Proposed alternative to the Siphoning Attacks / Leeching Strikes changes, and why:

NightbladeMechanics

This thread is more geared toward PvP since PvE sustain is more focused on one resource pool than two.

TLDR: Mageblade relies on coupled magicka and stamina sustain from Siphoning Attacks, so the ability should retain resource return of both types, even if it gets nerfed.

Understand that I'm in full support of a nerf to the skill in the context of sweeping sustain nerfs gamewide, and I'm in full support of everyone needing to build more sustain. However, I reiterate that mageblade's viability and play patterns rely on strong magicka AND stamina sustain mechanics NOT received from gear.

No, those % regen passives are not sufficient. Every class gets some mild sustain passives like those, but active sustain sources are always still required. I know someone's going to get triggered by that.. lol

Mageblade relies on magicka sustain from Siphoning attacks because:

• it has low tooltip damage. Mageblades have to build damage to deal damage. You'll never see a snb heavy Seducer mageblade deal the same damage as a DK or magplar in the same build, nor will a mageblade in Seducer + Engine Guardian be as lethal as a sorc wearing those sets. Sorcs are naturally more lethal with lower spell damage because they have multiple undodgeable attacks and can layer multiple attacks into a single global cooldown.
• it has to constantly cast abilities. A mageblade letting up pressure on its enemies will lose control of the fight, fall on the defensive, and die due to weak defensive mechanics compared to other classes. Mageblades have high sustain demands.

Mageblade relies on stamina sustain from Siphoning attacks because:

• everyone needs stamina sustain from somewhere.
• it can't afford to invest in building stamina sustain via sets, mundus, or jewelry glyphs without losing lethality. Sorcs acquire their stam sustain this way, but sorcs need less stam sustain because they can streak away from fights to regen stam or set up defensive positions with mines and atronach. Sorcs can also afford to build stam regen because they are more lethal at lower spell damage values than mageblades, as I mentioned above.
• mageblade has no burst heal besides ults. DKs have Battle Roar and Helping Hands for stam sustain and a big burst heal. Templars have an equally strong burst heal, but only Repentance for stam sustain. Notice how much time they spend in mist form. Mageblades expend a lot of stamina defensively.

My proposal:

Siphoning Strikes (unmorphed):

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1539 health and restore 396 magicka.

These are the PTS values. I'm trying to stick to those.

Siphoning Attacks:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1539 health and restore 396 magicka and stamina.

Adds stamina return, retaining the bi-stat resource sustain of the live version and the nerfed values of the PTS version.

Leeching Strikes:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks restore 1539 health.
• Your light and heavy attacks apply Minor Defile and Minor Vulnerability for 2 seconds. Attacking another target ends these debuffs and applies them to the new target.

Trades the magicka sustain for a new, highly aggressive morph. Nightblade is the debuff class, so giving it access to these two new and seldom accessible debuffs makes thematic sense. Their short durations and single target requires the nightblade to stay on the offense, choose the correct primary target, and gives the target counterplay. With the sustain constrictions of next patch, this morph will also come with a serious tradeoff.

I picked 2 seconds because that's the current duration of Fasalla's, another debuff which requires constant contact to upkeep. I'd be perfectly happy with a duration of 1.5 seconds, but I don't think the duration should go lower since 1 second is the global cooldown and weaving perfectly at the global cooldown is physically impossible due to hardware delays and travel time of attacks.

Honestly, any alternative for Leeching Strikes would be cool by me. Stam return + heal + one debuff would be appealing to a lot of players as well, as would many other ideas. I picked a combination of effects with no resource return in order to make Siphoning Attacks the dedicated sustain morph and Leeching Strikes the dedicated aggressive morph. Having two sustain morphs (the way it has always been on live) clearly isn't working.

Why should we not have dedicated stam and magicka morphs?

• Stam classes have used magicka skills for utility forever. What else are they going to do with their magicka? Examples include fear, cloak, igneous shield, fossilize, restoring focus, extended ritual, crit surge, and streak. Unless all of those abilities get distinguished stamina morphs, why should Siphoning Attacks have distinguished stamina and magicka morphs?
• Mageblade in particular relies on hybrid resource return for PvP. Brawly play styles of stamblade do as well, but I speak for mageblade.

Now it's entirely possible that the PTS changes are completely fine. If mageblade remains lethal after building sufficient stam sustain in its gear, then we don't have a problem. In fact, we have buffs. I write this post as in worry, and to hear others' thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for reading.

arkansas_ESO

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Very good suggestions, IMO 390 is too low though, especially considering how Siphoning Attacks costs resources to cast and requires you to be actively doing something (light attacking) whereas Warden's Netch is free to cast and doesn't require to do anything but to cast it. I'd say anywhere from 500-700 return per light attack would be fair--again, it's an active resource return mechanic and should reward the player for actively working to restore resources.

arkansas_ESO

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Obligatory dev tagging: @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Subversus

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I completely agree with everything in the OP. @Wrobel this is your chance to fix what you messed up.

