PTS Feedback Thread for Class Balance

waitwhat

Zarrakon wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Here is just some of what needs to happen to stop Sorcs from being so insanely overpowered:

-Shields need to be crittable
-Bastion needs to be removed
-Pirate skeleton needs real nerfs
-Lich, Amberplasm, Synablade all need to be nerfed
-There needs to be a debuff to reduce shield effectiveness

It's not like there's a set you could wear that could counter shield-stacking sorcerers. I mean, even if there was such a set, I'm sure it would take a ton of skill to use.

Shields are already expensive in PvP (and PvE!), and they're only getting more expensive with the cost reduction changes.

@Zarrakon

That one set doesn't make your point valid because it should not be the acceptable answer to shields. No one should have to sacrifice an entire set just to be competitive against sorc shield stacking. It is unreasonable to offer that set as a solution.

waitwhat

Weps wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Just one word:
"LICH".

Plus, seriously, every class had those nerfs.
Every. Single. Class.


We've already been through the sorcs' mummer victimism that gave us that Haunting Curse crap, you're not making a fool of nobody this time.
It's easy to argument this way, measuring apples and oranges together.

You won't need to mindlessly spam streak or shields anymore.
One of it would be enough for the whole zerg to stop chasing you because nobody will have enough resources to chase you down and fight you.
And even if they do, you still have enough magicka to put on 2 shields, which are way more than enough to cover yourself from the 2 attacks a stamina build could do after a 20mt chase.
And even if they're crazy enough to attack you while behind an uncrittable, unbreakable wall ( remember that now people will be less powerful if they have enough resources to engage you after a streak ), you still can just cast a curse, a force pulse and you'll gain right to use your TWO EXECUTIONS, against a player who will now have just enough juice to either block or dodge his way out without the chance to heal and avoid that utterly ugly and cancerous execute passive.
And even if someone can survive all of this and kill you, well, you're finally back to reality.
I hope you've enjoyed your holiday in Cancer Paradise but being chased, zerged, drained and nuked is the every day reality of every single class besides pre-Morrowind Magplars, who still aren't as powerful as this two-three buttons class.

And this is for solo playing, sorcs groups will be a new form of STD, you'll need condoms on your pads to play in PvP.

And don't even let me start with the stamina counterpart who can easily go full proc damage, one-two shot you with a good combo and then dark deal and streak the hell out.

Meanwhile you have classes like magblades who have been eradicated from existence;
Magplars who will be forced to basically sit there all day and try to heal in their heavy armour without the chance to do damage otherwise the entire group will perish;
And magicka DKs who still have no execution and the worst sustain in the game ( just like stamplars or even worse ), so they will have to get in your face ( burning almost all the stamina ), root you one time ( burning a quarter of magicka ) only to see you Streak away from it, then chase you down again going empty on stamina and root you again and from that point on proceeding to whip your shields until the end of time.

Here's a preview of a Dk whipping an NPC for next patch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y

Please, enjoy being the only viable class with the Warden for the next six months but don't try to sell us the "Poor baby, our resources got nerf'd the most" lie, when you deserved to join the Magblades into the Book of the almost extinct species of Tamriel.

Someone sticky this please. @Weps

waitwhat

Zarrakon wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Also I played a magic sorc I thought sorcs were OP especially with getting hit with 8k curses in medium armor and instant dying from curses if I get close to 20%.It must be me no way they are this strong so I played my magsorc I haven't used since DB.5 lich 5 spinners Pirate skeleton and it was just stupid there strong to say otherwise is just not true there not Op we can agree on that but they are a head of the other magic classes this patch and even more so next patch when it comes to pve and pvp.If nothing changes when it comes to sorcs both magic and stam there no point playing anything else.

If you're doing purely PvP, can you please try exactly the same build on a magicka nightblade with dampen magic? Between cripple, funnel health, soul harvest, their execute and merciless resolve, you should be at least as effective, if not more.

@Zarrakon

I'd like to hear your suggestion for a stamina class that would be just as effective, besides the one-shot gankers everyone seems to hate.

KingJ

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Very concerned about eclipse being unbreakable. You can make the game friendly to new and casual players without outright removing counterplay.

Keep in mind that destro mageblade is 100% reflectable. This eclipse change is a direct shot at one of pvp's weakest classes.

I highly doubt your going to see many destro magebladed next patch probably not going see mag blades at all next patch.

Fine, just delete my class from the game.

t3hdubzy wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Very concerned about eclipse being unbreakable. You can make the game friendly to new and casual players without outright removing counterplay.

