PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

Spearblade · January 2017

Lord_Hev wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The other unneeded buffs are more then enough for the poooor Stamplars that have always been the only balanced Stam Class(use to be OP as **** before ZOS buttered up Stam Sorcs as their new favorite child..)

???

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Qaevir Av Morilye | AD/EP Magic Sorcerer (Former Emperor of Thornblade, Chillrend, & Haderus)
Qaevir's Champion | AD Magic Dragonknight (The Last Emperor of Thornblade)
Qaevir Av Molag | EP Magic Dragonknight (Former Emperor of Haderus)
Qaevir's Unbound Minion | DC Magic Dragonknight

Qaevir Av Moriłye | AD Magic Templar

I know reading can be very difficult these days.

I have no idea how you could even possibly ascertain the idea that Stamplar is balanced by playing a Magplar.

I can ascertain it through actual combat with them. Something people don't do these days. You don't gain objective insight by just playing as something, you also need to fight it.

All that needs to be done, is analysis of skills and functions, and how they translate to open-world effectiveness.

A stamplar has an efficient extended ritual that can be sustained through a free-to-cast rune focus augmenting enough magic sustain for liberal usage. They have spike damage through their sustained biting jabs DPS through burning light that all scales with weapon damage, meaning like with all things stamina, damage is mind-numblingly easy, a non-min-maxed Stam build can dent people's health simply because.

So we have a Stam class that can have 100% uptime on Major Mending.(just like Magplar) but better then Magplar, they have constant over-powered HOTs(5k+ Vigor ticks on a min-maxed heavy armor build, 3k+ easy on medium armor builds) in addition to free burst heals through rally that can be boosted conveniently by having extended ritual or their 20 second rune focus buff(8 seconds if they have to venture off it which can be re-applied anywhere for no cost) all the while having major evasion layered on top of all these innate defenses. The liberal usage of extended ritual allows for very forgiving play where every other Stam build has to be mindful of incoming debuffs, poisions, and lingering DOTs.

The last thing they need is another toy robbed from Magplars that can pretty much only kill things atm with Radiant Destruction. We can argue the other buffs the , oh so un-loved Stamplar community needs all day.... but crescent sweep definitely was not one of them under any circumstance.

Don't just take my word for it though....

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

These changes on paper are awesome. I will likely still use dawnbreaker.

I wonder why. Oh, it's because Stamplars of all the oh sooo pooor underwhelming game-play they suffer from.... they never needed an ult burst. Like all Stam builds, they have DBoS. For what reason is Crescent Sweep -objectively- needed for Stamplars to benefit from when Magic Templars have zero burst outside of gimmick Dark Flare > Javelin > Radiant Destruction combos? Like every other magic class the only powerful burst ult they have is meteor. But at least Crescent Sweep(underwhelming as it was) could still serve as an option for Magplars to use due to it's very efficient ult cost.

This is absolutely absurd. The fact that you're QQ'ing about Crescent Sweep is hilarious to me. Take it back. Status quo, it's not worth using anyways, even for magicka.

I have a magicka AND stamina templar. Magicka is faaaaaar superior.

While stamina does have access to Major Mending thru Extended Ritual, that's all it really is. On a magplar, those heals ticks are actually decent.

Channeled Focus is amazing for magicka sustain for magplar. It's often worth trading mobility on a magplar to stand on that thing. Stamplars...not so much.

Vigor, while inarguably good, is nowhere near as nice as the kit magplars have. Healing Ward, BoL/HtD, Rapid Regen/Mutagen, Harness Magicka...cry me a river. Also, magplars can also use Shuffle to great effect, FYI. Major Evasion doesn't change, regardless of armor type. Only snare immunity/duration is affected.

Puncturing Sweeps > Biting Jabs. Fact. And even then, it's not the easiest ability to actually hit people with. So that takes you to Wrecking/Dizzying Blow (cast time, and again, often not easy to land), and another channel in the form of Flurry, that requires your target to stay in range.

Dark Flare is awesome if you land it. ZOS should admittedly increase the speed of that ability though too. Major Defile and Empower and big damage spike are $.

You have a good dot in the form of Reflective Light.

Jesus Beam will still be very strong, and will remain the best ranged execute in the game.

Argh, just ridiculous. Magplar is far superior to Stamplar (and thus NOT balanced), and the fact that we're even having this conversation is laughable. I pretty much play my Stamplar just for "RP" reasons. I like the Paladin feel vs the Cleric feel.

NBrookus · January 2017

Back when I had a stamplar, it was annoying that I basically had to play with no ultimate until I killed about 20,000 zombies to get Dawnbreaker. Of course now we have weapon ultimate stamplars can use, but that may be some of the reasoning behind giving templars a stamina class ultimate they can access much earlier.

And I have a hunch metrics will show Crescent and Empowering are both very underutilized.

Dagoth_Rac · January 2017

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Solariken Will crescent sweep proc burning light? I was under the impression it wouldn't proc off physical damage. Or does it proc off any damage but only scales with magic?

