Keep the current auction house or make a new one?

Hluill · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

The system sucks. If one can't find a "friendly" guild, it really sucks.

So, the arguments for Guild Traders:

Lore: I really don't understand this one. All the ***, lore-breaking things built into MMOs since UO and EQ, but "Guild Traders" are sacrosanct! Not even sure what the lore behind them is. Maybe it's in one of the books in one of the dungeons.

Underbidding: Guess what, there are just as many, maybe more, minus one prices on these guild traders as there is in global trading systems.

Sure, guild stores are kinda cute, in that quaint, rustic way. But they don't work. Too many players can't access goods because they've only opened up a few shrines, and too many players can't sell *** because they can't meet all the criteria for a trading guild.

This system is a hindrance on the game's in-game economy.

Lucius_Aelius · August 2016

Keep the current system.

Cheveyo wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

xaan wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Because established lore should never be broken (expanded upon yes, but not rewritten) and immersion should be maintained wherever possible as a rule, if you can't understand that then I'm done trying to explain because it couldn't be more clear or simple.

As interesting as it is to hear a game have centralized selling that doesn't suck, this system is almost perfect for this game, and with a few minor tweaks it could be even better. You have made your arguments for why you think an AH could work and I'd be lying if I said I knew for certain that it couldn't, but it would absolutely violate Lore and destroy immersion just like so many other features in this game that were poorly designed, and pointing out other mistakes in no way excuses committing more, that's just common sense.

There are just too many reasons why this system is awesome and an AH would be horrible, I just don't see any good arguments against the system we have. Arguments for some minor improvements sure but that's it.

And yet the lore clearly has already been broken whenever the dev's felt doing so would improve the game. So "never" does not apply any more. You may see good reasons to keep the current system - but i can't agree with them. So in the end we can only agree to disagree.

Exactly, it has been broken before, and each and every time has been a mistake, no exceptions. You suggesting that somehow means we should just throw lore out the window is downright idiotic, it doesn't even remotely make the slightest bit of sense to anyone with half a brain. I don't intend to be mean but facts are facts and you're refusing to accept some that are blatantly obvious, all I'm doing is being honest.

People keep bring up lore, but there is no lore for guild traders, either.
The only kind of trader that exists in the lore has been NPC merchants, which is not what the guild traders are.

Belethor doesn't give you any gold for the stuff he sells to you.

So don't try and claim the system you benefit from is lore friendly.

It's lore-friendly compared to the alternatives, and it's the sort of change that can be considered more of an addition than an alteration, unlike an AH which would utterly defy lore without even trying to have a pretense of it the way Guild traders try to (and succeed IMO). Mainly it's lore-friendly because it doesn't violate established norms of travel and commerce the way an AH would, there is no centralized trading in Tamriel and the Guild Traders aren't centralized. So it fits, and you're a fool if you can't grasp that because it's so painfully obvious that you have to be wilfully ignoring and disregarding things you don't agree with in order to not see it.

Cheveyo · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

It's lore-friendly compared to the alternatives, and it's the sort of change that can be considered more of an addition than an alteration, unlike an AH which would utterly defy lore without even trying to have a pretense of it the way Guild traders try to (and succeed IMO). Mainly it's lore-friendly because it doesn't violate established norms of travel and commerce the way an AH would, there is no centralized trading in Tamriel and the Guild Traders aren't central. So it fits, and you're a fool if you can't grasp that because it's so painfully obvious that you have to be wilfully ignoring and disregarding things you don't agree with in order to not see it.

What are you talking about? The guild traders ARE central.

1. I have yet to see the names of the guilds involved changed in ANY of the locations they're available in.
2. The guild traders NEVER move. They are always in the same exact spot.

Those two points combined mean the guild trader system is just as static as an actual auction house system.

The guild trader system doesn't fit. It simply benefits you. And that's why you want to keep it.

Sureshawt · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

If you're still deluded into thinking that an Auction House (and I mean an ACTUAL Auction House with proper bidding on items for sale) is good for any MMO, then you should probably go an play an MMO that actually has one. Try forcing your way into those markets to "make your millions". I guarantee that you won't be able to, and once you start to become a credible threat to the Merchant Guilds (official and unofficial in those games) who already have strangle-holds on those AH's, they'll simply band together and out-bid you into poverty.

