Kemenril wrote: »

North_esp wrote: »

PLEASE take a closer look at magblade. If magsorcs aren't being nerfed in any way other than the light armor/ cp changes then there is still very little reason to bring a magblade dps into endgame vet trials. Saptank is pretty much dead. This siphoning change needs to be revisited, please.

My response, in a nutshell. ^^^

I feel the siphoning changes really negatively impact NB's ability to tank at all. Furthermore, it's not like it was a change everyone was clamoring for.

I don't feel the reaction you're seeing here to Siphoning changes is overdramatic. There's are lots of good threads and conversations out there about how to redress these changes, including one here. I hope you consider them.

aeowulf wrote: »

Kemenril wrote: »

North_esp wrote: »

PLEASE take a closer look at magblade. If magsorcs aren't being nerfed in any way other than the light armor/ cp changes then there is still very little reason to bring a magblade dps into endgame vet trials. Saptank is pretty much dead. This siphoning change needs to be revisited, please.

My response, in a nutshell. ^^^

I feel the siphoning changes really negatively impact NB's ability to tank at all. Furthermore, it's not like it was a change everyone was clamoring for.

I don't feel the reaction you're seeing here to Siphoning changes is overdramatic. There's are lots of good threads and conversations out there about how to redress these changes, including one here. I hope you consider them.

Completely agree. Crazing thing is the changes are not going to stop a DK from perma blocking making the distance between the meta DK tank and other tanks further . have a read of Woelers take on the changes wrt DK's:

https://woeler.eu/index.php?p=article&id=27

The distance needs to be closed if anything not increased. There is no place for a non-dk tank in end game trial as it is.

unwoman wrote: »

I wish the pvp community would shut up about nerfing classes until they seperate pvp & pve updates. Look where it's gotten us. ZOS obviously takes nerfs way too far everytime.

Xvorg wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Atleast sorcs can still run a damage set. As well as an overpowered damage reduction set that was hardly changed. Also the heals for stamina classes were just increased by 30% along with the cost reduction nerfs making vigor and one dodge roll with a block take up an entire stamina pool. A second dodge roll and we are completely unable to CC break. Let alone this is where our sprint and damage come from as well we will basically be on CC away from death every time.

Also, I don't see the section where sorcs shields got increased? Therefore you still have your main defence at roughly the same cost (minus champion changes) while stamina survivability, which was already lackluster, was made even harder. Espeically for classes like stam dk that relied on things such as major mending, or even night blade that relied on things like dodge roll and sneak.

Same cost? You crazy? Sorcs lost 16% cost reduction on shields from CP and another 5% from Light Armor passives. Shields on PTS cost over 3.5k for Hardened Ward, 4.5k for Harness and 4.5k for Healing Ward. Harness used to refund basically the whole cost of casting Hardened and Harness. With 42k magicka (and the magicka return scales with your max magicka) I have a return of 1.2k per magic damage 3 times. That's 3.6k "effective cost reduction". Your 3 shields will cost a little less than 1/3 of your magicka pool to cast. That's the most expensive defense out of any class considering they have to be actively reapplied every 6 seconds. With 2k recovery, you get 6k magicka back in 6 seconds. The return from Harness gives another 3.6k. We have 9.6k magicka restored over 6 seconds, which is still less than what the shields cost (12k with the cost reduction passives in Light Armor and Sorc passives). And that's in a situation where your shields last their full duration (aka you aren't taking any damage). Sorcs are suffering from these cost reduction changes a lot, arguably more than the other classes.

Umm....Shields don't cost that on PTS either

Hardened Ward with 5/1/1 and ZERO cost reduction on any of my gear is 2879 Cost, Harnessed is 3764 Cost. (Healing Ward is the same)

So either you didn't spec your guy or you're giving the wrong numbers on purpose.