Could be wrong on both counts, but I thought I heard someone complain about this.

Any Aedric Spear ability can proc it.

And it has scaled off the higher of either Physical/Spell damage for a long time.

I think they changed it to scale off wep and spell damage in the dark brotherhood patch, if I recall correctly. But the damage dealt is still magic damage. Don't know that it matters since it scales off of weapon or spell, just weird.

If your weapon damage/stamina is higher, it does physical damage. If your spell damage/magicka is higher, it does magic damage.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO · January 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

You should increase the attack speed of Biting Jabs by 10% to make their PVE DPS viable.

Stamplar has a host of issues in PVE - this IMO is not one of them.

Inability to proc burning light off anything but jabs (we now have Crescent which is ok), no internal class DOT that actually has scaling damage and 2 entire trees that do not offer one modicum of DPS is what cripples Stamplar in PVE.

Templar passive need some work as a whole. I play a healer but I notice how awful StamPlar DPS is in groups. In PVP they always run two hand and their DPS in PVP is solely due to the two hand line.

Stam Temps needed love indeed. But the consequence of the proposed changes is that Temp Tanks, MagDPS, and Healers are having stuff taken away from them. I love being a healer but I'm sick of having no reliable tool for escape. No tool to crows control an enemy on top of me.

itscompton · January 2017

tamrielwinner wrote: »

i was damage testing radiant destruction with my templar 561+ friend who runs full yellow damage gear(no sustain sets), food up, and entropy. i cannot agree with a 21% damage nerf on this ability. i wasn't seeing offending damage enough on it.

in our best attempts to produce any sort of insane damage(10k+), she had to start the beam when i had around 15% hp or less, which should be normal for an execute.

That's the true issue with RO, none of the complainers really use it in solo/small group play and don't understand that it's DPS is already ridiculously low unless the target is at less that 10-15% health. People get hit with it in PvP for two ticks when they have 6000 health left and the first tick does a reasonable/underpowered 3000k damage but the tick that kills them overkills for 12k when they have 3K health and suddenly they're pissed because the death recap shows 15K damage in 2 seconds. Even with 35K max magic and 4k spell damage when I run solo (which is almost always) casting RO on anyone with more than 15% health is a total waste of magica since the ticks of damage are so low 90% of builds can outheal the DPS.

hedna123b14_ESO · January 2017

danno8 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the really great feedback in this thread. We have a number of updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Biting Jabs – Will now be undodgeable like the base ability.

Biting Jabs – Fixed an issue where the cost per level wasn’t set correctly. (overall cost reduction of approximately 20%)

Radial Sweep (and morphs) – Initial hit of damage is now undodgeable (it is an AOE after all)

Crescent Sweep – This morph now does physical damage instead of magicka

Piercing Javelin (and morphs) – Increased the speed of the projectile by 40%

Binding Javelin – Reduced the stamina cost by 20%. (to match other stam abilities)

Backlash (and morphs) – Reduced the amount of damage needed to reach the cap and increased the percentage of damage released. It should be much easier for a solo player who focuses damage on a target to use now.

Some very good PvP changes in here, but Stamplar seems as useless as ever in endgame PvE. Biting Jabs cost reduction will help with sustain, but even with infinite stamina, Stamplar just do not do enough DPS for endgame. Especially with most boss mechanics being punishing on melee. A melee build better bring something special to endgame PvE and Stamplar do not.

The Backlash change is not clear to me. Is the damage cap on explosion being lowered? For example, depending on max stam, I think damage cap is around 23k for Power of the Light. Will that be going down to 15k or something? Or will damage cap stay at 23k but it will simply be easier to have final explosion actually do 23k damage? Have you given any thought to allowing Backlash to truly crit? Right now, Backlash crits always hit up against the damage cap and essentially do the exact same damage as a non-crit. Is that intended? It really hurts the skill in endgame PvE. The tooltip looks sexy but the inability to crit makes it inferior to skills that look worse on tooltips but can surpass Backlash when you realize those other skills will be critting 80%+ of the time.

+1 for critting backlash

+1 +1

Skill has a huge glowing tower of light or spirally thing(Power of the light) as a telegraph, so you have 6 seconds to react and block it or purge it. Should be able to crit.

Yeah and the fact that it suffers double penalty from the damage reduction in PvP makes it further important.

Actually afaik this one is working properly. The explosion hits for the full amount, since the damage used to get there is already halved by Battle Spirit. Can't recall if I tested it specifically though, but I recall it not being a problem in my mind.

My backlash magicka morph tooltip is 25k, no way its hotting for 25k...it would be broken if it dodnt get doible penalty.

danno8 · January 2017

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Solariken Will crescent sweep proc burning light? I was under the impression it wouldn't proc off physical damage. Or does it proc off any damage but only scales with magic?

Could be wrong on both counts, but I thought I heard someone complain about this.

Any Aedric Spear ability can proc it.

And it has scaled off the higher of either Physical/Spell damage for a long time.

