but murder and I are using 66 instead of 68 for the crit resistance conversion because, in my case at least, I’m lazy and like to be able to eyeball it lol

But anyway, to go aaallllllll the way back to the beginning, taking 1075 dmg instead of 1700 is roughly 37% reduction. Taking 1000 dmg instead of 1500 is a 33% reduction. Average it out to 35% which is the number you gave as your estimate of dmg reduction that started this whole thing...

*mike drop*

Waffennacht

paulsimonps wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

1535

paulsimonps wrote: »

1535.1

I think I'm correct

Yup, cause ESO actually do not use decimals when it calculates, which is why you will get theorycrafting and in game numbers be slightly different if you counted it all on regular calculator. So that would be 1535.

Now if you could explain @MurderMostFoul 's posts I'll be golden

Edit: it takes me a while, but once I get my mind wrapped around something I got it. I really appreciate everyone's patience

paulsimonps

Waffennacht wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

1535

paulsimonps wrote: »

1535.1

I think I'm correct

Yup, cause ESO actually do not use decimals when it calculates, which is why you will get theorycrafting and in game numbers be slightly different if you counted it all on regular calculator. So that would be 1535.

Now if you could explain @MurderMostFoul 's posts I'll be golden

Guessing you mean

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

According to @paulsimonps thread, critical damage taken is calculated (with buff fluff removed) is 1.5-(critical resistance/68/100)

So essentially what I posted before the (critical resistance/68/100) is a fancy way of saying approximately 68 impen = 1%

Or it's a really fancy way of saying 50% - your impen number/68

Or what I said earlier

Edit: it bothers me when people use the 1.5 etc to describe critical damage. Not everyone knows that you've simplified +50% into a multiplicative form. You can so easily say +50% and everyone knows exactly what you mean. Using the multiplicative simplified form seems like purposely using mathmatically arcane lingo to purposely confuse people so they are more impressed.

Using percents:

Critical hits normally do 150% damage. If your impen gives you 30% critical resistance, the net critical damage you take is 120%. So the effective damage reduction from your impen on critical hits is 20%, not 30%:

(150% - 30%)/150% = 80%

If the opponent has 50% crit chance, your overall damage reduction is roughly 10%. I only point this out because I think it is an important consideration for those trying to compare impregnable to Brass. Impen is not giving as much damage reduction as some prior post have suggested.

Looks like he is trying to compare Impregnable vs Fortified Brass, but comparing Critical Resistance with Spell and Physical resistance is not the easiest to do. I would not do that unless I knew the full build and all sources of mitigation involved. Now if you do want to make that comparison for your build you could just list all of your sources and use the formulas for full damage mitigation to test the differences for different scenarios. This is too messy of a comparison for my liking atm.

Waffennacht

paulsimonps wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

1535

paulsimonps wrote: »

1535.1

I think I'm correct

Yup, cause ESO actually do not use decimals when it calculates, which is why you will get theorycrafting and in game numbers be slightly different if you counted it all on regular calculator. So that would be 1535.

Now if you could explain @MurderMostFoul 's posts I'll be golden

Guessing you mean

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

According to @paulsimonps thread, critical damage taken is calculated (with buff fluff removed) is 1.5-(critical resistance/68/100)

So essentially what I posted before the (critical resistance/68/100) is a fancy way of saying approximately 68 impen = 1%

Or it's a really fancy way of saying 50% - your impen number/68

Or what I said earlier

Edit: it bothers me when people use the 1.5 etc to describe critical damage. Not everyone knows that you've simplified +50% into a multiplicative form. You can so easily say +50% and everyone knows exactly what you mean. Using the multiplicative simplified form seems like purposely using mathmatically arcane lingo to purposely confuse people so they are more impressed.

