Again can we actually balance dark deal already.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Phica_Lovic wrote: »

No.

It's not a channel, it's a 1-second delay.

It's a channel...

It's a one second cast time. That is, oddly enough, different from a channeled ability. As far as I can remember, sorcs don't have any channeled abilities. Hell, there aren't many in the game. Spells with cast time? Sure, it's got those. But, not many channeled abilities.

All skills with cast times have a snare attached to them, snipe, flare etc... dark deal is the only one without it.

Well, that's not true because Dark Exchange and Dark Conversion also lack roots (I think). I can actually think of two other abilities that both have cast times and lack roots, but in both cases, those actually are channeled abilities.

It's also something that didn't used to be true. The entire Dark stat manipulation family used to have a root associated with them. This was intentionally removed a couple patches back. Before that, these abilities just weren't worth using at all, so the root was removed to bring them up to snuff. (I think the stats may have been adjusted as well, but I don't remember because, when the abilities rooted you there was no reason to slot them.)

Was this removed before they heavily buffed dark deal or after? Because if it was removed before that it needs to be looked at again because dark deal was useless back then but now it's too strong.

I still think a 20-25% nerf on the stamina gained, reduction in the heal and an actual penalty for someone going to their way to interrupt you isn't that much of a nerf.

The reason im asking for the snare on cast is because it's literally impossible for stuff like mag dk/ mag templar or mag nb to interrupt a stam sorc. If your not literally next to them when they first cast it your not going to be able to interrupt before they get it off.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Tasear wrote: »

By design and history, sorcerers should have better sustain. It's already increased costs from pass. Before we nerf this we take Templar shards away.

Templar shards = dark deal sustain?

Wut.

The only increased costs is streak?

You've lost me.

Biro123 · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

1. If you actually played sorc you'd know you don't run out of stamina...
2. It is true you just slap on heavy and dark deal and sustain forever... it is not situational its super easy to pull of with no penalty for being interrupted..
3. I don't zerg... all game mechanics and skill is pointless in zergs anyway that is based off numbers and the numbersof ults people drop at once and irrelevant
4. Surge doesn't take half your magicka... do you even stam sorc? Stop exaggerating numbers and facts for the benefit of your 'point'.
5. Your entire pew pew bow argument is actually just stupid, no one 'pew pews', again zerging is pointless. Your numbers and guesses are completely off. How will you have half stamina before you have another dark deal? What are you casting with your pew pew? Injection doesn't cost much...

All i got from this is you don't or have little idea how to play stam sorc, your a zerger, you exaggerate things and think melee is game over?

Really that is your argument?

Oh, that's right.. I forget you're that guy who will argue blindly with anyone without listening to a single thing they say.. So you don't play a certain aspect of the game, yet know with a certainty how that aspect works out - enough to tell someone who does play that way that they are wrong? or are you calling me a liar?

Crit surge = 4051 magicka.. How much magicka does the average stam toon carry? 9-10 k? That's pretty damn close to half

You cannot fill a cup that is already full.

Vaoh · December 2016

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

1. If you actually played sorc you'd know you don't run out of stamina...
2. It is true you just slap on heavy and dark deal and sustain forever... it is not situational its super easy to pull of with no penalty for being interrupted..
3. I don't zerg... all game mechanics and skill is pointless in zergs anyway that is based off numbers and the numbersof ults people drop at once and irrelevant
4. Surge doesn't take half your magicka... do you even stam sorc? Stop exaggerating numbers and facts for the benefit of your 'point'.
5. Your entire pew pew bow argument is actually just stupid, no one 'pew pews', again zerging is pointless. Your numbers and guesses are completely off. How will you have half stamina before you have another dark deal? What are you casting with your pew pew? Injection doesn't cost much...

All i got from this is you don't or have little idea how to play stam sorc, your a zerger, you exaggerate things and think melee is game over?

Really that is your argument?

Oh, that's right.. I forget you're that guy who will argue blindly with anyone without listening to a single thing they say.. So you don't play a certain aspect of the game, yet know with a certainty how that aspect works out - enough to tell someone who does play that way that they are wrong? or are you calling me a liar?

Crit surge = 4051 magicka.. How much magicka does the average stam toon carry? 9-10 k? That's pretty damn close to half

You cannot fill a cup that is already full.

The average sorc would use tri food because dark deal, surge and streak? For an easy 14k with undaunted? There are build which use training and get 18k magicka? Considering half you post was how much magicka skills like surge and such take i'd expect you to use tri food.

I read everything you said, took not of the 'i haven't played my stam sorc for a while now'

And yes? Ask any anyone with even basic experience with a sorc you can throw on 5 heavy and not have sustain issues. Anyone who has even the minimum experience with a sorc can tell you that.

Am i calling you a liar? Yes i am. Your either lying or don't know how to play the class properly.

Redguard, heavy + dark deal? You said they would run out of stamina. That is obviously not true, again any half decent sorc can tell you this.

You say dark deal is situational? How so? It's got a short cast time with little risk of it being interrupted with no repercussions of it actually being interrupted. So again your either lying or you you don't know what your talking about.

You gave a zerg vs zerg scenario? Like really?

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

In what aspect will this nerf pve? DD sorc's? They have enough sustain from VO, repentance, shards etc..

Stam sorc tanks can just get a few more shards and even then how will a channel snare, a heal nerf which they'll have healers for, the fact magicka will be taken on cast and not at the end and around 20-25% stamina return nerf kill them off? 3 of those won't matter to a tank while the other will hardly effect them.

