So I've lurked for a long time in all of the threads surrounding the various proposals to revitalize pvp, and I wanted to take some time to - as the title says - collect them all together in the hopes that developers will finally offer some kind of comment. Perhaps I'm being naive or unreasonably hopeful, but given that I've uninstalled the game several times over only to come right back to it, I have to personally try and call developer attention to the game I truly and obsessively love. ESO, I wish I knew how to quit you.
My aim is to organize all the threads and comments into categories while linking back to the original thread. I'll admit that my laziness and desire for fidelity to these original and well-thought out ideas has prevented me from summarizing them, and all I've really done is some minor editing. Laziness has also resulted in not linking comment quotes that weren't from original post and poster, so forgive me if I don't link to your feedback beyond giving you @ credit and, in fact, spamming many of you with @ credits
Also, apologies if I wind up misrepresenting your comments. I'm doing my best and will gladly edit. Consequently, this post will be quite lengthy, hence the spoilers to allow more readability. I should also say the obvious that none
of these ideas are mine. I've done my best to provide a starting point in this collection. The only input I'm offering is what I have personally deemed to be the most developed and well-thought out ideas, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with them. Of course, I need to have seen them too
Ideally, this provokes discussion on refining all the ideas that could result in realistic one-stop shopping for the developers. My intent is that the pvp community will ultimately be the authors of this thread collectively, and I will edit the original posts with suggestions that originate from this thread without all the guff. My thought is that for every idea that three people endorse, we could have a poll that would allow the larger pvp community to have ultimate say so in the inclusion - or omission - of that particular idea. Of course, I'm open to suggestions on how to better proceed, formatting changes, whatever. Also, if there are threads that you'd like revived here, comments you'd like to add, please offer in the below and I will include if another endorses the thread. This is by no means an exhaustive list.
Lastly, I haven't done anything to organize the feedback on gameplay mechanics, though I know we all agree at the least that the faction stacks and negate/destro/earthgore meta is played out and boring. I'm happy to add this category on gameplay mechanics if people provide feedback in this thread and find some consensus.
Without further prologue:
I. Revitalizing and actually using the entirety of the Map
II. Scoring Mechanics
I can't think of a better way to introduce this category than @Etaniel
excellent Tamriel Baguette News Report
that quite beautifully displays all the many spots on the map we never get to use:
a. From @Ishammael a proposal to add more objectives to map and revamp the scoring system:
Bottom Line, Up Front
: I love the Elder Scrolls Online RvR battlefield: Cyrodiil. When functioning correctly, it is the most fun I have had playing a video game, ever. I believe the zone is gorgeous but deserves some TLC. Even today, after two years of fighting I find new and interesting locations. I think the Imperial City zone and concept is amazing. However, neither Cyrodiil nor the IC are utilized as fully as they could be for PvP. The following post is a set of improvements and ideas I have for Cyrodiil, the AvA battlefield, and the Imperial City.
Reduce Lag by spreading players out
Create new, varied, dynamic, and interesting fights
Minimize downtime between PvP engagements
Enable and incentivize contribution to the Cyrodiil Alliance War for all group sizes (1…24)
Meaningful rewards and reasons to fight
Introduce new objective locations throughout the Cyrodiil battlefield
Couple the Imperial City and Imperial Sewers with Cyrodiil
Revamp campaign scoring and rewards system
Shown below is the Cyrodiil map with new items listed. Most of my suggested improvements utilize assets and locations which already exist in the game. Some require new development.
Cyrodiil Interaction with IC:
First, implement all of @KenaPKK
's suggestions for the IC and sewers listed in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/265284/kenas-take-on-imperial-city-pvp-objectives-a-guide-for-zos-with-pitchurs-3/p1 (editor's note: Kena's suggestions included in this post in the IC section)
The Imperial Sewers should be re-designed to allow a player to enter from Cyrodiil on one end and exit to Cyrodiil on the other.
IC Sewer Bases should be adjacent to entrances, not the entrance itself. Alliance Home bases should have a portal to their IC Sewer Base
Something amazing/terrible needs to happen if you bring an Elder Scroll to Molag Kena in the center of the sewers
Towns (White Circles):
Each of the five towns – Bruma, Cheydinhal, Cropsford, Vlastarus, and Chorrol – gets two flags
Flags are defended by guards just like a resource at a keep. Flags can be captured just like a resource.
When an alliance owns a town they contribute points to the Alliance War score
If ownership of a town remains under a particular alliance for a certain amount of time it reverts to “neutral” standing and will require re-capture
Farms / Estates (Orange Circles):
There are a diverse range of farms and estates scattered throughout Cyrodiil.
On a random and rotating basis, each farm or estate produces a “crop” of a particular material type (Mountain Flower, Lady’s Smock, Wood, Iron, etc.)
If an alliance controls the corresponding town, they may harvest the crop
New “Scroll” (Black Star):
Each alliance now owns a new “scroll” (pick a new name) which is located at the center of their home-base inner triangle. This scroll will be guarded similar to an Elder Scroll temple.
The new “scroll” may be picked up by an enemy alliance and taken to their home “scroll”. If they own their own “scroll”, they capture the enemy scroll and are rewarded with a substantial AP and Alliance War score bonus.