Because all of these calls I see for "Auction Houses" are based on highly idealized, Bohemian themes of how one individual thinks a market should run. Nowhere in any of these ideas/threads do I see anyone in favor of adding an AH who might actually know what an Auction house is, or how they operate.

You think you're poor now? Think it's hard to find an item and also be able to afford it now? You have no idea the level of poverty and item scarcity that would enter this game should a real Auction House be implemented.

Trust me, you guys are much better off with the player-policed system that we have with the Guild Traders.

GW2 has an excellent global auction house that works great and is light years ahead of the system we have in ESO...at least for the average player.

Your information is false and no I don't trust you.

FearlessOne_2014 · August 2016

Keep the current system.

I think the current system works far better then the more common AH system adopted by MMOs.

If AHs was adopted into this game, the AH would most likely be placed with a heavy counter like in most of the MMOs on the market %25 tax from the Dev to keep gold at a good price. Market manipulation would go to a all time high if AHs becomes a thing in ESO.

All of the average buyers and sellers would lose all of their power. Just like in the real world with centralized banks and stock markets. Centralizing the buying system in this game would be very bad for these reasons in my opinion.

Yes the current guild store system is pretty inconvenient. However it also rewards buyers for shopping around, more so then the super rich sellers selling items at huge mark ups. In current system a group of Guild Stores can sell items at 148k and another guild store elsewhere can sell the same item at 100k. With a centralized AH system things could be instead brought up and listed at a higher price more so those hard to come by expensive armor and weapons from the new Trials that alot of people can not get their hands on. With a centralized system those item would be marked up overnight by a big degree.

Guild trader system is a system where Moms and Pops shops can actually gain wealth more easier. The Centralized Auction House is a system that makes it easier for the super rich to group up and monopolize on the rare to super rare items. We see this already happening in the real world with highly adverse effects on the livelihood of the people around the world.

The last reason for me not wanting centralized AHs is that is just huge invitation to all of the bots and gold farmers to set up shop in ESO, and start annoying the *** out of us, as is the issue with any other game on the market with a centralized AH system.

Lucius_Aelius · August 2016

Keep the current system.

Cheveyo wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

It's lore-friendly compared to the alternatives, and it's the sort of change that can be considered more of an addition than an alteration, unlike an AH which would utterly defy lore without even trying to have a pretense of it the way Guild traders try to (and succeed IMO). Mainly it's lore-friendly because it doesn't violate established norms of travel and commerce the way an AH would, there is no centralized trading in Tamriel and the Guild Traders aren't central. So it fits, and you're a fool if you can't grasp that because it's so painfully obvious that you have to be wilfully ignoring and disregarding things you don't agree with in order to not see it.

What are you talking about? The guild traders ARE central.

1. I have yet to see the names of the guilds involved changed in ANY of the locations they're available in.
2. The guild traders NEVER move. They are always in the same exact spot.

Those two points combined mean the guild trader system is just as static as an actual auction house system.

The guild trader system doesn't fit. It simply benefits you. And that's why you want to keep it.

Oh yeah, so central, that's why there are dozens of them scattered all over the place and they have no way of sharing inventories or knowledge of their inventories with each other.

Do you even know what centralized means? Because from the looks of it you haven't got the slightest clue, about that or anything else.

Cheveyo · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Oh yeah, so central, that's why there are dozens of them scattered all over the place and they have no way of sharing inventories or knowledge of their inventories with each other.

Do you even know what centralized means? Because from the looks of it you haven't got the slightest clue, about that or anything else.

You attack a single point because you know you've got no leg to stand on. You know damned well you don't care about anything but the fact that the current system makes you a LOT of gold. You're scared that changing the system will affect your ability to make a lot of gold.

Those who own a monopoly are very resistant to changing a system that benefits them so much.

Lucius_Aelius · August 2016

Keep the current system.

Cheveyo wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Oh yeah, so central, that's why there are dozens of them scattered all over the place and they have no way of sharing inventories or knowledge of their inventories with each other.