Using percents:

Critical hits normally do 150% damage. If your impen gives you 30% critical resistance, the net critical damage you take is 120%. So the effective damage reduction from your impen on critical hits is 20%, not 30%:

(150% - 30%)/150% = 80%

If the opponent has 50% crit chance, your overall damage reduction is roughly 10%. I only point this out because I think it is an important consideration for those trying to compare impregnable to Brass. Impen is not giving as much damage reduction as some prior post have suggested.

Looks like he is trying to compare Impregnable vs Fortified Brass, but comparing Critical Resistance with Spell and Physical resistance is not the easiest to do. I would not do that unless I knew the full build and all sources of mitigation involved. Now if you do want to make that comparison for your build you could just list all of your sources and use the formulas for full damage mitigation to test the differences for different scenarios. This is too messy of a comparison for my liking atm.

You deserve more stars

Thogard

Now let’s do the same thing for fortified brass. Because the more I think about it, the less and less I’m buying that 12.3% number. At least not as a comparable to impreg’s 22.3% net effect. Maybe comparable to impreg’s marginal benefit of 26.4% over just full impen

If every 660resist is 1% then brass’s net effect should be 5179 / 660 = 7.83%...

Marginal effect would be higher but then we have to compare it to impreg’s marginal effect as well (26.4% in the current example)

Waffennacht

Thogard wrote: »

Now let’s do the same thing for fortified brass. Because the more I think about it, the less and less I’m buying that 12.3% number. At least not as a comparable to impreg’s 22.3% net effect. Maybe comparable to impreg’s marginal benefit of 26.4% over just full impen

If every 660resist is 1% then brass’s net effect should be 5179 / 660 = 7.83%...

Marginal effect would be higher but then we have to compare it to impreg’s marginal effect as well (26.4% in the current example)

@Thogard don't forget the 3 and 4 resistance bonus

Thogard

Screw it, I’m jumping off the deep

Waffennacht wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Now let’s do the same thing for fortified brass. Because the more I think about it, the less and less I’m buying that 12.3% number. At least not as a comparable to impreg’s 22.3% net effect. Maybe comparable to impreg’s marginal benefit of 26.4% over just full impen

If every 660resist is 1% then brass’s net effect should be 5179 / 660 = 7.83%...

Marginal effect would be higher but then we have to compare it to impreg’s marginal effect as well (26.4% in the current example)

@Thogard don't forget the 3 and 4 resistance bonus

I’m actually going to intentionally ignore those. The best comparable we have for balance between stats and resists is the 2-4 piece set bonuses. They’re designed to be balanced, so if we don’t include brass’s 2-4 then we also won’t have to try to figure out how to factor in impreg’s stat bonuses.

Waft, what is your resist level if you slot something other than brass, fully buffed?

Waffennacht

Thogard wrote: »

Screw it, I’m jumping off the deep

Waffennacht wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Now let’s do the same thing for fortified brass. Because the more I think about it, the less and less I’m buying that 12.3% number. At least not as a comparable to impreg’s 22.3% net effect. Maybe comparable to impreg’s marginal benefit of 26.4% over just full impen

If every 660resist is 1% then brass’s net effect should be 5179 / 660 = 7.83%...

Marginal effect would be higher but then we have to compare it to impreg’s marginal effect as well (26.4% in the current example)

@Thogard don't forget the 3 and 4 resistance bonus

I’m actually going to intentionally ignore those. The best comparable we have for balance between stats and resists is the 2-4 piece set bonuses. They’re designed to be balanced, so if we don’t include brass’s 2-4 then we also won’t have to try to figure out how to factor in impreg’s stat bonuses.

Waft, what is your resist level if you slot something other than brass, fully buffed?

Oh man, I wish I knew off the top of my head, I'm at work interviewing people... I'll have to get back to you on that. Iirc medium armor sits around 10-12k resistance?

cschwingeb14_ESO

660 resist = 1% damage reduction only applies if you have 0 resist.

If you are at 49% resist, and you go to 50% resist by adding 660 resist, you are getting about 2% damage mitigation from that 660.