Once captured, the new “scroll” automatically resets.
An alliance may not capture an enemy scroll if they do not own their own “scroll”.
Once picked up, the new “scrolls” reset on a one-hour timer just like the Elder Scrolls
New Towers (Green Stars):
New towers will be added around the map. The towers will be modeled after the Empire Tower location south of Aleswell.
Each tower has a single flag with guards on top and an open door on the bottom.
The towers will be connected by a rapid transit system independent of keeps. If you own adjacent towers you may travel between them. See dashed green lines on the map.
When an alliance owns a tower they contribute points to the Alliance War score
Bridges (Blue Rectangles) and Doors (Yellow Squares)
The bridges which connect the mainland of Cyrodiil to the Imperial City will be rebuilt
Players will be able to access the IC districts by traveling across the bridges an entering outside doors. Players should be able to leave the IC districts to the IC island via the same doors.
Towers will be constructed on the IC island to capture and defend
Scoring and Rewards:
Keeps: 5 pts, Towers: 3 pts, Towns: 2 pt, Resources: 1 pt
End of campaign rewards are Alliance War Tokens (AWTs). With AWTs you can buy: Purple and Gold Mats, “Trait-Change” item , Gold jewelry, Coldharbor siege, Monster Sets, ???
Rewards for the Worth loot table includes crafting materials and siege in addition to current season of PvP gear
All prior PvP season gear available for purchase via AP vendors
Character history and rank now includes number of home campaigns finished first, second, and third
Scattered thoughts from the community:
b. A new transitus network @NightbladeMechanics has suggested
"a new transitus network that can port a trickle of players -- say 4 per minute -- across long distances based on ownership of objectives around the edges of the map." Additionally, "more objective flags planted in towns and ruins around the map." He also added the idea of "spontaneous events spawning on the map for us to run to and fight over. These could include giant daedric bosses protecting a special 7th scroll, mobile Imperial caravans to take out, or any other large objectives for the factions to brawl over." "Imagine a Cyrodiil with lots of significant little objectives scattered all around the map. People would split up and fight all over the place to control them, with small groups actually having new content to spark their reinterest, and objectives to encounter one another over outside of zerg lanes and resources. How exciting! "
c. High yield resource areas @Satiar
: "Remember farming coldharbour for flowers? That shoulda been in Cyrodiil! There should have been great farming areas, places combatants and non-combatants went to farm, attack and protect. All the crazy fights I've been in and led these 3 years, one of the most memorable was defending a duelling event from griefers and getting paid for it. *** awesome! We needed more stuff like that. Cyrodiil devolved into some kind of gentleman's war where nothing was worth fighting over so the only benefit was the fight itself. The pride. But that fades as guilds fade and old players leave. Objectives is the wrong way of looking at it. It need(ed?) to be something of value. There needed to be things of value in the corners and valleys that weren't easily available elsewhere. anything else avd we eventually get where we are now."
d. More POI @Joy_Division
: "- Supply wagons traveling in-between each enemy keep. Let me loot columbine, mats, fun stuff.
- The Alyied Wells are a nice idea, however 10 minutes is not worth the bother for such a small bonus to a stat I don’t really care about.
- Strategic resources in random places on the map. If I liberate them, I get some raw mats. These count on scoreboard and have minor Alliance wide combat effects.
- Put control flags throughout Cyrodiil. These also have minor Alliance wide combat effects (maybe in proportion to how much home territory flags an Alliance controls). I get a small utility buff for flipping it.
- NPCs encampments / supply dumps. Put a boss NPC here (that’s actually mildly threatening). Make this give the God of War AP buff bonus (the same one for defeating delve NPC bosses).
In random spawning spots over Cyrodiil are ancient relics of the Dwemer/Alyieds/Akaviri that function as either consumables and deployables and, get this, collectibles, skins, stuff to hang in my house that I can sell to PVE players. One of these is a “dwemer ground oil”. I absolutely will go out of my way to get these.
- Have things (resources, NPCs, daedric stuff, the usual fantasy plot items, etc) away from the Emperor ring that are harvestable at marked and known locations that players can go get and bring back to the Alliance base. I get a small pocket share of this stuff and AP for doing this. Have flags at these. The more an Alliance controls, the sturdier their castle walls are, the stronger their NPC are, and more effective their siege is.
