PTS Feedback Thread for Class Balance

Vosital

Battlegrounds in a nutshell:

Whoever has more Sorcs win.

MrGorv

About Sorcs:
ZOS, tell me, how many months in a row we should try to make you understand that Dark Exchange cost must be charged if it's interrupted successfully? Don't wanna do that? OK, make so it won't restore half of the caster's health so they can't just stand there and cast it over and over! This ability has 'counterplay' you say. But, you know, constantly wasting resources (which we now don't have) on bashing the enemy instead of anything else is not counterplay.

UPD: A bit of maths from PTS. Now you've made DK stamina restore from Helping Hnads a flat value. One cast of Igneous Shield costs you near 4k magicka, gives you like an 8k shield on stamina build and restores 990 stamina. Dark Deal costs 3.2k. And it heals you for 8k and restores nearly 5k stamina. 5000 is five times more than 990. Does anyone really think that 1 sec cast time justifies that?

@ZOS_GinaBruno I'm not sure this can be called class balance. This is class domination.

Lapin_Logic

NIGHTBLADE TANK. It is not even viable anymore, the changes to siphoning strikes leave the magicka based nightblade sap tank with no way to gain stamina.

PVE on live i use funnel health regularly single target or sap in AOE trash to proc the small chance for stamina gain, i then suppliment this with dropping block when safe to light attack, this allows me to bring utility heal over time to my group, keep my own buffs up and sustain my stamina.

From a TANK perspective, the change now means my ONLY choice is to invest more into stamina & repeatedly drop block to either spam siphoning strikes light attacks (increasing the chances to get stunned/CC) or just charge up heavy attacks (not easy in a big trash pull when the nightblade had no holding CC i.e.tallons. also i now have to choose stamina or magicka return. when i need magicka to constantly heal (because nightblade had no class burst heal) and i need stamina to block because ice staff tanking does not offer the resistances or block efficiency of 1h and shield.

if SAP tank does not work then i am left with stamina tank, that means i give NO group utility, (already forced to run swarm mothers helm for a chains/CC) and MUST run PVP to unlock VIGOR as a half decent heal.

NB needs sap to function as it currently does on the live server as NB on the PTS is now the worst TANK class. sorc can shield stack or dark deal stamina back. DK has its ignious shields and ultimates way of gaining stamina. Templar can have other people synergise spears & repentance corpses for stamina and the Warden can have the BULL NETCH poot stamina directly into your pool.

Give NB its old siphoning attacks back or at least 1 morph that works as it does on live. or a new better way for a tank to gain stamina. the new pts morphs are great for DPS but not for TANKS.

there is not an armor set i can change to make it work because the whole skill does not exsist any more.

grim_tactics

I take it all the whiners aren't Sorcs? Am I correct that everyone upset doesn't play as a Sorc?

Xsorus

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Atleast sorcs can still run a damage set. As well as an overpowered damage reduction set that was hardly changed. Also the heals for stamina classes were just increased by 30% along with the cost reduction nerfs making vigor and one dodge roll with a block take up an entire stamina pool. A second dodge roll and we are completely unable to CC break. Let alone this is where our sprint and damage come from as well we will basically be on CC away from death every time.

Also, I don't see the section where sorcs shields got increased? Therefore you still have your main defence at roughly the same cost (minus champion changes) while stamina survivability, which was already lackluster, was made even harder. Espeically for classes like stam dk that relied on things such as major mending, or even night blade that relied on things like dodge roll and sneak.

Same cost? You crazy? Sorcs lost 16% cost reduction on shields from CP and another 5% from Light Armor passives. Shields on PTS cost over 3.5k for Hardened Ward, 4.5k for Harness and 4.5k for Healing Ward. Harness used to refund basically the whole cost of casting Hardened and Harness. With 42k magicka (and the magicka return scales with your max magicka) I have a return of 1.2k per magic damage 3 times. That's 3.6k "effective cost reduction". Your 3 shields will cost a little less than 1/3 of your magicka pool to cast. That's the most expensive defense out of any class considering they have to be actively reapplied every 6 seconds. With 2k recovery, you get 6k magicka back in 6 seconds. The return from Harness gives another 3.6k. We have 9.6k magicka restored over 6 seconds, which is still less than what the shields cost (12k with the cost reduction passives in Light Armor and Sorc passives). And that's in a situation where your shields last their full duration (aka you aren't taking any damage). Sorcs are suffering from these cost reduction changes a lot, arguably more than the other classes.

