Bryanonymous wrote: »

Work is the wrong word. You're suppose to earn achievement, not have it handed to you. Searching for deals on the items you need is as much about character progression as leveling up. They don't sell CP531 potions, and they don't have a global one stop shopping auction house. Players earn their status. It's done for stability, and also to keep a decent reward for those who play. Making the game easier diminishes the payoff, so earn your trade and reap the rewards.

Technically work is anything that requires effort, so yes it's absolutely the correct word to use, it just so happens that most work in life is tedious and not remotely fun, and as such the word has been given a negative connotation that is entirely separate from its actual definition.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

That's not an excuse to give anyone anything they want without working for it, if that's how games worked no one would play them. There needs to be a balance where you have to work an appropriate amount for the appropriate reward, and asking for too much without wanting to work for it is lazy and childish. Ideally any work we do in a game should be fun yes, doesn't mean it's not still work, a distinction you and many others fail to recognize.

I fully agree, there needs to be a balance between invested effort and reward.

However, simply declaring a standard auction house to have too little effort for too much reward doesn't make it so. Underlining this non argument with an ad hominem attack by insinuating everyone who supports it just "wants everything on a silver platter" is really just bad style. It doesn't make your non argument better. It just reveals your lack of actual argument.

Voted to keep it, just look what happened to the auction house in World of Warcraft when they made it universal. It completely killed every single market in the game.

The only thing I would really like to see is some improvements to the way searching the guild stores are done. If you search for a "ring of agility", I find it so tedious to go through 18+ pages to find the one on page 19 when 14 of those 18 pages are empty...just show me the damn ring I searched for not empty pages.

xaan wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

That's not an excuse to give anyone anything they want without working for it, if that's how games worked no one would play them. There needs to be a balance where you have to work an appropriate amount for the appropriate reward, and asking for too much without wanting to work for it is lazy and childish. Ideally any work we do in a game should be fun yes, doesn't mean it's not still work, a distinction you and many others fail to recognize.

I fully agree, there needs to be a balance between invested effort and reward.

However, simply declaring a standard auction house to have too little effort for too much reward doesn't make it so. Underlining this non argument with an ad hominem attack by insinuating everyone who supports it just "wants everything on a silver platter" is really just bad style. It doesn't make your non argument better. It just reveals your lack of actual argument.

Except that's exactly what has happened in other games, Auction Houses do trivialize the acquisition of loot and make it easier to find anything you want there than getting it to drop yourself, that is simply a fact. In order for ZOS to stop that from happening they'd basically have to interfere with the system somehow, and I can't imagine any better way for them to do that than by implementing the system they have now.

The current system is specifically designed to make it more difficult to find what you want at a consistent price. It's frankly brilliant, you decentralize everything so you aren't guaranteed to find what you want in any one place, and the price variations mean that even if prices are expensive in some places they're cheaper somewhere else, leading to great deals being found if you're patient enough.

When the complaint that people make is that it's too hard to find what they want, they're complaining about the exact thing this system was designed to do, it's like complaining that a car drives fast or that airplanes fly. And yes, when someone complains to me that they want to get everything they desire without putting in any effort, which is exactly what pretty much everyone opposed to this system is saying in almost those exact words, that's laziness pure and simple.

You don't have to like it, doesn't mean it's not true. I get that most people don't like searching all the traders, but I for one find it to be something of an adventure, seeing all the different things for different prices being sold at various places, and when I finally find that great deal it's an enormous sense of victory.

Anyone saying that they can't be bothered with such an easy (albeit somewhat time-consuming and not the most fun) task is saying that they're lazy, that's what lazy means, being unwilling to put in the appropriate effort, and if anything it's still too easy to find too many great things for sale with this system, and the acquisition of loot is therefore trivialized compared to no trading at all.

The easier it becomes to trade with more people, the worse the trivializing gets, and as such an AH is guaranteed to make it worse, it's common sense and if you can't see that then I can't help you.

tryia3b14a_ESO wrote: »

xaan wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Sorry, but they didn't have iPads and Google in Tamriel.

