PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

Cinbri

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert I know many solo and small group magplars still use dawnbreaker of smiting in pvp if they're not using the destro ulti. Is there anyway we could get a magic morph of dawnbreaker back? If not, could you rework one of the dawns wrath ultimates to provide a cheaper, less group oriented ulti that deals significant damage and maybe even an AOE cc?

@Joy_Division @Cinbri Any thoughts on this?

Well, I want Nova's at least 1 morph as burst damage dealing AoE ability and zos already have perfect concept of such skill:

Cinbri wrote: »

Change one of the morphs of Nova ultimate:
This ult currently is most expensive and so should provide great effectiveness in large fights, however unlike same ults of other classes this one can't provide serious damage that can be used against stacked overnumbered enemies. So, while one morph will be still defensive that debuff enemies' damage other morph can become offensive AoE burst damage. Zos already have this concept, yet again implemented to primate Artorius and his ability "Sacred Nova":
Concept could be like this: 1 sec ult is casting[with 30% reduction while channeled](to be familiar to templars - slow by design) and than explode.

From pov it will looks something like NB's Soul Shred ultimate.

It can have any additional effects like being unblockable or ignoring target armor, etc. In recap it would be like this:

If Backlash will be changed nicely it might finally become nice quasi-execute ability in PvP and finally become usefull and take RD niche. Can't wait patch to check actual numbers on my main char.

P.S.: However right now i concerned about Luminous Shards. It's fix along with Honor fix must be zos' top1 priority over any other pts changes. They monitoring how Coagulated Blood perfoming and this is good but it working as intended, while Luminous obviously not just weak but also not working as intended and killing any diversity of morphing skill.

Lord_Eomer

Radiant Destruction deserve this nerf for PVP only

Autolycus

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Radiant Destruction deserve this nerf for PVP only

Agreed, and probably should have been done through Battle Spirit instead of nerfing the skill itself.

tamrielwinner

i was damage testing radiant destruction with my templar 561+ friend who runs full yellow damage gear(no sustain sets), food up, and entropy. i cannot agree with a 21% damage nerf on this ability. i wasn't seeing offending damage enough on it.

in our best attempts to produce any sort of insane damage(10k+), she had to start the beam when i had around 15% hp or less, which should be normal for an execute.

ManDraKE

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Radiant Destruction deserve this nerf for PVP only

yeah because magplar wasn't already the indisputed king of ranged dps, plus the one with the easiest rotation (below 40% = put dots, radiant, put dots, radiant...).

Zinaroth

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

I'm just hoping @ZOS_RichLambert will throw us a bone since we're losing our only AOE cc.

I assume you're talking about Blazing Spear here?
Blazing Spear was never an AoE CC. It was a single target CC with AoE damage; it would still only CC one target.
The stun on it was good, but you also have Javelin for that. Personally I always found Luminous Shards better if you wanted a CC component with the skill since it was a disorient which is good for breaking through blocks.
That does not mean I condone or agree with the choise of change where you have to go for either CC or damage though.

danno8

Autolycus wrote: »

Backlash (and morphs) – Reduced the amount of damage needed to reach the cap and increased the percentage of damage released. It should be much easier for a solo player who focuses damage on a target to use now.

Please rephrase the change to Backlash - I'm quite proficient in Engrish and I just don't understand your wording.

More of the stored damage will be released. At face value, this looks like a buff.

It sounds to me like they just reverted it to what it was before.

The last "buff" increased the cap, but lowered the % of damage that was released, which meant that it was harder to reach the cap, but it could hit higher.

Unless all they are doing is increasing the % of copied damage that gets released and keeping the cap where it is. That would make it quicker to reach the cap, but not change the overall damage.

In PvE you reach the cap easily every time, in PvP I find I never could get there. What would be a cool idea is if the skill automatically exploded once the cap was reached and you didn't have to wait for the explosion.

Solariken

Akimbro wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the really great feedback in this thread. We have a number of updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:

• Biting Jabs – Will now be undodgeable like the base ability.
• Biting Jabs – Fixed an issue where the cost per level wasn’t set correctly. (overall cost reduction of approximately 20%)
• Radial Sweep (and morphs) – Initial hit of damage is now undodgeable (it is an AOE after all)
• Crescent Sweep – This morph now does physical damage instead of magicka
• Piercing Javelin (and morphs) – Increased the speed of the projectile by 40%
• Binding Javelin – Reduced the stamina cost by 20%. (to match other stam abilities)
• Backlash (and morphs) – Reduced the amount of damage needed to reach the cap and increased the percentage of damage released. It should be much easier for a solo player who focuses damage on a target to use now.