I think they changed it to scale off wep and spell damage in the dark brotherhood patch, if I recall correctly. But the damage dealt is still magic damage. Don't know that it matters since it scales off of weapon or spell, just weird.

It says "Physical or Magickal damage, whichever is higher". And on my Magplar the magical damage number is magnitudes higher than the physical damage given.

So it both scales of spell/weapon damage (and maybe magicka/stamina pool also), and deals the correct damage type, according to the tooltip. If not, then it is bugged.

itscompton · January 2017

Zinaroth wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

I'm just hoping @ZOS_RichLambert will throw us a bone since we're losing our only AOE cc.

I assume you're talking about Blazing Spear here?
Blazing Spear was never an AoE CC. It was a single target CC with AoE damage; it would still only CC one target.
The stun on it was good, but you also have Javelin for that. Personally I always found Luminous Shards better if you wanted a CC component with the skill since it was a disorient which is good for breaking through blocks.
That does not mean I condone or agree with the choise of change where you have to go for either CC or damage though.

While Blazing Spear isn't "technically" an AOE CC it sort of works that way in that spamming it on a mob/ball group results in each spear stunning a different enemy so you can keep 2 stunned at a time. This works incredibly well for slowing down a ball group zerging forward with destro ults going.

Xsorus · January 2017

Geez Those are some nasty Stamplar Buffs right there

Mine is going to be freakin beast

danno8 · January 2017

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the really great feedback in this thread. We have a number of updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Biting Jabs – Will now be undodgeable like the base ability.

Biting Jabs – Fixed an issue where the cost per level wasn’t set correctly. (overall cost reduction of approximately 20%)

Radial Sweep (and morphs) – Initial hit of damage is now undodgeable (it is an AOE after all)

Crescent Sweep – This morph now does physical damage instead of magicka

Piercing Javelin (and morphs) – Increased the speed of the projectile by 40%

Binding Javelin – Reduced the stamina cost by 20%. (to match other stam abilities)

Backlash (and morphs) – Reduced the amount of damage needed to reach the cap and increased the percentage of damage released. It should be much easier for a solo player who focuses damage on a target to use now.

Some very good PvP changes in here, but Stamplar seems as useless as ever in endgame PvE. Biting Jabs cost reduction will help with sustain, but even with infinite stamina, Stamplar just do not do enough DPS for endgame. Especially with most boss mechanics being punishing on melee. A melee build better bring something special to endgame PvE and Stamplar do not.

The Backlash change is not clear to me. Is the damage cap on explosion being lowered? For example, depending on max stam, I think damage cap is around 23k for Power of the Light. Will that be going down to 15k or something? Or will damage cap stay at 23k but it will simply be easier to have final explosion actually do 23k damage? Have you given any thought to allowing Backlash to truly crit? Right now, Backlash crits always hit up against the damage cap and essentially do the exact same damage as a non-crit. Is that intended? It really hurts the skill in endgame PvE. The tooltip looks sexy but the inability to crit makes it inferior to skills that look worse on tooltips but can surpass Backlash when you realize those other skills will be critting 80%+ of the time.

+1 for critting backlash

+1 +1

Skill has a huge glowing tower of light or spirally thing(Power of the light) as a telegraph, so you have 6 seconds to react and block it or purge it. Should be able to crit.

Yeah and the fact that it suffers double penalty from the damage reduction in PvP makes it further important.

Actually afaik this one is working properly. The explosion hits for the full amount, since the damage used to get there is already halved by Battle Spirit. Can't recall if I tested it specifically though, but I recall it not being a problem in my mind.

My backlash magicka morph tooltip is 25k, no way its hotting for 25k...it would be broken if it dodnt get doible penalty.

Keep in mind to hit that cap in PvP, you have to do over 100,000 damage in those 6 seconds. Between blocking, dodging, purging and shielding, like I said earlier I have never hit the cap.

However, I have never tested it properly. If it does get hit by the double dipping into Battle Spirit it would be the only one I'm aware of. And it would be no wonder it is sooooo bad in PvP. Having a skill that is delayed by 6 seconds, that requires 100,000 damage in order to get max12k damage, that is mitigated by every type of mitigation in the game, is frankly horrible.

SwaminoNowlino · January 2017

danno8 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Solariken Will crescent sweep proc burning light? I was under the impression it wouldn't proc off physical damage. Or does it proc off any damage but only scales with magic?

Could be wrong on both counts, but I thought I heard someone complain about this.

Any Aedric Spear ability can proc it.

And it has scaled off the higher of either Physical/Spell damage for a long time.

I think they changed it to scale off wep and spell damage in the dark brotherhood patch, if I recall correctly. But the damage dealt is still magic damage. Don't know that it matters since it scales off of weapon or spell, just weird.

It says "Physical or Magickal damage, whichever is higher". And on my Magplar the magical damage number is magnitudes higher than the physical damage given.

So it both scales of spell/weapon damage (and maybe magicka/stamina pool also), and deals the correct damage type, according to the tooltip. If not, then it is bugged.