Keep in mind that destro mageblade is 100% reflectable. This eclipse change is a direct shot at one of pvp's weakest classes.

You can drop your survivabilty and sustain to protect yourself against this. Your whole mission in pvp will be to dive on the eclipse for your group.

In other words, I might as well play a sorc to burst the magplar even when I am eclipsed?

But in seriousness, no. I'm not running some group-reliant straight damage build to potato around with.

@NightbladeMechanics Didn't you know that been @Wrobel plan for the last few Updates. Make every magblade switch to sorc. They don't want to see you shine they just want you to gank/bomb. Which sucks of you want to play your NB any other way but hey its what we get shafted without lube every update.

waitwhat

Drdeath20 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Hi. You're wrong. PVP more.

Magplar is currently at the top due to heals and destro últ, to say nothing of javelin and flare.

Magsorc right behind with excellent defense (rotate shields with resource gain abilities and reduced ultimate cost.

Magicka rules PVP now. Complaints about stam in pvp are without merit, even if you get one-shot ganked.

Everyclass has heals and can use a destro staff.

@Drdeath20

Completely false.

1) Stamina classes do not have acces to the heals of templars.
2) Templars, currently, vastly outpace all other classes as healers.
3) Stamina classes don't have acces to the detro últ as a credible damage dealer.

See what you did there...not knowing anything about stam?

Zarrakon

waitwhat wrote: »

Zarrakon wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Also I played a magic sorc I thought sorcs were OP especially with getting hit with 8k curses in medium armor and instant dying from curses if I get close to 20%.It must be me no way they are this strong so I played my magsorc I haven't used since DB.5 lich 5 spinners Pirate skeleton and it was just stupid there strong to say otherwise is just not true there not Op we can agree on that but they are a head of the other magic classes this patch and even more so next patch when it comes to pve and pvp.If nothing changes when it comes to sorcs both magic and stam there no point playing anything else.

If you're doing purely PvP, can you please try exactly the same build on a magicka nightblade with dampen magic? Between cripple, funnel health, soul harvest, their execute and merciless resolve, you should be at least as effective, if not more.

@Zarrakon

I'd like to hear your suggestion for a stamina class that would be just as effective, besides the one-shot gankers everyone seems to hate.

Stamina characters have extremely powerful bow abilities (really, try ballista + poison injection + focused aim + charged bow attack from stealth against any magicka character). This is probably the kind of 'one-shot ganker' you don't want to hear about, though I'm not sure why. Magicka sorcerers (or any magicka build that isn't a nightblade afaik) can't put out anywhere near near the burst damage of stamina characters unless someone holds still and stands in destro ult (and FYI, if you have a bow on your backbar, roll dodge + sprint will get you away from eye of the storm faster than they can streak). Bursting people down before they can even react is one of your biggest strengths as a stamina character.

Stamina characters can also roll dodge, sprint and break free MUCH more reliably and more often (a typical PvE magicka build will be out of stamina in 2-3 roll dodges/break frees, and even taking cost reduction passives/adding some stamina won't extend this by much unless you start really sacrificing max magicka and shield strength).

t3hdubzy

Zarrakon wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Zarrakon wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Also I played a magic sorc I thought sorcs were OP especially with getting hit with 8k curses in medium armor and instant dying from curses if I get close to 20%.It must be me no way they are this strong so I played my magsorc I haven't used since DB.5 lich 5 spinners Pirate skeleton and it was just stupid there strong to say otherwise is just not true there not Op we can agree on that but they are a head of the other magic classes this patch and even more so next patch when it comes to pve and pvp.If nothing changes when it comes to sorcs both magic and stam there no point playing anything else.

If you're doing purely PvP, can you please try exactly the same build on a magicka nightblade with dampen magic? Between cripple, funnel health, soul harvest, their execute and merciless resolve, you should be at least as effective, if not more.

@Zarrakon

I'd like to hear your suggestion for a stamina class that would be just as effective, besides the one-shot gankers everyone seems to hate.

Stamina characters have extremely powerful bow abilities (really, try ballista + poison injection + focused aim + charged bow attack from stealth against any magicka character). This is probably the kind of 'one-shot ganker' you don't want to hear about, though I'm not sure why. Magicka sorcerers (or any magicka build that isn't a nightblade afaik) can't put out anywhere near near the burst damage of stamina characters unless someone holds still and stands in destro ult (and FYI, if you have a bow on your backbar, roll dodge + sprint will get you away from eye of the storm faster than they can streak). Bursting people down before they can even react is one of your biggest strengths as a stamina character.