Some really great changes here that I've been seeing suggested on the forums for quite some time. Although the changes are kind of more oriented towards PVP stamplar, it would be nice to see some changes oriented towards PVE stamplar in the future.

Backlash and Crescent Sweep seem to be PvE-focused changes @Akimbro.

CS is going to pump up Stamplar DPS considerably since it will be used twice as often as DB and give a bunch of extra Burning Light opportunity. DBoS will still likely be dominant in PvP though because of the CC and it doesn't miss.

PotL should prove to be decent in a PvE DPS rotation too, although I would REALLY love to see them add a DOT to this.

Lord_Hev

I love it. Pooooooor Stamplars oh boooo hoooo.


They rob everything, literally everything and it's so undeserved. Magic Templars had one average burst ult that like, sorta rivaled Magblade's Soul Harvest kinda.... and now even that was robbed.


Incap strike stolen and abused by stam,

Dawnbreaker stolen and abused by stam.


Now the poor stamplars that have vastly superior heals + sustain over even Stam DKs, and rivaled mobility to NBs in addition to purges on demand get another multiple buffs + rob Magplars of their only burst Ultimate that was already mediocre to begin with damage wise.


I can't wait till they completely put the nail in the coffin of overload and make that stam too lol.

danno8

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the really great feedback in this thread. We have a number of updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:

• Biting Jabs – Will now be undodgeable like the base ability.
• Biting Jabs – Fixed an issue where the cost per level wasn’t set correctly. (overall cost reduction of approximately 20%)
• Radial Sweep (and morphs) – Initial hit of damage is now undodgeable (it is an AOE after all)
• Crescent Sweep – This morph now does physical damage instead of magicka
• Piercing Javelin (and morphs) – Increased the speed of the projectile by 40%
• Binding Javelin – Reduced the stamina cost by 20%. (to match other stam abilities)
• Backlash (and morphs) – Reduced the amount of damage needed to reach the cap and increased the percentage of damage released. It should be much easier for a solo player who focuses damage on a target to use now.

Some very good PvP changes in here, but Stamplar seems as useless as ever in endgame PvE. Biting Jabs cost reduction will help with sustain, but even with infinite stamina, Stamplar just do not do enough DPS for endgame. Especially with most boss mechanics being punishing on melee. A melee build better bring something special to endgame PvE and Stamplar do not.

The Backlash change is not clear to me. Is the damage cap on explosion being lowered? For example, depending on max stam, I think damage cap is around 23k for Power of the Light. Will that be going down to 15k or something? Or will damage cap stay at 23k but it will simply be easier to have final explosion actually do 23k damage? Have you given any thought to allowing Backlash to truly crit? Right now, Backlash crits always hit up against the damage cap and essentially do the exact same damage as a non-crit. Is that intended? It really hurts the skill in endgame PvE. The tooltip looks sexy but the inability to crit makes it inferior to skills that look worse on tooltips but can surpass Backlash when you realize those other skills will be critting 80%+ of the time.

+1 for critting backlash

+1 +1

Skill has a huge glowing tower of light or spirally thing(Power of the light) as a telegraph, so you have 6 seconds to react and block it or purge it. Should be able to crit.

Yeah and the fact that it suffers double penalty from the damage reduction in PvP makes it further important.

Actually afaik this one is working properly. The explosion hits for the full amount, since the damage used to get there is already halved by Battle Spirit. Can't recall if I tested it specifically though, but I recall it not being a problem in my mind.

SwaminoNowlino

@Solariken Will crescent sweep proc burning light? I was under the impression it wouldn't proc off physical damage. Or does it proc off any damage but only scales with magic?

Could be wrong on both counts, but I thought I heard someone complain about this.

Solariken

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Solariken Will crescent sweep proc burning light? I was under the impression it wouldn't proc off physical damage. Or does it proc off any damage but only scales with magic?

Could be wrong on both counts, but I thought I heard someone complain about this.

Yes @SwaminoNowlino, it procs on Aedric Spear abilities, it's not tied to a damage type. So CS can proc it both on the initial hit and the pulsing DOT ticks.

danno8

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Solariken Will crescent sweep proc burning light? I was under the impression it wouldn't proc off physical damage. Or does it proc off any damage but only scales with magic?

Could be wrong on both counts, but I thought I heard someone complain about this.

Any Aedric Spear ability can proc it.

And it has scaled off the higher of either Physical/Spell damage for a long time.

SwaminoNowlino

Solariken wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Solariken Will crescent sweep proc burning light? I was under the impression it wouldn't proc off physical damage. Or does it proc off any damage but only scales with magic?

Could be wrong on both counts, but I thought I heard someone complain about this.