Yeah but the type of damage it deals matters in terms of it being boosted by champion points. The tool tip states the damage is scaled based off weapon or spell power, but it also explicitly says the damage dealt is magic damage (note this is based on a screenshot since I haven't been home to check). If this is the case magicka Templar burning light gets the benefit of elemental expert but stamplar doesn't get scaled off of mighty.

May be wrong, I've never tested it. Just basing off of how the tool tip reads.

SwaminoNowlino · January 2017

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Solariken Will crescent sweep proc burning light? I was under the impression it wouldn't proc off physical damage. Or does it proc off any damage but only scales with magic?

Could be wrong on both counts, but I thought I heard someone complain about this.

Any Aedric Spear ability can proc it.

And it has scaled off the higher of either Physical/Spell damage for a long time.

I think they changed it to scale off wep and spell damage in the dark brotherhood patch, if I recall correctly. But the damage dealt is still magic damage. Don't know that it matters since it scales off of weapon or spell, just weird.

If your weapon damage/stamina is higher, it does physical damage. If your spell damage/magicka is higher, it does magic damage.

Can you quote the exact wording of the tool tip. The most recent picture posted on google specifically says magic damage, but the damage is increased based on the higher of weapon or spell power. Those are different things. Matters for CP purposes.

CylindricalBox · January 2017

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Now the poor stamplars that have vastly superior heals + sustain over even Stam DKs

Let's look at healing first.

Stamina Dragonknight has 25% healing done (Major Mending from Igneous Shield), 12% healing received (Burning Heart passive), and techincally another 8% healing received (Minor Vitality from Coagulating Blood) but we'll count that one out. So, DK has a total of 37% in-class buffs to self-healing.

Stamina Templar has 25% (Major Mending from Sacred Ground) and 8% (Minor Vitality from Restoring Focus) for a total of 33% in-class buffs to self-healing.

The numbers speak for themselves. Both classes have excellent self-healing, but Templar is by no means vastly superior to Dragonknight in this respect.

As far as sustain goes, Templar has the Restoring Spirit passive (4% Magicka, Stamina, and Ultimate cost reduction) and Repentance. These skills are not bad but they simply don't compare to the passive sustain of Helping Hands and Battle Roar.
While these DK passives convert Magicka and Ultimate, resources that regenerate automatically and indefinitely, into Stamina, Repentance is limited to work only on nearby corpses no more than once. This make Repentance useless when playing defensively and subpar otherwise unless there's a constant stream of fodder dying at the caster's feet.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Rivaled mobility to NBs

I'm not really going to bother addressing this in detail because it's a bit out in left field, but Stamina Nightblade has invisiblity, Major Expedition, an excellent gap closer, and a teleport available in-class. Stamina Templar has none of these.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

A stamplar has an efficient extended ritual that can be sustained through a free-to-cast rune focus augmenting enough magic sustain for liberal usage.

Every other Stam build has to be mindful of incoming debuffs, poisions, and lingering DOTs

Extended Ritual is undoubtedly the strongest skill available to a Stamina Templar; however, it's important not to give Extended Ritual more credit than is due. A typical Stamina Templar can not cleanse more than three times in succession without tripots, and bear in mind that there are multiple poisons and abilities that inflict up to three separate effects in one hit. Finally, a Stamina Templar inflicted with a Magicka drain poison won't be able to cleanse more than once, if at all.

It's also disingenuous to say Rune Focus is "free" to cast and even more so to imply that Channeled Focus is the preferred morph for a Stamina build. Restoring Focus is much more effective than Channeled Focus given how little use the Magicka pool has other than for cleanse and how powerful Minor Protection is.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

(5k+ Vigor ticks on a min-maxed heavy armor build, 3k+ easy on medium armor builds)

These numbers are simply invalid. 5,000 critical heals with Vigor may be possible at a keep with Malubeth, heavily invested CPs, and perhaps Vitality potions, but such a build is giving up a lot of damage and sustain to heal that hard. Moreover, Vigor is a supplemental heal and one of only two reliable heals available to any Stamina build. Rally is much more powerful in terms of raw healing potential. I will not dispute that healing is too strong in general, but this is not a problem exclusive to Stamina Templar, or even Stamina build overall. This is a problem with the power of multiple healing buffs, such as Major Mending and Major Vitality, stacking with each other and Champion Point passives, class passives, and PVP passives.

technohic · January 2017

Am I the only one that kind of likes the idea behind empowering sweep and it just winds up not executing as well as I would hope? The bonus for the enemies hit, I have to really be in the middle of some heavy crap but all I can do in that is spam some BOL or maybe Blazing Shield but then I'm thinking maybe I don't want to take less damage when blazing shield is up?

leepalmer95 · January 2017

itscompton wrote: »

tamrielwinner wrote: »

i was damage testing radiant destruction with my templar 561+ friend who runs full yellow damage gear(no sustain sets), food up, and entropy. i cannot agree with a 21% damage nerf on this ability. i wasn't seeing offending damage enough on it.

in our best attempts to produce any sort of insane damage(10k+), she had to start the beam when i had around 15% hp or less, which should be normal for an execute.