Stamina characters can also roll dodge, sprint and break free MUCH more reliably and more often (a typical PvE magicka build will be out of stamina in 2-3 roll dodges/break frees, and even taking cost reduction passives/adding some stamina won't extend this by much unless you start really sacrificing max magicka and shield strength).

Ur kidding me right? Magika users can one shot gank just like stamina.

There are multiple ways to elude your target, and magika users can still go heavy offense when immobilized in some cases.

My mag dk does just fine with 9800 stamina and i am not a vampire. If im particularly having trouble with break free i can use the jewels of misrule food or tri stat depending on my mood.

Theres also immovable pots and other ways to stay in the fight against stuns and cc.

Capsaica

I came up with this while on another thread talking about sneak speed and comments were made about the general lack of mobility for templars. How about adding some mobility to the templar passive Sacred Ground to compensate for the loss of Major Mending? It is actually complimentary to the passive's 30% snare of enemy players. Here's my post from the other thread:

"To follow up on a comment about Templar mobility here: As a player who also has played a templar healer a significant amount of time as well, I feel your pain on the utter lack of mobility a magicka templar has. With all of the uproar over major mending being removed from the Templar's passives and being replaced with minor mending only, perhaps they can sweeten that deal a bit and add major expedition to the passive? I'd take that any day of the week on my templar. I'll figure out other ways to over-heal my group tyvm.

Edit the passive to say:
While standing in your own Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage areas of effect and for up to 4 seconds after leaving them you gain Minor Mending and Major Expedition, increasing your healing done by 8%, and your movement speed by 30%.
Enemies standing in your Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus or Rite of Passage areas of effect have their Movement Speed reduced by 30%."

Autolycus

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno

I'm not sure if you two are the appropriate persons to poke about this. If not, I would appreciate if you would forward this on to the appropriate team or individual, thanks!

The current functionality of Siphoning Attacks (SA) and Leeching Strikes (LS) is counter-intuitive and its current design does not allow for adequate use of the utility the skill is supposed to provide. As a long-time NB tank I am well aware of how potent this skill has been historically, and while I don't intend to fight you guys on the merit of changing it in this update, I urge you to reconsider the costs and benefits of this skill.

In ESO Live a few weeks ago you guys explicitly stated that you want the Warden's Netch to remain free of cost, so that players do not find themselves in a situation where they are completely out of the resource that would be provided by the Netch, but would be unable to cast it to reap the benefit of the skill. As such, the resource return on Netch would, in theory, be lower than if it had a cost. The current design of SA and LS prevents NBs from seeing a large enough benefit to make casting it worthwhile.

I've been testing how the new forms of these skills work on the PTS in dungeons and trials. I've tried a number of different combinations through recovery and reduced cost that would enable me to make efficient use of those stats in combination with skills like SA and LS. My opinion is that one of two three things needs to happen for this skill in order to make it balanced to other classes (Edit: I have a third suggestion now):
1. Remove the up-front cost of SA and LS, and keep the resource return low (as it is already very low), -or-
2. Increase the amount of resources returned on those light attacks by at least a couple hundred points.
3. Change SA so that it costs stamina to cast, and LS so that it costs magicka to cast, and keep the return values.

It currently takes 25% of the up-time on SA and LS to break-even on its cost. Casting this at the start or during a fight does not enable me to sustain for any respectable amount of time beyond what I can do without it. It barely covers the cost of 2-3 skills for even a perfect player, assuming we're all robots that hit light attacks on every GCD and never have to pay mind to a mechanic, be it from an NPC or a player. If I'm low on a resource, using this skill will bring me even lower (it will most likely dry up my resource completely), and then it will be at least 5 seconds before I see any net gain from this skill.

As it stands currently, SA and LS are extremely cost-prohibitive. Adding recovery or reduced cost does nothing to make this skill viable; the skill itself needs to be worth using, or we just won't slot it. These changes are more drastic for NBs than for other classes - with respect to balance, these changes have actually widened the gap (with regards to sustain) relative to DKs and Sorcs. They are reasonable in concept, but their current cost/benefit values on the PTS are so prohibitive that this class skill is virtually obsolete now. A really, really good player will have a hard time making good use of this skill (might as well not use it, just have reduced cost glyphs). A casual, new, or returning player will likely not ever be able to balance the costs against its benefit because these players typically miss a lot of light attacks already. I don't see solo players using it at all (as reduced cost and recovery is far and away more bang-for-buck). It's now a more difficult skill to use for all NBs across the entire spectrum.