Umm....Shields don't cost that on PTS either

Hardened Ward with 5/1/1 and ZERO cost reduction on any of my gear is 2879 Cost, Harnessed is 3764 Cost. (Healing Ward is the same)

So either you didn't spec your guy or you're giving the wrong numbers on purpose.

olsborg

Magicka, specificly shieldstacking/spamming dont get touched in this patch, but you nerf blessed cp and boost befoul cp, and increase the cost of all stamina abilites and a whopping 30% cost increase to vigor. Flamestaff magicka builds with dmg shields (aka magsorcs) gonna have some fun this patch again...

olsborg

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Zenimax..... Please, for the love of.. Stendarr, please... Do something about the Heavy Attacks. I can't even imagining the new CP + Elegant + The other new set...

How much damage do you want on dem heavy attacks? >.<

Yes, and the stamreturn on heavy atks needs to get nerfed when in full heavy armor. Also, please stop pigeonholing stamblades into ganking, give them minor mending at the very least, the healing for a stamblade is abyssmal.

Catches_the_Sun

I was disheartened yesterday when the patch notes came out. Then I came to this thread, and I'm even more disheartened. Why? Because it's evident that the vast majority of the feedback comments are coming from a PvP balance perspective. Seriously, Zenimax, I wish you'd make some sort of commitment. If you're going to balance this game from the perspective of PvP, at least make it worth playing.

Khivas_Carrick

@ZOS_GinaBruno, sincerely I ask this, but who the hell do you guys hire to test these things out? Who do you talk to when thinking about things that pertain to this game's combat?

Xsorus

I'll explain the issue best I can right now.

You basically removed what made DragonKnights/Templar being able to compete in PvP

And Left Sorcs alone, I can get pretty much the same cost Reduction I have right now on Live on PTS by simply swapping my DPS set over to Seducer..Now you might say "But you're giving up DPS?" Only i'm not...

Because They bloody added a second CP node that lets you increase damage by another 25%...They also reduced by Hardy and Elemental by 10% as well...So my damage is going to go up..My Sustain is going to be virtually the same as well....and now DK's/Templars don't have Major Mending so they're automatically weaker as well...They'll also do less damage to me because They're getting getting Destroyed Stamina wise and will run out quicker.

Twohothardware

grim_tactics wrote: »

I take it all the whiners aren't Sorcs? Am I correct that everyone upset doesn't play as a Sorc?

I play a Sorc and 4 other classes. I want to be able to play on those other classes and not be losing DPS, survivability, and sustainability in large chunks while doing it.

Neoauspex

grim_tactics wrote: »

I take it all the whiners aren't Sorcs? Am I correct that everyone upset doesn't play as a Sorc?

We all play Sorcs, now obviously. I'm upset because the 2x event ended right when the patch notes came out.

davey1107

My concern is that the balance changes have completely ignored the evolving superiority of magic builds, especially in pve. I have vets of all class/resource combos, and it's ridiculous how superior magic is in end game pve. Mag Sorcs have become far more powerful than stamblades, while somehow retaining the tankiness of a stamplar. And my magplar performs through the roof compared to most other classes.

I've really wanted to bring my stamblade into vmsa and trials to mix things up...but these notes make me feel that is as unfeasible as ever.

@Alcast - I know you've been advocating for better stamina character performance. Have you done any write ups or do you have any insight on what these PTS changes will mean for stam builds, and if they'll be more competitive?

Twohothardware

davey1107 wrote: »

My concern is that the balance changes have completely ignored the evolving superiority of magic builds, especially in pve. I have vets of all class/resource combos, and it's ridiculous how superior magic is in end game pve. Mag Sorcs have become far more powerful than stamblades, while somehow retaining the tankiness of a stamplar. And my magplar performs through the roof compared to most other classes.

I've really wanted to bring my stamblade into vmsa and trials to mix things up...but these notes make me feel that is as unfeasible as ever.

@Alcast - I know you've been advocating for better stamina character performance. Have you done any write ups or do you have any insight on what these PTS changes will mean for stam builds, and if they'll be more competitive?

Nothing they have done so far is in any way addressing the large disparity between Stamina and Magicka builds in PvE right now and if anything these changes look to make the divide even greater because healing and sustaining are both harder on Stamina classes and on top of that they're directly increasing the cost of Stamina abilities across the board. All Stamina abilities will now cost 5% more, there were individual increases to the cost of Vigor, bow, and duel wield abilities, and blocking received a pretty big hit as well.