That's the true issue with RO, none of the complainers really use it in solo/small group play and don't understand that it's DPS is already ridiculously low unless the target is at less that 10-15% health. People get hit with it in PvP for two ticks when they have 6000 health left and the first tick does a reasonable/underpowered 3000k damage but the tick that kills them overkills for 12k when they have 3K health and suddenly they're pissed because the death recap shows 15K damage in 2 seconds. Even with 35K max magic and 4k spell damage when I run solo (which is almost always) casting RO on anyone with more than 15% health is a total waste of magica since the ticks of damage are so low 90% of builds can outheal the DPS.

Morph that increased dmg by 20%
Double dips into cp so an easy 15%

Thats 35% more dmg than other executes.

I've 1 hit people plenty of times when they have been at 30%. The issue with beam with the range, the fact it's undodgeable as well. Plus the first tick in so quick the animation doesn't even appear.

If someone is at like 40% you press beam, 1s the second tick happens and there dead.

They have 1s to react or they die.

timidobserver · January 2017

Spearblade wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the really great feedback in this thread. We have a number of updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Biting Jabs – Will now be undodgeable like the base ability.

Biting Jabs – Fixed an issue where the cost per level wasn’t set correctly. (overall cost reduction of approximately 20%)

Radial Sweep (and morphs) – Initial hit of damage is now undodgeable (it is an AOE after all)

Crescent Sweep – This morph now does physical damage instead of magicka

Piercing Javelin (and morphs) – Increased the speed of the projectile by 40%

Binding Javelin – Reduced the stamina cost by 20%. (to match other stam abilities)

Backlash (and morphs) – Reduced the amount of damage needed to reach the cap and increased the percentage of damage released. It should be much easier for a solo player who focuses damage on a target to use now.

Thank you for sharing this early. It gives me some hope for my Stamplar.

Things I still hope to see:

Rune Focus: Mobility is such a huge part of this game. Extended Ritual is fine because it's a heal, and has a massive radius. Staying in that little Rune Focus circle for Major Resolve/Ward, etc just isn't worth it most of the time (8 seconds out of it isn't enough either). If you have to stand in that silly little circle sacrificing mobility, it needs to be something ridiculously good, like Major Protection or something. Not something as meager and common as Major Resolve/Ward.

Radial/Crescent Sweep: Still needs some damage/utility tweaking. These ultimates are almost never used due to the fact that the damage/radius is just plain lackluster. Dawnbreaker will still be favorable in pretty much every scenario for Stamina builds and Magicka has better ultimates in the form of destro ulti, meteor, soul assault, etc.

Backlash (Power of the Light): I'm refraining from judging completely until I see numbers, but it would be nice to have a dot component added, rather than just delayed damage that requires you to hit damage thresholds to be worthwhile. I would happily trade Minor Fracture (or whatever) if it adds a more reliable source of damage for Stamplar.

Passives: Plenty of opportunity for tweaking here, and probably the easiest changes. Most passives are pretty much worthless for Stamina Templars. If I recall correctly, I have all the Aedric Spear passives, Dawn's Wrath only has cost reduction (this may change, if a Dawn's Wrath ability becomes more viable ((Power of the Light)), and Restoring Light is Major Mending passive, and Rez speed.

Repentance?: This ability could single handedly revive Stamplars in a group or trial setting, assuming you can keep Magplars out of it. This may not be popular among other forum readers here, but if you want to create a niche for Stamplar... and keep their damage subpar, this would be a good way to do it. If Stamina Templars single handedly have the unique ability to restore Stamina to their group, they have purpose. It may also be worth considering adding/tweaking something in the skill so more than one Repentance user in a group isn't moot. Otherwise, only one Stamplar is going to find a spot in a trial.

Sun Shield: This skill is incredibly niche, as most Health-scaling abilities are. It looks awesome, and it sort of identifies Templars to an extent. Hurricane provides instant identification to a Stamina Sorcerer as their bread and butter buff. I propose a rework to make this skill a Templar's. As for ideas on how to do that... perhaps a Stamina-based shield, rework it into our Major Resolve/Ward buff + increase duration, a 30 sec reflect chance to free up Eclipse/Unstable Core into something more useful, a source of Major Brutality/Sorcery, a more concrete damage shield vs an absorb...there are many options. It's just a shame that it's pretty much limited to trolly health builds in Cyrodiil. Again, it looks really cool and I'd love to have a use for it.

Solar Barrage: This could be a FANTASTIC way to add more use in Dawn's Wrath for Stamina Templars. Magplars almost NEVER pick this morph. Switch to Physical, and increase the radius a bit (close but not more than Steel Tornado). Steel Tornado has an execute threshold, and increased damage to CC'd targets passively, so the Empower can probably even stay. Currently, Stamina Templars are pretty much forced into 2H (or pricy potions) for Major Brutality, so this would give them a true AOE attack that could perform quite well (not the conal aoe that is Jabs).