If you are looking to render this skill obsolete, then keep it as-is. I see no point in casting it to begin with; I know it's not going to improve my sustain. As mentioned before, the first 5 seconds of its duration is spent recovering its cost. The remaining 15s of its duration, assuming no mechanics and a flawless rotation, will net me just under 6000 magicka or stamina before I have to re-cast it. This is approximately the cost of 2-3 skills. I don't know about you guys, but we do almost 13-15 skills in that time, not 3. We might as well not use it at all....

Vosital

Devs, please, just step into PvP for a second and you will see nothing but Sorcs. Do you really think we want to play Elder Sorcs Online for 3 more months after Morrowind, and then hope that you do something about it in the patch after?

Elevenstorm

I'd like to see a change for Nightblades. A portion of our passives are useless in PvE as they rely on cloak and invisibility. Lets change one of our ultimates, preferably one of the least used ones, to a 10-20 second invisibility ability. While in this (shade) form we do extra damage with all of our abilities, benefit from our passives, stay invisible the entire time even while taking damage, and take reduced damage. I know whats going to be said, "this will be OP in pvp." The cost could be high and the magelights, reveals, potions would remove us from stealth using this ability. PVE is unaffected by those abilities.

Or, zos could change the nightblade passives to something that doesn't require the use of cloak/invisibility to benefit from. Then, they'd have to just change the name and call us something else.

Lapin_Logic

3.0.1 PTS Nightblade MAGICKA TANK results

The change to orb, spear synergy is better for the rest of the game, but running a magicka heavy nightblade tank (shade, funnel health, refreshing path, reapers mark, inner rage) means you have to choose between running your buffs, or your block resource pool, if this patch is focusing players toward hybrid builds, i am confused as to why the oldest hybrid build (the NB sap tank) has been hit hardest, I fully utilise both my stamina and magicka, we have lost the 10% proc on siphoning attacks and now also have to move resources from health or magicka to make my stamina pool larger than my magicka further reducing the amount of skills i can use/buffs i can give to my group.

An example of a fight where you have to fill in/help others in the group. DUNGEON Blackheart Haven, me (tank) has become the skeleton, healer is taking a pounding and spamming to keep everyone up, I come out of skeleton phase and immediately the healer becomes the skeleton. previously i had decent heals (not enough to replace a healer, but enough to buffer untill the healer could come back) with sap and funnel and refreshing path, also back bar resto staff to hit a friendly with a healing ward for a clutch save, in the new patch i am either more squishy due to lower health, or my heals hit for less and also be more difficult to cast due to a smaller pool and and increased cost just to be able to make use of the shard synergy to ensure I gain stamina to block/bash.

I have a couple of suggestions.

1. seeing as templar can get stamina from magicka via repent/spears, DK can use ultimates and earthen heart skills, sorcs can use dark deal and warden can gain stamina with the netch.

also each class gives the GROUP a Major/minor buff (DK brutality/sorcery, templar gives magicka steal, warden gives toughness, sorcs ensure high off balance with lightning staff and the CP passive),

maybe NB could give the group STAMINA STEAL, for instance refreshing path, any enemies ON the path are inflicted with stamina steal giving any friendly players the ability to gain stamina by attacking the target x per second, this would not effect PVP as players would never stand on the path and stamina users would rarely drop a skill to run refreshing path on a stamina build, this change could also see NB more welcome in groups.

or

2. shards restore 25% of the value to your lower stat after restoring your higher stat pool, this change would also promote hybrid builds and benefit all tanks.

PS i do have all other classes as tanks but i have always fallen back to my NB tank as i find the play style the most enjoyable, yes it might not be the best tank or the ideal/meta for a tank but thats what i like about elder scrolls online, i can pick out of the box gear and craft a valuable character that performs a role but in a different way.

I hope I conveyed my thoughts in a clear manner and provided food for discussion and i look forward to seeing the next patch changes

Lapin_Logic

Neighbor wrote: »

What they need to do to Shields:

-Remove Bastion CP
-Remove Pirate Skeleton
-Increase cost for consecutive shield casts
-Remove the ability to stack Harness + other shields
-Reduce the magika received from Harness
-Add debuffs that reduce the effectiveness of shields

Honestly, the fact that shields can't be critted causes so much problems though. It just allows Sorcs to go full offense while every other class has to spec for impen. That just makes the damage Sorcs can do that much more ridiculous.

I think an acceptable change to shields would be the only mitigate 75% of the attack. I.E if a player hits your 10k shield with a 10k attack instead of the attack and shield just vanishing the shield should take 7500 damage and your health bar take 2500 damage, this should mitigate constantly seeing (6500)(2560)(1694)(4582) while the sorc stays on full health, casting his shield proced crystal frags which they throw at you just as haunting curse explodes and endless fury explodes before you can hit vigor

Drdeath20

waitwhat wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Hi. You're wrong. PVP more.

