PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

GaunterODim · October 2017

Dont forget that gilliams calculations in his magdk video on how much effective regen the battleroar passive gives used an average of 3.21 Ultimate generation per second, so the generation of a pve (mag) dk. If you spec more into ultimate regen (eg bloodspawn or werewolf hide) that value of 'effective class regen' does of course increase a lot. (Thinking of pvp in that matter)

Thats why I would want to see the dks ressource management buffed in another way. For example via cost reduction, regen bonus in general or basicly just something that disarms the brutal ressource drain, that comes from the whip. the difference between the morphs was absolutely gigantic in ressource management.

Dont think that stam dks struggle too much with ressources, but magdks definetely need some help.
A stam dk is my first char and main and having played basicly only magdk before morrowind, I knew immediately that the overkill ressource nerfs would make me have to put my magdk in the garage. Sad about that.

Dont mind necronyteub17_ESO, just saw his 'feedback' in the nightblade thread and hes basicly hating people and pointing in the air with empty accusations and doesnt point out anything.

Minno · October 2017

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

People don't run that build because it isn't particularly effective as a solo/small-scale build. I don't know what group sizes you run that build in, but at a certain number of people you can kind of run whatever you want and the class/build weaknesses can be compensated by the group. But once you reach a certain group size, assuming you want to add the most you can to the group make up, you need to start asking yourself do you bring anything to the table that another class can't do better.

My group size is usually my self and @Minno so two (And sometimes Makkir The Stormcaller will play with us when he isn't on console) so 3 people mostly and yes it most certainly is effective IF you know how to play it. Its not as easy as Sword and Board, but its far more powerful...i beat 2 EP max CP level Mag DK's last night in a 2v1 with that build....and both of those guys were using Sword and Board....yeah you can't just hold block all the time but you don't need to if you play it right.

with 24k Physical, 25k Spell Resist, 2.8k SD, 2100 Crit resist, 39kish max magicka, and 3000+ Mag recovery buffed, im not squishy by any means, and I can still Talon and control people without being killed while not blocking...I can perform the traditional tank DK role of control while dishing out very high damage and being pretty tanky... I can also heal very well, and even stack close to 20k worth of damage shields if i want to try and feel like a Sorc. Yes, im stuck with Mist form for mobility and I have to get close, but thats ok...Empowering Chains is a hidden gem for small group play, Ferious Leap is just money(i hit two guys in BG the other night for like 19k it was an instant kill Leap @Minno laughed hard about it)

So much potential for DK's if folks would just open their minds and drop Sword and Board...im actually set up to bypass block completely and layering 7-8 DOTS on another Mag DK while he holds block spamming Coagulating Blood and 1 second later back down to 20% health is beautiful...The synergy with Fire staff is ridic...a 100% increased chance for Ardent Flame to apply Burning as long as Destro Staff is equipped, Burning status was buffed like 100% in the amount of damage it does, having a Fire Staff ability slotted makes my Flame Lash hit 8% harder, if your willing to play risk and wear BSW you can pretty much always get.

Yes i give up 10% survivability for about a 70% increase in damage output its so worth it..and Destro+ Resto gives you options to flex slot things,Stack Shields, + Mist, Layer Mutagen, Blessing of Restoration, etc. your not going to tank 10 people, because you don't need to0...Your role in a 2-4 man group is to assit in control(Talons/Fossilize), and layer Dots and burn people as quick as possible and it does that role very well.

in order to play a Destro/Resto Pyromage MagDK in pvp you have to re-think what you think about how the class function...DK don't have to jsut be tanks...many new armor sets since One Tam have left the old Pyromancer set up from 1.x overlooked by many.

I think a majority of cyro is still playing in 2015, thinking about balance for 2015, and generally wanting it to be 2014 launch day all over again. Not that that's negative, 2014 was a fun year for this game.

I'm even considering finding a way to build my Templar without purge it's that expensive to cast. Some might think I'm crazy, but then again I am.

Templars/DKs fail not only because zos doesn't understand how the players are using the classes, but they fail because they don't have the media outlook that sorcs/nightblades/wardens have through streamers. We aren't sexy or flashy, and we have certain limitations other classes take for granted. And those limitations are hard to describe in words but not many people are putting up videos or builds these days not to mention feedback or bug videos for our classes.

In the end I agree, there are certain sets worth exploring and ways to play the players should embrace. But also it comes down to DKs+Templars to also show videos of their failures/successes this way ZoS can really see how our classes stack in the Eco system.

Kilandros · October 2017

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

People don't run that build because it isn't particularly effective as a solo/small-scale build. I don't know what group sizes you run that build in, but at a certain number of people you can kind of run whatever you want and the class/build weaknesses can be compensated by the group. But once you reach a certain group size, assuming you want to add the most you can to the group make up, you need to start asking yourself do you bring anything to the table that another class can't do better.

My group size is usually my self and @Minno so two (And sometimes Makkir The Stormcaller will play with us when he isn't on console) so 3 people mostly and yes it most certainly is effective IF you know how to play it. Its not as easy as Sword and Board, but its far more powerful...i beat 2 EP max CP level Mag DK's last night in a 2v1 with that build....and both of those guys were using Sword and Board....yeah you can't just hold block all the time but you don't need to if you play it right.

with 24k Physical, 25k Spell Resist, 2.8k SD, 2100 Crit resist, 39kish max magicka, and 3000+ Mag recovery buffed, im not squishy by any means, and I can still Talon and control people without being killed while not blocking...I can perform the traditional tank DK role of control while dishing out very high damage and being pretty tanky... I can also heal very well, and even stack close to 20k worth of damage shields if i want to try and feel like a Sorc. Yes, im stuck with Mist form for mobility and I have to get close, but thats ok...Empowering Chains is a hidden gem for small group play, Ferious Leap is just money(i hit two guys in BG the other night for like 19k it was an instant kill Leap @Minno laughed hard about it)

So much potential for DK's if folks would just open their minds and drop Sword and Board...im actually set up to bypass block completely and layering 7-8 DOTS on another Mag DK while he holds block spamming Coagulating Blood and 1 second later back down to 20% health is beautiful...The synergy with Fire staff is ridic...a 100% increased chance for Ardent Flame to apply Burning as long as Destro Staff is equipped, Burning status was buffed like 100% in the amount of damage it does, having a Fire Staff ability slotted makes my Flame Lash hit 8% harder, if your willing to play risk and wear BSW you can pretty much always get.

Yes i give up 10% survivability for about a 70% increase in damage output its so worth it..and Destro+ Resto gives you options to flex slot things,Stack Shields, + Mist, Layer Mutagen, Blessing of Restoration, etc. your not going to tank 10 people, because you don't need to0...Your role in a 2-4 man group is to assit in control(Talons/Fossilize), and layer Dots and burn people as quick as possible and it does that role very well.

in order to play a Destro/Resto Pyromage MagDK in pvp you have to re-think what you think about how the class function...DK don't have to jsut be tanks...many new armor sets since One Tam have left the old Pyromancer set up from 1.x overlooked by many.

Ok well there you go. When you play that build you have a Templar with you who can provide sustain and offheals, and you sometimes have a Sorc who can get the KBs. That says more about the benefit of having a Magplar in a small-scale group then it does about the strengths of your build. I play Magplar as a second main (Rank 44) and I play him pretty much exclusively solo or in groups of 2-4 and its the Magplars that drive those groups. I hit insanely hard, I offheal. Only thing I don't do is CC and the DK or the NB or the Sorc can do that.

But if you tried that build solo, or if you tried it in a duo with another DK the build simply wouldn't work. I challenge you to try it. Most builds work well when you have a Magplar in tow. That speaks more to the strengths of duoing with a Magplar than it does about any particular build though.

EDIT: to expand a bit. The issue with DK class is it can't really stand it's ground without S/B, and it doesn't have a way to escape/reset the fight other than mist (which can't be spammed). So in a build like yours yeah you hit hard, but the minute you go up against a competent player, or a couple of competent players, you're basically committed for better or worse. You can't reset the fight like a Sorc or a NB. Templar has the same problem, but Templar has better sustain and honestly better damage.

It's cool that people think outside the box and put together those builds, but I've tried them all. Every single patch I try different builds and every single patch they fall short other than being one-hit wonders that can open hard but they have worse sustain than the other classes and no escape mechanism. And if you get outnumbered it's RIP pretty fast without S/B. If I spent my time in game trying to make edgy and cool 1vX vids (not saying you do, just saying) then maybe I'd run some build like that for the sake of putting together a highlight reel of me roflstomping max CPs who still haven't discovered impen. But those are highlight reels and they edit out the majority of fights which don't pan out well for glass canon Destro/Resto DKs.

I don't want to run S/B anymore than the next guy, but DK doesn't have any build-in defense left. Miss Chance is gone, Wings suck. I have a heal. Healing Ward is arguably better if you know you're going to get it. I can't purge, can't cloak, can't streak. If they want us to go toe-to-toe with other classes then they gotta give us something that let's us hang in there. When that happens the Destro/Resto will be viable again.

scipionumatia · October 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

@RinaldoGandolphi i want to address your sustain comment although not all of this wall of text is directed at you.

With perfect ulti gen (3 per second, no sets such as bloodspawn) DK gets ~290 recovery. Looking at a 100 cost ulti taking ~33 seconds to build (or ~16 potential regen ticks).

It's not bad even after the nerf, right? Well. That's the only sustain mechanic MagDKs have. Sure helping hands can give some decent stam sustain (990 for each earthen heart ability cast) but magicka sustain isn't all that great for magdk now seeing as i used to get like, 3-4k more magicka per battle roar.

DKs have no other sustain than the ones listed above. Compare that to other classes:

- Nightblade: magicka (and now stam) returned for killing an opponent (~2k iirc), 15% to all recovery, active sustain abilities such as siphoning attacks (4200 over 20 seconds)
- Warden: 4029 of their primary resource over 25 seconds (no cast cost). That alone is equivalent to magdk for primary resource sustain. 12% stam/magicka recovery. 250 stam/magicka for every green balance ability casted.
- Sorc: magicka back when pet dies (eh kinda whatever but including just to show), health/stam recov by 20%, reduce costs by 5%, 10% magicka recov, 4.5k magicka back when killing a target with their execute.