ZoS seems pretty oblivious to what is actually going on in this game most likely because their developers don't actually play things like Trials, Vet Maelstrom, or even PvP.

Ivan04

You really need to reconsider the major mending change with Dragonknight's Ingeous Shield. The problem with Templars and having increased healing done is that they can not only heal themselves but also others, and Templar's skills basically are so powerful they overheal whatever you do. DK's only use Major Mending to heal themselves and tank in pve or pvp. Stam DKs basically don't really have a reliable burst heal. Tanking (even without considering block change) took a huge hit for no reason. DKs need to have Major Mending last for at least 4 seconds.

Vapirko

WTF are people honestly complaining about Mag Sorcs on this thread? Look, the whole damn problem right now, is that all of these changes have been made due to the overwhelming number of complaint thread from noobs who step into True Flame or whatever and get absolutely wrecked by a DK. But guess what! Against an equally or higher skilled NB or Sorc, a DK has just as much of a chance of getting rekt as anyone else. I do pretty well as a Stam DK in True Flame and Azuras, usually 4-1 to 10-1 kill to death ratio (not amazing I know, but decent), and Im frequently outmatched by good NBs and Sorcs and other Dks. The infuriating bit about all this is that these changes are being made because of the outcry from players who didnt want to take the time to learn their class and gear, and then practice a bit. When I first stepped into PvP like 4 months ago, I was getting rekt as a stam DK even with black rose and draugr, it takes time to get good. The game isnt that badly out of balance right now and had ZOS decided to actually learn what their game needed and listen to the big streamers instead of the whiners in these forums we would be doing ok. FACT: stam classes especially stam dk are at the bottom of the DPS rung in PvE and now its only going to get worse. FACT: stam build especially stam DK are not OP in True Flame, except relating to CP and some cancer sets. I filled my kill DK quota faster than any other kill list. And the on things I cannot understand is why in the hell we need to spell this out for ZOS.

WhiteMage

...

soll

official feedback, nice.

OK, ruining my class to useless garbage and destroying uniq parts of every other class (but sorcs). Can anyone explain why one would even try to run templar healer next patch? Or is it going to be option for poor people who can't get warden? Buy warden ftw, I guess. Extremely disappointed with class changes.

Current patch sustain was too much, maybe only mag sorcs suffered a bit. I was positive with cp changes, but ZOS just doomed EVERY aspect of sustain, even worm cult set, omg! And this is simply not right. Atm it's impossible to imagine any future builds at all.
Speaking about no-cp Azura, there is totally different and with all this poisons you are usually out of resources, and now, with all this changes with armor passives, other skills, etc I can hardly imagine how it's going to be. Well, at least no more 60% cost poisons any more. But personally I don't care – if they will bring this crap patch notes to live I will not play this game ffs.

changes in my builds? yes, delete bottom for my main char magplar. Thanks.

CycloneMustard

My general thoughts on the class balance, Hm, you're doing it wrong.

Here's how I see the game, We have the base game, which is everything underneath the CP system, we can call it the cake. Then we have the CP system, the icing on the cake and this icing tastes terrible.

You are changing the base game in order to try and fix the problem that the CP system bought in. This will never work and will ultimately ruin the base game and the CP system at the same time.

The flat percentage resource gain in the SKILL TREES, whether it be abilities or passives works, maybe the numbers can be tuned but it works, NON-CP pvp shows this. It's the flat percentage increases within the champion system which breaks things and makes sustain too easy.

The CP system shouldn't be a stat amplifier as it currently is. The CP system should be a system to make your character unique. A system that rewards YOU for playing your character in a certain way, a system that doesn't affect any stats on your character but rather offers solo synergies for playing your character a certain way. The same way lava whip grants a follow up attack on off balance enemies, just give something to make people think about what they are doing and building instead of maxed out sustain and damage. Fengrush has a really great vision for this type of thing and he mentioned it in his patch notes review.

You're gutting the game where it doesnt need to be gutted. The classes shouldnt use the same resources at the same rate, thats not balance, that is diluting the variety in the game. Classes need to be different and have different advantages but the CP system is so overpowered it's making everything the same, the base game is good, just revamp the cp system and you will only ever have to balance the base game every few patches. Give us a cp system to compliment our characters, not a CP system which dictates how we play our characters.