Magplar is currently at the top due to heals and destro últ, to say nothing of javelin and flare.

Magsorc right behind with excellent defense (rotate shields with resource gain abilities and reduced ultimate cost.

Magicka rules PVP now. Complaints about stam in pvp are without merit, even if you get one-shot ganked.

Everyclass has heals and can use a destro staff.

@Drdeath20

Completely false.

1) Stamina classes do not have acces to the heals of templars.
2) Templars, currently, vastly outpace all other classes as healers.
3) Stamina classes don't have acces to the detro últ as a credible damage dealer.

See what you did there...not knowing anything about stam?

Since when is Stamina a class?

D0ntevenL1ft

NBrookus wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Is major mending change to DK that much of a deal for a stamDK?

Vigor is a buff-type hot, thus not scalling dynamically but is static and it's power and crit chance is decided at the moment of casting and kept for the whole duration.
So casting Igneous Shield and Vigor right after will ensure 5 seconds of a buffed Vigor by Major Mending, it doesn't matter if the shield is destroyed afterwards.
Or will the shield be destroyed even before casting Vigor?

It's very likely the tiny shield will be gone before you can cast Vigor/CDB. If stam DK pulls off a Vigor, they'll get some nice HoT. Plus stam DK has other mitigation options, like dodging and sprinting. If magDK can pull of a CDB, they'll have the same burst heal we've had for 3 months, otherwise it's a nerf to CDB.

But the various HoTs magDK gets from attacking (power lash/embers/deep breath) will no longer have windows of major mending. And TBH, major mending + burning embers was really strong. Nerfing BE alone would have been reasonable.

Now DK healers and support toons can't buff their group with major mending, nor can templars -- only Warden can do that now.

From a magDK point of view, Igneous probably won't make it to my bar. Harness Magicka is superior and for solo/pvp resto staff seems unavoidable as of now. (Except heavy attack ganks builds, of which there will be many, many more.)

Not sure if you just said sprinting is a viable mitigation option? The class that ZOS has said over and over again is meant to stand and fight is now supposed to SPRINT AWAY? What is happening to this game.

Durham

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Is major mending change to DK that much of a deal for a stamDK?

Vigor is a buff-type hot, thus not scalling dynamically but is static and it's power and crit chance is decided at the moment of casting and kept for the whole duration.
So casting Igneous Shield and Vigor right after will ensure 5 seconds of a buffed Vigor by Major Mending, it doesn't matter if the shield is destroyed afterwards.
Or will the shield be destroyed even before casting Vigor?

It's very likely the tiny shield will be gone before you can cast Vigor/CDB. If stam DK pulls off a Vigor, they'll get some nice HoT. Plus stam DK has other mitigation options, like dodging and sprinting. If magDK can pull of a CDB, they'll have the same burst heal we've had for 3 months, otherwise it's a nerf to CDB.

But the various HoTs magDK gets from attacking (power lash/embers/deep breath) will no longer have windows of major mending. And TBH, major mending + burning embers was really strong. Nerfing BE alone would have been reasonable.

Now DK healers and support toons can't buff their group with major mending, nor can templars -- only Warden can do that now.

From a magDK point of view, Igneous probably won't make it to my bar. Harness Magicka is superior and for solo/pvp resto staff seems unavoidable as of now. (Except heavy attack ganks builds, of which there will be many, many more.)

Not sure if you just said sprinting is a viable mitigation option? The class that ZOS has said over and over again is meant to stand and fight is now supposed to SPRINT AWAY? What is happening to this game.

Stam DK will be history in Cyrodil after the patch ... just the blocking change will do the damage you add the class nerfs some of which are up to 60% reduction of resources... then you add the universal nerfs ... there is no standing and fighting.... a stam sorc with rapid strikes will drain you quick of your stam... there were 9 big nerfs to stam dragon knight meta..

NBrookus

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Is major mending change to DK that much of a deal for a stamDK?

Vigor is a buff-type hot, thus not scalling dynamically but is static and it's power and crit chance is decided at the moment of casting and kept for the whole duration.
So casting Igneous Shield and Vigor right after will ensure 5 seconds of a buffed Vigor by Major Mending, it doesn't matter if the shield is destroyed afterwards.
Or will the shield be destroyed even before casting Vigor?