Zendran

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I agree, this change as it stands is an absolutely massive nerf to magblade and has the potential to gut the class.

bubbygink

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Totally agree that Magblade heavily relies on the stam sustain from SA. In fact, for those of who use witchmothers (which is many of us), it impacts our magicka sustain even further than the nerf to SA's magicka recovery already has. I can utilize witchmothers now because I can use SA to sustain on 10k stam. Now, I'll almost certainly have to change to trifoods. So not only will my SA only restore 25% of the previous value but I'll also lose hundreds of magicka recovery from dropping witchmothers.

Hoping to keep witchmothers for the added sustain, I've been theorycrafting builds to account for no stam sustain and it's been very rough. I've thought about Willows Path, Amberplasm, Bloodthorn's Touch, etc. I've thought about using heavy armor, perhaps black rose. But the issue is that if I am forced to run a couple sustain sets then my damage will be non-existent.

As Kena said in the OP, our base damage is low. We've been able to compete by having significant sustain so that we can fully stack damage to get respectable tooltips while still being able to apply constant pressure by continuously casting abilities. IMO this has always been the theme to our class (see the previously cheap but then also nerfed funnel cost). But now siphoning attacks has been nerfed to a glorified magicka steal debuff (they now restore about the same amount) which all classes can use. We have really lost our one edge. We won't sustain magicka any better than a Mag Sorc using Ele Drain for magicka steal yet that Mag Sorc is built to hit hard even in something like seducer + lich.

I really think there should be some middle ground here - still a nerf to the magicka and stam sustain while adding in the health sustain, but not such a reduction in magicka sustain and removal of stamina sustain. Perhaps something like 700 magicka/stamina/health acrosss the board. Otherwise, ZoS needs to realize that magblades tooltips will need to be buffed because they were set so low with the idea that our sustain would allow us to build for damage.

Manpoints

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I'd love to see some discussion, some interaction with the community before making such devastating changes, who on earth have they discussed this with to get to this point?

Subversus

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I don't even understand what he's doing anymore. It's absurd to keep nerfing the sustain of a class with already low damage, I don't know how the human mind can't realize that I thought it's pretty simple. Guess it's not and we have to point it out EVERY GOD DAMN PATCH...

kadar

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Agreed, I like the dual functionality of Siphoning attacks as is stands now. Gives NB a unique way to return both primary resource and secondary for increased utility and buff management. The currently proposed PTS changes will gut this niche feature handily and completely...

I very much like your ideas for alternatives. A choice between those would actually be quite difficult haha! I'd also accept a buff to the healing component considering that it is affected by battle spirit and rendered quite weak-- the intended purpose of the change was to "increase surviveability" of NBs. Will 700 health on a light attack have any meaningful affect on surviveability?

arkansas_ESO

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Some additional reading on this issue:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4011185#Comment_4011185
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/335829/leeching-strikes
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/336536/nightblade-siphoning-attack-nerf-dks-templars-were-in-the-same-boat
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/336409/leeching-strikes-is-terrible-now
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/335892/siphoning-attacks-strikes-discussion-thread
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/336505/siphoning-attacks-in-pvp
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4009751/#Comment_4009751

Please keep this issue at the forefront of the devs' attention! Siphoning Attacks as it currently stands is far too weak, to the point where it might not even be worth slotting anymore.

WhiteMage

This sounds like a very effective pair of morphs. In fact, this looks like a great idea. I would have a very hard time choosing between these morphs if I were a mNB player.

kadar

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Obligatory dev tagging: @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler

@arkansas_ESO
I promote you to official Assistant-to-the-NB-Dev-Summoner.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Look lets be honest the real reason no one used Leeching Strikes was the weak returns, low heals and that you had to light or heavy to get anything back. As I said weak returns so even when it worked it was lacking all that with a 17% self damage nerf was the death of the skill.

@ZOS_GinaBruno You should take this up with your team cause Nightblades lack any real defenses Cloak is short and countered by nearly everything, everyone else has miss chance + burst heals and build in tankiness. We simple don't have the room to let up on damage everyone else can CC break, defend, heal and come out fighting we can run if we are lucky.

Getting resources for fighting let us stay in the fight. Leeching Strikes needed you to take a damage nerf, resource return nerf and a double bar slot just to work right. This power was never good at all. You guys nerfed all sustain that's fine take it down from it's live value but don't gut it like this.

If we are to loss unmatched sustain we need to gain something. Stealth in PvP is done better with any class, burst is done better with any other class PvP and PvE, we were never in the running for shields and healing. We are a class that has been out done on every level be everyone else. Eight seconds of CC immunity hurt us the worst we couldn't out DPS but we could CC just about anyone and we in the long fight that's totally gone.


Nightblades were made to be the Assassin/Rogue class get in get out right? So how come every other class seems better build for solo fighting / assassinating?