Also the buff templars and dk have is called major mending and crit surge more than makes up for stam sorc's lack of it.

Again this is about a sustain skill being overly strong compared to the rest. Which it is? Where are all the open world builds with 600 regen and 100% in dmg? Apart from stam sorc? Other aspects of other classes aren't relevant, vitality pots aren't relevant. The main reason why stamina is strong is because of it's proc sets such as viper/veli/selene or tremor as soona s they are nerfed stamina will be dragged down back towards magicka. The only thing thats needs adjusting are a few stamina specific skills or abilities, Dark deal is one of these.

Yes i agree heavy helps towards this but the skill itself is fundamentally overly strong.

An avergae medium build can sustain just fine with 2k~ regen. 4000 stamina per cast is still very relevant. Plus the fact skills will be cheaper so the 4000 per cast won't get eaten as quickly.

2000 regen every 2s. If a stam sorc casts 2x dark deals in that time thats 8k extra stam they wouldn't of got. Then if you add the regen tick they would get 5x as much stamina back in that time for a total of 10k. It adds on very nicely.

It'll supplement sustain and not be all the sustain.

Try playing a templar, nb or dk in open world in just 600 regen like stam sorc, both templar and nb will have major sustain issues and stam dk may hold up a bit better but will still have them quickly enough.

Vaoh · December 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

Stam Sorc is not good in vMA because of Dark Deal lol. They are good because of Critical Surge aka perma-Vigor for PvE. Hurricane also provides high AoE DPS along with 10% movement speed and high mitigation. Stacked with Vicious Ophidian, they are ideal for vMA.

Dark Deal is nice, but not needed especially in really high score runs. Surge is the key.

Bolt Escape has been nerfed multiple times AND bugged out significantly in being "balanced". I don't want Dark Deal becoming weak amd buggy especially when none of the QQers are smart enough to wait for many things that bring up Dark Deal to be nerfed first.

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

Stam Sorc is not good in vMA because of Dark Deal lol. They are good because of Critical Surge aka perma-Vigor for PvE. Hurricane also provides high AoE DPS along with 10% movement speed and high mitigation. Stacked with Vicious Ophidian, they are ideal for vMA.

Dark Deal is nice, but not needed especially in really high score runs. Surge is the key.

Bolt Escape has been nerfed multiple times AND bugged out significantly in being "balanced". I don't want Dark Deal becoming weak amd buggy especially when none of the QQers are smart enough to wait for many things that bring up Dark Deal to be nerfed first.

I don't talk about PvE at all, if DD isn't needed for it, than cool it can be nerfed without touching 'please remove pvp cause i want to play sims' people

Alpheu5 · December 2016

Did it ever dawn on you that maybe some Magicka Sorcerers use Dark Deal too? It's not exactly a forgiving skill for the next aisle down as it is, considering being bashed mid-cast means being obligated to break free and using up even more precious stamina, if you have any left by that point. For instance:

Enemy Attacks > Dodge Roll > Dark Deal > Bashed > Break Free > Rooted

Guess what? If you don't have Mist Form or Bolt Escape, you're a sitting duck. Alleged Godmode countered.

Fun Factoid: The cast is cancelled if the player falls and lands from such a height that causes them to roll or do a superhero landing before the cast is complete. It's super nifty when trying to Dark Deal on hilly or rocky terrain!

Biro123 · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You gave a zerg vs zerg scenario? Like really?

Are you going to tell me that this isn't how 80% of ppl PvP 80% of the time ? Are you basing your views purely on duelling?

If you READ the post, you may see that I'm not arguing for or against your view on dark deal. Just pointing out a few flaws with your one-dimensional view of the builds you say has none. Simply put, if you are not in melee, and not being attacked then you have very, very little sustain. I'm not telling you that you are wrong about it based on how you play (so why the hostility?)- but I am telling you that it doesn't translate that way to how I (and the majority of PvPers) play.

Tri-Pots? yeah, could use em. but guess what? not everyone has the cash/resources/ingredients to constantly chug crafted pots - not by a long way. I certainly don't.
Undaunted mettle? sorry man - I'm a PvPer, not a PvE er. I don't have this on any toon.
Trainee? yeah that's an option.. been thinking about it, to be honest (already use it on my magsorc). But would mean dropping viper or heavy armour which kind of messes up that type of build (not that I've put a lot of thought into it since I'm not really playing that class anymore since 1T).
BUT the standard black-rose/viper setup has 10k stam.

Would be nice if you could have a civil debate with someone rather than diving straight into insults and put-downs as soon as somebody either disagrees with you or points out a flaw in your argument.

Minalan · December 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@pieratsos
You don't play a DK, don't ever mention us in your argument again. Scales n talons do not hold your ground, sorry we stop being able to do that when dynamic ulti regen was gone but ofc you know that... oh wait.
Scales are still broken as it reflects damage but 2/10 times I'll receive the damage while reflecting it (happened today on my mag dk) so I just removed it off my bar entirely again. Talons is cool but that doesn't kill people so ofc I'm not gonna spam it consistently trying to pop my power lash.

Stam DK: These skills do not benefit us at all, the scales use to when we could reflect comets (including skorias) but nope we cannot anymore. Only skills useful imo in PvP for a stam DK are. Igneous shield, Corrosive armor, and Fossilize; I would say noxious breath but the debuff doesn't apply all the time + it literally misses the target when it's right in front of them.