- Most of you probably disagree with me, but the population cap is too small. Yes, I said it. Large map + small population = we need to concentrate in order to have meaningful fights. Also my guild feels compelled to respond to Arrius under attack because there isn’t anything else being attacked and there isn’t a strong friendly presence aside from us. Shrinking the population caps has been paradoxically counter-productive. Go ahead and disagree. You tell me to spread out and all I find is empty map space. So, nope, going to head to the only swords on the map.
e. Flags in the wilderness
Also from @Joy_Division
: "There are capture nodes all over Cyrodiil that flip about as quickly as the “domination” flags in Battlegrounds
. These control a small region around them which is turned red, yellow, or blue on players Alliance war maps depending on which alliance controls them. Each are worth ½ Alliance point and serve to make it such that an alliance that “faction stacks” is guaranteed to lose a campaign." Similarly, @Drummerx04
: "The most basic suggestion for expanding cyrodiil is to add capture points in the wilderness that are actually worth points. Give small scale players something to go out and do."
f. Towns give gold that add to campaign rewards @RandomName123
: "- Make the existing capturable towns generate gold over the length of the campaign
. Each time interval it is held produces a specific amount of gold. Call it a "tax" for the towns citizens, and the gold gets put into an "Alliance Bank" that gets divvied out at the end of the campaign in addition to the regular rewards. This gives more incentive to capture and hold them ... Also, "- Create a new scouting quest that requires going to X town, or Y small-capturable POI that your alliance currently owns and staying there for ~10 mins. With the goal that you play a scout, either engage hostiles that show up or point out enemy movement to the zone chat. Maybe after a lot of these completed quests you get the title of "Scout of Aldmeri" to brag about."
g. Reposition current keeps @Vilestride
: "would it be too drastic to reconsider the positioning the current keeps so that the lanes of transit were not so direct? So for example if BRK was positioned more to the east so the transit lines were more equal. So now it would be as quick a ride from BRK to drake or BRK to Farragut as it is from BRK to arrius. This would break own the conventionally popular travel routes and encourage fights on the roads between all 3 keeps rather than just 1."
III. Rewards for the Worthy, Campaign Rewards, and AP
a. Revisit the scoring system to encourage spreading out @Ghost-Shot suggests
: "The everything is worth 1 point score system needs to go, there is no reason to spread out to different places on the map when none of those locations are actually valuable targets. I have come up with some numbers that I think would be good for score values, would love to hear what everyone thinks about them:
Tri-keeps (Rayles/Wraden/Glademist ) = 5 points each
Tri-keep resources = 2 points each
Dragon/Drake/Brindle and their resources = 3 points each
Emp ring keeps & resources = 2 points for home keeps, 1 point for enemy keeps
Outposts = 2 points each
Towns = 5 points each
Scrolls = 10 points each
Provided proper rewards are implemented for winning a campaign, having higher value targets deep in enemy territory would help spreading people out on the map, you are still going to have the frontline zerg on the ring (it’s never going away, just accept that) but you will also have the more organized forces all over the place." @Vilestride
makes a similar point: "I am not saying go back to what it was, but making everything worth the same eliminates the versatility in what you are contributing with your group. Small scale players will default to taking smaller objectives. They will in turn be met with other small scale players. If they are met by large groups at the least its going to have a detrimental effect to the factions score for a 24 man group to waste their time at these kinds of objectives."
b. Make Scrolls Great Again @NBrookus
makes a pinpoint suggestion: "Scrolls should have a bigger impact on score, but not give the faction that has them combat buffs."
IV. Emperor Mechanics
a. Make AP more related to AVA objectives@sirinsidiator
has in mind reorienting AP gain so that it encourages active participation in the alliance war
instead of individual play. "Each player should get an amount of AP at the end of a scoring period based on their alliances performance and their individual performance," he suggests. "The AP reward is a base amount of AP plus bonus AP multiplied by the percentage of campaign score) scaled by the time spent playing during that scoring period and a population modifier. The base AP give players something to buy siege equipment with, even when their alliance is loosing. Bonus AP are awarded for doing certain things that help the war effort and are described below. They are scaled by the amount of campaign score that is obtained compared to the theoretical maximum by having control over all objectives. Low population bonus and underdog bonus also count towards it and can give a boost to alliances that are falling behind, making it much more interesting for players to play on underpopulated campaigns. The scaling by amount of time is to also reward players that leave before the scoring time and to prevent players from gaining AP when they are idle. Last but not least the population modifier is to give some control over how many AP are awarded on low population campaigns and to prevent players from gaining too many AP just by staying online during the night. The bonus AP consist of a base bonus plus the sum of all AP in the bonus categories - where each category is capped at a certain amount to prevent farming - multiplied by a modifier that depends on how many medals a player has. Medals are awarded for having the most AP in a certain category (editor's note: he suggests categories such as killing blows, overall damage, overall healing, players resurrected, AvA quests completed, distance covered during a scroll run, etc.)
The AP limit for the bonus AP does not apply for this check."
Furthermore, he proposes overhauling the AvA quests:
are either attack a keep or defend a keep depending on the situation. If multiple keeps are under attack, they should be handed out based on certain criteria:
- your current group (location of most players and which quest other members already have)
- biggest impact on the campaign scoring, alliance buffs and fast travel network
When no keeps are under attack, they instead turn into attack quests that focus the effort of the pact on one location. The quest fails if the keep is lost, or the attack fails after having it under siege and all battles are over (same timing as the defticks have right now).
should be turned into real scouting. They allow players to report enemy movements and show them on the map for the whole alliance to see.