Best Burst • Magic Sorcerers
Best Escape • Magic Sorcerers
Best CC with Burst • Stamina Dragon Knight
Best Heal • Magic Templar
Best Execute • Magic Templar

DuckNoodles

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Dont keep pts changed and revert back original skill.

Magblades are way behide in dps, but they had sustain to compensate witch still lacks.

Now theres not point in running a nightblade.

Zos has made some serious silly changes.

They should of just removed CP sustain and left skills alone.

olsborg

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

This thread is more geared toward PvP since PvE sustain is more focused on one resource pool than two.

TLDR: Mageblade relies on coupled magicka and stamina sustain from Siphoning Attacks, so the ability should retain resource return of both types, even if it gets nerfed.

Understand that I'm in full support of a nerf to the skill in the context of sweeping sustain nerfs gamewide, and I'm in full support of everyone needing to build more sustain. However, I reiterate that mageblade's viability and play patterns rely on strong magicka AND stamina sustain mechanics NOT received from gear.

No, those % regen passives are not sufficient. Every class gets some mild sustain passives like those, but active sustain sources are always still required. I know someone's going to get triggered by that.. lol

Mageblade relies on magicka sustain from Siphoning attacks because:

• it has low tooltip damage. Mageblades have to build damage to deal damage. You'll never see a snb heavy Seducer mageblade deal the same damage as a DK or magplar in the same build, nor will a mageblade in Seducer + Engine Guardian be as lethal as a sorc wearing those sets. Sorcs are naturally more lethal with lower spell damage because they have multiple undodgeable attacks and can layer multiple attacks into a single global cooldown.
• it has to constantly cast abilities. A mageblade letting up pressure on its enemies will lose control of the fight, fall on the defensive, and die due to weak defensive mechanics compared to other classes. Mageblades have high sustain demands.

Mageblade relies on stamina sustain from Siphoning attacks because:

• everyone needs stamina sustain from somewhere.
• it can't afford to invest in building stamina sustain via sets, mundus, or jewelry glyphs without losing lethality. Sorcs acquire their stam sustain this way, but sorcs need less stam sustain because they can streak away from fights to regen stam or set up defensive positions with mines and atronach. Sorcs can also afford to build stam regen because they are more lethal at lower spell damage values than mageblades, as I mentioned above.
• mageblade has no burst heal besides ults. DKs have Battle Roar and Helping Hands for stam sustain and a big burst heal. Templars have an equally strong burst heal, but only Repentance for stam sustain. Notice how much time they spend in mist form. Mageblades expend a lot of stamina defensively.

My proposal:

Siphoning Strikes (unmorphed):

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1539 health and restore 396 magicka.

These are the PTS values. I'm trying to stick to those.

Siphoning Attacks:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1539 health and restore 396 magicka and stamina.

Adds stamina return, retaining the bi-stat resource sustain of the live version and the nerfed values of the PTS version.

Leeching Strikes:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks restore 1539 health.
• Your light and heavy attacks apply Minor Defile and Minor Vulnerability for 2 seconds. Attacking another target ends these debuffs and applies them to the new target.

Trades the magicka sustain for a new, highly aggressive morph. Nightblade is the debuff class, so giving it access to these two new and seldom accessible debuffs makes thematic sense. Their short durations and single target requires the nightblade to stay on the offense, choose the correct primary target, and gives the target counterplay. With the sustain constrictions of next patch, this morph will also come with a serious tradeoff.

I picked 2 seconds because that's the current duration of Fasalla's, another debuff which requires constant contact to upkeep. I'd be perfectly happy with a duration of 1.5 seconds, but I don't think the duration should go lower since 1 second is the global cooldown and weaving perfectly at the global cooldown is physically impossible due to hardware delays and travel time of attacks.

Honestly, any alternative for Leeching Strikes would be cool by me. Stam return + heal + one debuff would be appealing to a lot of players as well, as would many other ideas. I picked a combination of effects with no resource return in order to make Siphoning Attacks the dedicated sustain morph and Leeching Strikes the dedicated aggressive morph. Having two sustain morphs (the way it has always been on live) clearly isn't working.

Why should we not have dedicated stam and magicka morphs?

• Stam classes have used magicka skills for utility forever. What else are they going to do with their magicka? Examples include fear, cloak, igneous shield, fossilize, restoring focus, extended ritual, crit surge, and streak. Unless all of those abilities get distinguished stamina morphs, why should Siphoning Attacks have distinguished stamina and magicka morphs?
• Mageblade in particular relies on hybrid resource return for PvP. Brawly play styles of stamblade do as well, but I speak for mageblade.

Now it's entirely possible that the PTS changes are completely fine. If mageblade remains lethal after building sufficient stam sustain in its gear, then we don't have a problem. In fact, we have buffs. I write this post as in worry, and to hear others' thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for reading.

While I like your suggestion here, I would rather do this for leeching strikes.

Leeching Strikes:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks restore 1539 health and 396 stamina.
• You gain minor mending for 20 seconds.