So wardens get more primary sustain by casting a free skill that also gives major sorcery and a small purge or major brutality on top of their recovery bonuses and other passives.

Nightblades get a lot of recovery and recovery for kills as well as a pretty good active ability for sustain (that alone gives more per second to primary stat than battle roar).

If a sorc kills just 1 person in 33 seconds theyve got the same magicka back than DK does for battle roar in the same time, if they manage to get 1 dark deal off they will get more magicka back than a dk does in 33 seconds with battleroar. Just 1 kill OR 1 cast of darkdeal in 33 seconds and they've got the sustain we do around battleroar.

I left out templar because i feel their sustain is not great either. They get some cost reduction and rune but it's meh compared to what the other 3 classes have.

This affects overall gameplay as DK (and templar) are often forced to run more sustain oriented sets and being the so called "stand your ground" classes the expend more of their secondary and tertiary resource pools than others. For example, most warden, nightblade, and sorc magicka builds don't need nearly the stam sustain that DK does (and templar).

Even some of the other class defining passives (such as 12% healing w/ draconic power) is nearly passed up by other classes. Nightblades get minor vitality w/ swallow soul and 3% global healing bonus for each siphoning ability. The same line that has some good damage/cc abilities also grants them their typical class ulti gen passive on top of additional ulti gen from pots.

Warden gets 2% healing for each green balance ability and access to major mending.

So that's not really special about DK.

What makes DK special then? Talons? Nah, warden has that and sorc has an even better version for most situations. Mobility? nope. Burst? Nope. Tanky passives? nope, templar and warden both have bonus resists and templar has bonus to block damage too. Chains? Nope, worse than every other gap closer in the game. DoTS? Nope, templar and warden both have a really strong DoTs even AoE dots. There's really not much that separates DK from other classes.

DKs just look cool and are fun to play. That's why people play DK. They don't play it for any edge, that's why none of the big streamers both to play it much or at all - and when they do it's short lived. Go watch Sypher (who was a very competent DK in the olden days). He played magdk yesterday and it was sad compared to what he can do on other classes.

I genuinely encourage people who want to call out DKs to go try one and tell me how it plays out for you. I play most classes or have in the past and DK is my main because it's fun and kills feel rewarding but not because it's strong or because it's unique at this point. I could (and do) play the same style as my magdk on other classes and be more effective.

It is funny... a guy trying a mDK asked for a set to use in the PvP combat section to avoid snare. I suggested hi him Wyrd tree and he told me he will never use that set because "it's not great on anything"...

When you have a class that has such a bad resource recover and no purge, you are forced to use crappy sets...

@Xvorg
haha that guy is me, yeah I main stam dk in pvp but mag dk is like playing a completely different class

Anti_Virus · October 2017

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

Hope they keep up the good work. You leaping , perma blocking damage dealing DK's need to be neutered even more.
Keep abusing your abilities in Cyro. Its helping your cause , sooo much

Go play DK. Let's see how that turns out for you.

Just a troll... he did the same in the NB section

Troll BS,
DK and NB BOTH have plenty of ability's and need NERFs. Both of those classes are the sole reason changes are being made to pvp.
Then they come here and cry because they get nerfed . Pick a build and be dps or tank , but NO class should have both the ability to do mass damage AND survive equally as well. THATS why most are upset with the pvp.
Dont sugar coat it like DK and NB are SOOO bad and need buffs. They need nerfed plain and simple. Take it however you want to look at it but changes are coming and ZoS knows it will fail if they dont tone dk and nb down.

Magicka Sorcerer?

krathos · October 2017

Guys and gals. Fear not. I've just received confirmation that DK IS BACK! (aesthetically)

Next crown crates.

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

People don't run that build because it isn't particularly effective as a solo/small-scale build. I don't know what group sizes you run that build in, but at a certain number of people you can kind of run whatever you want and the class/build weaknesses can be compensated by the group. But once you reach a certain group size, assuming you want to add the most you can to the group make up, you need to start asking yourself do you bring anything to the table that another class can't do better.

My group size is usually my self and @Minno so two (And sometimes Makkir The Stormcaller will play with us when he isn't on console) so 3 people mostly and yes it most certainly is effective IF you know how to play it. Its not as easy as Sword and Board, but its far more powerful...i beat 2 EP max CP level Mag DK's last night in a 2v1 with that build....and both of those guys were using Sword and Board....yeah you can't just hold block all the time but you don't need to if you play it right.

with 24k Physical, 25k Spell Resist, 2.8k SD, 2100 Crit resist, 39kish max magicka, and 3000+ Mag recovery buffed, im not squishy by any means, and I can still Talon and control people without being killed while not blocking...I can perform the traditional tank DK role of control while dishing out very high damage and being pretty tanky... I can also heal very well, and even stack close to 20k worth of damage shields if i want to try and feel like a Sorc. Yes, im stuck with Mist form for mobility and I have to get close, but thats ok...Empowering Chains is a hidden gem for small group play, Ferious Leap is just money(i hit two guys in BG the other night for like 19k it was an instant kill Leap @Minno laughed hard about it)

So much potential for DK's if folks would just open their minds and drop Sword and Board...im actually set up to bypass block completely and layering 7-8 DOTS on another Mag DK while he holds block spamming Coagulating Blood and 1 second later back down to 20% health is beautiful...The synergy with Fire staff is ridic...a 100% increased chance for Ardent Flame to apply Burning as long as Destro Staff is equipped, Burning status was buffed like 100% in the amount of damage it does, having a Fire Staff ability slotted makes my Flame Lash hit 8% harder, if your willing to play risk and wear BSW you can pretty much always get.

Yes i give up 10% survivability for about a 70% increase in damage output its so worth it..and Destro+ Resto gives you options to flex slot things,Stack Shields, + Mist, Layer Mutagen, Blessing of Restoration, etc. your not going to tank 10 people, because you don't need to0...Your role in a 2-4 man group is to assit in control(Talons/Fossilize), and layer Dots and burn people as quick as possible and it does that role very well.

in order to play a Destro/Resto Pyromage MagDK in pvp you have to re-think what you think about how the class function...DK don't have to jsut be tanks...many new armor sets since One Tam have left the old Pyromancer set up from 1.x overlooked by many.

Ok well there you go. When you play that build you have a Templar with you who can provide sustain and offheals, and you sometimes have a Sorc who can get the KBs. That says more about the benefit of having a Magplar in a small-scale group then it does about the strengths of your build. I play Magplar as a second main (Rank 44) and I play him pretty much exclusively solo or in groups of 2-4 and its the Magplars that drive those groups. I hit insanely hard, I offheal. Only thing I don't do is CC and the DK or the NB or the Sorc can do that.

But if you tried that build solo, or if you tried it in a duo with another DK the build simply wouldn't work. I challenge you to try it. Most builds work well when you have a Magplar in tow. That speaks more to the strengths of duoing with a Magplar than it does about any particular build though.

EDIT: to expand a bit. The issue with DK class is it can't really stand it's ground without S/B, and it doesn't have a way to escape/reset the fight other than mist (which can't be spammed). So in a build like yours yeah you hit hard, but the minute you go up against a competent player, or a couple of competent players, you're basically committed for better or worse. You can't reset the fight like a Sorc or a NB. Templar has the same problem, but Templar has better sustain and honestly better damage.

It's cool that people think outside the box and put together those builds, but I've tried them all. Every single patch I try different builds and every single patch they fall short other than being one-hit wonders that can open hard but they have worse sustain than the other classes and no escape mechanism. And if you get outnumbered it's RIP pretty fast without S/B. If I spent my time in game trying to make edgy and cool 1vX vids (not saying you do, just saying) then maybe I'd run some build like that for the sake of putting together a highlight reel of me roflstomping max CPs who still haven't discovered impen. But those are highlight reels and they edit out the majority of fights which don't pan out well for glass canon Destro/Resto DKs.

I don't want to run S/B anymore than the next guy, but DK doesn't have any build-in defense left. Miss Chance is gone, Wings suck. I have a heal. Healing Ward is arguably better if you know you're going to get it. I can't purge, can't cloak, can't streak. If they want us to go toe-to-toe with other classes then they gotta give us something that let's us hang in there. When that happens the Destro/Resto will be viable again.

A templar giving me sustain?

You do know @Minno doesn't run the traditional Templar build right?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371865/pvp-templar-build-frost-monk

He runs a 2H Frost Staff Prisoners Monk setup, he hardly even runs purify half the time.

I think you missed the part where i said "Last night i was ALONE roaming Cyrodiil on this build" and beat 2 max level Sword and Bored DK's in a 1vX....infact i had 6 1vX scenarious on the build last night and won 4 of them, one of them being a 3v1.... The ones i lost were due to my stupid mistakes, and the players in question actually being decent players. I would have lost those fights with Sword and Board too.

The beauty about this build is the flex spots it gives you. I can run Efficient Purge if i want to without gimping myself,(Thus having a purge) I can stack shields if I want to,(Dampen Magic + Healing Ward is very strong) I don't have Hardend Ward but Dragon Fire Scale is just as good when it comes to reflecting stuff, i know i still get poison injection dot, but i cna purge it if I want to.

Resource sustain is literally a non-issue thanks to very high mag recovery and sustain and Battle Roar is just icing....i have very good mitigation stats, far more then most other staff builds would have....Look i am so used to playing without Sword and Board, its just this style works for me....when i used to play Sword and Board it always left me unable to kill people due to lack of damage, the tankiness was good, but if you can't kill anyone whats the point? I try and make sure i don't put myself into position to be surrounded by multiple people.

thats the one thing I will forever thank Ezareth for....teaching me the importance of positioning....its the single most important thing in open world Cyrodiil to learn...there is no shame withdrawing from a fight you can't win...invisible pots with Major Expedition are a GREAT fall back to retreat out of a fight when mist Form ins't enough...how many Mag DK you see using those potions? Being zerged can be avoided with smart play....sure classes like Mag Sorc and Nightblade are more forgiving.

Billy the Kid once said " There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip"

What I am trying to say is by leaving the sword and board tank DK spec, it opens up avenues of escape as you can use invis pots instead of immovables, Mist From is much easier to spam with High recovery not based on Battle roar....sure its less survivable compared to Sword and Board, but this just means you have less room to make mistakes, not that's its impossible to play.