They have mounts that instantly pop up from nowhere, they have bags that let you carry hundreds of pounds of armor and weapons without hindering you in a fight, they have fancy crafting bags that soak up tonnes of metal and wood and herbs and food ingredients (which never rot), they have people that never have to sleep or use the toilet, they have a mysterious crown store....

Sorry, my willing suspension of disbelief is already damaged beyond repair. Lore is not an argument that can be applied selectively when it fits ones own opinion, then disregarded in other cases.

Yes, thank you! I just don't understand how so many people use the "it breaks my immersion" argument against a central auction house when there are things like immortal guards running around.

If anything guild traders break my immersion. I should be able to walk up to one and be like, "Hey, you have any recipes for Gods-Blind-Me? No? Well, you know anyone who might?" Without having to click every trader individually and scroll through hundreds of non sorted items that only exist as words in an inventory screen and have no actual in game presence, so I can't even see them. I honestly feel so blind trying to find a specific item from traders.

A real trader would be yelling at me as I walked by, "Recipes! Gods-Blind-Me! Sweet rolls! Crafting materials for sale! Rare, purple Willpower Lightning Staff, one-of-a-kind!" As he or she motions towards a clearly visible and tangible stock. It wouldn't be my responsibility to find out what they have. They would want me to know in any way possible.

Finding specific items in this game is so frustratingly hard. I mean, just look at the amount of people in just this thread alone saying how they've given up trying to find items using the current trader system.

So if I kill someone in real life then I'm just allowed to kill as many people as I want after that, because what's the harm right? I already killed one person, what's the difference between that and killing a hundred or a thousand more?

And in case the sarcasm wasn't clear enough, you and everyone making this point are spouting gibberish. Every single thing that breaks immersion is a serious problem, and the more things there are, the worse the problem becomes. Having other things that break immersion doesn't even come close to justifying the addition of yet more things that break immersion, that is a logical fallacy.

If anything all the things that break immersion now are things that should be fixed such that they don't, and anyone suggesting otherwise doesn't have a clue about how to create a proper video game.

no. the casuals hav the same ressources as all others, join a trading guild and be done

if you feel like you are too good to join a guild. dont play a MMO

tryia3b14a_ESO wrote: »

I spent two hours looking for a recipe for Gods-Blind-Me for my provisioning writ. (...) The feeling I had when I logged off was of disappointment and unfulfillment. I did not log on the next day.

Really dude? REALLY?

You are telling us that you log out disappointed and unfulfilled because you couln'd find one recipe? And didn't log in the next day because of this very same reason?

Are we even playing the same game? This is Elder Scrolls online forum right? Or I perharps I joined Hello Kitty Online by accident?

laksikus wrote: »

no. the casuals hav the same ressources as all others, join a trading guild and be done

if you feel like you are too good to join a guild. dont play a MMO

Due to my current real life situation, I literally cannot meet the requirements that large trading guilds have. Like trading a certain amount of items per week or not being logged out for 7 consecutive days.

I sometimes go months without playing when things get really crazy, so I often come back to find that I've been removed from whatever guild I happened to join this time. That's life as a casual player.

Let the PC players keep it and give console a new one.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Except that's exactly what has happened in other games, Auction Houses do trivialize the acquisition of loot and make it easier to find anything you want there than getting it to drop yourself, that is simply a fact. In order for ZOS to stop that from happening they'd basically have to interfere with the system somehow, and I can't imagine any better way for them to do that than by implementing the system they have now. [...]

(sorry if i don't quote the entire post)

I would say that this is the entire point of a trading system. One player puts in the effort of getting an item. Another player pays him in ingame currency - but really, getting that ingame currency also represents some form of effort in itself.

Now if buying an item requires additional effort in the form of first having to find a kiosk that has it available - without knowing wether it actually IS available answhere, then the equation becomes skewed and the entire purpose of trading is in question. If potential buyers forgo even looking at the kiosks because they have no desire to spend time looking for something that might not even be there, then nobody wins. Not the seller, not the potential buyer.