Code2501

I don't much care for the hot aspect myself. I could run strife and refreshing path for good hots in pve which coupled with light armor shield was enough survivability to solo 90% of the WB's. Where my survivability would a actually suffer from this change is in thr sustain nerf that would make it impossible to keep those hots and shields running with any kind of dps.

efster

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Agreed. Aside from PVP damage dealers (and troll healers *cough*), the SA change is going to decimate the already tiny NB PVE tank population (*cough*). Sure, those of us who are super determined will find ways to make it work, but we shouldn't have to struggle and need to resort to non-class skills to keep playing in our preferred style. Or is that not what ZoS wants for the game -- that any class be able to play any role they choose?

Kerioko

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

This change just killed any version of sap tank that was viable!

Sydria

Keep the PTS changes exactly as they are.

I voted for keeping the changes to show that I'd like to keep the split between the Magicka and Stamina version.
This seems to be what they are going for now with morph balance (see Warden skills for example).

But that does not mean the ability is balanced yet - numbers sure have to be tweaked.

Possible Ideas:
- Lower the cost of the ability to match the lower gain of resources
- Increase the resource gain to match the high cost
- Remove the cost entirely but weaken the heal [Preferred]

I remember that in the Warden Live Stream the devs said something about the Betty Netch being designed without a cost because when a player wants to use the ability to regenerate he will not have resources anyway.

Because of this I would prefer the 3rd Option (remove Cost) - let's stay in line with the Morrowind design philosophy.

NightbladeMechanics

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Kerioko wrote: »

This change just killed any version of sap tank that was viable!

This is true. Losing the ability to proc off of sap essence is a huge deal, but that's the direction ZOS is moving in... Nerfs to vitality pots, desert rose, and blocking also hit sap tanks hard.

Code2501 wrote: »

I don't much care for the hot aspect myself. I could run strife and refreshing path for good hots in pve which coupled with light armor shield was enough survivability to solo 90% of the WB's. Where my survivability would a actually suffer from this change is in thr sustain nerf that would make it impossible to keep those hots and shields running with any kind of dps.

That hot is tiny, too. It is halved by battle spirit, doesn't tick regularly like a traditional lingering hot, and apparently can't crit.

olsborg wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

This thread is more geared toward PvP since PvE sustain is more focused on one resource pool than two.

TLDR: Mageblade relies on coupled magicka and stamina sustain from Siphoning Attacks, so the ability should retain resource return of both types, even if it gets nerfed.

Understand that I'm in full support of a nerf to the skill in the context of sweeping sustain nerfs gamewide, and I'm in full support of everyone needing to build more sustain. However, I reiterate that mageblade's viability and play patterns rely on strong magicka AND stamina sustain mechanics NOT received from gear.

No, those % regen passives are not sufficient. Every class gets some mild sustain passives like those, but active sustain sources are always still required. I know someone's going to get triggered by that.. lol

Mageblade relies on magicka sustain from Siphoning attacks because:

• it has low tooltip damage. Mageblades have to build damage to deal damage. You'll never see a snb heavy Seducer mageblade deal the same damage as a DK or magplar in the same build, nor will a mageblade in Seducer + Engine Guardian be as lethal as a sorc wearing those sets. Sorcs are naturally more lethal with lower spell damage because they have multiple undodgeable attacks and can layer multiple attacks into a single global cooldown.
• it has to constantly cast abilities. A mageblade letting up pressure on its enemies will lose control of the fight, fall on the defensive, and die due to weak defensive mechanics compared to other classes. Mageblades have high sustain demands.

Mageblade relies on stamina sustain from Siphoning attacks because:

• everyone needs stamina sustain from somewhere.
• it can't afford to invest in building stamina sustain via sets, mundus, or jewelry glyphs without losing lethality. Sorcs acquire their stam sustain this way, but sorcs need less stam sustain because they can streak away from fights to regen stam or set up defensive positions with mines and atronach. Sorcs can also afford to build stam regen because they are more lethal at lower spell damage values than mageblades, as I mentioned above.
• mageblade has no burst heal besides ults. DKs have Battle Roar and Helping Hands for stam sustain and a big burst heal. Templars have an equally strong burst heal, but only Repentance for stam sustain. Notice how much time they spend in mist form. Mageblades expend a lot of stamina defensively.

My proposal:

Siphoning Strikes (unmorphed):

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1539 health and restore 396 magicka.

These are the PTS values. I'm trying to stick to those.

Siphoning Attacks:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1539 health and restore 396 magicka and stamina.

Adds stamina return, retaining the bi-stat resource sustain of the live version and the nerfed values of the PTS version.

Leeching Strikes:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks restore 1539 health.
• Your light and heavy attacks apply Minor Defile and Minor Vulnerability for 2 seconds. Attacking another target ends these debuffs and applies them to the new target.