You can block ice comets and take no damage. You can reflect overload, force pulse, crystal fragments, and destructive reach.

I think the reflect issues are a graphical desync. The wing animation plays out after the incoming projectile is already is recorded by the server as a direct hit.

Neophyte · December 2016

See if you think dark deal is so good why don't you run a Stam sorc? Or do Stam sorcs need nerfed to make it easy for the for people who can't manage to kill them

Vaoh · December 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

Stam Sorc is not good in vMA because of Dark Deal lol. They are good because of Critical Surge aka perma-Vigor for PvE. Hurricane also provides high AoE DPS along with 10% movement speed and high mitigation. Stacked with Vicious Ophidian, they are ideal for vMA.

Dark Deal is nice, but not needed especially in really high score runs. Surge is the key.

Bolt Escape has been nerfed multiple times AND bugged out significantly in being "balanced". I don't want Dark Deal becoming weak amd buggy especially when none of the QQers are smart enough to wait for many things that bring up Dark Deal to be nerfed first.

I don't talk about PvE at all, if DD isn't needed for it, than cool it can be nerfed without touching 'please remove pvp cause i want to play sims' people

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

1. If you actually played sorc you'd know you don't run out of stamina...
2. It is true you just slap on heavy and dark deal and sustain forever... it is not situational its super easy to pull of with no penalty for being interrupted..
3. I don't zerg... all game mechanics and skill is pointless in zergs anyway that is based off numbers and the numbersof ults people drop at once and irrelevant
4. Surge doesn't take half your magicka... do you even stam sorc? Stop exaggerating numbers and facts for the benefit of your 'point'.
5. Your entire pew pew bow argument is actually just stupid, no one 'pew pews', again zerging is pointless. Your numbers and guesses are completely off. How will you have half stamina before you have another dark deal? What are you casting with your pew pew? Injection doesn't cost much...

All i got from this is you don't or have little idea how to play stam sorc, your a zerger, you exaggerate things and think melee is game over?

Really that is your argument?

Oh, that's right.. I forget you're that guy who will argue blindly with anyone without listening to a single thing they say.. So you don't play a certain aspect of the game, yet know with a certainty how that aspect works out - enough to tell someone who does play that way that they are wrong? or are you calling me a liar?

Crit surge = 4051 magicka.. How much magicka does the average stam toon carry? 9-10 k? That's pretty damn close to half

You cannot fill a cup that is already full.

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

In what aspect will this nerf pve? DD sorc's? They have enough sustain from VO, repentance, shards etc..

Stam sorc tanks can just get a few more shards and even then how will a channel snare, a heal nerf which they'll have healers for, the fact magicka will be taken on cast and not at the end and around 20-25% stamina return nerf kill them off? 3 of those won't matter to a tank while the other will hardly effect them.

Also the buff templars and dk have is called major mending and crit surge more than makes up for stam sorc's lack of it.

Again this is about a sustain skill being overly strong compared to the rest. Which it is? Where are all the open world builds with 600 regen and 100% in dmg? Apart from stam sorc? Other aspects of other classes aren't relevant, vitality pots aren't relevant. The main reason why stamina is strong is because of it's proc sets such as viper/veli/selene or tremor as soona s they are nerfed stamina will be dragged down back towards magicka. The only thing thats needs adjusting are a few stamina specific skills or abilities, Dark deal is one of these.

Yes i agree heavy helps towards this but the skill itself is fundamentally overly strong.

An avergae medium build can sustain just fine with 2k~ regen. 4000 stamina per cast is still very relevant. Plus the fact skills will be cheaper so the 4000 per cast won't get eaten as quickly.

2000 regen every 2s. If a stam sorc casts 2x dark deals in that time thats 8k extra stam they wouldn't of got. Then if you add the regen tick they would get 5x as much stamina back in that time for a total of 10k. It adds on very nicely.

It'll supplement sustain and not be all the sustain.

Try playing a templar, nb or dk in open world in just 600 regen like stam sorc, both templar and nb will have major sustain issues and stam dk may hold up a bit better but will still have them quickly enough.

@leepalmer95 This is the type of crowd agreeing with you -_- almost incoherent dialogue with no meaning

Not every Stam Sorc in PvE has 561CP, a perfect group, runs the exact same 13 gold items in perfect traits with Pots that the pros do and knows every fine detail of the content they are running.

Dark Deal is not needed in PvE when you are running content in the most ideal possible conditions. That is a terrible justification for it not being needed in PvE. Ideal conditions are almost never the case. It is an important skill which can very easily be made weak and should not be messed up because of PvP QQ.

Also you are again side stepping the real issue. No Stamina build should be able to sustain with absolutely zero investment into Stamina Regeneration. Currently, wearing Heavy Armor+Black Rose let's you do just that while you stack full damage and cost reduction (with that totaly balanced 50% heavy attack resource return aka 200+ CPs worth of a restore bonus). Any Stamina build can do it. Stam Sorc is just the more "noob-friendly" Stamina class in resource management thanks to Dark Deal atm. Yes it overperforms, but this is not due to the skill itself. It is caused by the broken flat resource return you can get which lets you neglect investment into actual Stamina Regeneration.

As soon as the Stamina Regeneration is relevant again, Dark Deal QQ will dissipate entirely. It's unfortunate that a thread like this gained so much traction when you could've created a productive thread on the actual glaring issues ruining Cyrodiil.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You gave a zerg vs zerg scenario? Like really?