BohnT

I tested stamsorc on pets, never played one on live.
I had not a single situation in which I run out of resources for more than 1 second in duels, HoF or battlegrounds.
I played with 2 selenes, 5 draugr hulk and 5
Fury so I had no regen on me but I could simply use dark deal once or twice a d would be almost at full live and with enough resources to keep the fight going.

My Stamnb on the other side with 3 regen enchantments 5pc twice fanged serpent and 5pc bone pirate couldn't sustain for more than 40 seconds in an intense battle + it had much lower damage compared to the stamsorc

Sorc is so op with these changes a friend of mine went to pts with a mag sorc and he said that it was so easy to kill ppl before but now every non sorc he sees is just "ap running around" he died once in 6 battleground matches and that was because he had lag spikes apart from that he could face tank 3 ppl and they run out of resources he didn't have any problems keeping the shields up.

Sorc was op in homestead but now it is just god like every other class except for Warden was nerfed in terms of survivability and regen but cp and abilities for sorcs were left untouched. Shields are already better than heals and now heals are reduced by 10% across the board.

actosh

Siphoning and its morphs should have stayed the same as they have been. Maybe rework leeching to restore 1,5k health, 800stam/800 mag and keep the dmg reduction.

NB is allready far behind in dps compared to other classes and to nerf a class defining skill that hard, that would have helped to close the dps gap was not a smart decision.

@ZOS_RichLambert
@Wrobel

The same goes for nb´s shades, that ability has so much potential.

getemshauna

Make Nb's shades (morph what gives two of them) fully viable double bar pet with unique ability. We could have then a set which could work with us, finally.

technohic

I personally think the CP nerf would have been enough. I was doing some dummy testing just on my resources and I seemed fine after a race change(ESO: Elves Superior Online) using funny money on the PTS, but then I realized that it was running about even out in PvE land with my CP as I was within the no CP PVP campaigns on live that I was build for. I ran out of time but I'm thinking even after going to a racial with more regen built in to try to keep pace with my non CP experience prior; I still get to feel the bat up the arse a 2nd time once I drop my CP.

So my feedback:

Nerfing abilities and classes along with CP is too much. CP alone would have been plenty.

Medium and light armor should not have been nerfed, or if they are; their survivability needed to be buffed. I could live with the nerf to heavy personally even though I run it; but the reason I run it is the other armors could get you killed a lot easier. By nerfing all 3, you made it a wash. By then also nerfing healing for both stam and magicka, you basically make it a shield meta once again, and that will favor a particular class whos regen ability was untouched outside of a .2 second animation cool down basically. If you do not have access to the shields, heavy armor is still going to be a better choice IMO. That or go ranged.

Also; it seems in an attempt o get people to have to build toward resource management; you may cause the opposite. When looking at my builds, with lesser returns on building for resource management, an option I see is to just forget about it completely. I could build for damage and use heavy attacks with procs and just save the resources for burst or utility. This is going to make for uninteresting play and counter play and it will favor classes with more buffs and utility but in general water down the trademark abilities.

Racial passives will need to be looked at again in this new meta. As I mentioned before; I went to wood elf and high elf for my stam and magicka characters for the extra regen looking to get more resource management. Now, if I go the other route where I would rely on heavy attacks, it likely would be the same although breton could become an option as I basically would still look to maximize magicka or stam. I guess my point here is that I feel racials are taking far too much of an important role even prior and this is going to make people feel like any change you make is a cash grab for respecs in the crown store

Stamden

What they need to do to Shields:

-Remove Bastion CP
-Remove Pirate Skeleton
-Increase cost for consecutive shield casts
-Remove the ability to stack Harness + other shields
-Reduce the magika received from Harness
-Add debuffs that reduce the effectiveness of shields

Honestly, the fact that shields can't be critted causes so much problems though. It just allows Sorcs to go full offense while every other class has to spec for impen. That just makes the damage Sorcs can do that much more ridiculous.

John_1999

Buff Templar LOL, everyone of you was crying in forums about nerfing Templars.
They got nerfed patch after patch after patch, now that they are basicly almost usless in groups and solo paly PVP, you want them to be buffed. Its your all fault Templar got nerfed to death, its not zenimax fault.
They listen to you.

Izaki

Xsorus wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Atleast sorcs can still run a damage set. As well as an overpowered damage reduction set that was hardly changed. Also the heals for stamina classes were just increased by 30% along with the cost reduction nerfs making vigor and one dodge roll with a block take up an entire stamina pool. A second dodge roll and we are completely unable to CC break. Let alone this is where our sprint and damage come from as well we will basically be on CC away from death every time.