Trades the magicka sustain for a new, highly aggressive morph. Nightblade is the debuff class, so giving it access to these two new and seldom accessible debuffs makes thematic sense. Their short durations and single target requires the nightblade to stay on the offense, choose the correct primary target, and gives the target counterplay. With the sustain constrictions of next patch, this morph will also come with a serious tradeoff.

I picked 2 seconds because that's the current duration of Fasalla's, another debuff which requires constant contact to upkeep. I'd be perfectly happy with a duration of 1.5 seconds, but I don't think the duration should go lower since 1 second is the global cooldown and weaving perfectly at the global cooldown is physically impossible due to hardware delays and travel time of attacks.

Honestly, any alternative for Leeching Strikes would be cool by me. Stam return + heal + one debuff would be appealing to a lot of players as well, as would many other ideas. I picked a combination of effects with no resource return in order to make Siphoning Attacks the dedicated sustain morph and Leeching Strikes the dedicated aggressive morph. Having two sustain morphs (the way it has always been on live) clearly isn't working.

Why should we not have dedicated stam and magicka morphs?

• Stam classes have used magicka skills for utility forever. What else are they going to do with their magicka? Examples include fear, cloak, igneous shield, fossilize, restoring focus, extended ritual, crit surge, and streak. Unless all of those abilities get distinguished stamina morphs, why should Siphoning Attacks have distinguished stamina and magicka morphs?
• Mageblade in particular relies on hybrid resource return for PvP. Brawly play styles of stamblade do as well, but I speak for mageblade.

Now it's entirely possible that the PTS changes are completely fine. If mageblade remains lethal after building sufficient stam sustain in its gear, then we don't have a problem. In fact, we have buffs. I write this post as in worry, and to hear others' thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for reading.

While I like your suggestion here, I would rather do this for leeching strikes.

Leeching Strikes:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks restore 1539 health and 396 stamina.
• You gain minor mending for 20 seconds.

This is an interesting suggestion! I do love nightblade healers. While major mending would be pretty op imo, gaining minor mending as a tradeoff to losing your main sustain tool could be very cool, albeit more defensive in my styles of play than I tend to prefer.

WhiteMage wrote: »

This sounds like a very effective pair of morphs. In fact, this looks like a great idea. I would have a very hard time choosing between these morphs if I were a mNB player.

Thanks dude. I wanted to make the morphs unique and attractive. They can't both be sustain because of reasons stated, so the natural tradeoff to giving up a major sustain tool in my mind was yolo damage!

@bubbygink @The_Outsider @arkansas_ESO you each appear to have solid grasps on the mechanics at play here. I've thought through all of those build adaptations, and ugh...unless the game is rendered such that mageblade can be lethal with two sustain sets, we are going to hurt next patch. And if the game goes that way, all hail magicka sorcs and gankers... The Warden's netch being costless is a good point. In order to fully recoup the 2k cost of Siphoning Attacks, we will have to attack 5 times. That's a third of the ability's duration on live, and a quarter on PTS. I like that Siphoning has a cost, but I don't like that the only resource I get back is the same one I pay to cast it in the first place. At least on live, I'm paying magicka for some immediate stam sustain. The heal component, as I mentioned, is very small, halved by battle spirit, ticks irregularly with your attacks, and apparently cannot crit.

@Zendran I disagree that these changes will gut the class. Mageblade has been "gutted" before. I'll adapt and make it work as usual, but this change will require some serious build and play style changes. I'm considering running the stamina leeching strikes, swapping mark out for ele drain, and slotting radiant magelight for detection, or inner light + spell damage detect pots. We'll see what works best after the patch. One thing is for sure: if this change goes through, mageblade will be clunkier and more difficult to make work.

@Manpoints absolutely. This is one of the few times when I genuinely cocked an eyebrow and doubted anyone in the decision team at ZOS plays the class.

@Sydria I understand where you're coming from with design cohesion. I would ask why the sustain abilities of two separate classes should function off of the same basic mechanics simply for the sake of sharing mechanics. I value class diversity highly. I'll also remind you that in addition to sustain from the netch, Warden has a passive under its healing skill line which returns resources based on which is lower. Could one not argue that since Warden has two stat return mechanics, nightblade too should have mechanics to return both resources simultaneously? Currently, nightblade has only Siphoning attacks. Should it have another stat return mechanic such as minor staminasteal added to the class?

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Let's keep this issue in front of ZOS. We have a small playerbase, so we must make rational arguments, realistic suggestions, and remain vocal.

KingJ

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

olsborg wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

This thread is more geared toward PvP since PvE sustain is more focused on one resource pool than two.

TLDR: Mageblade relies on coupled magicka and stamina sustain from Siphoning Attacks, so the ability should retain resource return of both types, even if it gets nerfed.

Understand that I'm in full support of a nerf to the skill in the context of sweeping sustain nerfs gamewide, and I'm in full support of everyone needing to build more sustain. However, I reiterate that mageblade's viability and play patterns rely on strong magicka AND stamina sustain mechanics NOT received from gear.