Yes, there are auction houses that have hurt games. Notably: Diablo 3. There are also games with auction houses that haven't suffered in the slightest from having them. Notably Eve Online. A game that is absolutely centered around player crafting and trade. And yet it's auction house has not only not destroyed that trade - it has even made it better by inserting the ability to not only buy and sell finished items but also bid on contracts. Basically everything in reverse. Instead of the crafter putting something for sale, the player looking for something will place a contract to find a crafter who can deliver it. Pure genious if you ask me.

An auction house in itself is not automatically doomed to hurt the game it is in. It just has to be done right.

xaan wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Except that's exactly what has happened in other games, Auction Houses do trivialize the acquisition of loot and make it easier to find anything you want there than getting it to drop yourself, that is simply a fact. In order for ZOS to stop that from happening they'd basically have to interfere with the system somehow, and I can't imagine any better way for them to do that than by implementing the system they have now. [...]

(sorry if i don't quote the entire post)

I would say that this is the entire point of a trading system. One player puts in the effort of getting an item. Another player pays him in ingame currency - but really, getting that ingame currency also represents some form of effort in itself.

Now if buying an item requires additional effort in the form of first having to find a kiosk that has it available - without knowing wether it actually IS available answhere, then the equation becomes skewed and the entire purpose of trading is in question. As the buyer i suddenly ask myself if it's really worth it to travel the kiosks. And that neither benefits buyers nor sellers.

Yes, there are auction houses that have hurt games. Notably: Diablo 3. There are also games with auction houses that haven't suffered in the slightest from having them. Notably Eve Online. A game that is absolutely centered around player crafting and trade. And yet it's auction house has not only not destroyed that trade - it has even made it better by inserting the ability to not only buy and sell finished items but also bid on contracts. Basically everything in reverse. Instead of the crafter putting something for sale, the player looking for something will place a contract to find a crafter who can deliver it. Pure genious if you ask me.

An auction house in itself is not automatically doomed to hurt the game it is in. It just has to be done right.

Gold is too easy to come by though, and also items sold are too cheap for the effort you'd normally have to put in by grinding it out yourself, so it doesn't really equal out to being an appropriate amount of effort, not even close.

Okay I skipped that last paragraph at first but just read it, and while that's certainly good for that game it's not for this one. Lore doesn't allow for any kind of centralized selling, there is no instantaneous travel or communication in Tamriel (Wayshrines utterly defy lore and didn't exist in any previous games, as such I'd frankly like them removed and would like this game more without them, despite the lack of convenience it would be more of an adventure IMO), and as such no centralized system could ever possibly be lore friendly (and violations of lore break immersion, so doubly bad).

Keep the system as it is. The already hundreds of thousands of golds guild have used to established a trader, should not be cast away for a centralized system. All that time and money- no way I could be for another system. And being in a guild that has fought for a guild trader, I can tell you that a new system would be a slap in the face.

tryia3b14a_ESO wrote: »

laksikus wrote: »

no. the casuals hav the same ressources as all others, join a trading guild and be done

if you feel like you are too good to join a guild. dont play a MMO

Due to my current real life situation, I literally cannot meet the requirements that large trading guilds have. Like trading a certain amount of items per week or not being logged out for 7 consecutive days.

I sometimes go months without playing when things get really crazy, so I often come back to find that I've been removed from whatever guild I happened to join this time. That's life as a casual player.

If what you say is true, I have to ask this and I am completely serious: why do you even play MMOs?

Honestly, you aren't even what I would consider a casual player, you're more like an occasional player. Occasional players and MMOs don't go together very well. MMOs by their very nature require some time investment to get anything done. They are designed to keep people interested in playing for months or even years which means you're generally not going to be able to progress at a quick pace compared to single player games. If you frequently go months without playing, you're always going to have problems getting things done in any MMO and it doesn't matter what kind of item exchange the game has.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

tryia3b14a_ESO wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

xaan wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

That's not an excuse to give anyone anything they want without working for it, if that's how games worked no one would play them. There needs to be a balance where you have to work an appropriate amount for the appropriate reward, and asking for too much without wanting to work for it is lazy and childish. Ideally any work we do in a game should be fun yes, doesn't mean it's not still work, a distinction you and many others fail to recognize.