I am just saying that gear sets have re-opened previously closed doors on Mag DK builds. its not as good as 1.x but its very close when it comes to the Destro Staff build.

My build is my own twist on this, which i will try to get a build video out for so Mag DK that want to play something other then Sword and Board will have that option, i'll try to get some pvp footage as well. I haven't been able to really play as much lately as i'd l;ike to, but i'll try and get something together at some point.

Regardless, there are areas Mag DK does need some improvements, I think thats something we can both agree on.

Take care

Rinaldo

ak_pvp · October 2017

krathos wrote: »

Guys and gals. Fear not. I've just received confirmation that DK IS BACK! (aesthetically)

Next crown crates.

Maybe ZOS is doing balance in accordance to mounts, thats why sorc got love. Then warden with wild hunt, Next its DK, then shadow atro for NB, and nothing is my guess for templar, who will get evicted from their house.

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Guys and gals. Fear not. I've just received confirmation that DK IS BACK! (aesthetically)

Next crown crates.

Maybe ZOS is doing balance in accordance to mounts, thats why sorc got love. Then warden with wild hunt, Next its DK, then shadow atro for NB, and nothing is my guess for templar, who will get evicted from their house.

LOL!

those pictures....

Joy_Division · October 2017

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Mag DK's themselves are perfectly fine, the issue is easy access to purge skills.

DOT's are intended to be the "hard counter" to folks who like to hold block. However, both the Alliance War Purge and the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost. Also, Cloak should NOT suppress DOT damage...this is stupid...if a Nightblade can heal while he is cloaked, he shouldn't be able to supress damage too...this is the definition of poor game balance....a DOT should not reveal the Cloaked nightblade, but it shouldn't suppress the damage either.

Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable) and DK's will be in a good spot

I think you and every non-templar overestimate cleanse.

DKs were crazy OP at Launch when my Templar Purify was better than it is now, yes? That's not the issue. If a tempar purifies a dot you happen to cast as a DK, cast it again. Your DoT is cheaper and still actually does damage. The templar cannot sustain such a strategy. And if a templar waits to purge all those DoTs, don't pretend like the poor DK wasted her magicka because she didn't: by waiting the Templar still took damage from those DoTs and purifying does not heal the damage that was inflicted. Fraction of a cost? Embers 1350 + Burning Breath 2700 = 4050 cost. Purifying Ritual 3705 + 518 nerf (not satisfied you want more) = 4223.7 cost. Oh and those DoTs have already done damage to me.

And it's not like DKs have a monopoly on DoTs such that the class is the only one screwed over by cleanse. DKs use embers, burning breath, and talons. I use Reflective Light, Purifying Light, Jesus Beam.

Purify pisses you off as a DK and you want to get it nerfed? Fine, lobby the all-mighty nerf hammer Wrobel wields will impunity. Get him to eviscerate templars such that they suck so bad nobody will want to play them. Just don't get bent out of shape when the non-DKs get Wrobel to gut your class such that you start looking at Destiny 2 Youtube clips. Oh wait, he already did that.

Well then, I guess that how we devolved in ESO. The classes we play have been so eviscerated and struggle to do anything useful or distinctive, we'll just sit back and cheer when the nerfhammer comes down on anyone as long as it isn't us even though we know it will perpetuate the very problem all these nerfs have brought about in the first place: we have classes that are boring and frustrating to play.

@Joy_Division

You misunderstand me, and my post was cut short due to my work break being over. I don't want to nerf Templars, I want to BUFF them in areas they actually need such as:

1. Total Dark being changed from what it is now to an unblockable and undodgable CC ability that does a little bit of damage when broken out of, and a set amount when it expires.
2. Returning the Stun to Spear Shards and its morphs
3. Making Radiant Ward Shield size scale on Max Magicka or Max Stamina whichever is higher
4. Reverting the Nerf to Repentance
5. Reverting the nerf to Breath of Life.

Im sorry but all 5 of those changes are far better for the overall Templar toolkit then a 5 debuff purge, and those changes free Templars from being so bound to Sword and Board and Heavy Armor making them stronger with far larger build diversity. Yes, Extended Ritual is too strong, but as you point out, the rest of the Templar toolkit is weak and the changes above addresses those problems and puts Templars back where they should be compared to other classes.

You may not want to nerf templars, however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

...the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost ... Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable)

is sceaming to Wrobel that templars need to get nerfed.

It's a DK thread so I'm not going to explain why I highly doubt those buffs would change how Templars chose to defend themselves in Cyrodiil. Suffice it to say when people come into this thread and claim DKs are fine and have very powerful abilities, DKs are quick to point out how wrong they are and how, even with these supposedly strong skills, DKs still struggle and anyone who mained a DK would know.

OK, fair enough. But the same logic applies to Templars (and other classes). If non DKs overrate Wings, Talons, Whip, DoTs, etc., then DKs overrate Purify.

Dragath · October 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Mag DK's themselves are perfectly fine, the issue is easy access to purge skills.

DOT's are intended to be the "hard counter" to folks who like to hold block. However, both the Alliance War Purge and the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost. Also, Cloak should NOT suppress DOT damage...this is stupid...if a Nightblade can heal while he is cloaked, he shouldn't be able to supress damage too...this is the definition of poor game balance....a DOT should not reveal the Cloaked nightblade, but it shouldn't suppress the damage either.

Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable) and DK's will be in a good spot

I think you and every non-templar overestimate cleanse.

DKs were crazy OP at Launch when my Templar Purify was better than it is now, yes? That's not the issue. If a tempar purifies a dot you happen to cast as a DK, cast it again. Your DoT is cheaper and still actually does damage. The templar cannot sustain such a strategy. And if a templar waits to purge all those DoTs, don't pretend like the poor DK wasted her magicka because she didn't: by waiting the Templar still took damage from those DoTs and purifying does not heal the damage that was inflicted. Fraction of a cost? Embers 1350 + Burning Breath 2700 = 4050 cost. Purifying Ritual 3705 + 518 nerf (not satisfied you want more) = 4223.7 cost. Oh and those DoTs have already done damage to me.

And it's not like DKs have a monopoly on DoTs such that the class is the only one screwed over by cleanse. DKs use embers, burning breath, and talons. I use Reflective Light, Purifying Light, Jesus Beam.

Purify pisses you off as a DK and you want to get it nerfed? Fine, lobby the all-mighty nerf hammer Wrobel wields will impunity. Get him to eviscerate templars such that they suck so bad nobody will want to play them. Just don't get bent out of shape when the non-DKs get Wrobel to gut your class such that you start looking at Destiny 2 Youtube clips. Oh wait, he already did that.

Well then, I guess that how we devolved in ESO. The classes we play have been so eviscerated and struggle to do anything useful or distinctive, we'll just sit back and cheer when the nerfhammer comes down on anyone as long as it isn't us even though we know it will perpetuate the very problem all these nerfs have brought about in the first place: we have classes that are boring and frustrating to play.

@Joy_Division

You misunderstand me, and my post was cut short due to my work break being over. I don't want to nerf Templars, I want to BUFF them in areas they actually need such as:

1. Total Dark being changed from what it is now to an unblockable and undodgable CC ability that does a little bit of damage when broken out of, and a set amount when it expires.
2. Returning the Stun to Spear Shards and its morphs
3. Making Radiant Ward Shield size scale on Max Magicka or Max Stamina whichever is higher
4. Reverting the Nerf to Repentance
5. Reverting the nerf to Breath of Life.

Im sorry but all 5 of those changes are far better for the overall Templar toolkit then a 5 debuff purge, and those changes free Templars from being so bound to Sword and Board and Heavy Armor making them stronger with far larger build diversity. Yes, Extended Ritual is too strong, but as you point out, the rest of the Templar toolkit is weak and the changes above addresses those problems and puts Templars back where they should be compared to other classes.

You may not want to nerf templars, however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

...the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost ... Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable)

is sceaming to Wrobel that templars need to get nerfed.

It's a DK thread so I'm not going to explain why I highly doubt those buffs would change how Templars chose to defend themselves in Cyrodiil. Suffice it to say when people come into this thread and claim DKs are fine and have very powerful abilities, DKs are quick to point out how wrong they are and how, even with these supposedly strong skills, DKs still struggle and anyone who mained a DK would know.

OK, fair enough. But the same logic applies to Templars (and other classes). If non DKs overrate Wings, Talons, Whip, DoTs, etc., then DKs overrate Purify.

but purify isn't overrated.
i play mostly dk and temp, and purify negates so much damage, it's insane.
ever calculated how much damage you negate with it?
changing the whole purge mechanic would be a good idea, but too complicated for wrobel and his team. the really aren't very good at their job, and they might make it even worse.
implementing a mechanic that protects very important DoT skills would be much easier, and magDK is certainly in need of one.
changing purify in a way that doesn't nerf templars would also be quite easy. you can always increase healing numbers or implement risk/reward gameplay. first thing that comes to mind is something like "X amount of purged damage is received as healing over the next X seconds".

Minno · October 2017

Dragath wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Mag DK's themselves are perfectly fine, the issue is easy access to purge skills.

DOT's are intended to be the "hard counter" to folks who like to hold block. However, both the Alliance War Purge and the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost. Also, Cloak should NOT suppress DOT damage...this is stupid...if a Nightblade can heal while he is cloaked, he shouldn't be able to supress damage too...this is the definition of poor game balance....a DOT should not reveal the Cloaked nightblade, but it shouldn't suppress the damage either.

Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable) and DK's will be in a good spot

I think you and every non-templar overestimate cleanse.

DKs were crazy OP at Launch when my Templar Purify was better than it is now, yes? That's not the issue. If a tempar purifies a dot you happen to cast as a DK, cast it again. Your DoT is cheaper and still actually does damage. The templar cannot sustain such a strategy. And if a templar waits to purge all those DoTs, don't pretend like the poor DK wasted her magicka because she didn't: by waiting the Templar still took damage from those DoTs and purifying does not heal the damage that was inflicted. Fraction of a cost? Embers 1350 + Burning Breath 2700 = 4050 cost. Purifying Ritual 3705 + 518 nerf (not satisfied you want more) = 4223.7 cost. Oh and those DoTs have already done damage to me.