Also, I don't see the section where sorcs shields got increased? Therefore you still have your main defence at roughly the same cost (minus champion changes) while stamina survivability, which was already lackluster, was made even harder. Espeically for classes like stam dk that relied on things such as major mending, or even night blade that relied on things like dodge roll and sneak.

Same cost? You crazy? Sorcs lost 16% cost reduction on shields from CP and another 5% from Light Armor passives. Shields on PTS cost over 3.5k for Hardened Ward, 4.5k for Harness and 4.5k for Healing Ward. Harness used to refund basically the whole cost of casting Hardened and Harness. With 42k magicka (and the magicka return scales with your max magicka) I have a return of 1.2k per magic damage 3 times. That's 3.6k "effective cost reduction". Your 3 shields will cost a little less than 1/3 of your magicka pool to cast. That's the most expensive defense out of any class considering they have to be actively reapplied every 6 seconds. With 2k recovery, you get 6k magicka back in 6 seconds. The return from Harness gives another 3.6k. We have 9.6k magicka restored over 6 seconds, which is still less than what the shields cost (12k with the cost reduction passives in Light Armor and Sorc passives). And that's in a situation where your shields last their full duration (aka you aren't taking any damage). Sorcs are suffering from these cost reduction changes a lot, arguably more than the other classes.

Umm....Shields don't cost that on PTS either

Hardened Ward with 5/1/1 and ZERO cost reduction on any of my gear is 2879 Cost, Harnessed is 3764 Cost. (Healing Ward is the same)

So either you didn't spec your guy or you're giving the wrong numbers on purpose.

That's the base value of shields with max CP and no cost reduction passives. You have Light Armor cost reduction passives and most likely the Sorc cost reduction passive, which gives you in total 15% cost reduction. That alone brings the base cost close to the values you described. Also you're a Breton.
The base cost of shields are: 3510 Hardened, 4590 Harness, 4590 Healing.
Lets take Hardened: 3510 x 0.85 = 2983.5 that's with just the Sorc passive and the Light Armor passive. Lets check Breton: 3510 x 0.82 = 2878.2

So you're a Breton and you have all the Cost Reduction passives. No wonder you're not getting the same numbers as me. I was talking about the base cost of shields being high.

Izaki

Neighbor wrote: »

What they need to do to Shields:

-Remove Bastion CP
-Remove Pirate Skeleton
-Increase cost for consecutive shield casts
-Remove the ability to stack Harness + other shields
-Reduce the magika received from Harness
-Add debuffs that reduce the effectiveness of shields

Honestly, the fact that shields can't be critted causes so much problems though. It just allows Sorcs to go full offense while every other class has to spec for impen. That just makes the damage Sorcs can do that much more ridiculous.

Sorcs wear impen too. At least all the good ones.

If you remove all of the above why don't you remove shields all together? They will be a worthless form of defense. So then Sorcs might actually receive some nice survivability mechanics aside from shields. Then all of you guys are going to keep whining because you'll find another reason to do it. Any good player knows damn well that shields on Sorcs aren't a problem to rip through. Like literally, EVERY good or decent player knows that. Because it is easy and it is logical. So that does tell me something about your level of playing

BohnT

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Atleast sorcs can still run a damage set. As well as an overpowered damage reduction set that was hardly changed. Also the heals for stamina classes were just increased by 30% along with the cost reduction nerfs making vigor and one dodge roll with a block take up an entire stamina pool. A second dodge roll and we are completely unable to CC break. Let alone this is where our sprint and damage come from as well we will basically be on CC away from death every time.

Also, I don't see the section where sorcs shields got increased? Therefore you still have your main defence at roughly the same cost (minus champion changes) while stamina survivability, which was already lackluster, was made even harder. Espeically for classes like stam dk that relied on things such as major mending, or even night blade that relied on things like dodge roll and sneak.