Explosive Charge: Aside from the fact that this morph is pretty much never used by Magplars (again), I can actually forgive this being a second magicka morph, assuming we have a good aoe in the form of something like Solar Barrage (above). There's nothing wrong with Critical Charge as a gap closer. Otherwise, there's really no good reason not to make a Stamina morph here.

I think that's all the ideas I have for now.

Sometimes people make it hard to support them lol. What you've typed on the topic of Repentance and keeping magplars out of it actually made me almost change my stance from wanting to buff Stamplars. I am for buffing Stamplar, but I am not for doing it at the expense of magplars.

danno8 · January 2017

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Solariken Will crescent sweep proc burning light? I was under the impression it wouldn't proc off physical damage. Or does it proc off any damage but only scales with magic?

Could be wrong on both counts, but I thought I heard someone complain about this.

Any Aedric Spear ability can proc it.

And it has scaled off the higher of either Physical/Spell damage for a long time.

I think they changed it to scale off wep and spell damage in the dark brotherhood patch, if I recall correctly. But the damage dealt is still magic damage. Don't know that it matters since it scales off of weapon or spell, just weird.

If your weapon damage/stamina is higher, it does physical damage. If your spell damage/magicka is higher, it does magic damage.

Can you quote the exact wording of the tool tip. The most recent picture posted on google specifically says magic damage, but the damage is increased based on the higher of weapon or spell power. Those are different things. Matters for CP purposes.

Google image is real old.

Current tooltip in game says "Physical damage or magic damage, the higher of the two."

BigES · January 2017

Radiant Destruction's problem is the range, and the duration. The thing lasts entirely too long. No respectible PvP magicka templars use the full ability duration to execute someone when used correctly. Whereas scrubs just keep it on you hoping to get lucky.

If you shortened the duration, there would be more downtime, requiring the user to cast it more frequently. This would lower PvE damage slightly (more casts/animations), and solve a lot of problems in PvP.

Then the 21% nerf wouldn't be needed.

Joy_Division · January 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

@Joy_Division
@Lore_lai
@Cinbri

Given that I don't think we'll be seeing a Blazing Spear unnerf, nor do I think Lumi Spear will be buffed into acceptable CC, could I ask for your opinion on changing Eclipse from a reflect to a Silence as it's base CC effeect?

I already gave my thoughts on Eclipse here

ZoS isn't going to make a radical change for any skill for Update 13, so they best that can be hoped until the future is to revert it back to when the skill wasn't so inefficient.

I just don't understand how the Sorcs got their curse back (and then some, it got buffed!), but Templars are still stuck with this dumb Blazing Spear change. Any Templar who cares about PvE DPS has to take the damage morph. There is thus no choice for them. Slow stationary ground DoTs are terrible in PvP. Templars are going to slot Javelin. RIP build diversity.

And people who keep defending Luminous because of the CC, am I playing a different game than you?
Look at @Cinbri 's testing:

Where is the CC? Or do you not put DoTs on your enemies? Or have you played a templar for so long that you are accustomed to giving enemies CC immunity?

The reason why the sorc disorient kind of works because it's defensive and reactive in nature. If they get ganked, the automatically CC goes off. Also they can cast it on themselves without having to aim at anything knowing all an enemy attack will set it off and give the reprieve they need.

SwaminoNowlino · January 2017

@danno8 sweet! Thanks. Kept trying to figure out why people were bitching about burning light for stamplars. Guess there's no legit reason after this change lol. I tried! Apparently ZOS has their *** together more than I give them credit for!

hedna123b14_ESO · January 2017

danno8 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the really great feedback in this thread. We have a number of updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Biting Jabs – Will now be undodgeable like the base ability.

Biting Jabs – Fixed an issue where the cost per level wasn’t set correctly. (overall cost reduction of approximately 20%)

Radial Sweep (and morphs) – Initial hit of damage is now undodgeable (it is an AOE after all)

Crescent Sweep – This morph now does physical damage instead of magicka

Piercing Javelin (and morphs) – Increased the speed of the projectile by 40%

Binding Javelin – Reduced the stamina cost by 20%. (to match other stam abilities)

Backlash (and morphs) – Reduced the amount of damage needed to reach the cap and increased the percentage of damage released. It should be much easier for a solo player who focuses damage on a target to use now.

Some very good PvP changes in here, but Stamplar seems as useless as ever in endgame PvE. Biting Jabs cost reduction will help with sustain, but even with infinite stamina, Stamplar just do not do enough DPS for endgame. Especially with most boss mechanics being punishing on melee. A melee build better bring something special to endgame PvE and Stamplar do not.

The Backlash change is not clear to me. Is the damage cap on explosion being lowered? For example, depending on max stam, I think damage cap is around 23k for Power of the Light. Will that be going down to 15k or something? Or will damage cap stay at 23k but it will simply be easier to have final explosion actually do 23k damage? Have you given any thought to allowing Backlash to truly crit? Right now, Backlash crits always hit up against the damage cap and essentially do the exact same damage as a non-crit. Is that intended? It really hurts the skill in endgame PvE. The tooltip looks sexy but the inability to crit makes it inferior to skills that look worse on tooltips but can surpass Backlash when you realize those other skills will be critting 80%+ of the time.