And it's not like DKs have a monopoly on DoTs such that the class is the only one screwed over by cleanse. DKs use embers, burning breath, and talons. I use Reflective Light, Purifying Light, Jesus Beam.

Purify pisses you off as a DK and you want to get it nerfed? Fine, lobby the all-mighty nerf hammer Wrobel wields will impunity. Get him to eviscerate templars such that they suck so bad nobody will want to play them. Just don't get bent out of shape when the non-DKs get Wrobel to gut your class such that you start looking at Destiny 2 Youtube clips. Oh wait, he already did that.

Well then, I guess that how we devolved in ESO. The classes we play have been so eviscerated and struggle to do anything useful or distinctive, we'll just sit back and cheer when the nerfhammer comes down on anyone as long as it isn't us even though we know it will perpetuate the very problem all these nerfs have brought about in the first place: we have classes that are boring and frustrating to play.

@Joy_Division

You misunderstand me, and my post was cut short due to my work break being over. I don't want to nerf Templars, I want to BUFF them in areas they actually need such as:

1. Total Dark being changed from what it is now to an unblockable and undodgable CC ability that does a little bit of damage when broken out of, and a set amount when it expires.
2. Returning the Stun to Spear Shards and its morphs
3. Making Radiant Ward Shield size scale on Max Magicka or Max Stamina whichever is higher
4. Reverting the Nerf to Repentance
5. Reverting the nerf to Breath of Life.

Im sorry but all 5 of those changes are far better for the overall Templar toolkit then a 5 debuff purge, and those changes free Templars from being so bound to Sword and Board and Heavy Armor making them stronger with far larger build diversity. Yes, Extended Ritual is too strong, but as you point out, the rest of the Templar toolkit is weak and the changes above addresses those problems and puts Templars back where they should be compared to other classes.

You may not want to nerf templars, however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

...the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost ... Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable)

is sceaming to Wrobel that templars need to get nerfed.

It's a DK thread so I'm not going to explain why I highly doubt those buffs would change how Templars chose to defend themselves in Cyrodiil. Suffice it to say when people come into this thread and claim DKs are fine and have very powerful abilities, DKs are quick to point out how wrong they are and how, even with these supposedly strong skills, DKs still struggle and anyone who mained a DK would know.

OK, fair enough. But the same logic applies to Templars (and other classes). If non DKs overrate Wings, Talons, Whip, DoTs, etc., then DKs overrate Purify.

but purify isn't overrated.
i play mostly dk and temp, and purify negates so much damage, it's insane.
ever calculated how much damage you negate with it?
changing the whole purge mechanic would be a good idea, but too complicated for wrobel and his team. the really aren't very good at their job, and they might make it even worse.
implementing a mechanic that protects very important DoT skills would be much easier, and magDK is certainly in need of one.
changing purify in a way that doesn't nerf templars would also be quite easy. you can always increase healing numbers or implement risk/reward gameplay. first thing that comes to mind is something like "X amount of purged damage is received as healing over the next X seconds".

I don't think the dev team is incompetent, they are just under a heavy load of stress. Games industry is notorious for causing "crunch" which is a special term for squeezing out production with minimal monetary spending.

Sadly all companies do this, and no one want to hire new workers to help alleviate this stress. So worker burnout is high, turnaround is slower, and you have job openings no one wants to take because they know the company will not be looking out for their interests.

On top of owning the skills and combat system, wrobel has to make time to sit down and read our feedback. Or someone else does it and it turns into a giant game of phone where info gets retranslated into something we never suggested.

Dragath · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Mag DK's themselves are perfectly fine, the issue is easy access to purge skills.

DOT's are intended to be the "hard counter" to folks who like to hold block. However, both the Alliance War Purge and the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost. Also, Cloak should NOT suppress DOT damage...this is stupid...if a Nightblade can heal while he is cloaked, he shouldn't be able to supress damage too...this is the definition of poor game balance....a DOT should not reveal the Cloaked nightblade, but it shouldn't suppress the damage either.

Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable) and DK's will be in a good spot

I think you and every non-templar overestimate cleanse.

DKs were crazy OP at Launch when my Templar Purify was better than it is now, yes? That's not the issue. If a tempar purifies a dot you happen to cast as a DK, cast it again. Your DoT is cheaper and still actually does damage. The templar cannot sustain such a strategy. And if a templar waits to purge all those DoTs, don't pretend like the poor DK wasted her magicka because she didn't: by waiting the Templar still took damage from those DoTs and purifying does not heal the damage that was inflicted. Fraction of a cost? Embers 1350 + Burning Breath 2700 = 4050 cost. Purifying Ritual 3705 + 518 nerf (not satisfied you want more) = 4223.7 cost. Oh and those DoTs have already done damage to me.

And it's not like DKs have a monopoly on DoTs such that the class is the only one screwed over by cleanse. DKs use embers, burning breath, and talons. I use Reflective Light, Purifying Light, Jesus Beam.

Purify pisses you off as a DK and you want to get it nerfed? Fine, lobby the all-mighty nerf hammer Wrobel wields will impunity. Get him to eviscerate templars such that they suck so bad nobody will want to play them. Just don't get bent out of shape when the non-DKs get Wrobel to gut your class such that you start looking at Destiny 2 Youtube clips. Oh wait, he already did that.

Well then, I guess that how we devolved in ESO. The classes we play have been so eviscerated and struggle to do anything useful or distinctive, we'll just sit back and cheer when the nerfhammer comes down on anyone as long as it isn't us even though we know it will perpetuate the very problem all these nerfs have brought about in the first place: we have classes that are boring and frustrating to play.

@Joy_Division

You misunderstand me, and my post was cut short due to my work break being over. I don't want to nerf Templars, I want to BUFF them in areas they actually need such as:

1. Total Dark being changed from what it is now to an unblockable and undodgable CC ability that does a little bit of damage when broken out of, and a set amount when it expires.
2. Returning the Stun to Spear Shards and its morphs
3. Making Radiant Ward Shield size scale on Max Magicka or Max Stamina whichever is higher
4. Reverting the Nerf to Repentance
5. Reverting the nerf to Breath of Life.

Im sorry but all 5 of those changes are far better for the overall Templar toolkit then a 5 debuff purge, and those changes free Templars from being so bound to Sword and Board and Heavy Armor making them stronger with far larger build diversity. Yes, Extended Ritual is too strong, but as you point out, the rest of the Templar toolkit is weak and the changes above addresses those problems and puts Templars back where they should be compared to other classes.

You may not want to nerf templars, however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

...the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost ... Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable)

is sceaming to Wrobel that templars need to get nerfed.

It's a DK thread so I'm not going to explain why I highly doubt those buffs would change how Templars chose to defend themselves in Cyrodiil. Suffice it to say when people come into this thread and claim DKs are fine and have very powerful abilities, DKs are quick to point out how wrong they are and how, even with these supposedly strong skills, DKs still struggle and anyone who mained a DK would know.

OK, fair enough. But the same logic applies to Templars (and other classes). If non DKs overrate Wings, Talons, Whip, DoTs, etc., then DKs overrate Purify.

but purify isn't overrated.
i play mostly dk and temp, and purify negates so much damage, it's insane.
ever calculated how much damage you negate with it?
changing the whole purge mechanic would be a good idea, but too complicated for wrobel and his team. the really aren't very good at their job, and they might make it even worse.
implementing a mechanic that protects very important DoT skills would be much easier, and magDK is certainly in need of one.
changing purify in a way that doesn't nerf templars would also be quite easy. you can always increase healing numbers or implement risk/reward gameplay. first thing that comes to mind is something like "X amount of purged damage is received as healing over the next X seconds".

I don't think the dev team is incompetent, they are just under a heavy load of stress. Games industry is notorious for causing "crunch" which is a special term for squeezing out production with minimal monetary spending.

Sadly all companies do this, and no one want to hire new workers to help alleviate this stress. So worker burnout is high, turnaround is slower, and you have job openings no one wants to take because they know the company will not be looking out for their interests.

On top of owning the skills and combat system, wrobel has to make time to sit down and read our feedback. Or someone else does it and it turns into a giant game of phone where info gets retranslated into something we never suggested.

i wouldn't go as far as calling them incompetent.
there are several issues that happen over and over. problems that could be avoided with a little bit more insight.
the amount of changes is not too low, the quality and insight is.
every industry has stressful jobs, especially in leading positions. i can sympathize, but it's no excuse.
i don't want to go to much into an offtopic discussion, because the main goal of the thread is much more important, but just looking into other dev studios, indi or otherwise, give some good examples how to fix a lot of the problems.

Minno · October 2017

Dragath wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Mag DK's themselves are perfectly fine, the issue is easy access to purge skills.

DOT's are intended to be the "hard counter" to folks who like to hold block. However, both the Alliance War Purge and the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost. Also, Cloak should NOT suppress DOT damage...this is stupid...if a Nightblade can heal while he is cloaked, he shouldn't be able to supress damage too...this is the definition of poor game balance....a DOT should not reveal the Cloaked nightblade, but it shouldn't suppress the damage either.

Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable) and DK's will be in a good spot

I think you and every non-templar overestimate cleanse.

DKs were crazy OP at Launch when my Templar Purify was better than it is now, yes? That's not the issue. If a tempar purifies a dot you happen to cast as a DK, cast it again. Your DoT is cheaper and still actually does damage. The templar cannot sustain such a strategy. And if a templar waits to purge all those DoTs, don't pretend like the poor DK wasted her magicka because she didn't: by waiting the Templar still took damage from those DoTs and purifying does not heal the damage that was inflicted. Fraction of a cost? Embers 1350 + Burning Breath 2700 = 4050 cost. Purifying Ritual 3705 + 518 nerf (not satisfied you want more) = 4223.7 cost. Oh and those DoTs have already done damage to me.

And it's not like DKs have a monopoly on DoTs such that the class is the only one screwed over by cleanse. DKs use embers, burning breath, and talons. I use Reflective Light, Purifying Light, Jesus Beam.

Purify pisses you off as a DK and you want to get it nerfed? Fine, lobby the all-mighty nerf hammer Wrobel wields will impunity. Get him to eviscerate templars such that they suck so bad nobody will want to play them. Just don't get bent out of shape when the non-DKs get Wrobel to gut your class such that you start looking at Destiny 2 Youtube clips. Oh wait, he already did that.