The player gets offered to use the scout report action like in the current quest as soon as he tab targets an enemy player or siege, which makes him go out of stealth and write the report. It should also be possible to write reports near an enemy keep or inside an owned keep, which will show the state of all walls in that location to the alliance. Other players can kill the scout in that time, otherwise the whole alliance sees a map marker that indicates how many players/sieges have been spotted in that location.
in their current form are useless and should be changed in order to be more useful and dynamic. Instead of requiring killing players anywhere they should be specific to a certain location and time. For example when a keep is under attack, the kill quest requires players to kill enemies that are in a certain distance to the keep (not too close and not too far).
should be also changed to make players systematically attack important resources near the battlefield. For example when a keep is cut off, the quests directs players to recapture that resource, or when an enemy keep is to be attacked by the alliance, the resource quests lead players to the resources of said keep.
should also be updated so that the warlords don't hand out scroll quests randomly and the scroll quest should also be offered as a world event (like with the quests at trials) to make it easier for players running with the scroll to get them.
- When a scroll is picked up by a different alliance, they should offer a quest to intercept it.
- When a gate is opened by the own alliance, the appropriate scroll quest for that gate should be handed out.
- When a scroll is stolen, the quest to get it back should be permanently be available until it is secured again.
- It should also be allowed to have more than one scroll quest at a time and the scroll quest should fail when the objective is not met.
b. Bring back something similar to Pelinal's Boxes @Agrippa_Invisus suggested restoring the Pelinal's Boxes
and junking the armor. He commented "it should not be a chore to deal with your rewards; it should be rewarding and fun." The community resoundingly endorsed this idea. @Solariken
commented that it need not be as good as the boxes were during the event, but "a little gold, a chance at siege equipment and repairs, a few herbs, upgrade materials, etc. Please no more garbage gear that I have to waste time deconstructing." @LonePirate
suggested that the books be replaced with furniture plans or furnishings. @NightbladeMechanics
commented "remove tel var and Hakeijos, reduce drop chances on motifs slightly to preserve the markets long term, add in some more housing items, increase alchemy mat drops, and add in all the unrepresented types of siege." @NBrookus
suggested that "the motifs could be dropped altogether." @rmerlb16_ESO
added "no Telvar. These should be an incentive for people to play IC." A few added that a little less cold fire and camps would also help
c. Reintroduce Master and/or vMA to campaign victory rewards Elsewhere
and quite a number of others have suggested "reintroducing Master or vMA weapons to end of campaign victory rewards, or creating a new type of 1pc weapon that amplifies Alliance War abilities." @Ghost-Shot echoes this suggestion:
"Malestrom/Master weapons, or at least some alternative, need to be available by some means through PvP. In the past, we had a chance to get Master weapons from the end of campaign rewards, that would be a good way to start if you are opposed to directly purchasing them for a huge amount of AP. PvEers complain all the time about having to PvP for things like vigor and caltrops so they were made easier for them to obtain, why don’t we get the same treatment?"
d. Moar tiers @Ghost-Shot
in the same thread: "add two more tiers to end of campaign rewards, tier 4 at 500k AP, tier 5 at 1 million AP. Tier 4 would put your rewards up to 75k gold, 5 pieces of epic gear, and a full stack of repair kits. Tier 5 gets you 150k gold, 5 gold items, a stack of wall repairs and a stack of door repairs, if your alliance wins the campaign. I’m not entirely sure about this one, but maybe when an alliance wins a campaign, the following cycle the get a 10% AP earned bonus. I realize this seems like huge rewards but if you want people to care, the incentive has to be there."
f. Make AP Great Again ... or actually just worth something @RandomName123
: "- Make AP worth something.
Like AP to buy some mats, either raw material or upgrade material, but at fairly high costs."
g. Untether rewards to home campaign @NightbladeMechanics
suggests a larger undertaking in revamping rewards, no longer tethering them to a particular campaign: "I want ZOS to massively rework end of campaign reward mails and end of campaign victory mails, making them actually strongly desired, and then awarding us with a mail from every campaign in which we earned some baseline percentage of our total AP earned during its duration. Let's say for example there are 4 campaigns. If ZOS rewards mails for any campaign in which you earned at least 15% of your total AP earned during that campaign's duration, then you'd have 60% of your total AP earned evenly among the campaigns, and then the remaining 40% left to earn in whichever campaign you decide to home. This would of course mean doing away with guest campaigns entirely and allowing us to queue ourselves into whichever campaign we want without limits. The idea is to give us full mobility between campaigns and then rewarding us for playing spread out among them."
V. Imperial City and Sewers
a. Holding emp = two keeps
I can't track down the specific thread(s), but it's certainly been proposed that emp should require control of at least two keeps to reduce the horrific tri-faction stacking lag. @Satiar
has commented on this: "Best way to change it: make it so that you have to hold TWO keeps to hold emp."
b. Tie emp buffs to number of keeps held @Joy_Division
: "The Empress’s buffs are tied to how many home keeps she controls
. Having all six makes her stronger than currently, having less makes her progressively weaker. If the Empress loses a home scroll she is disgraced and is removed from her throne. (now there are two dethrone mechanics to help alleviate the last empress keep lag. She is stronger initially because it’s a lot harder to defend)."
c. Emp must claim another keep within an hour when down to last keep @JDar
:To address "nightmare scenario of turtling in keeps at the expense of all other objectives and the game's very playability": Put a timer on when the emperor is down to his or her last keep
. If at that point, the emperor's faction does not capture two more emperor keeps within an hour, then the emperor is dethroned regardless."
d. Emp gauge @Telel
: "This one has also long said that reworking the emperor mechanic to include more map control would also be nice. Not just holding keeps but actually controlling other points on the maps like the small towns, certain delves, choke points, etc. Then have it operate more like flag flipping but on a huge scale. E.G the more map spots you control the faster the emp gauge fills up. Once it's full someone gets Emperor until it drops below a certain amount."
e. Lock emping to 8 hour division to prevent nightcapping @Crispen_Longbow
suggests the following: "Create campaigns that are locked to 8 hour scouring periods. Also tie it to Emp crowning. You can only crown an Emp while scoring is open.