Same cost? You crazy? Sorcs lost 16% cost reduction on shields from CP and another 5% from Light Armor passives. Shields on PTS cost over 3.5k for Hardened Ward, 4.5k for Harness and 4.5k for Healing Ward. Harness used to refund basically the whole cost of casting Hardened and Harness. With 42k magicka (and the magicka return scales with your max magicka) I have a return of 1.2k per magic damage 3 times. That's 3.6k "effective cost reduction". Your 3 shields will cost a little less than 1/3 of your magicka pool to cast. That's the most expensive defense out of any class considering they have to be actively reapplied every 6 seconds. With 2k recovery, you get 6k magicka back in 6 seconds. The return from Harness gives another 3.6k. We have 9.6k magicka restored over 6 seconds, which is still less than what the shields cost (12k with the cost reduction passives in Light Armor and Sorc passives). And that's in a situation where your shields last their full duration (aka you aren't taking any damage). Sorcs are suffering from these cost reduction changes a lot, arguably more than the other classes.

Umm....Shields don't cost that on PTS either

Hardened Ward with 5/1/1 and ZERO cost reduction on any of my gear is 2879 Cost, Harnessed is 3764 Cost. (Healing Ward is the same)

So either you didn't spec your guy or you're giving the wrong numbers on purpose.

That's the base value of shields with max CP and no cost reduction passives. You have Light Armor cost reduction passives and most likely the Sorc cost reduction passive, which gives you in total 15% cost reduction. That alone brings the base cost close to the values you described. Also you're a Breton.
The base cost of shields are: 3510 Hardened, 4590 Harness, 4590 Healing.
Lets take Hardened: 3510 x 0.85 = 2983.5 that's with just the Sorc passive and the Light Armor passive. Lets check Breton: 3510 x 0.82 = 2878.2

So you're a Breton and you have all the Cost Reduction passives. No wonder you're not getting the same numbers as me. I was talking about the base cost of shields being high.

Stop this bullsh** racial passives don't work on the pts right now. You just want to state that sorcs are crap so that ZoS doesn't nerf them even though they are already the strongest class for both Stam and mag dps and for pvp.
Sorcs deserve to be crap for one patch so that anyone who mains a sorc realises who good they were and stop this stupid defence for sorcs that they are not viable

Bashev

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

What they need to do to Shields:

-Remove Bastion CP
-Remove Pirate Skeleton
-Increase cost for consecutive shield casts
-Remove the ability to stack Harness + other shields
-Reduce the magika received from Harness
-Add debuffs that reduce the effectiveness of shields

Honestly, the fact that shields can't be critted causes so much problems though. It just allows Sorcs to go full offense while every other class has to spec for impen. That just makes the damage Sorcs can do that much more ridiculous.

Sorcs wear impen too. At least all the good ones.

If you remove all of the above why don't you remove shields all together? They will be a worthless form of defense. So then Sorcs might actually receive some nice survivability mechanics aside from shields. Then all of you guys are going to keep whining because you'll find another reason to do it. Any good player knows damn well that shields on Sorcs aren't a problem to rip through. Like literally, EVERY good or decent player knows that. Because it is easy and it is logical. So that does tell me something about your level of playing

Any good player knows that if a sorc plays defensively and stack 3 shields better leave him alone.

Izaki

BohnT wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

About the Sorcerer :

It's funny to see how much people complain about sorc not getting nerf in the class skill, in factn they are enough nerf, LOG ON ON PTS to try it.

Why sorc are not nerfed in class skills :

Mobility :

Streak costing 21% ( 16% less from cp - 5% less from light armor) more : now just think that skill have a 50% cost increase each time you cast it within 4s => Mobility take serious nerf.

Shields :

It cost about 11k (= 30% of max pool) magicka after sorc sustain passive to use the 3 shields, and when you are it 3 times, harness give you magicka back so it's become a 7.7k cost for stacking all your shield.

Now think theze shields only last 6s and you need to recast it forever. Before harness magicka gave you nearly enough magicka to cast a hardened + a harness. Now, it's far from that.

Damage :

Sorc is already running a damage set and a sustain set. With the spamable defense sorc have, they are very affected by recovery and magicka cost increase, sorcs will reduce their damage or they will not be able to sustain streak and no free shieldstack.

Sustain :

Sorc only have dark deal for sustain, but casting a more expensive stamina skill, when you have a dodge roll and break free cps seperate make this skill extremely hard to use, sorc will run OOS faster and a no stamina sorc is a dead sorc.

Conclusion :

Even if sorc didn't receive direct class nerfs, they are affected a lot, and more than other, because sorc is made for spaming shield and streak and they are now punished for do it.