Are you going to tell me that this isn't how 80% of ppl PvP 80% of the time ? Are you basing your views purely on duelling?

If you READ the post, you may see that I'm not arguing for or against your view on dark deal. Just pointing out a few flaws with your one-dimensional view of the builds you say has none. Simply put, if you are not in melee, and not being attacked then you have very, very little sustain. I'm not telling you that you are wrong about it based on how you play (so why the hostility?)- but I am telling you that it doesn't translate that way to how I (and the majority of PvPers) play.

Tri-Pots? yeah, could use em. but guess what? not everyone has the cash/resources/ingredients to constantly chug crafted pots - not by a long way. I certainly don't.
Undaunted mettle? sorry man - I'm a PvPer, not a PvE er. I don't have this on any toon.
Trainee? yeah that's an option.. been thinking about it, to be honest (already use it on my magsorc). But would mean dropping viper or heavy armour which kind of messes up that type of build (not that I've put a lot of thought into it since I'm not really playing that class anymore since 1T).
BUT the standard black-rose/viper setup has 10k stam.

Would be nice if you could have a civil debate with someone rather than diving straight into insults and put-downs as soon as somebody either disagrees with you or points out a flaw in your argument.

Again any talk of balance or skills is irrelevant in a zerg vs zerg scenario and even then you will not run out of stamina in a zerg vs zerg. Because believe it or not you will get hit. Unless your just sitting at the back spamming snipe or something.

Tri pots are very easy to get now days, they are very cheap. If you don't use them thats your choice but the majority of serious pvp'ers use them.

The undaunted isn't that important as it's only 6% but it helps.

Believe it or not it's possible to pvp with proc sets, try it sometime?

The standard set up uses tri food, the set up is actually irrelevant... people use tri food -_- which is 13k magicka min.

The reason i'm hostile is because i don't like people exaggerating things or just making statements that are just lies because in order to keep the actual discussion on track i've got to respond.

And no it's not just in a dueling, it's dueling, 1v1, 1vX, 2vX small group etc... and even in a zerg vs zerg you will sustain..

Valencer · December 2016

What this skill needs is a slightly longer channel so you can interrupt it more reliably. It should also drain your magicka when the channel starts, not after it ends, so there's an actual penalty for getting interrupted.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Kingbawsack wrote: »

See if you think dark deal is so good why don't you run a Stam sorc? Or do Stam sorcs need nerfed to make it easy for the for people who can't manage to kill them

I have a stam sorc...? I've ran a stam sorc a lot?

I've also have every other class and can see the plain imbalance? Like can you even read?

Apherius · December 2016

Brrrofski wrote: »

I'm confused why this is a PvP vs PvE issue?

Who's using dark deal in PvE? You don't even have to sustain in PvE... Only a sorc tank would use it.

me ( magicka sorcerer ) . on my overload bar , between 2 fight i activate the overload bar and spam dark deal . it's very useful to be full mana before a fight .
and it's very useful on Vma .

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Apherius wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

I'm confused why this is a PvP vs PvE issue?

Who's using dark deal in PvE? You don't even have to sustain in PvE... Only a sorc tank would use it.

me . on my overload bar , between 2 fight i activate the overload bar and spam dark deal .

On what a stam or mag sorc?

And why? On a magicka class you can sustain just as easily and you can stamina you don't actually need dark deal..

Neophyte · December 2016

Yes I can read. If you think it's too good why are you moaning about it and just play with your Stam sorc

Apherius · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

I'm confused why this is a PvP vs PvE issue?

Who's using dark deal in PvE? You don't even have to sustain in PvE... Only a sorc tank would use it.

me . on my overload bar , between 2 fight i activate the overload bar and spam dark deal .

On what a stam or mag sorc?

And why? On a magicka class you can sustain just as easily and you can stamina you don't actually need dark deal..

i edit my message . i'm a magicka sorc , and i use him in Vma and dungeon between 2 fight ( i never use him during a fight because the heal have the elemental drain and bolobols ... but between 2 fight i don't have anything except my low magicka recorvery ) .
i don't see the problem ... the skill don't take any spot on my bar because he is on my overload bar that i use only for dark deal and the TP for activate the next arena on Vdsa

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

Stam Sorc is not good in vMA because of Dark Deal lol. They are good because of Critical Surge aka perma-Vigor for PvE. Hurricane also provides high AoE DPS along with 10% movement speed and high mitigation. Stacked with Vicious Ophidian, they are ideal for vMA.

Dark Deal is nice, but not needed especially in really high score runs. Surge is the key.

Bolt Escape has been nerfed multiple times AND bugged out significantly in being "balanced". I don't want Dark Deal becoming weak amd buggy especially when none of the QQers are smart enough to wait for many things that bring up Dark Deal to be nerfed first.

I don't talk about PvE at all, if DD isn't needed for it, than cool it can be nerfed without touching 'please remove pvp cause i want to play sims' people

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

1. If you actually played sorc you'd know you don't run out of stamina...
2. It is true you just slap on heavy and dark deal and sustain forever... it is not situational its super easy to pull of with no penalty for being interrupted..
3. I don't zerg... all game mechanics and skill is pointless in zergs anyway that is based off numbers and the numbersof ults people drop at once and irrelevant
4. Surge doesn't take half your magicka... do you even stam sorc? Stop exaggerating numbers and facts for the benefit of your 'point'.
5. Your entire pew pew bow argument is actually just stupid, no one 'pew pews', again zerging is pointless. Your numbers and guesses are completely off. How will you have half stamina before you have another dark deal? What are you casting with your pew pew? Injection doesn't cost much...