Do you even know what centralized means? Because from the looks of it you haven't got the slightest clue, about that or anything else.

You attack a single point because you know you've got no leg to stand on. You know damned well you don't care about anything but the fact that the current system makes you a LOT of gold. You're scared that changing the system will affect your ability to make a lot of gold.

Those who own a monopoly are very resistant to changing a system that benefits them so much.

I've argued every single point that people have made, you're the only one here that's got no leg to stand on and that's why you're attacking me instead of trying to come up with a valid counterpoint. Try a little harder, because I'm done arguing with people that lack common sense.

And for the record I would love this system even if I never sold anything to anyone, as a buyer alone I love it, and you're the one who is trying to ignore my valid arguments by suggesting I'll just say anything to defend my profits. Guess what: you're completely full of ***, and I think you know it. Logic is logic and lore is lore, I didn't write the lore to Elder Scrolls but I have played the games and know what the lore is, and that an AH would flagrantly defy any semblance of it.

The current system has everything going for it and practically no legitimate argument against it, that's why I so passionately support it, no other reason. If you can't accept that then that's your problem, not mine for having a brain and choosing to use it. And profitable or not I want a system that works and fits the game, and this system has it all.

Cheveyo · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

The current system has everything going for it and practically no legitimate argument against it, that's why I so passionately support it, no other reason. If you can't accept that then that's your problem, not mine for having a brain and choosing to use it. And profitable or not I want a system that works and fits the game, and this system has it all.

There are plenty of arguments against it.

You just ignore them.

1. The current system is too limiting. Making the only method of obtaining enough of certain items reliant entirely on the guilds that control an area. This limits the amount of trading players can do between themselves as it removes the ability for players to sell anything the vast majority of the time(as in, every moment they're not online).

2. The current system only benefits those lucky enough to be in specific trading guilds. If you are not in those guilds, you do not get to enjoy the benefits of this system.

3. The vast majority of the people that play this game will never take full advantage of the system.

4. The current system created a monopoly. Guilds that get the best spots, control the economy. They decide the prices of everything in game and nobody can compete with them.

A global auction house will benefit everyone but the robber barons controlling the guild traders.

wayfarerx · August 2016

Keep the current system.

Cheveyo wrote: »

1. The current system is too limiting. Making the only method of obtaining enough of certain items reliant entirely on the guilds that control an area. This limits the amount of trading players can do between themselves as it removes the ability for players to sell anything the vast majority of the time(as in, every moment they're not online).

Limits are not a bad thing. We have a limit on how many champion points we can use, and while some people don't like that it generally helps most of the population. The limits on automated trading in this game help promote scarcity (and, by extension, value) in a world where there are functionally infinite amounts of everything.

Cheveyo wrote: »

2. The current system only benefits those lucky enough to be in specific trading guilds. If you are not in those guilds, you do not get to enjoy the benefits of this system.

Really, it's not hard to join a guild. I'm not lucky that I'm in a trading guild, it took all of five minutes to join one. We have a whole forum dedicated to guild recruitment, check it out.

Cheveyo wrote: »

3. The vast majority of the people that play this game will never take full advantage of the system.

Pure speculation, almost everyone I know in game has a guild vendor.

Cheveyo wrote: »

4. The current system created a monopoly. Guilds that get the best spots, control the economy. They decide the prices of everything in game and nobody can compete with them.

Traders in ESO are not a monopoly, in no way does that word describe what we have now.

Cheveyo wrote: »

A global auction house will benefit everyone but the robber barons controlling the guild traders.

A global auction house will benefit people who can hack Lua and have an extra computer open next to them all day (i.e. me, not your run of the mill casual).

Lucius_Aelius · August 2016

Keep the current system.

Cheveyo wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

The current system has everything going for it and practically no legitimate argument against it, that's why I so passionately support it, no other reason. If you can't accept that then that's your problem, not mine for having a brain and choosing to use it. And profitable or not I want a system that works and fits the game, and this system has it all.

There are plenty of arguments against it.

You just ignore them.

1. The current system is too limiting. Making the only method of obtaining enough of certain items reliant entirely on the guilds that control an area. This limits the amount of trading players can do between themselves as it removes the ability for players to sell anything the vast majority of the time(as in, every moment they're not online).