So if brass takes you from 38% mitigation to 50% mitigation:

Unmitigated attack - 10000
38% mitigated attack - 6200
50% mitigated attack - 5000

That's about 19.5% damage reduction from brass, if it gets you to cap. However, with penetration, you're unlikely to get the full value of that. But Brass is definitely giving you more overall damage reduction than 12.3%

Waffennacht

*Brain Explodes*

Wreuntzylla

My understanding is that these are straight damage calcs for a single hit, yes?

I get that some people are more worried about burst, but I only have problems against bursty players if I play poorly and run out of stam, or my health dips prior to the burst. I tend to prefer mitigation because it lowers the sustained damage whether or not a crit and I spend less time on the defensive bar.

So, I tend to overcap to lessen the randomizing effect of penetration. If I am going with mitigation, I'll use pariah with 1 chudan (and 1 pirate skelly if not 2h), everything else damage oriented (haven't tried brass yet). There is anecdotally a point at which mitigation is effective "enough" regardless of your opponents penetration and from my perspective it's a slight overcap but not by much. Also, the better players rarely focus on crit, and those are the only players that really count when building for PvP.

Of course, in primetime survivability increases your chance of being zerged down, so I usually only switch to a build with decent mitigation on off hours.

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Screw it, I’m jumping off the deep

Waffennacht wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Now let’s do the same thing for fortified brass. Because the more I think about it, the less and less I’m buying that 12.3% number. At least not as a comparable to impreg’s 22.3% net effect. Maybe comparable to impreg’s marginal benefit of 26.4% over just full impen

If every 660resist is 1% then brass’s net effect should be 5179 / 660 = 7.83%...

Marginal effect would be higher but then we have to compare it to impreg’s marginal effect as well (26.4% in the current example)

@Thogard don't forget the 3 and 4 resistance bonus

I’m actually going to intentionally ignore those. The best comparable we have for balance between stats and resists is the 2-4 piece set bonuses. They’re designed to be balanced, so if we don’t include brass’s 2-4 then we also won’t have to try to figure out how to factor in impreg’s stat bonuses.

Waft, what is your resist level if you slot something other than brass, fully buffed?

Oh man, I wish I knew off the top of my head, I'm at work interviewing people... I'll have to get back to you on that. Iirc medium armor sits around 10-12k resistance?

Yeah I’m at work too on my phone lol. All my best theory crafting is done at work... too busy playing when I’m home to actually spend time nerding out like right now.

Let’s use the screenshot that casparian posted for the brass build (26k), and well use a generic 17k for the non brass build.

Hypothetical attacker is Stam and has 20% bonus crit dmg and keeps fracture at 100% uptime. Hypothetical attacker has 1000 base PvP dmg (or 2k before battle spirit if you want to split hairs )

Brass, No crit:
1000 x [1 - ((26000 - 5280) / 660)] = 686.1
Brass, Crit:
[1000 x (1.5 + .2 - (1750/68/100))] x [1 - ((26000 - 5280) / 660)] = 989.7
Impreg, No crit
1000 x [1 - ((17000 - 5280) / 660)] = 822.4
Impreg, Crit:
1000 x (1.5 + .2 - (4250/68/100))] x [1 - ((1700 - 5280) / 660)] = 884.0

So then weight each one by the % of occurrence (crit chance or 1 - crit chance) and you have a basic framework.

But I don’t like those resist numbers for the purpose of comparison. What this is doing is comparing brass’s 3, 4, and 5 piece bonuses against just impreg’s 5 piece. I would rather factor out the 2-4 piece resists of brass so that I can also ignore the 2-4 piece of impreg... because under this comparison, impreg will hit harder and have more mag for purifies.

paulsimonps

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

660 resist = 1% damage reduction only applies if you have 0 resist.

If you are at 49% resist, and you go to 50% resist by adding 660 resist, you are getting about 2% damage mitigation from that 660.