All i got from this is you don't or have little idea how to play stam sorc, your a zerger, you exaggerate things and think melee is game over?

Really that is your argument?

Oh, that's right.. I forget you're that guy who will argue blindly with anyone without listening to a single thing they say.. So you don't play a certain aspect of the game, yet know with a certainty how that aspect works out - enough to tell someone who does play that way that they are wrong? or are you calling me a liar?

Crit surge = 4051 magicka.. How much magicka does the average stam toon carry? 9-10 k? That's pretty damn close to half

You cannot fill a cup that is already full.

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

In what aspect will this nerf pve? DD sorc's? They have enough sustain from VO, repentance, shards etc..

Stam sorc tanks can just get a few more shards and even then how will a channel snare, a heal nerf which they'll have healers for, the fact magicka will be taken on cast and not at the end and around 20-25% stamina return nerf kill them off? 3 of those won't matter to a tank while the other will hardly effect them.

Also the buff templars and dk have is called major mending and crit surge more than makes up for stam sorc's lack of it.

Again this is about a sustain skill being overly strong compared to the rest. Which it is? Where are all the open world builds with 600 regen and 100% in dmg? Apart from stam sorc? Other aspects of other classes aren't relevant, vitality pots aren't relevant. The main reason why stamina is strong is because of it's proc sets such as viper/veli/selene or tremor as soona s they are nerfed stamina will be dragged down back towards magicka. The only thing thats needs adjusting are a few stamina specific skills or abilities, Dark deal is one of these.

Yes i agree heavy helps towards this but the skill itself is fundamentally overly strong.

An avergae medium build can sustain just fine with 2k~ regen. 4000 stamina per cast is still very relevant. Plus the fact skills will be cheaper so the 4000 per cast won't get eaten as quickly.

2000 regen every 2s. If a stam sorc casts 2x dark deals in that time thats 8k extra stam they wouldn't of got. Then if you add the regen tick they would get 5x as much stamina back in that time for a total of 10k. It adds on very nicely.

It'll supplement sustain and not be all the sustain.

Try playing a templar, nb or dk in open world in just 600 regen like stam sorc, both templar and nb will have major sustain issues and stam dk may hold up a bit better but will still have them quickly enough.

@leepalmer95 This is the type of crowd agreeing with you -_- almost incoherent dialogue with no meaning

Not every Stam Sorc in PvE has 561CP, a perfect group, runs the exact same 13 gold items in perfect traits with Pots that the pros do and knows every fine detail of the content they are running.

Dark Deal is not needed in PvE when you are running content in the most ideal possible conditions. That is a terrible justification for it not being needed in PvE. Ideal conditions are almost never the case. It is an important skill which can very easily be made weak and should not be messed up because of PvP QQ.

Also you are again side stepping the real issue. No Stamina build should be able to sustain with absolutely zero investment into Stamina Regeneration. Currently, wearing Heavy Armor+Black Rose let's you do just that while you stack full damage and cost reduction (with that totaly balanced 50% heavy attack resource return aka 200+ CPs worth of a restore bonus). Any Stamina build can do it. Stam Sorc is just the more "noob-friendly" Stamina class in resource management thanks to Dark Deal atm. Yes it overperforms, but this is not due to the skill itself. It is caused by the broken flat resource return you can get which lets you neglect investment into actual Stamina Regeneration.

As soon as the Stamina Regeneration is relevant again, Dark Deal QQ will dissipate entirely. It's unfortunate that a thread like this gained so much traction when you could've created a productive thread on the actual glaring issues ruining Cyrodiil.

Gl with making a thread like that, look at this thread and all the 1 class meta forum warriors I've managed to bring out.

This was 1 skill, i'm not even asking for a nerf to make it useless either. I've given viable nerf's which won't kill the skill off. Yet so many people have commented, most don'y play stam sorc, some actually have no idea what their talking about, some just make things up.

There is only a few people who actually have a discussion with relevant and actual facts and numbers.

Gl trying this with all the numerous issues pvp has, most of which were from previous patches and ignored. 80% of the responses will be either l2p or one of those well thought out 'shall we all be naked and punch each other' comments.

None of which actually help the discussion.

Vaoh · December 2016

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Did it ever dawn on you that maybe some Magicka Sorcerers use Dark Deal too? It's not exactly a forgiving skill for the next aisle down as it is, considering being bashed mid-cast means being obligated to break free and using up even more precious stamina, if you have any left by that point. For instance:

Enemy Attacks > Dodge Roll > Dark Deal > Bashed > Break Free > Rooted

Guess what? If you don't have Mist Form or Bolt Escape, you're a sitting duck. Alleged Godmode countered.

Fun Factoid: The cast is cancelled if the player falls and lands from such a height that causes them to roll or do a superhero landing before the cast is complete. It's super nifty when trying to Dark Deal on hilly or rocky terrain!

Yep - what you say is logical.

The OP simply can't really understand any logic besides what he fabricated in his own mind or what he carries on from others right now.

In fact, most of the forum PvP community these days has gone braindead unfortunateIy. Cyrodiil has been a mess for so long they've forgotten what most of the real issues are

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Apherius wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

I'm confused why this is a PvP vs PvE issue?

Who's using dark deal in PvE? You don't even have to sustain in PvE... Only a sorc tank would use it.

me . on my overload bar , between 2 fight i activate the overload bar and spam dark deal .