2. The current system only benefits those lucky enough to be in specific trading guilds. If you are not in those guilds, you do not get to enjoy the benefits of this system.

3. The vast majority of the people that play this game will never take full advantage of the system.

4. The current system created a monopoly. Guilds that get the best spots, control the economy. They decide the prices of everything in game and nobody can compete with them.

A global auction house will benefit everyone but the robber barons controlling the guild traders.

Half-truths and some stuff that's irrelevant to this discussion, yeah great arguments there bub.

1. Most of this was nonsense, seriously that was just gibberish, if there was an argument here then you badly garbled it and need to restate it better. I gather that some of that point was about trading guilds controlling an area and limiting other players from selling there if they're not in the guild, but that's all I could make out.

My idea that I've stated repeatedly in this thread and others is that Guilds should have a new permission added that allows those with it to set a minimum price on all items that can possibly be listed and allow players to list items at any trader of their choosing regardless of membership, with anyone not a member being charged a 33% or thereabouts cut to the guild, and because of the minimum prices they couldn't undercut actual guild members. Problem solved, no need to radically transform the system, just give it a common sense upgrade.

2. See (1)'s second paragraph.

3. Again, see (1)'s second paragraph.

4. Again, see (1)'s second paragraph.

See what I did there? One relatively simple but profoundly effective upgrade is all the current system needs to satisfy each and every argument you've made, and it's something I've already said at least twice before this in this thread alone, and some half a dozen times ever on this forum in other threads.

I also think the UI needs a major overhaul, you should only be able to search a trader's inventory when you're standing right next to them, but when you are standing next to them you should absolutely be able to search it properly, and the current search interface is absolute and utter garbage, I cannot stress enough how profoundly and disgustingly bad it is, and it needs to be completely reworked from scratch. Doesn't effect the system of Guild traders at all or this discussion about them, just an improvement to the interface that should have been done ages ago to make this system what it always should have been.

So, got anything else? I'm all ears.

Cheveyo · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

wayfarerx wrote: »

Limits are not a bad thing. We have a limit on how many champion points we can use, and while some people don't like that it generally helps most of the population. The limits on automated trading in this game help promote scarcity (and, by extension, value) in a world where there are functionally infinite amounts of everything.

Artificial scarcity is not a good thing this far along in a game's existence. At least not for every item in game.

Really, it's not hard to join a guild. I'm not lucky that I'm in a trading guild, it took all of five minutes to join one. We have a whole forum dedicated to guild recruitment, check it out.

It should not be a requirement to min/max which guilds you join in order to take advantage of something like this.

Pure speculation, almost everyone I know in game has a guild vendor.

If the number of players in game is greater than the number of players in guilds, then what do you believe will be the end result?

Traders in ESO are not a monopoly, in no way does that word describe what we have now.

Complete control over a market = monopoly.
Controlling the means to trading = monopoly on trading.

A global auction house will benefit people who can hack Lua and have an extra computer open next to them all day (i.e. me, not your run of the mill casual).

It will benefit casual players more than the current system. It doesn't matter how much money you can make. What matters is that a global auction house will grant players access to things they did not have before. It will make for easier trading.

If there is only one store that sells an item you want, then that store can control the cost of the item. If there are thousands of stores that are competing to sell you the item, then the price will naturally fall. Benefiting the people who wish to purchase the item.

Runefang · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Cheveyo wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Oh yeah, so central, that's why there are dozens of them scattered all over the place and they have no way of sharing inventories or knowledge of their inventories with each other.

Do you even know what centralized means? Because from the looks of it you haven't got the slightest clue, about that or anything else.

You attack a single point because you know you've got no leg to stand on. You know damned well you don't care about anything but the fact that the current system makes you a LOT of gold. You're scared that changing the system will affect your ability to make a lot of gold.

Those who own a monopoly are very resistant to changing a system that benefits them so much.

I've argued every single point that people have made, you're the only one here that's got no leg to stand on and that's why you're attacking me instead of trying to come up with a valid counterpoint. Try a little harder, because I'm done arguing with people that lack common sense.