No, those % regen passives are not sufficient. Every class gets some mild sustain passives like those, but active sustain sources are always still required. I know someone's going to get triggered by that.. lol

Mageblade relies on magicka sustain from Siphoning attacks because:

• it has low tooltip damage. Mageblades have to build damage to deal damage. You'll never see a snb heavy Seducer mageblade deal the same damage as a DK or magplar in the same build, nor will a mageblade in Seducer + Engine Guardian be as lethal as a sorc wearing those sets. Sorcs are naturally more lethal with lower spell damage because they have multiple undodgeable attacks and can layer multiple attacks into a single global cooldown.
• it has to constantly cast abilities. A mageblade letting up pressure on its enemies will lose control of the fight, fall on the defensive, and die due to weak defensive mechanics compared to other classes. Mageblades have high sustain demands.

Mageblade relies on stamina sustain from Siphoning attacks because:

• everyone needs stamina sustain from somewhere.
• it can't afford to invest in building stamina sustain via sets, mundus, or jewelry glyphs without losing lethality. Sorcs acquire their stam sustain this way, but sorcs need less stam sustain because they can streak away from fights to regen stam or set up defensive positions with mines and atronach. Sorcs can also afford to build stam regen because they are more lethal at lower spell damage values than mageblades, as I mentioned above.
• mageblade has no burst heal besides ults. DKs have Battle Roar and Helping Hands for stam sustain and a big burst heal. Templars have an equally strong burst heal, but only Repentance for stam sustain. Notice how much time they spend in mist form. Mageblades expend a lot of stamina defensively.

My proposal:

Siphoning Strikes (unmorphed):

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1539 health and restore 396 magicka.

These are the PTS values. I'm trying to stick to those.

Siphoning Attacks:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1539 health and restore 396 magicka and stamina.

Adds stamina return, retaining the bi-stat resource sustain of the live version and the nerfed values of the PTS version.

Leeching Strikes:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks restore 1539 health.
• Your light and heavy attacks apply Minor Defile and Minor Vulnerability for 2 seconds. Attacking another target ends these debuffs and applies them to the new target.

Trades the magicka sustain for a new, highly aggressive morph. Nightblade is the debuff class, so giving it access to these two new and seldom accessible debuffs makes thematic sense. Their short durations and single target requires the nightblade to stay on the offense, choose the correct primary target, and gives the target counterplay. With the sustain constrictions of next patch, this morph will also come with a serious tradeoff.

I picked 2 seconds because that's the current duration of Fasalla's, another debuff which requires constant contact to upkeep. I'd be perfectly happy with a duration of 1.5 seconds, but I don't think the duration should go lower since 1 second is the global cooldown and weaving perfectly at the global cooldown is physically impossible due to hardware delays and travel time of attacks.

Honestly, any alternative for Leeching Strikes would be cool by me. Stam return + heal + one debuff would be appealing to a lot of players as well, as would many other ideas. I picked a combination of effects with no resource return in order to make Siphoning Attacks the dedicated sustain morph and Leeching Strikes the dedicated aggressive morph. Having two sustain morphs (the way it has always been on live) clearly isn't working.

Why should we not have dedicated stam and magicka morphs?

• Stam classes have used magicka skills for utility forever. What else are they going to do with their magicka? Examples include fear, cloak, igneous shield, fossilize, restoring focus, extended ritual, crit surge, and streak. Unless all of those abilities get distinguished stamina morphs, why should Siphoning Attacks have distinguished stamina and magicka morphs?
• Mageblade in particular relies on hybrid resource return for PvP. Brawly play styles of stamblade do as well, but I speak for mageblade.

Now it's entirely possible that the PTS changes are completely fine. If mageblade remains lethal after building sufficient stam sustain in its gear, then we don't have a problem. In fact, we have buffs. I write this post as in worry, and to hear others' thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for reading.

While I like your suggestion here, I would rather do this for leeching strikes.

Leeching Strikes:

• costs magicka
• lasts 20 seconds
• Your light and heavy attacks restore 1539 health and 500 stamina.
• You gain minor mending for 20 seconds.

@olsborg I like this idea very much. @Wrobel how about make changes like this.

LiquidPony

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Just revert it back to what it was before Homestead.

A number of people looked at the upcoming sustain changes and predicted that NBs would make a comeback in PvE since they have Siphoning Strikes. Now that Siphoning Strikes has been nerfed (again), NBs are firmly at the back of the bus.

kadar

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

And if the game goes that way, all hail magicka sorcs and gankers...

It already seems that way on live (at least in 'zura's star where I've been for the past few months).

Warden's netch being costless is a good point. In order to fully recoup the 2k cost of Siphoning Attacks, we will have to attack 5 times. That's a third of the ability's duration on live, and a quarter on PTS. I like that Siphoning has a cost, but I don't like that the only resource I get back is the same one I pay to cast it in the first place. At least on live, I'm paying magicka for some immediate stam sustain.