I fully agree, there needs to be a balance between invested effort and reward.

However, simply declaring a standard auction house to have too little effort for too much reward doesn't make it so. Underlining this non argument with an ad hominem attack by insinuating everyone who supports it just "wants everything on a silver platter" is really just bad style. It doesn't make your non argument better. It just reveals your lack of actual argument.

Except that's exactly what has happened in other games, Auction Houses do trivialize the acquisition of loot and make it easier to find anything you want there then getting it to drop yourself, that is simply a fact. In order for ZOS to stop that from happening they'd basically have to interfere with the system somehow to stop it, and I can't imagine any better way for them to do that than by implementing the system they have now.

The current system is specifically designed to make it more difficult to find what you want at a consistent price. It's frankly brilliant, you decentralize everything so you aren't guaranteed to find what you want in any one place, and the price variations mean that even if prices are expensive in some places they're cheaper somewhere else, leading to great deals being found if you're patient enough.

When the complaint that people make is that it's too hard to find what they want, they're complaining about the exact thing this system was designed to do, it's like complaining that a car drives fast or that airplanes fly. And yes, when someone complains to me that they want to get everything they desire without putting in any effort, which is exactly what pretty much everyone opposed to this system is saying in almost those exact words, that's laziness pure and simple.

You don't have to like it, doesn't mean it's not true. I get that most people don't like searching all the traders, but I for one find it to be something of an adventure, seeing all the different things for different prices being sold at various places, and when I finally find that great deal it's an enormous sense of victory.

Anyone saying that they can't be bothered with such an easy (albeit somewhat time-consuming and not the most fun) task is saying that they're lazy, that's what lazy means, being unwilling to put in the appropriate effort, and if anything it's still too easy to find too many great things for sale with this system, and the acquisition of loot is therefore trivialized compared to no trading at all.

The easier it becomes to trade with more people, the worse the trivializing gets, and as such an AH is guaranteed to make it worse, it's common sense and if you can't see that then I can't help you.

I spent two hours looking for a recipe for Gods-Blind-Me for my provisioning writ. This is a recipe that sells for 20 gold sometimes. Other times, people throw it away, because it is common. That was all the play time I had that day. I fruitlessly searched for a recipe. The feeling I had when I logged off was of disappointment and unfulfillment. I did not log on the next day.

It is not acceptable, not fun, and not realistic that something that common and unvaluable be that difficult to find just because the system we have is so cumbersome and difficult to use.

You're also fooling yourself if you think that this system in any way keeps items rare. People can literally make some of the best items in the game through crafting. People who are in a large trading guild will have no problems finding items and resources.

This system only hinders the casual player.

That's an exception though, you're looking for something pretty much no one cares about, that's not the trading system's fault. The game needs to be designed such that those relatively worthless things can be obtained from places besides a trader.

Complaining about the traders not having it for sale is like complaining about a grocery store not having some bizarre foreign fruit that most people have never heard of, it's just not something you can reasonably expect to find because no one besides you wants it. It sucks sure, but it's not the store's fault for not selling something pretty much no one would ever buy.

No, it would be like me complaining that a resturant doesn't sell flour because they only sell fancy pre-made meals and flour is cheap, common, and worthless. Only in this world there is no grocery store for me to buy cheap, common stuff. That's a problem.

I used the recipe as an example because I assumed it would be a sought after item since the provisioning writ required it, but there are tons of other things I've searched for and been unable to find. Especially non level 50 equipment.

tryia3b14a_ESO wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

tryia3b14a_ESO wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

xaan wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

That's not an excuse to give anyone anything they want without working for it, if that's how games worked no one would play them. There needs to be a balance where you have to work an appropriate amount for the appropriate reward, and asking for too much without wanting to work for it is lazy and childish. Ideally any work we do in a game should be fun yes, doesn't mean it's not still work, a distinction you and many others fail to recognize.