It's very likely the tiny shield will be gone before you can cast Vigor/CDB. If stam DK pulls off a Vigor, they'll get some nice HoT. Plus stam DK has other mitigation options, like dodging and sprinting. If magDK can pull of a CDB, they'll have the same burst heal we've had for 3 months, otherwise it's a nerf to CDB.

But the various HoTs magDK gets from attacking (power lash/embers/deep breath) will no longer have windows of major mending. And TBH, major mending + burning embers was really strong. Nerfing BE alone would have been reasonable.

Now DK healers and support toons can't buff their group with major mending, nor can templars -- only Warden can do that now.

From a magDK point of view, Igneous probably won't make it to my bar. Harness Magicka is superior and for solo/pvp resto staff seems unavoidable as of now. (Except heavy attack ganks builds, of which there will be many, many more.)

Not sure if you just said sprinting is a viable mitigation option? The class that ZOS has said over and over again is meant to stand and fight is now supposed to SPRINT AWAY? What is happening to this game.

We have unbreakable negates and unblockable destro ults now and the only counter play is to run away. It's stupid.

DK used to be the stand-your-ground class. I dunno what they are now.

waitwhat

Drdeath20 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Hi. You're wrong. PVP more.

Magplar is currently at the top due to heals and destro últ, to say nothing of javelin and flare.

Magsorc right behind with excellent defense (rotate shields with resource gain abilities and reduced ultimate cost.

Magicka rules PVP now. Complaints about stam in pvp are without merit, even if you get one-shot ganked.

Everyclass has heals and can use a destro staff.

@Drdeath20

Completely false.

1) Stamina classes do not have acces to the heals of templars.
2) Templars, currently, vastly outpace all other classes as healers.
3) Stamina classes don't have acces to the detro últ as a credible damage dealer.

See what you did there...not knowing anything about stam?

Since when is Stamina a class?

@Drdeath20

Since the time stamblades, stamDks, and stamplars have been around. So basically, forever.

The larger point here, once we're done mincing words, is that none of the stamina classes have effective access the heals and destro staff abilities you mentioned.

waitwhat

Zarrakon wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Zarrakon wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Also I played a magic sorc I thought sorcs were OP especially with getting hit with 8k curses in medium armor and instant dying from curses if I get close to 20%.It must be me no way they are this strong so I played my magsorc I haven't used since DB.5 lich 5 spinners Pirate skeleton and it was just stupid there strong to say otherwise is just not true there not Op we can agree on that but they are a head of the other magic classes this patch and even more so next patch when it comes to pve and pvp.If nothing changes when it comes to sorcs both magic and stam there no point playing anything else.

If you're doing purely PvP, can you please try exactly the same build on a magicka nightblade with dampen magic? Between cripple, funnel health, soul harvest, their execute and merciless resolve, you should be at least as effective, if not more.

@Zarrakon

I'd like to hear your suggestion for a stamina class that would be just as effective, besides the one-shot gankers everyone seems to hate.

Stamina characters have extremely powerful bow abilities (really, try ballista + poison injection + focused aim + charged bow attack from stealth against any magicka character). This is probably the kind of 'one-shot ganker' you don't want to hear about, though I'm not sure why. Magicka sorcerers (or any magicka build that isn't a nightblade afaik) can't put out anywhere near near the burst damage of stamina characters unless someone holds still and stands in destro ult (and FYI, if you have a bow on your backbar, roll dodge + sprint will get you away from eye of the storm faster than they can streak). Bursting people down before they can even react is one of your biggest strengths as a stamina character.

Stamina characters can also roll dodge, sprint and break free MUCH more reliably and more often (a typical PvE magicka build will be out of stamina in 2-3 roll dodges/break frees, and even taking cost reduction passives/adding some stamina won't extend this by much unless you start really sacrificing max magicka and shield strength).

1) The "stamina can roll dodge and break free more easily" argument needs to stop, as it is false. We can't roll dodge, break free, and sprint more easily because stamina is also the resource we use to cast our abilities. We have to pay closer attention to how and when we roll-dodge relative to the magicka classes, especially if we're running the stamina build you described.
2) I don't want to hear about some one-shot gank build because everyone shames the stamblades for running one, and I challenge you--and everyone else--to give me a high burst dps, non stamsorc, stamina build for PvP that doesn't rely on ganking.
3) Even if we were running the stam build you mentioned (and it would be lethal arrow/focused aim, poison injection, five light attacks, ballista + spam lethal arrow until they die), a) we would have to attack from stealth to gain the damage bonus (those abilities don't do the damage you think they do; only one is a execute and not as powerful as frags), b) the user doesn't have the protection that a sorc does running their rotation (no shields for stamblades, and shuffle isn't guaranteed damage mitigation, just a dodge chance), and c) the stam user there doesn't have the resource sustain that a magsorc or even stamsorc will have access to (e.g. Unholy Knowledge passive, Daedric Protection passive, Blood Magic passive, Endless Fury, Critical Surge, Capacitor passive, Dark Exhange, Energy Overload, and the Power Stone passive).