Yes @SwaminoNowlino, it procs on Aedric Spear abilities, it's not tied to a damage type. So CS can proc it both on the initial hit and the pulsing DOT ticks.

Was trying to find a tool tip on Google and this is the latest I found:

"Gives you a 25% chance to cause an extra x magic damage any time you hit with an Aedric Spear ability. (Damage uses Spell Damage or Weapon Damage based on which is higher)."

I hate how tool tips are so cryptically written. It looks to me like the damage scales based on wep or spell power, but it still only deals magic damage?

SwaminoNowlino

danno8 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Solariken Will crescent sweep proc burning light? I was under the impression it wouldn't proc off physical damage. Or does it proc off any damage but only scales with magic?

Could be wrong on both counts, but I thought I heard someone complain about this.

Any Aedric Spear ability can proc it.

And it has scaled off the higher of either Physical/Spell damage for a long time.

I think they changed it to scale off wep and spell damage in the dark brotherhood patch, if I recall correctly. But the damage dealt is still magic damage. Don't know that it matters since it scales off of weapon or spell, just weird.

Lord_Hev

Crescent Sweep cannot be stolen. This is absolutely absurd. The other unneeded buffs are more then enough for the poooor Stamplars that have always been the only balanced Stam Class(use to be OP as **** before ZOS buttered up Stam Sorcs as their new favorite child..)


Do not rob Magplars of the only reasonable burst ult they can get. If you guys wanna keep stealing class defining magic ults and handing them to Stamina builds on a silver platter, something needs to give. Make DBoS Magic again and leave Flawless for Stamina or something.

Ron_Burgundy_79

Zinaroth wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

I'm just hoping @ZOS_RichLambert will throw us a bone since we're losing our only AOE cc.

I assume you're talking about Blazing Spear here?
Blazing Spear was never an AoE CC. It was a single target CC with AoE damage; it would still only CC one target.
The stun on it was good, but you also have Javelin for that. Personally I always found Luminous Shards better if you wanted a CC component with the skill since it was a disorient which is good for breaking through blocks.
That does not mean I condone or agree with the choise of change where you have to go for either CC or damage though.

Luminous stun ends as soon as the target takes damage. If a dot is applied prior to the cc (entropy/reflective light) luminous will provide a free cc immunity to the target.

I stated my point poorly. I should have said blazing spear was our best defensive cc. While it is a single target cc, it is also an AOE ability that is not affected by shuffle. That alone makes it better than aurora javelin. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, using aurora javelin against a shuffle user is like Shaq shooting freethrows blindfolded. It's no bueno.

usmcjdking

@Joy_Division
@Lore_lai
@Cinbri

Given that I don't think we'll be seeing a Blazing Spear unnerf, nor do I think Lumi Spear will be buffed into acceptable CC, could I ask for your opinion on changing Eclipse from a reflect to a Silence as it's base CC effeect?

usmcjdking

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The other unneeded buffs are more then enough for the poooor Stamplars that have always been the only balanced Stam Class(use to be OP as **** before ZOS buttered up Stam Sorcs as their new favorite child..)

???

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Qaevir Av Morilye | AD/EP Magic Sorcerer (Former Emperor of Thornblade, Chillrend, & Haderus)
Qaevir's Champion | AD Magic Dragonknight (The Last Emperor of Thornblade)
Qaevir Av Molag | EP Magic Dragonknight (Former Emperor of Haderus)
Qaevir's Unbound Minion | DC Magic Dragonknight

Lord_Hev

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The other unneeded buffs are more then enough for the poooor Stamplars that have always been the only balanced Stam Class(use to be OP as **** before ZOS buttered up Stam Sorcs as their new favorite child..)

???

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Qaevir Av Morilye | AD/EP Magic Sorcerer (Former Emperor of Thornblade, Chillrend, & Haderus)
Qaevir's Champion | AD Magic Dragonknight (The Last Emperor of Thornblade)
Qaevir Av Molag | EP Magic Dragonknight (Former Emperor of Haderus)
Qaevir's Unbound Minion | DC Magic Dragonknight

Qaevir Av Moriłye | AD Magic Templar


I know reading can be very difficult these days.

usmcjdking

Lord_Hev wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The other unneeded buffs are more then enough for the poooor Stamplars that have always been the only balanced Stam Class(use to be OP as **** before ZOS buttered up Stam Sorcs as their new favorite child..)

???