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
5:00PM - 1:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
1:00AM - 9:00AM EST (Scoring & Emp Crowning Closed)
9:00AM - 5:00PM EST (Scoring Open / Emp Crowning Active)
f. Balance pop the reducing caps outside of NA prime time @IxSTALKERxI
commented on the above:"The problem with that is only a 3rd of the prime time population can participate in the alliance war (presuming 3 times more players play during prime time than the other times) due to not everyone being able to fit into trueflame.
With the scoring restriction based on time - I was thinking of something similar but using it to balance server population rather than just scoring.
I don't have any actual data, but here are some made up population/server numbers to show an example:
A server can hold 150 AD, 150 EP and 150 DC.
During 5:00PM - 1:00AM EST - 450 players play on each faction a cross all servers (total of 1350)
During 1:00AM - 9:00AM EST - 150 players play on each faction a cross all servers (total of 450)
During 9:00AM - 5:00PM EST - 150 players play on each faction a cross all servers (total of 450)
This means you could have:
Trueflame - open 24/7 with 150 players on all 3 factions 24/7.
Haderus - open 5:00PM - 1:00AM EST with 150 players on all 3 factions
Azura - open 5:00PM - 1:00AM EST with 150 players on all 3 factions"
Kena's plan to make IC great again Quoting directly from Kena
VI. Increasing interest in PVP for PVErs
Methods to Achieve Goals:
- foster fast paced, small scale PvP
- create varied and interesting fights
- minimize downtime between PvP engagements
- contribute to the Cyrodiil Alliance War without overshadowing Cyrodiil objectives or demanding attention from Cyrodiil groups aiming to win the campaign
- discourage accumulation of large groups
- discourage night capping
place many objectives relatively close to each other
place objectives outside of the usual lanes of travel
- high number of objectives makes it difficult for a night cap crew to hold many objectives against a small resistance moving elsewhere in the DLC unless the night cap crew splits up, at which point they become vulnerable to getting rekt
- close proximity of objectives gives players a choice of multiple logical next targets to move on to following battles or objective captures, minimizing PvE time running between objectives and fights
- locate fights in interesting locales that players may not visit often
- make groups go slightly out of their way to reach nearby objectives
- implement a significantly shorter campaign point score evaluation period than is present in Cyrodiil open world; decrease points awarded per objective per evaluation period to compensate
This incentivizes hitting the objective, capturing it, and moving on to assault other objectives instead of passively defending for points
20 minutes? 10 minutes? Not sure where this should fall to encourage fighting over objectives without overworking the servers:
scaling tel var farm bonus for every objective that your faction owns in IC + valuable items at the tel var vendor
- avoids encouraging groups to stick to resources
- prevents capturing IC objectives from becoming as pointless as capturing resources
- must be careful not to make IC objectives more valuable than Cyrodiil objectives; keep them less valuable so that large Cyrodiil groups don't have much of a reason to come to IC
PvP objective flags -- not boss objectives -- CAN NOT GIVE AP TICKS
- clearing mobs becomes valuable as opposed to running through them with Rapids on
- monetary incentive for players who don't care about winning the campaign scales with number of objectives owned, giving them a reason to fight over them
- Hakeijo, gold upgrade mats, and PvP consumables for sale at tel var vendor at prices comparable but slightly higher than general guild store market price
2+ objectives per district
- This won't be a popular point because nuuuu y u take mah ticks, but if these objectives give ticks, every AP farming zerg in Cyrodiil will spend some time trying to farm these. That is the last thing we need in IC.
- Leave the ticks to boss fights that have respawn timers. This will create inconsistency that will deter the AP farm zergs.