Well then, I guess that how we devolved in ESO. The classes we play have been so eviscerated and struggle to do anything useful or distinctive, we'll just sit back and cheer when the nerfhammer comes down on anyone as long as it isn't us even though we know it will perpetuate the very problem all these nerfs have brought about in the first place: we have classes that are boring and frustrating to play.

@Joy_Division

You misunderstand me, and my post was cut short due to my work break being over. I don't want to nerf Templars, I want to BUFF them in areas they actually need such as:

1. Total Dark being changed from what it is now to an unblockable and undodgable CC ability that does a little bit of damage when broken out of, and a set amount when it expires.
2. Returning the Stun to Spear Shards and its morphs
3. Making Radiant Ward Shield size scale on Max Magicka or Max Stamina whichever is higher
4. Reverting the Nerf to Repentance
5. Reverting the nerf to Breath of Life.

Im sorry but all 5 of those changes are far better for the overall Templar toolkit then a 5 debuff purge, and those changes free Templars from being so bound to Sword and Board and Heavy Armor making them stronger with far larger build diversity. Yes, Extended Ritual is too strong, but as you point out, the rest of the Templar toolkit is weak and the changes above addresses those problems and puts Templars back where they should be compared to other classes.

You may not want to nerf templars, however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

...the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost ... Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable)

is sceaming to Wrobel that templars need to get nerfed.

It's a DK thread so I'm not going to explain why I highly doubt those buffs would change how Templars chose to defend themselves in Cyrodiil. Suffice it to say when people come into this thread and claim DKs are fine and have very powerful abilities, DKs are quick to point out how wrong they are and how, even with these supposedly strong skills, DKs still struggle and anyone who mained a DK would know.

OK, fair enough. But the same logic applies to Templars (and other classes). If non DKs overrate Wings, Talons, Whip, DoTs, etc., then DKs overrate Purify.

but purify isn't overrated.
i play mostly dk and temp, and purify negates so much damage, it's insane.
ever calculated how much damage you negate with it?
changing the whole purge mechanic would be a good idea, but too complicated for wrobel and his team. the really aren't very good at their job, and they might make it even worse.
implementing a mechanic that protects very important DoT skills would be much easier, and magDK is certainly in need of one.
changing purify in a way that doesn't nerf templars would also be quite easy. you can always increase healing numbers or implement risk/reward gameplay. first thing that comes to mind is something like "X amount of purged damage is received as healing over the next X seconds".

I don't think the dev team is incompetent, they are just under a heavy load of stress. Games industry is notorious for causing "crunch" which is a special term for squeezing out production with minimal monetary spending.

Sadly all companies do this, and no one want to hire new workers to help alleviate this stress. So worker burnout is high, turnaround is slower, and you have job openings no one wants to take because they know the company will not be looking out for their interests.

On top of owning the skills and combat system, wrobel has to make time to sit down and read our feedback. Or someone else does it and it turns into a giant game of phone where info gets retranslated into something we never suggested.

i wouldn't go as far as calling them incompetent.
there are several issues that happen over and over. problems that could be avoided with a little bit more insight.
the amount of changes is not too low, the quality and insight is.
every industry has stressful jobs, especially in leading positions. i can sympathize, but it's no excuse.
i don't want to go to much into an offtopic discussion, because the main goal of the thread is much more important, but just looking into other dev studios, indi or otherwise, give some good examples how to fix a lot of the problems.

I mean other players are calling them incompetent.
Certainly no excuse, but we can't exactly use it to force them to make changes we want either.

Point of my comment is to suggest that we all accept they will be rolling with certain changes and to work with zos on finding solutions to problems with as less complexity as possible.

For example Templars got unstable core buffed, but only after realizing zos was not going to move from their decision to make it a cc immunity spell. So we presented our case why the cc immunity sucks for storms that don't actually cc.

There is still work to be done.

How do DKs want to see stonefist more attractive on their bar? Why isn't it used? Would a certain change make it functional and offer a unique effect enough to justify selecting it over petrify?

They will be shaking up these classes over time; we will have to accept it but do our best to offer suggestions that are new.

Xvorg · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Mag DK's themselves are perfectly fine, the issue is easy access to purge skills.

DOT's are intended to be the "hard counter" to folks who like to hold block. However, both the Alliance War Purge and the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost. Also, Cloak should NOT suppress DOT damage...this is stupid...if a Nightblade can heal while he is cloaked, he shouldn't be able to supress damage too...this is the definition of poor game balance....a DOT should not reveal the Cloaked nightblade, but it shouldn't suppress the damage either.

Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable) and DK's will be in a good spot

I think you and every non-templar overestimate cleanse.

DKs were crazy OP at Launch when my Templar Purify was better than it is now, yes? That's not the issue. If a tempar purifies a dot you happen to cast as a DK, cast it again. Your DoT is cheaper and still actually does damage. The templar cannot sustain such a strategy. And if a templar waits to purge all those DoTs, don't pretend like the poor DK wasted her magicka because she didn't: by waiting the Templar still took damage from those DoTs and purifying does not heal the damage that was inflicted. Fraction of a cost? Embers 1350 + Burning Breath 2700 = 4050 cost. Purifying Ritual 3705 + 518 nerf (not satisfied you want more) = 4223.7 cost. Oh and those DoTs have already done damage to me.

And it's not like DKs have a monopoly on DoTs such that the class is the only one screwed over by cleanse. DKs use embers, burning breath, and talons. I use Reflective Light, Purifying Light, Jesus Beam.

Purify pisses you off as a DK and you want to get it nerfed? Fine, lobby the all-mighty nerf hammer Wrobel wields will impunity. Get him to eviscerate templars such that they suck so bad nobody will want to play them. Just don't get bent out of shape when the non-DKs get Wrobel to gut your class such that you start looking at Destiny 2 Youtube clips. Oh wait, he already did that.

Well then, I guess that how we devolved in ESO. The classes we play have been so eviscerated and struggle to do anything useful or distinctive, we'll just sit back and cheer when the nerfhammer comes down on anyone as long as it isn't us even though we know it will perpetuate the very problem all these nerfs have brought about in the first place: we have classes that are boring and frustrating to play.

@Joy_Division

You misunderstand me, and my post was cut short due to my work break being over. I don't want to nerf Templars, I want to BUFF them in areas they actually need such as:

1. Total Dark being changed from what it is now to an unblockable and undodgable CC ability that does a little bit of damage when broken out of, and a set amount when it expires.
2. Returning the Stun to Spear Shards and its morphs
3. Making Radiant Ward Shield size scale on Max Magicka or Max Stamina whichever is higher
4. Reverting the Nerf to Repentance
5. Reverting the nerf to Breath of Life.

Im sorry but all 5 of those changes are far better for the overall Templar toolkit then a 5 debuff purge, and those changes free Templars from being so bound to Sword and Board and Heavy Armor making them stronger with far larger build diversity. Yes, Extended Ritual is too strong, but as you point out, the rest of the Templar toolkit is weak and the changes above addresses those problems and puts Templars back where they should be compared to other classes.

You may not want to nerf templars, however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

...the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost ... Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable)

is sceaming to Wrobel that templars need to get nerfed.

It's a DK thread so I'm not going to explain why I highly doubt those buffs would change how Templars chose to defend themselves in Cyrodiil. Suffice it to say when people come into this thread and claim DKs are fine and have very powerful abilities, DKs are quick to point out how wrong they are and how, even with these supposedly strong skills, DKs still struggle and anyone who mained a DK would know.

OK, fair enough. But the same logic applies to Templars (and other classes). If non DKs overrate Wings, Talons, Whip, DoTs, etc., then DKs overrate Purify.

but purify isn't overrated.
i play mostly dk and temp, and purify negates so much damage, it's insane.
ever calculated how much damage you negate with it?
changing the whole purge mechanic would be a good idea, but too complicated for wrobel and his team. the really aren't very good at their job, and they might make it even worse.
implementing a mechanic that protects very important DoT skills would be much easier, and magDK is certainly in need of one.
changing purify in a way that doesn't nerf templars would also be quite easy. you can always increase healing numbers or implement risk/reward gameplay. first thing that comes to mind is something like "X amount of purged damage is received as healing over the next X seconds".

I don't think the dev team is incompetent, they are just under a heavy load of stress. Games industry is notorious for causing "crunch" which is a special term for squeezing out production with minimal monetary spending.

Sadly all companies do this, and no one want to hire new workers to help alleviate this stress. So worker burnout is high, turnaround is slower, and you have job openings no one wants to take because they know the company will not be looking out for their interests.

On top of owning the skills and combat system, wrobel has to make time to sit down and read our feedback. Or someone else does it and it turns into a giant game of phone where info gets retranslated into something we never suggested.

i wouldn't go as far as calling them incompetent.
there are several issues that happen over and over. problems that could be avoided with a little bit more insight.
the amount of changes is not too low, the quality and insight is.
every industry has stressful jobs, especially in leading positions. i can sympathize, but it's no excuse.
i don't want to go to much into an offtopic discussion, because the main goal of the thread is much more important, but just looking into other dev studios, indi or otherwise, give some good examples how to fix a lot of the problems.

I mean other players are calling them incompetent.
Certainly no excuse, but we can't exactly use it to force them to make changes we want either.

Point of my comment is to suggest that we all accept they will be rolling with certain changes and to work with zos on finding solutions to problems with as less complexity as possible.

For example Templars got unstable core buffed, but only after realizing zos was not going to move from their decision to make it a cc immunity spell. So we presented our case why the cc immunity sucks for storms that don't actually cc.

There is still work to be done.

How do DKs want to see stonefist more attractive on their bar? Why isn't it used? Would a certain change make it functional and offer a unique effect enough to justify selecting it over petrify?

They will be shaking up these classes over time; we will have to accept it but do our best to offer suggestions that are new.

The idea about stonefist has been around since the second era... make it an execute.

Of curse, ZoS won't do it since it will be exactly the same as Impale

Minno · October 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Mag DK's themselves are perfectly fine, the issue is easy access to purge skills.