On what a stam or mag sorc?

And why? On a magicka class you can sustain just as easily and you can stamina you don't actually need dark deal..

i edit my message . i'm a magicka sorc , and i use him in Vma and dungeon between 2 fight ( i never use him during a fight because the heal have the elemental drain and bolobols ... but between 2 fight i don't have anything except my low magicka recorvery ) .
i don't see the problem ... the skill don't take any spot on my bar because he is on my overload bar that i use only for dark deal and the TP for activate the next arena on Vdsa

And how will my proposed changes affect you at all? Btw your using the other morph to what this thread is about.

Interrupt penalty, channel snare, heal reduction and a 20-25% stamina or in your case magicka reduction won't affect you at all.

Also magicka sorc is your only class, so of course you think it's ok, this is also about the skill in pvp not pve.

Izaki · December 2016

All the mad stam sorcs in this thread xD.

I play a stam sorc too and yeah Dark Deal is really strong, borderline OP, but the real problem is Shuffle lasting 23 seconds. It should have to be recast every time it procs the dodge. Problems solved, balance not achieved

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Did it ever dawn on you that maybe some Magicka Sorcerers use Dark Deal too? It's not exactly a forgiving skill for the next aisle down as it is, considering being bashed mid-cast means being obligated to break free and using up even more precious stamina, if you have any left by that point. For instance:

Enemy Attacks > Dodge Roll > Dark Deal > Bashed > Break Free > Rooted

Guess what? If you don't have Mist Form or Bolt Escape, you're a sitting duck. Alleged Godmode countered.

Fun Factoid: The cast is cancelled if the player falls and lands from such a height that causes them to roll or do a superhero landing before the cast is complete. It's super nifty when trying to Dark Deal on hilly or rocky terrain!

Yep - what you say is logical.

The OP simply can't really understand any logic besides what he fabricated in his own mind or what he carries on from others right now.

In fact, most of the forum PvP community these days has gone braindead unfortunateIy. Cyrodiil has been a mess for so long they've forgotten what most of the real issues are

So a magicka sorc uses dark deal to get stamina? Not sure why... but ok.

First mistake is roll dodging..

Second is not having streak...

And what your bashes you break free and can continue to spam dark deal all you want? Infact on a mag sorc you get free cc immunity and then can streak 2 times easy and then get a few risk free casts in.

I just didn't think i need to spell out obvious things?

Vaoh · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

Stam Sorc is not good in vMA because of Dark Deal lol. They are good because of Critical Surge aka perma-Vigor for PvE. Hurricane also provides high AoE DPS along with 10% movement speed and high mitigation. Stacked with Vicious Ophidian, they are ideal for vMA.

Dark Deal is nice, but not needed especially in really high score runs. Surge is the key.

Bolt Escape has been nerfed multiple times AND bugged out significantly in being "balanced". I don't want Dark Deal becoming weak amd buggy especially when none of the QQers are smart enough to wait for many things that bring up Dark Deal to be nerfed first.

I don't talk about PvE at all, if DD isn't needed for it, than cool it can be nerfed without touching 'please remove pvp cause i want to play sims' people

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

1. If you actually played sorc you'd know you don't run out of stamina...
2. It is true you just slap on heavy and dark deal and sustain forever... it is not situational its super easy to pull of with no penalty for being interrupted..
3. I don't zerg... all game mechanics and skill is pointless in zergs anyway that is based off numbers and the numbersof ults people drop at once and irrelevant
4. Surge doesn't take half your magicka... do you even stam sorc? Stop exaggerating numbers and facts for the benefit of your 'point'.
5. Your entire pew pew bow argument is actually just stupid, no one 'pew pews', again zerging is pointless. Your numbers and guesses are completely off. How will you have half stamina before you have another dark deal? What are you casting with your pew pew? Injection doesn't cost much...

All i got from this is you don't or have little idea how to play stam sorc, your a zerger, you exaggerate things and think melee is game over?

Really that is your argument?

Oh, that's right.. I forget you're that guy who will argue blindly with anyone without listening to a single thing they say.. So you don't play a certain aspect of the game, yet know with a certainty how that aspect works out - enough to tell someone who does play that way that they are wrong? or are you calling me a liar?

Crit surge = 4051 magicka.. How much magicka does the average stam toon carry? 9-10 k? That's pretty damn close to half

You cannot fill a cup that is already full.

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

In what aspect will this nerf pve? DD sorc's? They have enough sustain from VO, repentance, shards etc..

Stam sorc tanks can just get a few more shards and even then how will a channel snare, a heal nerf which they'll have healers for, the fact magicka will be taken on cast and not at the end and around 20-25% stamina return nerf kill them off? 3 of those won't matter to a tank while the other will hardly effect them.

Also the buff templars and dk have is called major mending and crit surge more than makes up for stam sorc's lack of it.

Again this is about a sustain skill being overly strong compared to the rest. Which it is? Where are all the open world builds with 600 regen and 100% in dmg? Apart from stam sorc? Other aspects of other classes aren't relevant, vitality pots aren't relevant. The main reason why stamina is strong is because of it's proc sets such as viper/veli/selene or tremor as soona s they are nerfed stamina will be dragged down back towards magicka. The only thing thats needs adjusting are a few stamina specific skills or abilities, Dark deal is one of these.

Yes i agree heavy helps towards this but the skill itself is fundamentally overly strong.