And for the record I would love this system even if I never sold anything to anyone, as a buyer alone I love it, and you're the one who is trying to ignore my valid arguments by suggesting I'll just say anything to defend my profits. Guess what: you're completely full of ***, and I think you know it. Logic is logic and lore is lore, I didn't write the lore to Elder Scrolls but I have played the games and know what the lore is, and that an AH would flagrantly defy any semblance of it.

The current system has everything going for it and practically no legitimate argument against it, that's why I so passionately support it, no other reason. If you can't accept that then that's your problem, not mine for having a brain and choosing to use it. And profitable or not I want a system that works and fits the game, and this system has it all.

Every game, even ESO, compromises on reality for functionality. This is why my horses materialises from thin air. An AH is just another way to have function take precedence over in-game 'reality'. The immersion argument has no legs for me.

There are plenty of legitimate arguments against the current system despite your assertion.

The barriers to entry for new sellers and casual players are too high. Compare the experience here to that of most other MMOs where the AH is a ride away and any new player can sell loot from the beginning. Don't tell me new players don't have anything worth selling either, they just don't have anything worth selling in the current system. I'd love to buy that level 17 training inferno staff from them for research but I can't because they can't sell it to me.

Inconvenience for buyers. Yes the current system rewards buyers for putting in effort but the time cost is simply too high. Have you noticed how many people in the thread say they don't bother with traders anymore though.

The system overwhelmingly favours sellers in large trade guilds who have been playing for a long time. Buyers (at least those with full time jobs), new players and casual players are either severely disadvantaged or simply denied entry to the market.

ZOS said the average player returns for new content and then leaves. That means they won't be in a trade guild that require constant sales (I.e. the ones with good locations), meaning they have trouble accessing the market as a seller.

Auction houses do have their disadvantages but at least its a better system for most of the player base than the current one. And at least I can acknowledge the shortcomings of an AH, you seem to believe there are none with guild traders despite people on here saying they won't even bother to participate in the market because of the shortcomings.

I'd happily accept a compromised approach as well, I don't see that it has to current or AH with nothing in-between. Get rid of the really out of the way traders and centralise them. Add a public trader in major cities where anybody can sell a few items. Add a global search. There are lots of alternative approaches that would improve things.

jkemmery · August 2016

None of the above. I would propose a solution such as this: Guilds can band together to form "Cartels". Any item for sale by a member of a guild can be sold at any of the "Cartel" guild traders. Limit cartels to 20 guilds. An item sold by a guild's guild trader that was put up for sale by a member of a different guild within a cartel will have an automatic 1%, or one gold piece surcharge (whichever is greater) added that will then be kicked back to the guild where the item was sold.

This will make it easier to find things without traipsing all over Tamriel, yet not completely cut out the idea of guilds.

wayfarerx · August 2016

Keep the current system.

Cheveyo wrote: »

Artificial scarcity is not a good thing this far along in a game's existence. At least not for every item in game.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Most of the things in this game that are not Bind-on-Pickup are available literally everywhere. IMO there needs to be a check on how scarce these things are if we're going to have something resembling an economy.

Most of the times I see people complaining on the forums that "I can't find X anywhere" I can usually find it in a trader in about five minutes, and I'm always able to find the stuff I'm looking for, so I don't really buy the "things are too scarce" argument.

Cheveyo wrote: »

It should not be a requirement to min/max which guilds you join in order to take advantage of something like this.

WAT? Min/max guilds? What does that even mean? Join guild -> list items. Not hard.

Cheveyo wrote: »

If the number of players in game is greater than the number of players in guilds, then what do you believe will be the end result?

ZOS adds more traders, like they do with almost every major patch.

Cheveyo wrote: »

Complete control over a market = monopoly.
Controlling the means to trading = monopoly on trading.

One large organization controlling an entire market == monopoly.
Lots of small organizations competing with one another == totally not a monopoly.

Do you call your local strip mall a monopoly because they won't let you sell tamales out of your trunk in front of the UPS store without paying rent?

Cheveyo wrote: »

It will benefit casual players more than the current system. It doesn't matter how much money you can make. What matters is that a global auction house will grant players access to things they did not have before. It will make for easier trading.