Hell, with so many cost reduction, increased recovery, and resource return passives and morphs, Sorcs shouldn't be doing burst damage at all, and should only be given DoTs.

The problem with sorcs right now is that they have it all: burst damage, sustained DPS, resource sustain, and defense. I'll leave off healing since it isn't as good as a magplar, though magsorc with a destro/resto would have healing as well. Something must be sacrificed, and the sorcs out there may wish to consider: would you rather give up shields, sustain, or damage. You're all very resistant to giving up shields. Fine. This update may also skip nuking your sustain like it did for everyone else. Fine. Just realize that if you don't give up something, eventually ZOS will come for your damage output. Whether it's four months from now, six months from now, or 2018, it will happen eventually. You may benefit from having a say in what you all wish to give up, else you wind up like us nightblades.

Goshua

In general, what are your thoughts on the class balance in this update?
pvp perspective
Stamina is still strong
nerf sorcs : p

How long did it take you to run out of resources? What did you do in this case?

Didn't notice anything particularly taxing or abnormal I never play to survive mind.
I was trying to ensure I used more than normal heavy staff attacks and well, there's not such thing as too much stamina and I've always ran out of that.

Did you change your character/build in any way because of these changes? How so?
Nothing significant.

Drdeath20

waitwhat wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Hi. You're wrong. PVP more.

Magplar is currently at the top due to heals and destro últ, to say nothing of javelin and flare.

Magsorc right behind with excellent defense (rotate shields with resource gain abilities and reduced ultimate cost.

Magicka rules PVP now. Complaints about stam in pvp are without merit, even if you get one-shot ganked.

Everyclass has heals and can use a destro staff.

@Drdeath20

Completely false.

1) Stamina classes do not have acces to the heals of templars.
2) Templars, currently, vastly outpace all other classes as healers.
3) Stamina classes don't have acces to the detro últ as a credible damage dealer.

See what you did there...not knowing anything about stam?

Since when is Stamina a class?

@Drdeath20

Since the time stamblades, stamDks, and stamplars have been around. So basically, forever.

The larger point here, once we're done mincing words, is that none of the stamina classes have effective access the heals and destro staff abilities you mentioned.

Dude who cares about stamina builds. Every player can switch their character from a stamina build to a magicka build with almost no effort but you cant change a class at all, well unless you want to level from 1-50 again and play the mind numbing story again. Sky shard hunting, levelling a horse, undaunted passives, grinding for armor, caudwells silver and gold etc...

Weps

I know, I know.
The PTS has just started and I can't even play in it so I can't test these (sarcastic quotes open)changes (sarcastic quotes close) .

But, just by reading the notes I have only one question that keeps buzzing in my head:
"Is that it?".

I mean, the step took for the Templar seems to aim in the right direction but then comes the Warden.
Less Major Mending uptime is good, sounds less like a, pardon the french, bitchslap to existing tanks and healers but then, of course, it's immediately compensated by gaining one of the best Ultimate regen in the game.

Where's the compensation for the other classes?
You took away every defining skill from the Templars with little to none help for them to face the incoming patch;
You basically erased the DKs from Cyrodil, still no compensation;
Nightblades, still close to extinction in PvE, slowly disappearing from PvP ( that could mean they're going away or they're ALL slowly turning into gankers and bombers );
Sorcs? You're joking right? Nothing again on the sorcs front? Again, make little fixes, don't come in 6 months with a patch that will eradicate the sorcs from existence because you finally listened to people complaining every now and then about them because you will *** everyone off again.
Please, learn from the screw-ups.

I don't know, there has been quite a big uproar in the community and you're still going cruise speed around the screams and requests, probably wearing black sunglasses and waving a middle finger up to masses.
Nice.

Merancapeman

I don't see how anyone can argue that Stamblades aren't perma-fked. The game's tagline from the beginning was that you weren't going to be pidgeon-holed into a class because everything was viable end-game. Tell that to stamblades who will never get an invite to vet trials.

Durham

waitwhat wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

clj94104 wrote: »

My general thoughts on class rebalance:

Stamina nightblade and stamina classes in general still have absolutely no chance to get into a serious end game trial for score. They just aren't viable.