An avergae medium build can sustain just fine with 2k~ regen. 4000 stamina per cast is still very relevant. Plus the fact skills will be cheaper so the 4000 per cast won't get eaten as quickly.

2000 regen every 2s. If a stam sorc casts 2x dark deals in that time thats 8k extra stam they wouldn't of got. Then if you add the regen tick they would get 5x as much stamina back in that time for a total of 10k. It adds on very nicely.

It'll supplement sustain and not be all the sustain.

Try playing a templar, nb or dk in open world in just 600 regen like stam sorc, both templar and nb will have major sustain issues and stam dk may hold up a bit better but will still have them quickly enough.

@leepalmer95 This is the type of crowd agreeing with you -_- almost incoherent dialogue with no meaning

Not every Stam Sorc in PvE has 561CP, a perfect group, runs the exact same 13 gold items in perfect traits with Pots that the pros do and knows every fine detail of the content they are running.

Dark Deal is not needed in PvE when you are running content in the most ideal possible conditions. That is a terrible justification for it not being needed in PvE. Ideal conditions are almost never the case. It is an important skill which can very easily be made weak and should not be messed up because of PvP QQ.

Also you are again side stepping the real issue. No Stamina build should be able to sustain with absolutely zero investment into Stamina Regeneration. Currently, wearing Heavy Armor+Black Rose let's you do just that while you stack full damage and cost reduction (with that totaly balanced 50% heavy attack resource return aka 200+ CPs worth of a restore bonus). Any Stamina build can do it. Stam Sorc is just the more "noob-friendly" Stamina class in resource management thanks to Dark Deal atm. Yes it overperforms, but this is not due to the skill itself. It is caused by the broken flat resource return you can get which lets you neglect investment into actual Stamina Regeneration.

As soon as the Stamina Regeneration is relevant again, Dark Deal QQ will dissipate entirely. It's unfortunate that a thread like this gained so much traction when you could've created a productive thread on the actual glaring issues ruining Cyrodiil.

Gl with making a thread like that, look at this thread and all the 1 class meta forum warriors I've managed to bring out.

This was 1 skill, i'm not even asking for a nerf to make it useless either. I've given viable nerf's which won't kill the skill off. Yet so many people have commented, most don'y play stam sorc, some actually have no idea what their talking about, some just make things up.

There is only a few people who actually have a discussion with relevant and actual facts and numbers.

Gl trying this with all the numerous issues pvp has, most of which were from previous patches and ignored. 80% of the responses will be either l2p or one of those well thought out 'shall we all be naked and punch each other' comments.

None of which actually help the discussion.

Yes but is it better to push for a stupid nerf?

Do you honestly think a nerf would equal a 10% Stam return decrease or something else minor? It never does.

Nerfing Dark Deal (in ZOS terms) looks something like:
• You can no longer be interrupted when channelling this skill or its morphs
• Increased the cost of this skill and its morphs by 25%
• Reduced that Healh Return by 50% and Resource return by 40% from this skill and its morphs
• You take 15% increased damage and no longer regenerate Magicka when casting this skill or its morphs

A farcry from a minor change. This is a small change compared to what they've done to many skills/sets in the past as well.

Bandit1215 · December 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Skills like Dark Deal and Siphoning attacks make resource management just disappear. EVEN MORE so on Azura star as those skills do not get any penalty whatsoever.

Why bother investing into recovery if Darkdeal gives yo 5k stam AND 8k healing ticks. At this point it is even better to use a magicka pot so you can use more darkdeals instead of a stamina pot

I actually use magicka, health, immovable pots for this very reason

olsborg · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Reduce the stamina return by 25% and the heal by half.

The heal is fine, imo, but the stamina return is a tad too much atm.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Add the snare when cast

I wouldnt be oposed to this, atleast some snare would be in its place.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If a dark deal is bashed then the magicka should be taken away and not returned. Seem stupid that someone bashes them and the sorc can just break free and go right back too spamming dark deal.

I completely agree with this point. This should have been in from the beginning...for all spells that are interrupted.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

Stam Sorc is not good in vMA because of Dark Deal lol. They are good because of Critical Surge aka perma-Vigor for PvE. Hurricane also provides high AoE DPS along with 10% movement speed and high mitigation. Stacked with Vicious Ophidian, they are ideal for vMA.

Dark Deal is nice, but not needed especially in really high score runs. Surge is the key.

Bolt Escape has been nerfed multiple times AND bugged out significantly in being "balanced". I don't want Dark Deal becoming weak amd buggy especially when none of the QQers are smart enough to wait for many things that bring up Dark Deal to be nerfed first.

I don't talk about PvE at all, if DD isn't needed for it, than cool it can be nerfed without touching 'please remove pvp cause i want to play sims' people

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

1. If you actually played sorc you'd know you don't run out of stamina...
2. It is true you just slap on heavy and dark deal and sustain forever... it is not situational its super easy to pull of with no penalty for being interrupted..
3. I don't zerg... all game mechanics and skill is pointless in zergs anyway that is based off numbers and the numbersof ults people drop at once and irrelevant
4. Surge doesn't take half your magicka... do you even stam sorc? Stop exaggerating numbers and facts for the benefit of your 'point'.
5. Your entire pew pew bow argument is actually just stupid, no one 'pew pews', again zerging is pointless. Your numbers and guesses are completely off. How will you have half stamina before you have another dark deal? What are you casting with your pew pew? Injection doesn't cost much...

All i got from this is you don't or have little idea how to play stam sorc, your a zerger, you exaggerate things and think melee is game over?