Before speaking, go to the PTS and try it

Atleast sorcs can still run a damage set. As well as an overpowered damage reduction set that was hardly changed. Also the heals for stamina classes were just increased by 30% along with the cost reduction nerfs making vigor and one dodge roll with a block take up an entire stamina pool. A second dodge roll and we are completely unable to CC break. Let alone this is where our sprint and damage come from as well we will basically be on CC away from death every time.

Also, I don't see the section where sorcs shields got increased? Therefore you still have your main defence at roughly the same cost (minus champion changes) while stamina survivability, which was already lackluster, was made even harder. Espeically for classes like stam dk that relied on things such as major mending, or even night blade that relied on things like dodge roll and sneak.

Same cost? You crazy? Sorcs lost 16% cost reduction on shields from CP and another 5% from Light Armor passives. Shields on PTS cost over 3.5k for Hardened Ward, 4.5k for Harness and 4.5k for Healing Ward. Harness used to refund basically the whole cost of casting Hardened and Harness. With 42k magicka (and the magicka return scales with your max magicka) I have a return of 1.2k per magic damage 3 times. That's 3.6k "effective cost reduction". Your 3 shields will cost a little less than 1/3 of your magicka pool to cast. That's the most expensive defense out of any class considering they have to be actively reapplied every 6 seconds. With 2k recovery, you get 6k magicka back in 6 seconds. The return from Harness gives another 3.6k. We have 9.6k magicka restored over 6 seconds, which is still less than what the shields cost (12k with the cost reduction passives in Light Armor and Sorc passives). And that's in a situation where your shields last their full duration (aka you aren't taking any damage). Sorcs are suffering from these cost reduction changes a lot, arguably more than the other classes.

Umm....Shields don't cost that on PTS either

Hardened Ward with 5/1/1 and ZERO cost reduction on any of my gear is 2879 Cost, Harnessed is 3764 Cost. (Healing Ward is the same)

So either you didn't spec your guy or you're giving the wrong numbers on purpose.

That's the base value of shields with max CP and no cost reduction passives. You have Light Armor cost reduction passives and most likely the Sorc cost reduction passive, which gives you in total 15% cost reduction. That alone brings the base cost close to the values you described. Also you're a Breton.
The base cost of shields are: 3510 Hardened, 4590 Harness, 4590 Healing.
Lets take Hardened: 3510 x 0.85 = 2983.5 that's with just the Sorc passive and the Light Armor passive. Lets check Breton: 3510 x 0.82 = 2878.2

So you're a Breton and you have all the Cost Reduction passives. No wonder you're not getting the same numbers as me. I was talking about the base cost of shields being high.

Stop this bullsh** racial passives don't work on the pts right now. You just want to state that sorcs are crap so that ZoS doesn't nerf them even though they are already the strongest class for both Stam and mag dps and for pvp.
Sorcs deserve to be crap for one patch so that anyone who mains a sorc realises who good they were and stop this stupid defence for sorcs that they are not viable

Aha then how do you explain the 3% difference in cost of shields? Unless shields magically received a 3% cost reduction, there's absolutely nothing that explains this 3% difference aside from race.
I never stated Sorcs were crap, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said they weren't viable. I was saying that they are getting severely hit by the patch too, just like all the other classes, and just because there aren't any changes to Dark Exchange, or the Sorc passives, doesn't mean they aren't going to take as much of a sustain hit as other classes. If you think even a little bit you'll see that magicka Sorcs were sustaining solely through recovery and cost reduction. Stamina Sorcs were sustaining through cost reduction, Constitution (which got a 45% nerf), heavy attacks and Dark Deal, I agree that Dark Deal is OP, and a simple cost increase to 4590 would fix the problem straight away, but I doubt that without cost reduction and consistution you're going to have the same infinite sustain as you can achieve on live. In fact, I'm pretty sure it just won't be possible to rely solely on Dark Deal to sustain, because you just won't be able to Dark Deal as much as now, and all skills are gonna cost at least 16% more. Not to mention the Redguard passive change.
Remember DB? Yeah, Sorcs were beyond crap that patch without any good sets to actually support them. What has changed since then? Destro buffs and new sets. Nothing in the Sorc class has changed since the patch where they were just plain bad in both PvE (Overload no longer viable) and PvP (just bad). The only things that have changed are non-class related things, that helped Sorcs as much as other classes. So who's really to blame here? The class or the sets or the external skill lines? Just like the class itself hasn't changed since DB, but other external things brought it to the high levels where it is now, now nothing changed either and all the external things that are happening are going to drag the sorc down.