districts may have different numbers of objectives from each other
- zergs will accumulate on flag if there is only one objective per district
- more objectives = more incentive to spread out
players may climb sewer base ladders into districts only if they own at least half of that district's objectives
- creates variety between the districts for unique and interesting engagements tailored to their terrain
players may respawn in the district in which they die if they own at least half of that district's objectives
- in order to reach an unowned district, requires players to venture into the sewers at least as far as the district ladders near their sewer base
- in order to reach an unowned district opposite their side of the ring, requires players to either venture farther through the sewers or to climb one of the nearer district ladders and then run district to district around the ring
- consistent with the lore of infiltrating the Imperial City via the sewers -- if you don't have a foothold in the district, you have to work your way there
players have a respawn timer like with forward camps
- players can fight over respawn rights without having to own every objective in the district, allowing fights to go back and forth
- encourages running from objective to objective to attack and defend instead of sitting on one to defend
- if the district has an odd number of objectives, then you round up
scale the roaming district bosses to fight groups of 12-16 or more, and award the members of the killing faction within that district an offensive tick that scales off of enemy deaths to the boss and to allies in that district during the fight
- can't have zombie hordes poring off the flags
- gives players an AP reward for engaging in drawn out PvP combat with these big bosses spewing AoE mechanics all over the place
- will make for some crazy fights, hilarious wipes, and juicy ticks
each objective in the dead end areas just outside of center gives a buff where you earn 1 AP for every 5 tel var that you collect for each of these objectives that your faction owns
- no respawning at sewer objectives
- all other characteristics are the same as District objectives
tick for enemy deaths in the fight
- venturing into a dead end imposes risk on the group attacking the objective
- also leaves defenders with little chance of escape should they lose
- PvPers will scramble to control these. Some will look to grind. Others will look to kill players and earn AP for the tel var they take. Regardless, they will definitely look to attack and defend these objectives.
- Notice that there are 4 on my map below. Yes, one objective will always have 2 of them. Envy breeds conflict and discourages the factions from just leaving each other with 1 special objective each.
- the fact that 2 of these objectives are on the EP wing of the sewers is irrelevant because proximity to the sewer bases has little bearing on combat advantage, if any
- the objective marked as "PvE objective" is the zombie group fight
- scale world bosses to fight groups of 3-6, and award members of the killing faction who were in immediate combat with the boss a Minor Expedition buff for 5 minutes as well as an offensive
scale the travelling flag bosses to fight groups of 10-12, and award members of the killing faction who were in immediate combat with the boss an offensive tick for enemy deaths in the fight as well as a 15 minute Minor Expedition buff
- the bosses should be somewhat dangerous in case enemy players come into the room during the fight, or choose to attack the group attempting the boss
- the Minor Expedition buff will be quick to pick up for speedy travel around the sewers when combined with Rapids
Molag Bal -- the big man himself -- NO TICK -- instead, Mr. Bal calls off his daedric army such that no mobs or bosses within IC aggro against members of the killing faction for 15 minutes unless attacked first
- Please buff these bosses....I can solo them all, and I know several other people who can as well. These need to be real threats that you either spend time killing or sneak past.
- Minor Expedition provided for movement around the sewers
- moving source of a tick = moving combat objective to look for fights over
Ok I lied -- I only have one pitchur
- yellow aura around mobs, like on those neutral zombies in Wayrest or ICP
- players would be able to flow through IC without worrying about mobs aggroing on them, a huge quality of life buff to movement
- easier movement --> easier capture of objective flags
- escaping from players would also be made interesting, as you could run past mobs while the mobs aggro on them
- with the buff having a duration longer than Molag Bal's respawn rate, multiple factions can have the buff simultaneously
- if Molag Bal gives an AP tick, groups will just gravitate toward center and end up zerging down there unintentionally because center is where the greatest possible AP gains would be
- also shouldn't be an overall AP buff because large AP farming zerg groups will just camp center, killing Molag Bal and farming any enemy players who try to pass through or fight back
Blue star: PvP objective flag (except for Molag Bal. He gets to be a blue star too, woops!)
Blue star with circle: PvP objective flag that's more valuable than the other objectives
Red dot: world boss
Black arrow: district ladder
Other random ideas I've had since posting this:
What if players could purchase tools or traps unique to the Imperial city for use only in IC? I'm thinking things like traps or spell scrolls that summon daedric slaves or lay down a patch of fire on the ground or create a big obstacle that everyone then has to play around. It's a rough idea. I'll have to sleep on it.
VII. Uncategorized suggestions
a. Give node benefits outside of cyrodiil @NightbladeMechanics solicited feedback
from pve'ers directly: "I asked some PvEers what ZOS could do to increase their interest in PvP, and one said "what if owning a region in Cyrodiil gave benefits to your faction outside of Cyrodiil, like if you own certain keeps as EP, you get double node drops in Shadowfen?"
b. Reduce the gear barriers to competing in Cyrodiil @Lexxypwns
: "What about the fact that you need different gear for pvp? I know we can't homogenize all encounters so 1 set of gear fits every situation, but new players come to pvp and die near instantly because they're not running impen, enough sustain, whatever. Perhaps a vendor that allows you to "borrow" blue gear while in cyrodiil. You hop in cyro and go to vendor X and get your impen gear in a small selection of sets for stam/mag/tanks. This gear can't be re-enchanted, traded, upgraded, modified in any way, or used outside cyrodiil." Adding in this thread: "I stand by the accessibility of PVP needing to be changed so that you don't have to farm X hours or spend weeks/months on crafting research just to try out a game mode properly."
c. Make crit resistance a component of Battle Spirit @NightbladeMechanics
: Relatedly, understanding that the lack of impen gear is what often makes the PVE-PVP transition difficult, Kena proposes
"nerfing impen, Transmutation, and Impregnable and then adding a base crit resistance to Battle Spirit ... you could even go the route of nerfing impen and the base crit damage modifier and leaving Trans, Impreg, and CPs alone. I think you see the point, though. Pull crit resistance out of stuff, put into Battle Spirit, PvEers profit."