Again, we can agree to disagree. I think the playerbase is better served if people like me are prevented from having unrestricted, real-time access to the entire market from one place.

Cheveyo wrote: »

If there is only one store that sells an item you want, then that store can control the cost of the item. If there are thousands of stores that are competing to sell you the item, then the price will naturally fall. Benefiting the people who wish to purchase the item.

A global AH will make this problem worse, not better. Believe me, I would be the one making it worse.

kargen27 · August 2016

snakester320 wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

snakester320 wrote: »

no scrap the old system that the guilds owning and controlling the markets ( crying at the fact there market will dry up if a central AH is introduced) and move towards a better system thats fair for everyone!!

How is it not fair for everyone? Because everyone doesn't want to join a trade guild/ regular guild?

Sounds like a problem with the player, not the game. It's fair if you partake and give it a shot....

why should i have to join a guild to sell items??? why should i then have to pay ( granted not all ) the guild to sell items?? Then i lose the right to sell items if someone outbids the guild on the trader !! silly system protected by equally silly ppl !!

You don't have to. People are successful selling items in zone chat all the time. Just go to a populated area and announce what you have and that you would like for someone else to have it. Then it just becomes a matter of price.

Lucius_Aelius · August 2016

Keep the current system.

Runefang wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Cheveyo wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Oh yeah, so central, that's why there are dozens of them scattered all over the place and they have no way of sharing inventories or knowledge of their inventories with each other.

Do you even know what centralized means? Because from the looks of it you haven't got the slightest clue, about that or anything else.

You attack a single point because you know you've got no leg to stand on. You know damned well you don't care about anything but the fact that the current system makes you a LOT of gold. You're scared that changing the system will affect your ability to make a lot of gold.

Those who own a monopoly are very resistant to changing a system that benefits them so much.

I've argued every single point that people have made, you're the only one here that's got no leg to stand on and that's why you're attacking me instead of trying to come up with a valid counterpoint. Try a little harder, because I'm done arguing with people that lack common sense.

And for the record I would love this system even if I never sold anything to anyone, as a buyer alone I love it, and you're the one who is trying to ignore my valid arguments by suggesting I'll just say anything to defend my profits. Guess what: you're completely full of ***, and I think you know it. Logic is logic and lore is lore, I didn't write the lore to Elder Scrolls but I have played the games and know what the lore is, and that an AH would flagrantly defy any semblance of it.

The current system has everything going for it and practically no legitimate argument against it, that's why I so passionately support it, no other reason. If you can't accept that then that's your problem, not mine for having a brain and choosing to use it. And profitable or not I want a system that works and fits the game, and this system has it all.

Every game, even ESO, compromises on reality for functionality. This is why my horses materialises from thin air. An AH is just another way to have function take precedence over in-game 'reality'. The immersion argument has no legs for me.

There are plenty of legitimate arguments against the current system despite your assertion.

The barriers to entry for new sellers and casual players are too high. Compare the experience here to that of most other MMOs where the AH is a ride away and any new player can sell loot from the beginning. Don't tell me new players don't have anything worth selling either, they just don't have anything worth selling in the current system. I'd love to buy that level 17 training inferno staff from them for research but I can't because they can't sell it to me.

Inconvenience for buyers. Yes the current system rewards buyers for putting in effort but the time cost is simply too high. Have you noticed how many people in the thread say they don't bother with traders anymore though.

The system overwhelmingly favours sellers in large trade guilds who have been playing for a long time. Buyers (at least those with full time jobs), new players and casual players are either severely disadvantaged or simply denied entry to the market.

ZOS said the average player returns for new content and then leaves. That means they won't be in a trade guild that require constant sales (I.e. the ones with good locations), meaning they have trouble accessing the market as a seller.

Auction houses do have their disadvantages but at least its a better system for most of the player base than the current one. And at least I can acknowledge the shortcomings of an AH, you seem to believe there are none with guild traders despite people on here saying they won't even bother to participate in the market because of the shortcomings.

I'd happily accept a compromised approach as well, I don't see that it has to current or AH with nothing in-between. Get rid of the really out of the way traders and centralise them. Add a public trader in major cities where anybody can sell a few items. Add a global search. There are lots of alternative approaches that would improve things.