+1 for critting backlash

+1 +1

Skill has a huge glowing tower of light or spirally thing(Power of the light) as a telegraph, so you have 6 seconds to react and block it or purge it. Should be able to crit.

Yeah and the fact that it suffers double penalty from the damage reduction in PvP makes it further important.

Actually afaik this one is working properly. The explosion hits for the full amount, since the damage used to get there is already halved by Battle Spirit. Can't recall if I tested it specifically though, but I recall it not being a problem in my mind.

My backlash magicka morph tooltip is 25k, no way its hotting for 25k...it would be broken if it dodnt get doible penalty.

Keep in mind to hit that cap in PvP, you have to do over 100,000 damage in those 6 seconds. Between blocking, dodging, purging and shielding, like I said earlier I have never hit the cap.

However, I have never tested it properly. If it does get hit by the double dipping into Battle Spirit it would be the only one I'm aware of. And it would be no wonder it is sooooo bad in PvP. Having a skill that is delayed by 6 seconds, that requires 100,000 damage in order to get max12k damage, that is mitigated by every type of mitigation in the game, is frankly horrible.

Just tested it in a duel, it definitely takes double penalty...

saten · January 2017

Now if we could do something for Stampler sustain in long single target fights

JinMori · January 2017

ellahellabella wrote: »

RD doesn't to be nerfed dmg wise but it does need to have it's range reduced
Radiant Aura I probably won't switch to because the stam from repentance I need more than the additional mana

But most of all...

Why take my blazing spear CC away? That's like the best thing about being a Mageplar! WHY?!

Why in a game where stamina trumps magicka are we mag uses losing so many good things?

Stamina sucks in pve compared to magicka, i do agree that the stun removal was stupid tho. Also the nerf to radiant will not fix anything.

ellahellabella · January 2017

Still no blazing spear change =.=
I don't understand why you feel this needs to go Zos, this will make things so much harder in Cyro for solo mageplars like me and I'll explain why.

Cyrodiil is all about CC, timing burst and keeping the dots up.
The most reliable attack a mageplar has is good 'ol puncturing sweep but it is a melee ranged attack. In order for me to jab, I have to be in my opponent's face at all times. Blazing spear is the best CC for this style of gameplay because it is the only skill I can use that will stun my opponent without me having to be clunky. Toppling charge requires distance and nbs can counter easy with their ambush, which has no min range (Jelly

). On top of that, activation of this gap closer is completely unreliable. The Javelin... I throw it and then have to gap close to take advantage of the CC? By the time I start Jabbing, they're going to be back up again!

While the dot from blazing is good for pve, I don't care about the blazing dot for pvp, all the players move out of the obvious red circle. You use it for the cc.

Now everyone is going to have access to an 'In your face' CC except mageplars. Mag sorc, Frags. Mag DK, Fossilise. Mag NB, Fear. All stam classes have access to Dizzying swing or my personal favorite, shield bash.
I'm really going to hate using Javelin...

*edit* Oh and as for luminous Shards? As stated above, completely useless with that disorient... If you could make it like fossilise and have the disorient stay until an enemy takes enough damage however, I would take that.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO · January 2017

The change to Blazing Spear is stupid but I can cope with it. Blazing Spear was an offensive CC, which could be used for Defensive somewhat reliably.

Javelin, which is near impossible to use as a defensive crowd control ability. It's only use is for initiating a fight.

Toppling Charge, is our gap closer which is basically required to be used following Javelin. It's the go-to combo for Aedric Spear.

Eclipse is garbage as a whole.

A very weak AOE snare from our Extended Ritual (30% snare)

Templars are sorely lacking defensive crowd control abilities.

leepalmer95 · January 2017

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

The change to Blazing Spear is stupid but I can cope with it. Blazing Spear was an offensive CC, which could be used for Defensive somewhat reliably.

Javelin, which is near impossible to use as a defensive crowd control ability. It's only use is for initiating a fight.

Toppling Charge, is our gap closer which is basically required to be used following Javelin. It's the go-to combo for Aedric Spear.

Eclipse is garbage as a whole.

A very weak AOE snare from our Extended Ritual (30% snare)

Templars are sorely lacking defensive crowd control abilities.

The aoe snare from ritual shouldn't even be there in the first place, there is no reason for it to snare it already does enough. It's not weak either thats a constant 30% snare that can't be purged if they are standing in it as it'll just re apply. The snare is the same as caltraps after the initial snare on cast.

Javelin got buffed, it's not a bad cc either. It's perfectly usable as a defensive cc ability, it's a knockback cc and now it travels faster, heal up, knock them away and then go offensive.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

The change to Blazing Spear is stupid but I can cope with it. Blazing Spear was an offensive CC, which could be used for Defensive somewhat reliably.