So if brass takes you from 38% mitigation to 50% mitigation:

Unmitigated attack - 10000
38% mitigated attack - 6200
50% mitigated attack - 5000

That's about 19.5% damage reduction from brass, if it gets you to cap. However, with penetration, you're unlikely to get the full value of that. But Brass is definitely giving you more overall damage reduction than 12.3%

Please explain the bold part.

Thogard

paulsimonps wrote: »

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

660 resist = 1% damage reduction only applies if you have 0 resist.

If you are at 49% resist, and you go to 50% resist by adding 660 resist, you are getting about 2% damage mitigation from that 660.

So if brass takes you from 38% mitigation to 50% mitigation:

Unmitigated attack - 10000
38% mitigated attack - 6200
50% mitigated attack - 5000

That's about 19.5% damage reduction from brass, if it gets you to cap. However, with penetration, you're unlikely to get the full value of that. But Brass is definitely giving you more overall damage reduction than 12.3%

Please explain the bold part.

Bold part is marginal resist. If you go from taking 50 dmg to 49 dmg, you are taking 2% less dmg...

Waffennacht

I think I'll just use my Warden lmfao

Lexxypwns

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting ~25% of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

Minno

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Lexxypwns

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting ~25% of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

sorry, I went back and fixed the numbers, I hastily posted that from my phone and got home and re-ran the numbers.

Minno

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting ~25% of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

sorry, I went back and fixed the numbers, I hastily posted that from my phone and got home and re-ran the numbers.

Oh I wasnt checking the numbers, I was curious how one can factor in crit chance. Want to see if it's better to run 80% crit DMG at various crit chances or 70%/60%.

Sunburnt_Penguin

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

No, because he would already be dealing the base damage of the crits if they didn’t crit.

If someone deals 100k base damage over the course of the fight but has 56% crit% and 60% crit mod, the total damage done (assuming an equal damage distribution) would be 133.6k which is 33.6% damage from crits.

Thogard

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

Minno

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

So when you say "weigh" I assume you calculate crit chance after crit DMG in your example? Sorry for the question spam lol.

Thogard

Minno wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

So when you say "weigh" I assume you calculate crit chance after crit DMG in your example? Sorry for the question spam lol.

Yeah so if there’s a 60% crit chance, just multiply the crit dmg number there by 60% and the regular dmg number there by 40%

That’ll get you the expected value.

As for how useful that number is in a game where burst is everything... I dunno.

Brutusmax1mus

So trans/ impreg is 68%crit damage mitigation? Essentially making crits with a modifier under 1.7x equal to a regular attack?

Minno

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Can I just address this “good players don’t focus on crit” line?

5 light and 5 medium both add 10% crit. CP system adds 12%. Major crit buff adds another 10%. Base of 20%.

This means most light/medium builds are running AT LEAST 52%. A single line of crit on your armor pushes that to 56.

Now, minimum CHD modifier is 1.5(1.6 for NB/Templar) and you usually add several % in elfborn, but let’s use 1.6 so we have an example of a Templar with no intentional investment into crit chance or damage. He is getting over half of his damage from criticals.

@Wreuntzylla

How do we factor in crit chance with crit DMG? Is there an equation we can reference? (I assume this was covered under Asayre?)

Read my next to last post

So when you say "weigh" I assume you calculate crit chance after crit DMG in your example? Sorry for the question spam lol.

Yeah so if there’s a 60% crit chance, just multiply the crit dmg number there by 60% and the regular dmg number there by 40%

That’ll get you the expected value.

As for how useful that number is in a game where burst is everything... I dunno.

Right on!

Normally I agree with you regarding burst, but in the case of templars our damn spamable is a channel and our DPS boost mechanic is a proc based off that spamable. So it's arguably important to know how much your jabs can crit along with burning light (and how many times your enemy can crit themselves with unstable core ).