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Qaevir Av Morilye | AD/EP Magic Sorcerer (Former Emperor of Thornblade, Chillrend, & Haderus)
Qaevir's Champion | AD Magic Dragonknight (The Last Emperor of Thornblade)
Qaevir Av Molag | EP Magic Dragonknight (Former Emperor of Haderus)
Qaevir's Unbound Minion | DC Magic Dragonknight

Qaevir Av Moriłye | AD Magic Templar


I know reading can be very difficult these days.

I have no idea how you could even possibly ascertain the idea that Stamplar is balanced by playing a Magplar.

Ron_Burgundy_79

usmcjdking wrote: »

@Joy_Division
@Lore_lai
@Cinbri

Given that I don't think we'll be seeing a Blazing Spear unnerf, nor do I think Lumi Spear will be buffed into acceptable CC, could I ask for your opinion on changing Eclipse from a reflect to a Silence as it's base CC effeect?

How about we scrap all of these defensive CC's and @ZOS_RichLambert gives us back blinding flashes? Seems fair.



Edit: found an acceptable meme

Spearblade

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Crescent Sweep cannot be stolen. This is absolutely absurd. The other unneeded buffs are more then enough for the poooor Stamplars that have always been the only balanced Stam Class(use to be OP as **** before ZOS buttered up Stam Sorcs as their new favorite child..)


Do not rob Magplars of the only reasonable burst ult they can get. If you guys wanna keep stealing class defining magic ults and handing them to Stamina builds on a silver platter, something needs to give. Make DBoS Magic again and leave Flawless for Stamina or something.

Honestly, pretty much every class skill should have a Stamina morph imo. Also, Meteor is good burst. Soul Assault is fantastic, though a bit harder to pull off in PVP. And I can't believe I almost forgot, DESTRO ulti is insane. It's not direct damage per say, but the ticks are fast enough to be considered burst imho.

Mages Guild is magicka stuff.
Fighters Guild is stamina stuff.

This makes sense, and the fact that it wasn't originally, only speaks to how flawed the game originally was. Also, CP has completely changed the game and how it operates, and they're still playing catch up with that.

You can only pick one ulti morph anyways- if anything, advocate for changes to make Radial better. Both morphs are subpar status quo.

bikerangelo

I'd be ok with Eclipse acting as a single target mini-negate, the old version was really only fun to use when double reflects were still a thing.

Lord_Hev

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The other unneeded buffs are more then enough for the poooor Stamplars that have always been the only balanced Stam Class(use to be OP as **** before ZOS buttered up Stam Sorcs as their new favorite child..)

???

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Qaevir Av Morilye | AD/EP Magic Sorcerer (Former Emperor of Thornblade, Chillrend, & Haderus)
Qaevir's Champion | AD Magic Dragonknight (The Last Emperor of Thornblade)
Qaevir Av Molag | EP Magic Dragonknight (Former Emperor of Haderus)
Qaevir's Unbound Minion | DC Magic Dragonknight

Qaevir Av Moriłye | AD Magic Templar


I know reading can be very difficult these days.

I have no idea how you could even possibly ascertain the idea that Stamplar is balanced by playing a Magplar.

I can ascertain it through actual combat with them. Something people don't do these days. You don't gain objective insight by just playing as something, you also need to fight it.


All that needs to be done, is analysis of skills and functions, and how they translate to open-world effectiveness.


A stamplar has an efficient extended ritual that can be sustained through a free-to-cast rune focus augmenting enough magic sustain for liberal usage. They have spike damage through their sustained biting jabs DPS through burning light that all scales with weapon damage, meaning like with all things stamina, damage is mind-numblingly easy, a non-min-maxed Stam build can dent people's health simply because.


So we have a Stam class that can have 100% uptime on Major Mending.(just like Magplar) but better then Magplar, they have constant over-powered HOTs(5k+ Vigor ticks on a min-maxed heavy armor build, 3k+ easy on medium armor builds) in addition to free burst heals through rally that can be boosted conveniently by having extended ritual or their 20 second rune focus buff(8 seconds if they have to venture off it which can be re-applied anywhere for no cost) all the while having major evasion layered on top of all these innate defenses. The liberal usage of extended ritual allows for very forgiving play where every other Stam build has to be mindful of incoming debuffs, poisions, and lingering DOTs.


The last thing they need is another toy robbed from Magplars that can pretty much only kill things atm with Radiant Destruction. We can argue the other buffs the , oh so un-loved Stamplar community needs all day.... but crescent sweep definitely was not one of them under any circumstance.


Don't just take my word for it though....

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

These changes on paper are awesome. I will likely still use dawnbreaker.