PVE Tanks were really hurt by the DK major mending change for Igneous Shield. The buff is obviously gone immediately. This is a completely unnecessary change, even in PVP, when all the other changes that are happening this patch are taken into consideration.

Stamblade will be deadly in PVP tho... They will be hitting about 15% harder....

@Durham

Where in the patch notes are you getting that 15% figure?

25% direct damage -10% from physical damage nerf however .so in PVE you should hit harder since most of your class DPS is DD....... but and this is a big but which I did not test against until after this post ... 25% direct damage resistance applied and guess what you have a night blade nerf in PVP....

Xvorg

Vosital wrote: »

Devs, please, just step into PvP for a second and you will see nothing but Sorcs. Do you really think we want to play Elder Sorcs Online for 3 more months after Morrowind, and then hope that you do something about it in the patch after?

ZoS Logic:

alec.littlejohn_ESO

i think we can all agree that the real issue in sustain in damage with the current patch of homestead was the CP system, and thats all(majority of the player base). HOWEVER we also revived some dramatic changes to armor passives and some nerfs to specific classes.
Now for the rest of the report i want to try and keep both PvP and PvE in mind.

The changes to armor passives and some class nerfs are also going to affect Non-CP PvP and battlegrounds and a huge way. Not a huge player base plays on non-CP, so let me give you my thought on that real quick. Playing non cp is like playing a different game, you have to use different builds, and account for the lower damage and lower resource sustain. Its harder to sustain with non-CP, you cant just build full damage like you would in a CP campaign in most cases. NOW, nerfing the classes individually and nerfing all armor passive sustain, is going to hurt non CP in a huge way, which i believe to already have good balance in terms of sustain.

The fix to this should be to restore the armor passives and some class passives to there former glory.
As of now I just think the sustain nerfs were over kill, everything being hit all at ONE TIME, ONE PATCH.

Some other games i play do very minor nerfs or buffs, but more frequently, maybe once every month or every other month.
Where is ESO is doing maybe, 4 patches a year if im not mistaken? and these patches have HUGE changes, and its just very overwhelming on the community, they see huge changes and FREAK.

I like the idea of having 4 quarters, 4 BIG patches a year. But can we maybe get more frequent patches that do minor changes to damage, sustain, class balance, etc. once every other month?? this would help the game a lot by changing the cost and damage of specific abilities in small tweaks, putting it on live server, and making further adjustments in your future small patches if needed.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-78-notes
(i understand a lot of you dont play this game, or will understand whats going on in these patch notes, but this is the idea i had in mind with small changes. as you can see the are on patch notes 7.8, season 7 (year 7) and this is the 8th patch they have done this year. we can usually see up to 20 or more changes each year playing League of Legends.)


And one last thing, in the name of MY LORD FENG RUSH!!!!!!! please, for the love good GOD, try to completely rework the CP system. in a year or 2 from now (MAYBE LESS) we will have to see more changes to the CP system like the ones they did this patch....the cp system us old and outdated.

Drishtan

HOW Was SORC the only class completely untouched????? HOW????

@ZOS_GinaBruno

actosh

Guys relax. Wait for next monday.
There will be way more class balancing.

Edziu

actosh wrote: »

Guys relax. Wait for next monday.
There will be way more class balancing.

yeah, like in this week monday will be big balancig patch haha

overclocker303b14_ESO

In general, what are your thoughts on the class balance in this update?
I started playing again earlier this year. Since picking the game back up I have played almost every day and I am up to about 300 champ points now. I play a stamsorc and a magblade, primarily for dungeons, trials, and vMA. Long story short after testing them out myself on PTS I believe these changes will make the game significantly more difficult for me. If things stay the same I'm not sure I would purchase the expansion or play the game as much. I would rather see no balance changes made rather than have the ones on PTS right now go live.

How long did it take you to run out of resources?
Previously I could go for a couple of minutes. Now I last about 30 seconds.

What did you do in this case?
On my stamsorc, for example I would need to remove 1 DOT ability from my bar and add dark deal to my rotation. I would also need to take the weapon damage glyphs off my jewelry and use cost reduction glyphs instead.

Did you change your character/build in any way because of these changes? How so?
The changes I outlined above would help, but even then my DPS would go down by about 20% or so. That's on my stamsorc. The situation seems even worse on my magblade. Unless all the dungeon, trial and vMA bosses are losing 20% of their health and some of their abilities are getting nerfed as well, I worry that doing these activities is going to be significantly harder. I don't think they need to be any harder for 'average' players at this point, and suspect finding people to do them will also be more difficult since some people may get frustrated and just give up.