Yup. And how long will it take me to land 5 light attacks in the heat of combat against roll-dodging, cloaking, shuffling targets? And that's if I've got a bow or a Staff! How long will it take me on my DW/2H build? 10 seconds? 15? The purpose of Siphoning attacks is resource management and now: survivability. The new iteration of the skill simply provides none of that.

I can only hope the Devs are listening and are willing to reevaluate the skill. *furrows brow, clenches cheeks and begins summoning* @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

NightbladeMechanics

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

The_Outsider wrote: »

And if the game goes that way, all hail magicka sorcs and gankers...

It already seems that way on live (at least in 'zura's star where I've been for the past few months).

Warden's netch being costless is a good point. In order to fully recoup the 2k cost of Siphoning Attacks, we will have to attack 5 times. That's a third of the ability's duration on live, and a quarter on PTS. I like that Siphoning has a cost, but I don't like that the only resource I get back is the same one I pay to cast it in the first place. At least on live, I'm paying magicka for some immediate stam sustain.

Yup. And how long will it take me to land 5 light attacks in the heat of combat against roll-dodging, cloaking, shuffling targets? And that's if I've got a bow or a Staff! How long will it take me on my DW/2H build? 10 seconds? 15? The purpose of Siphoning attacks is resource management and now: survivability. The new iteration of the skill simply provides none of that.

I can only hope the Devs are listening and are willing to reevaluate the skill. *furrows brow, clenches cheeks and begins summoning* @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The breakeven and best case scenarios are too close, exactly. Hopefully they listen.

I don't see the pts versions of these morphs being used by stamblades at all. They are much less reliant on SA for sustain than mageblade and can adapt in other ways.

It's that stam sustain that makes it so crucial for magicka players.

kadar

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

And if the game goes that way, all hail magicka sorcs and gankers...

It already seems that way on live (at least in 'zura's star where I've been for the past few months).

Warden's netch being costless is a good point. In order to fully recoup the 2k cost of Siphoning Attacks, we will have to attack 5 times. That's a third of the ability's duration on live, and a quarter on PTS. I like that Siphoning has a cost, but I don't like that the only resource I get back is the same one I pay to cast it in the first place. At least on live, I'm paying magicka for some immediate stam sustain.

Yup. And how long will it take me to land 5 light attacks in the heat of combat against roll-dodging, cloaking, shuffling targets? And that's if I've got a bow or a Staff! How long will it take me on my DW/2H build? 10 seconds? 15? The purpose of Siphoning attacks is resource management and now: survivability. The new iteration of the skill simply provides none of that.

I can only hope the Devs are listening and are willing to reevaluate the skill. *furrows brow, clenches cheeks and begins summoning* @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The breakeven and best case scenarios are too close, exactly. Hopefully they listen.

I don't see the pts versions of these morphs being used by stamblades at all. They are much less reliant on SA for sustain than mageblade and can adapt in other ways.

It's that stam sustain that makes it so crucial for magicka players.

Right. Although I consider NB in general to be performing below the other classes, I'd agree mNB is worse off than Stam. And I'd place mNB at the lowest of all builds possible atm, Magicka and Stam.

I"m sure that it's simply not worth the skill slot for the sNB anymore. I'll just slot relentless and take the 10% passive recovery. Stam NB will be deprived of a powerful skill an given a non-useful one and mNBs will be forced to run it anyway, lol.

Magıc

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Not sure what they're thinking with this change. Agree with you Kena. Nerfed sure, but to take away it's stam returns is silly.

NightbladeMechanics

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

The_Outsider wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

And if the game goes that way, all hail magicka sorcs and gankers...

It already seems that way on live (at least in 'zura's star where I've been for the past few months).

Warden's netch being costless is a good point. In order to fully recoup the 2k cost of Siphoning Attacks, we will have to attack 5 times. That's a third of the ability's duration on live, and a quarter on PTS. I like that Siphoning has a cost, but I don't like that the only resource I get back is the same one I pay to cast it in the first place. At least on live, I'm paying magicka for some immediate stam sustain.

Yup. And how long will it take me to land 5 light attacks in the heat of combat against roll-dodging, cloaking, shuffling targets? And that's if I've got a bow or a Staff! How long will it take me on my DW/2H build? 10 seconds? 15? The purpose of Siphoning attacks is resource management and now: survivability. The new iteration of the skill simply provides none of that.

I can only hope the Devs are listening and are willing to reevaluate the skill. *furrows brow, clenches cheeks and begins summoning* @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The breakeven and best case scenarios are too close, exactly. Hopefully they listen.

I don't see the pts versions of these morphs being used by stamblades at all. They are much less reliant on SA for sustain than mageblade and can adapt in other ways.

It's that stam sustain that makes it so crucial for magicka players.

Stam NB will be deprived of a powerful skill an given a non-useful one and mNBs will be forced to run it anyway, lol.

LOL wow that really stings.

kadar

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

And if the game goes that way, all hail magicka sorcs and gankers...