That's the base value of shields with max CP and no cost reduction passives. You have Light Armor cost reduction passives and most likely the Sorc cost reduction passive, which gives you in total 15% cost reduction. That alone brings the base cost close to the values you described. Also you're a Breton.
The base cost of shields are: 3510 Hardened, 4590 Harness, 4590 Healing.
Lets take Hardened: 3510 x 0.85 = 2983.5 that's with just the Sorc passive and the Light Armor passive. Lets check Breton: 3510 x 0.82 = 2878.2

So you're a Breton and you have all the Cost Reduction passives. No wonder you're not getting the same numbers as me. I was talking about the base cost of shields being high.

Stop this bullsh** racial passives don't work on the pts right now. You just want to state that sorcs are crap so that ZoS doesn't nerf them even though they are already the strongest class for both Stam and mag dps and for pvp.
Sorcs deserve to be crap for one patch so that anyone who mains a sorc realises who good they were and stop this stupid defence for sorcs that they are not viable

Aha then how do you explain the 3% difference in cost of shields? Unless shields magically received a 3% cost reduction, there's absolutely nothing that explains this 3% difference aside from race.
I never stated Sorcs were crap, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said they weren't viable. I was saying that they are getting severely hit by the patch too, just like all the other classes, and just because there aren't any changes to Dark Exchange, or the Sorc passives, doesn't mean they aren't going to take as much of a sustain hit as other classes. If you think even a little bit you'll see that magicka Sorcs were sustaining solely through recovery and cost reduction. Stamina Sorcs were sustaining through cost reduction, Constitution (which got a 45% nerf), heavy attacks and Dark Deal, I agree that Dark Deal is OP, and a simple cost increase to 4590 would fix the problem straight away, but I doubt that without cost reduction and consistution you're going to have the same infinite sustain as you can achieve on live. In fact, I'm pretty sure it just won't be possible to rely solely on Dark Deal to sustain, because you just won't be able to Dark Deal as much as now, and all skills are gonna cost at least 16% more. Not to mention the Redguard passive change.
Remember DB? Yeah, Sorcs were beyond crap that patch without any good sets to actually support them. What has changed since then? Destro buffs and new sets. Nothing in the Sorc class has changed since the patch where they were just plain bad in both PvE (Overload no longer viable) and PvP (just bad). The only things that have changed are non-class related things, that helped Sorcs as much as other classes. So who's really to blame here? The class or the sets or the external skill lines? Just like the class itself hasn't changed since DB, but other external things brought it to the high levels where it is now, now nothing changed either and all the external things that are happening are going to drag the sorc down.

3% extra cost is your complaint?

Go an try your NB

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

What they need to do to Shields:

-Remove Bastion CP
-Remove Pirate Skeleton
-Increase cost for consecutive shield casts
-Remove the ability to stack Harness + other shields
-Reduce the magika received from Harness
-Add debuffs that reduce the effectiveness of shields

Honestly, the fact that shields can't be critted causes so much problems though. It just allows Sorcs to go full offense while every other class has to spec for impen. That just makes the damage Sorcs can do that much more ridiculous.

Sorcs wear impen too. At least all the good ones.

If you remove all of the above why don't you remove shields all together? They will be a worthless form of defense. So then Sorcs might actually receive some nice survivability mechanics aside from shields. Then all of you guys are going to keep whining because you'll find another reason to do it. Any good player knows damn well that shields on Sorcs aren't a problem to rip through. Like literally, EVERY good or decent player knows that. Because it is easy and it is logical. So that does tell me something about your level of playing

Any good player knows that if a sorc plays defensively and stack 3 shields better leave him alone.

Yeah, is that Sorc doing any damage? No. When they are under pressure they don't have that many options aside from shield stacking. And if you do more damage in a GCD than a shield can take, you'll kill the Sorc no problems. But yeah, might as well not waste your time

He's proccing frags, so he's a threat. Turn around and you are dead

Firerock2 wrote: »

sly007 wrote: »

So many people are quick to judge with an ounce of testing. Remember when every body cried and moaned about how terrible the destro ultimate would be. Then 1 day into live the same people cried for a nerf. Every pts, the same thing happens.