See my post above with the numbered points, pretty much everything you said has a response there to counter it.

And of course games have to make compromises to work right, ideally in my mind this game would be the size of an actual world such that it would take days to ride across Tamriel, but that would be so profoundly impractical that regardless of how epic and amazing it would be it simply couldn't function as a game, not even remotely.

So yes, compromises are essential and unavoidable, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid them wherever possible. This argument to throw out lore and just have an AH might work if there wasn't a viable alternative, but there is a viable alternative, and we've been using it for years. The current system works great, doesn't defy lore and supports immersion, the only detractors are things that can easily be sorted out by upgrading the current system without fundamentally changing it, so it's your argument that has no legs, not mine.

And the laziness of some vocal players means nothing, less than nothing. Anyone who can't be bothered to spend a little time searching for what they want doesn't deserve to have it, end of story. I have no sympathy for lazy people, and if the UI were properly fixed then most of those people would find it more tolerable to spend time searching and would be less inclined towards laziness, so until such time as the UI is upgraded and the changes I suggested are implemented then we can't even get an accurate picture of how people really feel about the system.

The problems lots of people have are with minor details that are easily fixed (if ZOS would actually do their jobs and fix it anyway, it's ridiculous that it hasn't been done yet), and as such those complaints aren't even really about the Guild Trader system at all, and instead they're about how badly ZOS implemented our interface with the traders. Two completely different things.

Cheveyo · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

wayfarerx wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Most of the things in this game that are not Bind-on-Pickup are available literally everywhere. IMO there needs to be a check on how scarce these things are if we're going to have something resembling an economy.

Not on all items. Mountain Flowers should be be limited like this.
Nor should they be limited by guilds who want 10k gold for a stack of 10 flowers.

Most of the times I see people complaining on the forums that "I can't find X anywhere" I can usually find it in a trader in about five minutes, and I'm always able to find the stuff I'm looking for, so I don't really buy the "things are too scarce" argument.

You have enough money that the prices of things are irrelevant. Most of the player base does not share your fortune.

WAT? Min/max guilds? What does that even mean? Join guild -> list items. Not hard.

You have to join the right guild.

You can test it yourself. Quit all the guilds you're currently in and join completely new ones. Ones that you have not been a part of and are not currently a part of. You will see a massive drop in the amount of gold you're making.

ZOS adds more traders, like they do with almost every major patch.

This does not solve the problem. Because most players are not in the guilds.
If players NOT IN GUILDS > players in guilds. Then you have the problem.

One large organization controlling an entire market == monopoly.
Lots of small organizations competing with one another == totally not a monopoly.

You're not competing with anyone. You've all got your own spots. There is no competition.

Do you call your local strip mall a monopoly because they won't let you sell tamales out of your trunk in front of the UPS store without paying rent?

You can't compare this crap to a strip mall. I do not need to travel to a different city to find a pair of pants.

Guild traders are NOT like a strip mall. They're like a shop at a small town.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ4z0QhD92Y

Again, we can agree to disagree. I think the playerbase is better served if people like me are prevented from having unrestricted, real-time access to the entire market from one place.

Because it benefits YOU personally.

A global AH will make this problem worse, not better. Believe me, I would be the one making it worse.

Ah yes, we must all bow before your mighty economic power. You and only you will be selling items on the AH. Nobody else will be competing with you. You will control everything because you are the Master of the Economy! (insert echo)

You're not going to do anything. You're going to try. You're going to fail. Then you're going to come to these forums to complain about people undercutting you.

wayfarerx · August 2016

Keep the current system.

Cheveyo wrote: »

Not on all items. Mountain Flowers should be be limited like this.
Nor should they be limited by guilds who want 10k gold for a stack of 10 flowers.

It's a little unclear but it seems like you are trying to imply that there is some kind of stanglehold on a flower that grows in EVERY zone in the game and that you literally trip over just running around. Sorry but I don't buy it (and I don't ever buy mountain flowers either, or farm aggressively).

Cheveyo wrote: »

You have enough money that the prices of things are irrelevant. Most of the player base does not share your fortune.