I fully agree, there needs to be a balance between invested effort and reward.

However, simply declaring a standard auction house to have too little effort for too much reward doesn't make it so. Underlining this non argument with an ad hominem attack by insinuating everyone who supports it just "wants everything on a silver platter" is really just bad style. It doesn't make your non argument better. It just reveals your lack of actual argument.

Except that's exactly what has happened in other games, Auction Houses do trivialize the acquisition of loot and make it easier to find anything you want there then getting it to drop yourself, that is simply a fact. In order for ZOS to stop that from happening they'd basically have to interfere with the system somehow to stop it, and I can't imagine any better way for them to do that than by implementing the system they have now.

The current system is specifically designed to make it more difficult to find what you want at a consistent price. It's frankly brilliant, you decentralize everything so you aren't guaranteed to find what you want in any one place, and the price variations mean that even if prices are expensive in some places they're cheaper somewhere else, leading to great deals being found if you're patient enough.

When the complaint that people make is that it's too hard to find what they want, they're complaining about the exact thing this system was designed to do, it's like complaining that a car drives fast or that airplanes fly. And yes, when someone complains to me that they want to get everything they desire without putting in any effort, which is exactly what pretty much everyone opposed to this system is saying in almost those exact words, that's laziness pure and simple.

You don't have to like it, doesn't mean it's not true. I get that most people don't like searching all the traders, but I for one find it to be something of an adventure, seeing all the different things for different prices being sold at various places, and when I finally find that great deal it's an enormous sense of victory.

Anyone saying that they can't be bothered with such an easy (albeit somewhat time-consuming and not the most fun) task is saying that they're lazy, that's what lazy means, being unwilling to put in the appropriate effort, and if anything it's still too easy to find too many great things for sale with this system, and the acquisition of loot is therefore trivialized compared to no trading at all.

The easier it becomes to trade with more people, the worse the trivializing gets, and as such an AH is guaranteed to make it worse, it's common sense and if you can't see that then I can't help you.

I spent two hours looking for a recipe for Gods-Blind-Me for my provisioning writ. This is a recipe that sells for 20 gold sometimes. Other times, people throw it away, because it is common. That was all the play time I had that day. I fruitlessly searched for a recipe. The feeling I had when I logged off was of disappointment and unfulfillment. I did not log on the next day.

It is not acceptable, not fun, and not realistic that something that common and unvaluable be that difficult to find just because the system we have is so cumbersome and difficult to use.

You're also fooling yourself if you think that this system in any way keeps items rare. People can literally make some of the best items in the game through crafting. People who are in a large trading guild will have no problems finding items and resources.

This system only hinders the casual player.

That's an exception though, you're looking for something pretty much no one cares about, that's not the trading system's fault. The game needs to be designed such that those relatively worthless things can be obtained from places besides a trader.

Complaining about the traders not having it for sale is like complaining about a grocery store not having some bizarre foreign fruit that most people have never heard of, it's just not something you can reasonably expect to find because no one besides you wants it. It sucks sure, but it's not the store's fault for not selling something pretty much no one would ever buy.

No, it would be like me complaining that a resturant doesn't sell flour because they only sell fancy pre-made meals and flour is cheap, common, and worthless. Only in this world there is no grocery store for me to buy cheap, common stuff. That's a problem.

I used the recipe as an example because I assumed it would be a sought after item since the provisioning writ required it, but there are tons of other things I've searched for and been unable to find. Especially non level 50 equipment.

Wrong, that's just so completely wrong. Players only bother selling to other players things that they think will sell, just like stores in real life, and anything they don't think will sell is something they don't bother listing at all (unless they literally have nothing else to sell).

If everyone could sell an unlimited amount of items that would be different, but if you've got a choice to sell something worthless or something worth a lot you'd be a fool not to sell the latter, which is why most people just get rid of them.