It already seems that way on live (at least in 'zura's star where I've been for the past few months).

Warden's netch being costless is a good point. In order to fully recoup the 2k cost of Siphoning Attacks, we will have to attack 5 times. That's a third of the ability's duration on live, and a quarter on PTS. I like that Siphoning has a cost, but I don't like that the only resource I get back is the same one I pay to cast it in the first place. At least on live, I'm paying magicka for some immediate stam sustain.

Yup. And how long will it take me to land 5 light attacks in the heat of combat against roll-dodging, cloaking, shuffling targets? And that's if I've got a bow or a Staff! How long will it take me on my DW/2H build? 10 seconds? 15? The purpose of Siphoning attacks is resource management and now: survivability. The new iteration of the skill simply provides none of that.

I can only hope the Devs are listening and are willing to reevaluate the skill. *furrows brow, clenches cheeks and begins summoning* @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The breakeven and best case scenarios are too close, exactly. Hopefully they listen.

I don't see the pts versions of these morphs being used by stamblades at all. They are much less reliant on SA for sustain than mageblade and can adapt in other ways.

It's that stam sustain that makes it so crucial for magicka players.

Stam NB will be deprived of a powerful skill an given a non-useful one and mNBs will be forced to run it anyway, lol.

LOL wow that really stings.

LOL IKR. Truth hurts? IDK....

I feel ya, I really do. I had just started to really play my new baby Mageblade when the Notes came out...

edit: I liek your siggy. Did you have that before the patch notes came out or after?

GreenSoup2HoT

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I disagree with the direction OP proposes. I'd much rather be infavor of the new ability changes but with an added bonus of when the duration expires, cost of the ability is restored.

I personally prefer fighting a magicka nightblade that does not have an endless supply of stamina due to the way siphoning strikes works currently. At least with these changes, stamina may be able to beat a magicka user by draining their stamina and a magicka user may be able to beat a stamina user by applying lots of pressure due to stamina's lack of healing.

The whole argument is that the ability is a waste of a cast because you cannot get the returns fast enough to even make casting worth. So having the cost returned after the duration would remedy this. I actually like the way zos changed the ability but just don't agree with the cost.

Also to add some spice, double the returns on heavy attacks.

kadar

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

I disagree with the direction OP proposes. I'd much rather be infavor of the new ability changes but with an added bonus of when the duration expires, cost of the ability is restored.

I personally prefer fighting a magicka nightblade that does not have an endless supply of stamina due to the way siphoning strikes works currently. At least with these changes, stamina may be able to beat a magicka user by draining their stamina and a magicka user may be able to beat a stamina user by applying lots of pressure due to stamina's lack of healing.

The whole argument is that the ability is a waste of a cast because you cannot get the returns fast enough to even make casting worth. So having the cost returned after the duration would remedy this. I actually like the way zos changed the ability but just don't agree with the cost.

Also to add some spice, double the returns on heavy attacks.

The issue with that, is that currently the strength of the skill is to have 100% uptime during combat. You'd be refreshing it before the duration expired based on the ebb and flow of combat, so you'd never get that resource refund.

I'm also okay with the way they changed the ability, although I do prefer the old functionality. I'm just not okay with where the values landed based on the stated purpose of the change. Basically, the new version is a nerf to survivability when it's whole purpose is to aid our survivability.

CavalryPK

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Mostly pvper here.

Magicka.

I had the chance to duel in PTS. and I gotta say.. with 1400 mana regen and using SS and pots. I felt that my magicka sustain was worse but not horrible. if I threw in couple of heavy resto attacks I feel like I would do a good job of sustaining.

Stamina.

If I used stamina only for break free, 10k stamina was plenty to do it after every CC. The problem started when In anticipation of a upcoming burst. I would block.. which would cost additional stamina... if i blocked then i could not break free from the next CC.. = Dead .. this is when I felt I needed to gimp my damage potential for more stamina recovery/pool. I also swapped fire staff to frost. which added tankiness and additional 8% damage loss.

Basically with the current change If I want to keep my damage potential..... blocking and roll dodging is not an option. basically any upcoming bursts I have to welcome with open arms.

I like @NightbladeMechanics suggestion to add stamina recovery for SS. As a magblade SS would be a Must.

This is what I would like to see:

Siphoning Strikes:

• •costs no magicka
• •lasts 15 seconds
• •Your light and heavy attacks restore 396 magicka and stamina.

Just like warden you cast this skill to regen mag and stam... its not like the pet. where you cast it once and you are done. you have to constantly light attack to get the resources back.

Leeching Strikes:

• •costs magicka
• •lasts 20 seconds
• •Your light and heavy attacks apply Minor Defile and Minor Vulnerability for 2 seconds. Attacking another target ends these debuffs and applies them to the new target.

Since you are getting constant 2 debuff's on the target you are forgoing any and all recovery. but it does not stick to you enemy for a certain duration. you have to light attack to keep them debuffed.