Javelin, which is near impossible to use as a defensive crowd control ability. It's only use is for initiating a fight.

Toppling Charge, is our gap closer which is basically required to be used following Javelin. It's the go-to combo for Aedric Spear.

Eclipse is garbage as a whole.

A very weak AOE snare from our Extended Ritual (30% snare)

Templars are sorely lacking defensive crowd control abilities.

The aoe snare from ritual shouldn't even be there in the first place, there is no reason for it to snare it already does enough. It's not weak either thats a constant 30% snare that can't be purged if they are standing in it as it'll just re apply. The snare is the same as caltraps after the initial snare on cast.

Javelin got buffed, it's not a bad cc either. It's perfectly usable as a defensive cc ability, it's a knockback cc and now it travels faster, heal up, knock them away and then go offensive.

The AOE snare is bad. And it's the passive which grants the snare. 30% is nothing. On paper it seems strong but in reality it doesn't stop anyone. The snare from Caltrops has never phased me either. Snares are only valuable if they're strong. When they're weak, they're truly not that valuable. A minor inconvenience is all it is. It stops nothing. I'm all in favor of removing the snare from Ritual, In exchange for better CC's.

Javelin did get buffed. But it's still not an easily used CC. It's easy to dodge. The effect doesn't last that long. It truly benefits StamDPS the most. That means nothing for me as MagPlar. I won't be using the Javelin while im healer spec'd or dps spec'd. It's a waste of a slot.

Templars are turning into pure garbage. People actually *** that templars spam Breath of Life as a means of survival. When it's one of the only reliable survivability tools we have in our arsenal.

People complain about Templars in Black Rose, spamming Breath of Life? Well, i'm going to start doing more of that.

The more CC they take away from us the more of a HealBot we become.

MalakithAlamahdi · January 2017

"Crescent Sweep – This morph now does physical damage instead of magicka"

Great, so now i can only spam soul assault as a magplar? All the nerfs you gave us doesn't get justified by 400 more magickasteal.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

Brrrofski wrote: »

Yeh, will be interesting to see what damage it does be side Dawn breaker is really good. Crescent may be a good backbar ult though. Currently I have nothing to go there...

Magicka Templar loses the only viable ultimate they had (Those saying otherwise or DB is better on Magicka really need to test Crescent sweep out for themselves; low cost/burst procs burning light and next patch undodgeable) for Stamina Templars to (quoted as an example) back bar it....DBoS will always be the more viable option for stamina builds, besides Incap and Destro ulti it is the most effective/strongest ultimate in PvP damage wise and will therefore still most likely be chosen over CS.

However for Magicka Templars the ultimate synergised really well with most Damage orientated builds with Sword and Shield and DW, DW being important for hard hitting Sweeps to apply good pressure and the burst from CS synergised really well for Radiant despite popular belief of Radiant only synergising well with a HP bar at 100%.

Removing CS leaves Magplars with only Meteor; An easily Telegraphed skill which just doesn't synergise well with Templar (Even more next patch with BS nerf...). For Meteor to be an effective ultimate it is imperative that the recipient fails to block it, to ensure this does happen other classes have specific CC's to use that go through block to ensure a hit; DK Meteor -> Fossilise. NB Meteor -> Fear. Magplar do not have a CC that goes through block besides Luminous shards which doesn't work properly if DoTs are applied which DoTs are crucial for pressure so are always up ticking. Rendering Meteor a wasted ultimate roughly 7/10 times (made that number up to emphasise a point before someone asks me to draw them a graph or my maths doesn't add up and my argument invalid).

Besides Meteor the only other option is Destro ulti. A BS skill that firstly requires a destro to be slotted, which as stated above does not synergise well with Templar imo, lacks dmg on sweeps which is main spammable/sustained dps. And well..what more can I say about this ulti? It's ridiculous and synergises well with any class/any build whether magicka OR even stamina so is viable ultimate for all and when this skill is properly addressed the problem still remains. Which is what viable ultimate does Mageplar now have besides slotting DBoS a weaker CS when Stamina gain CS a weaker DBoS *scratches head*

Blackfyre20 · January 2017

@ZOS_RichLambert all welcome changes. I have read through each of the class feedback threads and it is promising to hear that it sounds like you guys really are listening to feedback. Also, I may not agree with everything but I think I speak for a lot of us when I say we greatly appreciate the communication and I hope this becomes a pattern.

That said, magplars in PvP still lack hard CC with the stun removal from blazing spear. Making luminous an AOE cc and taking the damage off of it would be a great compromise. You said you wanted players to choose between damage and increased resources and the disorient. Because of the issues with the disorient discussed extensively above, this is not really a viable option for a cc. My proposed change would truly be a choice between damage and cc/increased resources.

Also, increasing the range of radial sweep (and morphs) to 8 meters like jabs would make a lot of sense and would not be an over the top buff. The ability was missing a lot both because of dodge and the very small range. Making it undodgeable was a step in the right direction but it still does not make sense to have less range than a templar's spammable melee dps skill. It even has a smaller range than uppercut currently.