Let's calm ourselves and actually go test things out. Of course sustain across the board will be bad if we use the exact same setup. Test for an alternative, find the solution, not complain about a problem we have yet to meet.

Every class got nerfed pretty much except for Magicka sorc and magicka nightblade. These are massive changes that are far bigger than just a new ult. I don't need to test it to say that I won't be playing this game unless the PTS changes drastically

Machete wrote: »

The nerf to battle roar and helping hands does really, really suck, but I will live on. Don't let the nerf to igneous shield go live, it's the last thing all DK's really have since we lost reflect to force pulse.

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Atleast sorcs can still run a damage set. As well as an overpowered damage reduction set that was hardly changed. Also the heals for stamina classes were just increased by 30% along with the cost reduction nerfs making vigor and one dodge roll with a block take up an entire stamina pool. A second dodge roll and we are completely unable to CC break. Let alone this is where our sprint and damage come from as well we will basically be on CC away from death every time.

Also, I don't see the section where sorcs shields got increased? Therefore you still have your main defence at roughly the same cost (minus champion changes) while stamina survivability, which was already lackluster, was made even harder. Espeically for classes like stam dk that relied on things such as major mending, or even night blade that relied on things like dodge roll and sneak.

Same cost? You crazy? Sorcs lost 16% cost reduction on shields from CP and another 5% from Light Armor passives. Shields on PTS cost over 3.5k for Hardened Ward, 4.5k for Harness and 4.5k for Healing Ward. Harness used to refund basically the whole cost of casting Hardened and Harness. With 42k magicka (and the magicka return scales with your max magicka) I have a return of 1.2k per magic damage 3 times. That's 3.6k "effective cost reduction". Your 3 shields will cost a little less than 1/3 of your magicka pool to cast. That's the most expensive defense out of any class considering they have to be actively reapplied every 6 seconds. With 2k recovery, you get 6k magicka back in 6 seconds. The return from Harness gives another 3.6k. We have 9.6k magicka restored over 6 seconds, which is still less than what the shields cost (12k with the cost reduction passives in Light Armor and Sorc passives). And that's in a situation where your shields last their full duration (aka you aren't taking any damage). Sorcs are suffering from these cost reduction changes a lot, arguably more than the other classes.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the changes to skill line unlocking. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• In general, what are your thoughts on the class balance in this update?
• How long did it take you to run out of resources? What did you do in this case?
• Did you change your character/build in any way because of these changes? How so?

Gomumon wrote: »

No matter what they say, the biggest problem in this game is that the PVE metagame and PVP metagame do not have separate build archetypes. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: USE SOME OF THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF USELESS SETS, TRAITS, AND BOONS TO MAKE A SEPARATE PVP META. They've been balancing this game since 2014 and are still not happy with the results. It's painfully obvious that the problem isn't with resource management. The problem is that there's no way to buff something for PVE without it becoming abused in PVP, or nerf something in PVP without it becoming useless in PVE.

They could easily make skills behave differently against other players, e.g. (XYZ - Does blah, blah, blah. If used against a player, sets off balance instead of stuns). Or even add more morphs for PVP (then also give us a way to conveniently switch back...perhaps in our homes have a manequin that will save our entire loadout and that we can add Q/D-Pad like other collectibles/consumables).

As for newer players, if you really want to remove or reduce barriers to entry, then fix the damn drop tables. NOBODY is having fun grinding WGT for the 100th time just to get a well-fitted Imperium helm when all they want to do is start healing with their trials guild. I'm sure new players and veterans alike would much more appreaciate being able to make their build easier then actually get to the fun stuff than they would being stronger at CP 300 but taking till 500 anyway to get what they need. It would make more sense to have different set merchants in each zone that take a currency rewarded from PVE content, like there is for AP and Tel Var.

Feeling as this is already nearing TL;DR, I won't list the million other BETTER ideas that would make this game exponentially more fun, rewarding and balanced than lowering max damage and sustain! Not trying to say I have all these good ideas; just that, at this point, you could pick random ideas out of a hat that would achieve that aim better than this. >.>