d. Give the town merchants PVE gear @kylewwefan
: "If the golden or the towns elite gear merchant constantly had legendary SPC, Worm, Ebon, Willpower etc....I know quite a few that would be in Cyrodil way more often." Editor's note: I know these are still popular PVP sets, but I've included for sake of perhaps adding pve sets to the town elite gear merchants. Apologies if I'm reappropriating your idea.
e. resource gathering quests @CavalryPK
: "mini quest the sends you to a random location on the map to gather resources for you alliance - this will make the farmers, traders and crafters come the pvp in order to get resources (crafting mats for armor or furniture). "
f. No more baggin'[ @anitajoneb17_ESO
: "I know the rage tells, the teabagging, the taunting and all the crap that's going on in PvP is part of a culture, a code, and doesn't mean things as literally as they seem to be to outsiders. Yet I still believe it's make-up for real toxicity and agressivity. Also, you have to realize and become conscious of how horrible and sick it all looks from the outside. So my point is : if you (by "you" I mean, the PvP community) want to keep those habits and behaviours, keep that "code" among yourselves, then fine, do it. But if the issue is to *attract* people from the outside (PvE'rs), as is suggested by this thread, in order to refill the population in Cyrodiil, that's something that you really, really need to reconsider. It's off-putting to an extent that you've simply forgotten over time. Normal people don't enjoy agressivity, even in a competitive environment. Simple as that."
g. Scroll and enemy keeps confer bonuses outside of Cyrodiil @asneakybanana
: "reintroducing the benefit of scroll bonuses and enemy keep bonuses applying outside of cyro. This will encourage players from outside cyro to venture into PvP and participate in fighting for their faction. Also, I think it would be cool if there were special events in PvP once every week or every other week and the winning faction would get some bonus outside of campaign scoring and ap. Imagine it like the node wars and fights for castles in BDO where you get a % of the gold earned in the area that your guild holds. Could do something along the lines of that where if your faction wins you get a week long 5% gold/ap/exp buff. Sure this may end up getting zergy but it could be very interesting seeing strategy alliances play out, especially if there are 3 nodes to fight over between the 3 factions. Also, another thing that could make things interesting is creating a sort of PvP raid boss/ world boss system. Similar to molag bol in the sewers but much harder hitting, much better rewards, and much harder to kill. Give the boss like 200m health and have him do large high damage aoe attacks and make it so that the reward is something similar to maelstrom or master weapons where it's a super low chance to receive something good but farming for that piece of gear will help you a lot in the end. Make a server wide notification that he is spawning and have him spawn every 2-5 days to make it not an every day occurrence. (Yes I got this idea from world bosses in BDO). I think this would help with more consistent population because people won't want to potentially miss out on their chance at gear they need so they will be more likely to be already sitting in cyro."
h. Stop farming pugs @zyk
: "What I see from some highly coordinated small groups I encounter is hours spent every day fighting unorganized mobs of mostly casual players. I fight along these players and they tend to melt. They don't know the tactics -- which is why the fall for the same old tricks. I've used this analogy before. If a good CS clan were to fight with each other on a public server against randoms, they'd *easily* win every time and be considered jerks for it. Very quickly, they would find their opponents leave and their server empty. It is inherently toxic for organized gamers to look for "juicy" opponents they outclass. It impedes growth. The same goes for all games. Without a reasonable opportunity for even competition, the game dies. This is why all other competitive mediums are segmented based on aptitude. No one would get into competitive sports if this segmentation did not exist." @CyrusArya
responded: "You make it out as if small scale groups go out of their way and forcibly coerce players to chase them. This is not the case. People chase small scalers down and go out of their way to engage when they perceive a numerical advantage. Because they think they will win. And you know what? Some of those times they are right. Some of those time they are wrong. It's a two way relationship, so spare me the lecture. Furthermore, it is not nearly as easy as you make it out to be. Players don't have to be fodder to be a threat in large enough numbers, and groups in general (pug or otherwise) are not nearly as incompetent as you like to believe."
i. Stop charging for CP respecs and skill remorphs @waitwhat
: "Also make CP respecs and re-morphing zero-cost. 3k gold multiple times per-day (more if re-morphing) really cramps switching between the two, more so for those newer to the game without large cash-reserves/steady income. It is extremely inconvenient to do both PvE and PvP on the same character, and that probably deters the new blood just at the point where they would be getting in to Cyrodiil." Editor's note: adding that single skill remorphs through the skill window would be peachy too
j. High yield resource nodes in Cyrodiil @Satiar
: "Imagine: in the middle of the 3 trikeeps there's a resource rich area. Tons of flowers, or tons of mining. Imagine crafting/trade guilds setting up shop there, enemy guilds making raids on the area. You could get an entire pve/pvp ecosystem there, guilds raiding or providing protection, trade guilds forming alliances with pvp guide for protection or to obtain resources.... just one half-baked idea but still! It can't just be AP, it was never enough. Not to create an interconnected pvp community."