DOT's are intended to be the "hard counter" to folks who like to hold block. However, both the Alliance War Purge and the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost. Also, Cloak should NOT suppress DOT damage...this is stupid...if a Nightblade can heal while he is cloaked, he shouldn't be able to supress damage too...this is the definition of poor game balance....a DOT should not reveal the Cloaked nightblade, but it shouldn't suppress the damage either.

Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable) and DK's will be in a good spot

I think you and every non-templar overestimate cleanse.

DKs were crazy OP at Launch when my Templar Purify was better than it is now, yes? That's not the issue. If a tempar purifies a dot you happen to cast as a DK, cast it again. Your DoT is cheaper and still actually does damage. The templar cannot sustain such a strategy. And if a templar waits to purge all those DoTs, don't pretend like the poor DK wasted her magicka because she didn't: by waiting the Templar still took damage from those DoTs and purifying does not heal the damage that was inflicted. Fraction of a cost? Embers 1350 + Burning Breath 2700 = 4050 cost. Purifying Ritual 3705 + 518 nerf (not satisfied you want more) = 4223.7 cost. Oh and those DoTs have already done damage to me.

And it's not like DKs have a monopoly on DoTs such that the class is the only one screwed over by cleanse. DKs use embers, burning breath, and talons. I use Reflective Light, Purifying Light, Jesus Beam.

Purify pisses you off as a DK and you want to get it nerfed? Fine, lobby the all-mighty nerf hammer Wrobel wields will impunity. Get him to eviscerate templars such that they suck so bad nobody will want to play them. Just don't get bent out of shape when the non-DKs get Wrobel to gut your class such that you start looking at Destiny 2 Youtube clips. Oh wait, he already did that.

Well then, I guess that how we devolved in ESO. The classes we play have been so eviscerated and struggle to do anything useful or distinctive, we'll just sit back and cheer when the nerfhammer comes down on anyone as long as it isn't us even though we know it will perpetuate the very problem all these nerfs have brought about in the first place: we have classes that are boring and frustrating to play.

@Joy_Division

You misunderstand me, and my post was cut short due to my work break being over. I don't want to nerf Templars, I want to BUFF them in areas they actually need such as:

1. Total Dark being changed from what it is now to an unblockable and undodgable CC ability that does a little bit of damage when broken out of, and a set amount when it expires.
2. Returning the Stun to Spear Shards and its morphs
3. Making Radiant Ward Shield size scale on Max Magicka or Max Stamina whichever is higher
4. Reverting the Nerf to Repentance
5. Reverting the nerf to Breath of Life.

Im sorry but all 5 of those changes are far better for the overall Templar toolkit then a 5 debuff purge, and those changes free Templars from being so bound to Sword and Board and Heavy Armor making them stronger with far larger build diversity. Yes, Extended Ritual is too strong, but as you point out, the rest of the Templar toolkit is weak and the changes above addresses those problems and puts Templars back where they should be compared to other classes.

You may not want to nerf templars, however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

...the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost ... Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable)

is sceaming to Wrobel that templars need to get nerfed.

It's a DK thread so I'm not going to explain why I highly doubt those buffs would change how Templars chose to defend themselves in Cyrodiil. Suffice it to say when people come into this thread and claim DKs are fine and have very powerful abilities, DKs are quick to point out how wrong they are and how, even with these supposedly strong skills, DKs still struggle and anyone who mained a DK would know.

OK, fair enough. But the same logic applies to Templars (and other classes). If non DKs overrate Wings, Talons, Whip, DoTs, etc., then DKs overrate Purify.

but purify isn't overrated.
i play mostly dk and temp, and purify negates so much damage, it's insane.
ever calculated how much damage you negate with it?
changing the whole purge mechanic would be a good idea, but too complicated for wrobel and his team. the really aren't very good at their job, and they might make it even worse.
implementing a mechanic that protects very important DoT skills would be much easier, and magDK is certainly in need of one.
changing purify in a way that doesn't nerf templars would also be quite easy. you can always increase healing numbers or implement risk/reward gameplay. first thing that comes to mind is something like "X amount of purged damage is received as healing over the next X seconds".

I don't think the dev team is incompetent, they are just under a heavy load of stress. Games industry is notorious for causing "crunch" which is a special term for squeezing out production with minimal monetary spending.

Sadly all companies do this, and no one want to hire new workers to help alleviate this stress. So worker burnout is high, turnaround is slower, and you have job openings no one wants to take because they know the company will not be looking out for their interests.

On top of owning the skills and combat system, wrobel has to make time to sit down and read our feedback. Or someone else does it and it turns into a giant game of phone where info gets retranslated into something we never suggested.

i wouldn't go as far as calling them incompetent.
there are several issues that happen over and over. problems that could be avoided with a little bit more insight.
the amount of changes is not too low, the quality and insight is.
every industry has stressful jobs, especially in leading positions. i can sympathize, but it's no excuse.
i don't want to go to much into an offtopic discussion, because the main goal of the thread is much more important, but just looking into other dev studios, indi or otherwise, give some good examples how to fix a lot of the problems.

I mean other players are calling them incompetent.
Certainly no excuse, but we can't exactly use it to force them to make changes we want either.

Point of my comment is to suggest that we all accept they will be rolling with certain changes and to work with zos on finding solutions to problems with as less complexity as possible.

For example Templars got unstable core buffed, but only after realizing zos was not going to move from their decision to make it a cc immunity spell. So we presented our case why the cc immunity sucks for storms that don't actually cc.

There is still work to be done.

How do DKs want to see stonefist more attractive on their bar? Why isn't it used? Would a certain change make it functional and offer a unique effect enough to justify selecting it over petrify?

They will be shaking up these classes over time; we will have to accept it but do our best to offer suggestions that are new.

The idea about stonefist has been around since the second era... make it an execute.

Of curse, ZoS won't do it since it will be exactly the same as Impale

Well if DKs have been asking for an execute but zos hadn't given it, you have to assume that DKs will never get an execute.

I don't really play DK, but I know they had mis chance like us templars. What if stonefist gave mischance with a modified percentage?

If the second morph still heals, should it also give minor resists? Minor protection?

Xvorg · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Mag DK's themselves are perfectly fine, the issue is easy access to purge skills.

DOT's are intended to be the "hard counter" to folks who like to hold block. However, both the Alliance War Purge and the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost. Also, Cloak should NOT suppress DOT damage...this is stupid...if a Nightblade can heal while he is cloaked, he shouldn't be able to supress damage too...this is the definition of poor game balance....a DOT should not reveal the Cloaked nightblade, but it shouldn't suppress the damage either.

Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable) and DK's will be in a good spot

I think you and every non-templar overestimate cleanse.

DKs were crazy OP at Launch when my Templar Purify was better than it is now, yes? That's not the issue. If a tempar purifies a dot you happen to cast as a DK, cast it again. Your DoT is cheaper and still actually does damage. The templar cannot sustain such a strategy. And if a templar waits to purge all those DoTs, don't pretend like the poor DK wasted her magicka because she didn't: by waiting the Templar still took damage from those DoTs and purifying does not heal the damage that was inflicted. Fraction of a cost? Embers 1350 + Burning Breath 2700 = 4050 cost. Purifying Ritual 3705 + 518 nerf (not satisfied you want more) = 4223.7 cost. Oh and those DoTs have already done damage to me.

And it's not like DKs have a monopoly on DoTs such that the class is the only one screwed over by cleanse. DKs use embers, burning breath, and talons. I use Reflective Light, Purifying Light, Jesus Beam.

Purify pisses you off as a DK and you want to get it nerfed? Fine, lobby the all-mighty nerf hammer Wrobel wields will impunity. Get him to eviscerate templars such that they suck so bad nobody will want to play them. Just don't get bent out of shape when the non-DKs get Wrobel to gut your class such that you start looking at Destiny 2 Youtube clips. Oh wait, he already did that.

Well then, I guess that how we devolved in ESO. The classes we play have been so eviscerated and struggle to do anything useful or distinctive, we'll just sit back and cheer when the nerfhammer comes down on anyone as long as it isn't us even though we know it will perpetuate the very problem all these nerfs have brought about in the first place: we have classes that are boring and frustrating to play.

@Joy_Division

You misunderstand me, and my post was cut short due to my work break being over. I don't want to nerf Templars, I want to BUFF them in areas they actually need such as:

1. Total Dark being changed from what it is now to an unblockable and undodgable CC ability that does a little bit of damage when broken out of, and a set amount when it expires.
2. Returning the Stun to Spear Shards and its morphs
3. Making Radiant Ward Shield size scale on Max Magicka or Max Stamina whichever is higher
4. Reverting the Nerf to Repentance
5. Reverting the nerf to Breath of Life.

Im sorry but all 5 of those changes are far better for the overall Templar toolkit then a 5 debuff purge, and those changes free Templars from being so bound to Sword and Board and Heavy Armor making them stronger with far larger build diversity. Yes, Extended Ritual is too strong, but as you point out, the rest of the Templar toolkit is weak and the changes above addresses those problems and puts Templars back where they should be compared to other classes.

You may not want to nerf templars, however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

...the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost ... Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable)

is sceaming to Wrobel that templars need to get nerfed.

It's a DK thread so I'm not going to explain why I highly doubt those buffs would change how Templars chose to defend themselves in Cyrodiil. Suffice it to say when people come into this thread and claim DKs are fine and have very powerful abilities, DKs are quick to point out how wrong they are and how, even with these supposedly strong skills, DKs still struggle and anyone who mained a DK would know.

OK, fair enough. But the same logic applies to Templars (and other classes). If non DKs overrate Wings, Talons, Whip, DoTs, etc., then DKs overrate Purify.

but purify isn't overrated.
i play mostly dk and temp, and purify negates so much damage, it's insane.
ever calculated how much damage you negate with it?
changing the whole purge mechanic would be a good idea, but too complicated for wrobel and his team. the really aren't very good at their job, and they might make it even worse.
implementing a mechanic that protects very important DoT skills would be much easier, and magDK is certainly in need of one.
changing purify in a way that doesn't nerf templars would also be quite easy. you can always increase healing numbers or implement risk/reward gameplay. first thing that comes to mind is something like "X amount of purged damage is received as healing over the next X seconds".

I don't think the dev team is incompetent, they are just under a heavy load of stress. Games industry is notorious for causing "crunch" which is a special term for squeezing out production with minimal monetary spending.