Really that is your argument?

Oh, that's right.. I forget you're that guy who will argue blindly with anyone without listening to a single thing they say.. So you don't play a certain aspect of the game, yet know with a certainty how that aspect works out - enough to tell someone who does play that way that they are wrong? or are you calling me a liar?

Crit surge = 4051 magicka.. How much magicka does the average stam toon carry? 9-10 k? That's pretty damn close to half

You cannot fill a cup that is already full.

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

In what aspect will this nerf pve? DD sorc's? They have enough sustain from VO, repentance, shards etc..

Stam sorc tanks can just get a few more shards and even then how will a channel snare, a heal nerf which they'll have healers for, the fact magicka will be taken on cast and not at the end and around 20-25% stamina return nerf kill them off? 3 of those won't matter to a tank while the other will hardly effect them.

Also the buff templars and dk have is called major mending and crit surge more than makes up for stam sorc's lack of it.

Again this is about a sustain skill being overly strong compared to the rest. Which it is? Where are all the open world builds with 600 regen and 100% in dmg? Apart from stam sorc? Other aspects of other classes aren't relevant, vitality pots aren't relevant. The main reason why stamina is strong is because of it's proc sets such as viper/veli/selene or tremor as soona s they are nerfed stamina will be dragged down back towards magicka. The only thing thats needs adjusting are a few stamina specific skills or abilities, Dark deal is one of these.

Yes i agree heavy helps towards this but the skill itself is fundamentally overly strong.

An avergae medium build can sustain just fine with 2k~ regen. 4000 stamina per cast is still very relevant. Plus the fact skills will be cheaper so the 4000 per cast won't get eaten as quickly.

2000 regen every 2s. If a stam sorc casts 2x dark deals in that time thats 8k extra stam they wouldn't of got. Then if you add the regen tick they would get 5x as much stamina back in that time for a total of 10k. It adds on very nicely.

It'll supplement sustain and not be all the sustain.

Try playing a templar, nb or dk in open world in just 600 regen like stam sorc, both templar and nb will have major sustain issues and stam dk may hold up a bit better but will still have them quickly enough.

@leepalmer95 This is the type of crowd agreeing with you -_- almost incoherent dialogue with no meaning

Not every Stam Sorc in PvE has 561CP, a perfect group, runs the exact same 13 gold items in perfect traits with Pots that the pros do and knows every fine detail of the content they are running.

Dark Deal is not needed in PvE when you are running content in the most ideal possible conditions. That is a terrible justification for it not being needed in PvE. Ideal conditions are almost never the case. It is an important skill which can very easily be made weak and should not be messed up because of PvP QQ.

Also you are again side stepping the real issue. No Stamina build should be able to sustain with absolutely zero investment into Stamina Regeneration. Currently, wearing Heavy Armor+Black Rose let's you do just that while you stack full damage and cost reduction (with that totaly balanced 50% heavy attack resource return aka 200+ CPs worth of a restore bonus). Any Stamina build can do it. Stam Sorc is just the more "noob-friendly" Stamina class in resource management thanks to Dark Deal atm. Yes it overperforms, but this is not due to the skill itself. It is caused by the broken flat resource return you can get which lets you neglect investment into actual Stamina Regeneration.

As soon as the Stamina Regeneration is relevant again, Dark Deal QQ will dissipate entirely. It's unfortunate that a thread like this gained so much traction when you could've created a productive thread on the actual glaring issues ruining Cyrodiil.

Gl with making a thread like that, look at this thread and all the 1 class meta forum warriors I've managed to bring out.

This was 1 skill, i'm not even asking for a nerf to make it useless either. I've given viable nerf's which won't kill the skill off. Yet so many people have commented, most don'y play stam sorc, some actually have no idea what their talking about, some just make things up.

There is only a few people who actually have a discussion with relevant and actual facts and numbers.

Gl trying this with all the numerous issues pvp has, most of which were from previous patches and ignored. 80% of the responses will be either l2p or one of those well thought out 'shall we all be naked and punch each other' comments.

None of which actually help the discussion.

Yes but is it better to push for a stupid nerf?

Do you honestly think a nerf would equal a 10% Stam return decrease or something else minor? It never does.

Nerfing Dark Deal (in ZOS terms) looks something like:
• You can no longer be interrupted when channelling this skill or its morphs
• Increased the cost of this skill and its morphs by 25%
• Reduced that Healh Return by 50% and Resource return by 40% from this skill and its morphs
• You take 15% increased damage and no longer regenerate Magicka when casting this skill or its morphs

A farcry from a minor change. This is a small change compared to what they've done to many skills/sets in the past as well.

Well maybe if the 1 class wonder forum warriors would just accept what they know is true maybe a lot of people could come to an agreement on small nerfs or balance changes.

Instead most balance thread are spammed with useless comments, insults, exaggeration, wrong facts, 1 word answers or sarcastic 1 liners.

If you cut out all of that out of this thread this thread would be 2-3 pages long because thats the only discussion that actually happened.

When you get a lot of experiences players say it's op, when people present fact it's op and offer fair balances. When you get stam sorc mains say it's op and yet you get mostly people who have no idea stat flaming and spamming threads then no wonder zos either don't listen or over nerf things.

thankyourat · December 2016

Open world PvP it's op. good luck bashing it as a magicka player once the stam sorc starts line of sighting. It's too easy for a stam sorc to just go behind a tree and start dark dealing