k. Give worthwhile loot to Cyrodiil PVE @RandomName123
: "- Make some random mobs in the PvP overworld much stronger and drop worth-while loot,
like nice gear sets, random mats, cosmetic skins, or gold tempers/tannins. These are mobs already in the world, like the trolls by one of the keeps, that one-off gargoyle that is in the middle of nowhere, that really small random fenced-in graveyard full of ghosts, that one mountain lion that you can't damage or that dragon thing guarding the raised bridge to IC. These exact mobs are already placed in Cyrodiil. Make these hard fights, and require 5-10 people over like five minutes. Somewhat like the group bosses in PvE, but more of a raid. This might produce PvPvE raid parties in less used parts of the cyrodiil overland map."
l. Moar motifs @Apherius
: "introduce more Motif that we can buy with AP."
a. Get rid of the campaigns introduced during Midyear Mayhem @Anazasi
has suggested addressing the increasingly vacating primary campaign: "I think an immediate fix would be eliminating the campaigns that were created for the pvp event." Similarly, @SanTii.92
"Removing the two extra campaigns would be a nice place to start." @NightbladeMechanics
agrees: "they need to close some campaigns for sure, but I would also like to see incentives to play in all of the campaigns, not just your home campaign. Do away with guest campaigns already, and let us play in all of them."
b. Reduce group size @Derra
: "Reduce groupsize. Large groups put up a huge barrier people have to overcome to participate. The smaller the amount of people needed - the easier it is to get people to try to participate. It´s easier to grab 5 friends out of a guild and form a semi functional group than it is to grab 15. It also places more focus on guilds (multiple groups organised within the guild) and less one large group. It´s a disincentive to run purgebots/rapidbots in group that put you at a huge advantage over "normal" players/builds." Commenting on the above, however, @Kilandros
"Artificially trying to promote smaller group play by capping group size won't change anything. The only way to get small scale action to make a return is by reining back the balance changes that have made numbers the dominant meta. Parties of 5 can still stack together to steamroll a single Party of 5" @Derra
responded: "The core argument is: Finding 5 people to play with is easier than finding 15. Pvp needs to be accessible. Largescale pvp is the main goal for cyrodiil - yet it´s the most inaccessible form of pvp there is. It´s not about changing how people play. It´s about getting them to play in the first place and having it as accessible as possible." @NightbladeMechanics
commented: "This is.....a very interesting and compelling argument. I too love unorganized large scale PvP -- "unorganized" meaning no ball groups present, just a big siege with mostly small groups and pugs and maybe a few large groups who don't ball up on each other and roll over everyone else, with several skirmishes happening at the same time all over and around the keep." @Vilestride
responde: "Drop group to 5 and say goodbye to the casual PvPer who just wants to zerg surf a while ... As for 'Zergballs', I am going to assume you mean organised raids. IMO it will make them stronger than ever before ... Believe me, I and my guild mates don't need a crown to follow our leader ... The only threat to an organised guild is other organised guilds. If you make it inherently harder to organise groups, the gap between top tier and mid/lower tier guilds will widen, not close." @NightbladeMechanics
: "I definitely do think that cutting the group cap would result in groupless pugs just hording together even worse than they already do, and leaving organized, skilled players more helpless to deal with them. As much lag as organized large groups create, they do keep the pug tides in check. If ZOS were to reduce the group cap, they'd have to create some very strong positive incentives to spread people out, such as new objectives around the edges of the map that actually contribute to the campaign and reward the players who travel to and fight for them with meaningful and desirable rewards." @Agrippa_Invisus
: "IMO, the group size should never, ever have been allowed to be greater than what the PVE content allows - 12. Universal group sizes also allows for easier transition between the two activities. A 20 man PVP raid can't convert easily into two 12 man raids for PVE content, but a 12 man can just step out without re-organization and switch between the two with ease."
c. Moar events@gibous
: "A more regular calendar of events - why not have a double AP weekend once a month?"
d. Make taking a keep difficult again @Vilestride
: "When the game launched taking keeps meant hour long sieges, epic back and forth battles. Now it means setting up your 20/20 on a door (which is easy to do with as little as 8 people), getting in and flipping flags before anyone gets there. This should not be possible. Lengthen the time taken to siege down walls and doors. Make taking a keep a real challenge that is almost impossible unless your faction actually implements tactics that involve all sized groups, again, bringing back the need for variety of group sizes. Honestly me and my 16 man raid shouldn't be able to take ales from DC unless we have small scale groups cutting its transit, optimally glademist transit to and then stalling incoming DC from any other transit routes as well as harassing counter-siege where they can."
e. Just like ya did for PVErs, stop making PVPers grind content they may not enjoy @zyk
: "A big reason PVP focused players quit ESO and never return is because of the PVE item grind. Players into open world AvA PVP probably don't want to spend dozens or hundreds of hours grinding 4-12 player PVE instances to remain competitive. To better retain players, change the itemization dynamics so PVP players can progress their characters by doing what they enjoy: PVP."
f. Reduce lag and improve performance @literallyeverysinglepersonwhopvps
: reduce lag and improve performance