Sadly all companies do this, and no one want to hire new workers to help alleviate this stress. So worker burnout is high, turnaround is slower, and you have job openings no one wants to take because they know the company will not be looking out for their interests.

On top of owning the skills and combat system, wrobel has to make time to sit down and read our feedback. Or someone else does it and it turns into a giant game of phone where info gets retranslated into something we never suggested.

i wouldn't go as far as calling them incompetent.
there are several issues that happen over and over. problems that could be avoided with a little bit more insight.
the amount of changes is not too low, the quality and insight is.
every industry has stressful jobs, especially in leading positions. i can sympathize, but it's no excuse.
i don't want to go to much into an offtopic discussion, because the main goal of the thread is much more important, but just looking into other dev studios, indi or otherwise, give some good examples how to fix a lot of the problems.

I mean other players are calling them incompetent.
Certainly no excuse, but we can't exactly use it to force them to make changes we want either.

Point of my comment is to suggest that we all accept they will be rolling with certain changes and to work with zos on finding solutions to problems with as less complexity as possible.

For example Templars got unstable core buffed, but only after realizing zos was not going to move from their decision to make it a cc immunity spell. So we presented our case why the cc immunity sucks for storms that don't actually cc.

There is still work to be done.

How do DKs want to see stonefist more attractive on their bar? Why isn't it used? Would a certain change make it functional and offer a unique effect enough to justify selecting it over petrify?

They will be shaking up these classes over time; we will have to accept it but do our best to offer suggestions that are new.

The idea about stonefist has been around since the second era... make it an execute.

Of curse, ZoS won't do it since it will be exactly the same as Impale

Well if DKs have been asking for an execute but zos hadn't given it, you have to assume that DKs will never get an execute.

I don't really play DK, but I know they had mis chance like us templars. What if stonefist gave mischance with a modified percentage?

If the second morph still heals, should it also give minor resists? Minor protection?

I don't think a miss chance would make it appeal. The skill on itself has several included in the passives and the skill like minor brut and minor ressolve which are stam passives... though its still a magicka skill doing magick dmg.

A couple patches ago when it was a physical dmg skill, it was interesting for archer DK focussed on burst through focused aim. It made perfect sense even costing magicka because it refunded some stam through helping hands. The rotation was quite simple Aim -> LA -> Stonefist . I've even had a build planned on it. Saddly, ZoS change its dmg to magic.

Anyway, all Earthen heart tree is useless right now... considering it was the best support tree some years ago...

scipionumatia · October 2017

@RinaldoGandolphi
On your staff build, what sets do you run? sword and board on the back bar?

Dragath · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Mag DK's themselves are perfectly fine, the issue is easy access to purge skills.

DOT's are intended to be the "hard counter" to folks who like to hold block. However, both the Alliance War Purge and the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost. Also, Cloak should NOT suppress DOT damage...this is stupid...if a Nightblade can heal while he is cloaked, he shouldn't be able to supress damage too...this is the definition of poor game balance....a DOT should not reveal the Cloaked nightblade, but it shouldn't suppress the damage either.

Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable) and DK's will be in a good spot

I think you and every non-templar overestimate cleanse.

DKs were crazy OP at Launch when my Templar Purify was better than it is now, yes? That's not the issue. If a tempar purifies a dot you happen to cast as a DK, cast it again. Your DoT is cheaper and still actually does damage. The templar cannot sustain such a strategy. And if a templar waits to purge all those DoTs, don't pretend like the poor DK wasted her magicka because she didn't: by waiting the Templar still took damage from those DoTs and purifying does not heal the damage that was inflicted. Fraction of a cost? Embers 1350 + Burning Breath 2700 = 4050 cost. Purifying Ritual 3705 + 518 nerf (not satisfied you want more) = 4223.7 cost. Oh and those DoTs have already done damage to me.

And it's not like DKs have a monopoly on DoTs such that the class is the only one screwed over by cleanse. DKs use embers, burning breath, and talons. I use Reflective Light, Purifying Light, Jesus Beam.

Purify pisses you off as a DK and you want to get it nerfed? Fine, lobby the all-mighty nerf hammer Wrobel wields will impunity. Get him to eviscerate templars such that they suck so bad nobody will want to play them. Just don't get bent out of shape when the non-DKs get Wrobel to gut your class such that you start looking at Destiny 2 Youtube clips. Oh wait, he already did that.

Well then, I guess that how we devolved in ESO. The classes we play have been so eviscerated and struggle to do anything useful or distinctive, we'll just sit back and cheer when the nerfhammer comes down on anyone as long as it isn't us even though we know it will perpetuate the very problem all these nerfs have brought about in the first place: we have classes that are boring and frustrating to play.

@Joy_Division

You misunderstand me, and my post was cut short due to my work break being over. I don't want to nerf Templars, I want to BUFF them in areas they actually need such as:

1. Total Dark being changed from what it is now to an unblockable and undodgable CC ability that does a little bit of damage when broken out of, and a set amount when it expires.
2. Returning the Stun to Spear Shards and its morphs
3. Making Radiant Ward Shield size scale on Max Magicka or Max Stamina whichever is higher
4. Reverting the Nerf to Repentance
5. Reverting the nerf to Breath of Life.

Im sorry but all 5 of those changes are far better for the overall Templar toolkit then a 5 debuff purge, and those changes free Templars from being so bound to Sword and Board and Heavy Armor making them stronger with far larger build diversity. Yes, Extended Ritual is too strong, but as you point out, the rest of the Templar toolkit is weak and the changes above addresses those problems and puts Templars back where they should be compared to other classes.

You may not want to nerf templars, however

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

...the Templar Purge are simply OP for their cost ... Templars can remove 5 DOTS in one Global Cooldown for a fraction of the cost it costs a DK to apply the said DOT's. thats a BIG problem for class balance.

Address the OP Purge abilities in the game(you should still be able to purge, but not 5 effects at once, not for such a low cost, and most certinaly not spamable)

is sceaming to Wrobel that templars need to get nerfed.

It's a DK thread so I'm not going to explain why I highly doubt those buffs would change how Templars chose to defend themselves in Cyrodiil. Suffice it to say when people come into this thread and claim DKs are fine and have very powerful abilities, DKs are quick to point out how wrong they are and how, even with these supposedly strong skills, DKs still struggle and anyone who mained a DK would know.

OK, fair enough. But the same logic applies to Templars (and other classes). If non DKs overrate Wings, Talons, Whip, DoTs, etc., then DKs overrate Purify.

but purify isn't overrated.
i play mostly dk and temp, and purify negates so much damage, it's insane.
ever calculated how much damage you negate with it?
changing the whole purge mechanic would be a good idea, but too complicated for wrobel and his team. the really aren't very good at their job, and they might make it even worse.
implementing a mechanic that protects very important DoT skills would be much easier, and magDK is certainly in need of one.
changing purify in a way that doesn't nerf templars would also be quite easy. you can always increase healing numbers or implement risk/reward gameplay. first thing that comes to mind is something like "X amount of purged damage is received as healing over the next X seconds".

I don't think the dev team is incompetent, they are just under a heavy load of stress. Games industry is notorious for causing "crunch" which is a special term for squeezing out production with minimal monetary spending.

Sadly all companies do this, and no one want to hire new workers to help alleviate this stress. So worker burnout is high, turnaround is slower, and you have job openings no one wants to take because they know the company will not be looking out for their interests.

On top of owning the skills and combat system, wrobel has to make time to sit down and read our feedback. Or someone else does it and it turns into a giant game of phone where info gets retranslated into something we never suggested.

i wouldn't go as far as calling them incompetent.
there are several issues that happen over and over. problems that could be avoided with a little bit more insight.
the amount of changes is not too low, the quality and insight is.
every industry has stressful jobs, especially in leading positions. i can sympathize, but it's no excuse.
i don't want to go to much into an offtopic discussion, because the main goal of the thread is much more important, but just looking into other dev studios, indi or otherwise, give some good examples how to fix a lot of the problems.

I mean other players are calling them incompetent.
Certainly no excuse, but we can't exactly use it to force them to make changes we want either.

Point of my comment is to suggest that we all accept they will be rolling with certain changes and to work with zos on finding solutions to problems with as less complexity as possible.

For example Templars got unstable core buffed, but only after realizing zos was not going to move from their decision to make it a cc immunity spell. So we presented our case why the cc immunity sucks for storms that don't actually cc.

There is still work to be done.

How do DKs want to see stonefist more attractive on their bar? Why isn't it used? Would a certain change make it functional and offer a unique effect enough to justify selecting it over petrify?

They will be shaking up these classes over time; we will have to accept it but do our best to offer suggestions that are new.

i absolutely agree with you.
it's just a tad bit frustrating to see them miss the mark over and over again.
there are a lot of good suggestions to fix most of the problems. granted, going through all that stuff is a lot of work, but that's exactly why these threads exist. it's a good compilation of different opinions and solutions.
i also think it would go a long way to get some good, informed, level-headed voices in the community and include them in an ongoing discussion about changes and the overall balance and health of the game.
Gilliam is a prime example. he is knowledgeable, smart, level-headed, can think outside of the box, open for constructive criticism and most importantly, passionate enough about the game to really care whats going on.
there's one problem, and that's my main concern for all of us.
changes are inevitable, and we all have to adapt. i assume it's a fair assumption to say, everyone that is still here, did that already several times and accepts that as a fact.
the thing is, though, adapting to bad decisions will always leave you with a bad taste in your mouth. it just drains the excitement for the game and long term, will kill your fun/interest in the game, and i don't want that for anyone of us.

Again, i'm very much offtopic on the Feedback for DKs thread, so let me suggest something for ZOS:
mDKs really could need a passive that decreases cost of skills or increase our resource gain. you could also just decrease the base cost of the skills, if you wouldn't mind the different base costs in comparison to other classes / class skills. don't just increase the numbers on Battle Roar, give us a separate passive that works independently from it.
mDKs also need some kind of protection for their damage over time skills. i'd be okay with a simple solution like "Ability X, Y and Z can not be dispelled", but i'd rather have some more exciting options like "if dispelled, does X amount of damage (which could be even more than the skill would have done in the first place, to act as a sort of DoT protection)", "if dispelled, the dragon knight does X% increased damage over the next Y seconds" or "if dispelled, the DoT you dispelled leaves a mark (non-dispellable) on you, increasing the damage of the application of this ability by X%, stacking up Y times".
everything that makes dispelling/cleansing a little bit harder and more of a risk/reward option would be fine by me.