I wonder why. Oh, it's because Stamplars of all the oh sooo pooor underwhelming game-play they suffer from.... they never needed an ult burst. Like all Stam builds, they have DBoS. For what reason is Crescent Sweep -objectively- needed for Stamplars to benefit from when Magic Templars have zero burst outside of gimmick Dark Flare > Javelin > Radiant Destruction combos? Like every other magic class the only powerful burst ult they have is meteor. But at least Crescent Sweep(underwhelming as it was) could still serve as an option for Magplars to use due to it's very efficient ult cost.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

You should increase the attack speed of Biting Jabs by 10% to make their PVE DPS viable.

usmcjdking

Lord_Hev wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The other unneeded buffs are more then enough for the poooor Stamplars that have always been the only balanced Stam Class(use to be OP as **** before ZOS buttered up Stam Sorcs as their new favorite child..)

???

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Qaevir Av Morilye | AD/EP Magic Sorcerer (Former Emperor of Thornblade, Chillrend, & Haderus)
Qaevir's Champion | AD Magic Dragonknight (The Last Emperor of Thornblade)
Qaevir Av Molag | EP Magic Dragonknight (Former Emperor of Haderus)
Qaevir's Unbound Minion | DC Magic Dragonknight

Qaevir Av Moriłye | AD Magic Templar


I know reading can be very difficult these days.

I have no idea how you could even possibly ascertain the idea that Stamplar is balanced by playing a Magplar.

I can ascertain it through actual combat with them. Something people don't do these days. You don't gain objective insight by just playing as something, you also need to fight it.


All that needs to be done, is analysis of skills and functions, and how they translate to open-world effectiveness.


A stamplar has an efficient extended ritual that can be sustained through a free-to-cast rune focus augmenting enough magic sustain for liberal usage. They have spike damage through their sustained biting jabs DPS through burning light that all scales with weapon damage, meaning like with all things stamina, damage is mind-numblingly easy, a non-min-maxed Stam build can dent people's health simply because.


So we have a Stam class that can have 100% uptime on Major Mending.(just like Magplar) but better then Magplar, they have constant over-powered HOTs(5k+ Vigor ticks on a min-maxed heavy armor build, 3k+ easy on medium armor builds) in addition to free burst heals through rally that can be boosted conveniently by having extended ritual or their 20 second rune focus buff(8 seconds if they have to venture off it which can be re-applied anywhere for no cost) all the while having major evasion layered on top of all these innate defenses. The liberal usage of extended ritual allows for very forgiving play where every other Stam build has to be mindful of incoming debuffs, poisions, and lingering DOTs.


The last thing they need is another toy robbed from Magplars that can pretty much only kill things atm with Radiant Destruction. We can argue the other buffs the , oh so un-loved Stamplar community needs all day.... but crescent sweep definitely was not one of them under any circumstance.


Don't just take my word for it though....

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

These changes on paper are awesome. I will likely still use dawnbreaker.

I wonder why. Oh, it's because Stamplars of all the oh sooo pooor underwhelming game-play they suffer from.... they never needed an ult burst. Like all Stam builds, they have DBoS. For what reason is Crescent Sweep -objectively- needed for Stamplars to benefit from when Magic Templars have zero burst outside of gimmick Dark Flare > Javelin > Radiant Destruction combos? Like every other magic class the only powerful burst ult they have is meteor. But at least Crescent Sweep(underwhelming as it was) could still serve as an option for Magplars to use due to it's very efficient ult cost.

Despite the QQ undertones this is actually a really good post. Points at the incredible potential of stamplar.

And while your post is indeed well written and thank you for your time - the evidence does not lay witness to anything other than potential instead of actual application. The only thing you need to reference at is the amount of Stamina Templars in the game. People will naturally gravitate towards ez mode - this is an irrefutable observation. The simple fact you keep referencing Stamplar in heavy armor goes to show that you have zero experience with the class since most Stamplars have migrated away from heavy for reasons I prefer not to get into at this time because I'm hangry.

Albeit I do agree on Crescent Sweep, most would have preferred Empowering.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Also, no updates on Blazing Spear and Radiant Oppression? If the changes to those skills is still in tact I'm done playing a healer.

usmcjdking

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

You should increase the attack speed of Biting Jabs by 10% to make their PVE DPS viable.

Stamplar has a host of issues in PVE - this IMO is not one of them.

Inability to proc burning light off anything but jabs (we now have Crescent which is ok), no internal class DOT that actually has scaling damage and 2 entire trees that do not offer one modicum of DPS is what cripples Stamplar in PVE.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

These updates are nice for StamPlar. But until Templar healers have a better AOE CC or Mobility we will entirely rely on BOL spamming and Heavy armor in PVP.

We can't escape, and now we crowd control even less. Looks like I'm going to be running Fire rune for AOE CC until Templars get their cc and "house defense" figured out.