Dubhliam · October 2017

What is really funny is that ESO already has that "if dispelled" mechanic incorporated into a spell.

But hey... nobody thought it would make a nice DK passive.

Malthorne · October 2017

Even though I’m in favor of this, I don’t think ZOS would implement a “Damage” mechanic on purged DoTs. So..what would you guys think of a resource return mechanic when a DoT is purged?

For instance, “x% magicka or stamina cost is returned when an Ardent Flame ability is cleansed” or something of that nature.

Idk ..I’m not sure if this idea has been proposed(ever) or if it’s even good but I’m just trying to think outside the box I guess.

Ragnarock41 · October 2017

GaunterODim wrote: »

Dont think that stam dks struggle too much with ressources, but magdks definetely need some help.
A stam dk is my first char and main and having played basicly only magdk before morrowind, I knew immediately that the overkill ressource nerfs would make me have to put my magdk in the garage. Sad about that.

Actually magDK sustain is somewhat buffed in morrowind,especially compared to stamDK, which got a massive nerf from the same changes.
Flat values in battle roar means a 15k stamina magDk and a 50k stamina stamDK will get the SAME returns from battle roar.
But obviously 6k stamina return is gone with 2 or 3 skill for a stamDK, while for a magDK it is half of their stamina bar.
With helping hands,constution and other flat returns magDK sustain is sitting at a better spot.
Only issue is that they now need more magicka sustain, which is easier than stamina sustain honestly, IF you have more than 1500 magicka regen you should be fine.

GeorgeBlack · October 2017

Malthorne wrote: »

Even though I’m in favor of this, I don’t think ZOS would implement a “Damage” mechanic on purged DoTs. So..what would you guys think of a resource return mechanic when a DoT is purged?

For instance, “x% magicka or stamina cost is returned when an Ardent Flame ability is cleansed” or something of that nature.

Idk ..I’m not sure if this idea has been proposed(ever) or if it’s even good but I’m just trying to think outside the box I guess.

The problem is that PvP revolves around taking advantage of an opportunity to unload damage on your enemy and kill them.

ak_pvp · October 2017

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

GaunterODim wrote: »

Dont think that stam dks struggle too much with ressources, but magdks definetely need some help.
A stam dk is my first char and main and having played basicly only magdk before morrowind, I knew immediately that the overkill ressource nerfs would make me have to put my magdk in the garage. Sad about that.

Actually magDK sustain is somewhat buffed in morrowind,especially compared to stamDK, which got a massive nerf from the same changes.
Flat values in battle roar means a 15k stamina magDk and a 50k stamina stamDK will get the SAME returns from battle roar.
But obviously 6k stamina return is gone with 2 or 3 skill for a stamDK, while for a magDK it is half of their stamina bar.
With helping hands,constution and other flat returns magDK sustain is sitting at a better spot.
Only issue is that they now need more magicka sustain, which is easier than stamina sustain honestly, IF you have more than 1500 magicka regen you should be fine.

MagDK usually runs s/b. HA restors stam. Though stam is more valuable to a mag dk than mag is to a stamDK, stam has the better sustain.

Ragnarock41 · October 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

GaunterODim wrote: »

Dont think that stam dks struggle too much with ressources, but magdks definetely need some help.
A stam dk is my first char and main and having played basicly only magdk before morrowind, I knew immediately that the overkill ressource nerfs would make me have to put my magdk in the garage. Sad about that.

Actually magDK sustain is somewhat buffed in morrowind,especially compared to stamDK, which got a massive nerf from the same changes.
Flat values in battle roar means a 15k stamina magDk and a 50k stamina stamDK will get the SAME returns from battle roar.
But obviously 6k stamina return is gone with 2 or 3 skill for a stamDK, while for a magDK it is half of their stamina bar.
With helping hands,constution and other flat returns magDK sustain is sitting at a better spot.
Only issue is that they now need more magicka sustain, which is easier than stamina sustain honestly, IF you have more than 1500 magicka regen you should be fine.

MagDK usually runs s/b. HA restors stam. Though stam is more valuable to a mag dk than mag is to a stamDK, stam has the better sustain.

MagDk is miles ahead of stamDk in PvP. Im watcing all the stamDk mains slowly disappear as I see more and more almost unkillable magDK players around. They are still minority compared to all the Nbs and sorcs but still, magDK is now the dominant toon in PvP, and stamDK is the more versatile one because obviously stam has more mobility.

For PvE MagDK needs desperate buffs. Maybe an aoe inferno or anything really.
For PvP the last thing I want for MagDk is sustain buffs tho. Not without some serious nerfs to permablocking first.

Savos_Saren · October 2017

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

GaunterODim wrote: »

Dont think that stam dks struggle too much with ressources, but magdks definetely need some help.
A stam dk is my first char and main and having played basicly only magdk before morrowind, I knew immediately that the overkill ressource nerfs would make me have to put my magdk in the garage. Sad about that.

Actually magDK sustain is somewhat buffed in morrowind,especially compared to stamDK, which got a massive nerf from the same changes.
Flat values in battle roar means a 15k stamina magDk and a 50k stamina stamDK will get the SAME returns from battle roar.
But obviously 6k stamina return is gone with 2 or 3 skill for a stamDK, while for a magDK it is half of their stamina bar.
With helping hands,constution and other flat returns magDK sustain is sitting at a better spot.
Only issue is that they now need more magicka sustain, which is easier than stamina sustain honestly, IF you have more than 1500 magicka regen you should be fine.

MagDK usually runs s/b. HA restors stam. Though stam is more valuable to a mag dk than mag is to a stamDK, stam has the better sustain.

MagDk is miles ahead of stamDk in PvP. Im watcing all the stamDk mains slowly disappear as I see more and more almost unkillable magDK players around. They are still minority compared to all the Nbs and sorcs but still, magDK is now the dominant toon in PvP, and stamDK is the more versatile one because obviously stam has more mobility.

For PvE MagDK needs desperate buffs. Maybe an aoe inferno or anything really.
For PvP the last thing I want for MagDk is sustain buffs tho. Not without some serious nerfs to permablocking first.

I see the exact opposite, actually. I see less and less mDKs and more permablock stamDKs running the SnB ulti with Seventh Legion and 2H.

This update, however, should change a lot of that. Perhaps it'll mix up the DK a bit... now that Shuffle is no longer available for heavy armor and heavy armor got a slight debuff.

I foresee, though, that stamDKs will start to run 5 medium Fortified Brass/Armor Master with a proc weapon damage set. (7th legion, ravager, briarheart). SnB on one bar and 2H on the other.

Ragnarock41 · October 2017

jaburns wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

GaunterODim wrote: »

Dont think that stam dks struggle too much with ressources, but magdks definetely need some help.
A stam dk is my first char and main and having played basicly only magdk before morrowind, I knew immediately that the overkill ressource nerfs would make me have to put my magdk in the garage. Sad about that.

Actually magDK sustain is somewhat buffed in morrowind,especially compared to stamDK, which got a massive nerf from the same changes.
Flat values in battle roar means a 15k stamina magDk and a 50k stamina stamDK will get the SAME returns from battle roar.
But obviously 6k stamina return is gone with 2 or 3 skill for a stamDK, while for a magDK it is half of their stamina bar.
With helping hands,constution and other flat returns magDK sustain is sitting at a better spot.
Only issue is that they now need more magicka sustain, which is easier than stamina sustain honestly, IF you have more than 1500 magicka regen you should be fine.

MagDK usually runs s/b. HA restors stam. Though stam is more valuable to a mag dk than mag is to a stamDK, stam has the better sustain.

MagDk is miles ahead of stamDk in PvP. Im watcing all the stamDk mains slowly disappear as I see more and more almost unkillable magDK players around. They are still minority compared to all the Nbs and sorcs but still, magDK is now the dominant toon in PvP, and stamDK is the more versatile one because obviously stam has more mobility.

For PvE MagDK needs desperate buffs. Maybe an aoe inferno or anything really.
For PvP the last thing I want for MagDk is sustain buffs tho. Not without some serious nerfs to permablocking first.

I see the exact opposite, actually. I see less and less mDKs and more permablock stamDKs running the SnB ulti with Seventh Legion and 2H.

This update, however, should change a lot of that. Perhaps it'll mix up the DK a bit... now that Shuffle is no longer available for heavy armor and heavy armor got a slight debuff.

I foresee, though, that stamDKs will start to run 5 medium Fortified Brass/Armor Master with a proc weapon damage set. (7th legion, ravager, briarheart). SnB on one bar and 2H on the other.

Nah.. They will just drop rally and use forward momentum instead. I can guarantee you will see a lot less scary/good stamDks and more 30k+ hp stamDK tanks that do nothing but hold block.

and If you think anyone will ever be successfull on medium armor Dk you're in for a big suprise friend.
mark my words, StamDK will be the new underdog soon.

Ragnarock41 · October 2017

krathos wrote: »

Guys and gals. Fear not. I've just received confirmation that DK IS BACK! (aesthetically)

Next crown crates.

I wanna buy these so bad but at the same time I don't wanna pay another cent to zos.
Not after what they did to my class.
or... maybe I will make an exception for the skin

GeorgeBlack · October 2017

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Guys and gals. Fear not. I've just received confirmation that DK IS BACK! (aesthetically)

Next crown crates.

I wanna buy these so bad but at the same time I don't wanna pay another cent to zos.
Not after what they did to my class.
or... maybe I will make an exception for the skin

I'd buy the mount. But I won't.

Ragnarock41 · October 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Guys and gals. Fear not. I've just received confirmation that DK IS BACK! (aesthetically)

Next crown crates.

I wanna buy these so bad but at the same time I don't wanna pay another cent to zos.
Not after what they did to my class.
or... maybe I will make an exception for the skin

I'd buy the mount. But I won't.

Not buying these stuff is probably the best way to provide your ''feedback'' to zos.
Now that I think about it. You're right.