Oh so it's the prices you don't like, not the general availability. And you want a global AH, huh?

Cheveyo wrote: »

You have to join the right guild.

You can test it yourself. Quit all the guilds you're currently in and join completely new ones. Ones that you have not been a part of and are not currently a part of. You will see a massive drop in the amount of gold you're making.

Well I like my guilds so I'll pass, but I've joined and left many guilds, trade guilds, social guilds, PvE/PvP guilds, etc. Selling stuff has never been an issue for me with any of them. YMMV I guess.

Cheveyo wrote: »

This does not solve the problem. Because most players are not in the guilds.
If players NOT IN GUILDS > players in guilds. Then you have the problem.

Hence the whole "join a guild" part. It's not our problem if you just absolutely refuse to even try with the current system.

Cheveyo wrote: »

You're not competing with anyone. You've all got your own spots. There is no competition.

I was unaware that I owned all the guild traders in the game, not sure how I missed that. Got some work to do tonight I guess.

But seriously, if you want to back up the monopoly assertion you made a little evidence might help. I have to compete with other traders all the time.

Cheveyo wrote: »

You can't compare this crap to a strip mall. I do not need to travel to a different city to find a pair of pants.
Guild traders are NOT like a strip mall. They're like a shop at a small town.

You also can't teleport to another city in 30 seconds to check for that pair of pants IRL, so I think the strip mall analogy holds.

Cheveyo wrote: »

Because it benefits YOU personally.

Guess you missed the part where I implied that I could make WAY more gold with a global AH than I do now. I am arguing against my own interests here in favor of an actually fun game.

Cheveyo wrote: »

Ah yes, we must all bow before your mighty economic power. You and only you will be selling items on the AH. Nobody else will be competing with you. You will control everything because you are the Master of the Economy! (insert echo)

You're not going to do anything. You're going to try. You're going to fail. Then you're going to come to these forums to complain about people undercutting you.

You can get all hyperbolic if you like, doesn't change anything.

Xvorg · August 2016

Keep the current system.

This system is way better than the AH why?

1- AH stands for speculation and some (if not most) of the items will get higher prices. How? Just ask a friend to increase the bid on your item whenever there's a strong bid.

2- It's a no brainer issue that the guys who has more gold, get the best items. At lest wth the current system you are FORCED to visit different zones, spending time to get what you want. So more or less gold does little difference.

AH should be useful if you had some other ways to spend gold, but having nothing like that, then there's no pont for AH.

By thge way, joining a trading guild is so easy like whispering an official in the game's chat.

Cheveyo · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

Xvorg wrote: »

This system is way better than the AH why?

1- AH stands for speculation and some (if not most) of the items will get higher prices. How? Just ask a friend to increase the bid on your item whenever there's a strong bid.

And your friend wins the item because nobody else bid on it.

2- It's a no brainer issue that the guys who has more gold, get the best items. At lest wth the current system you are FORCED to visit different zones, spending time to get what you want. So more or less gold does little difference.

In what way does forcing people to load into 13 different cities benefit anyone?

Korah_Eaglecry · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

I do everything I can to actively avoid Guild Traders. Mostly because of how troublesome it is. The UI is not optimal for searching and the process of hunting down what you want is tedious. I dont play this game so that I can spend a hour + shopping for digital items that I might not find.

tryia3b14a_ESO · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

Xvorg wrote: »

This system is way better than the AH why?

1- AH stands for speculation and some (if not most) of the items will get higher prices. How? Just ask a friend to increase the bid on your item whenever there's a strong bid.

2- It's a no brainer issue that the guys who has more gold, get the best items. At lest wth the current system you are FORCED to visit different zones, spending time to get what you want. So more or less gold does little difference.

AH should be useful if you had some other ways to spend gold, but having nothing like that, then there's no pont for AH.

By thge way, joining a trading guild is so easy like whispering an official in the game's chat.

I think you'll find that in other games that have an auction house (WoW, GW2, SWTOR, FFXIV) that most items except the super rare ones are actually pretty affordable because the average person just wants to make a quick sale and is willing to list thier item for cheaper than the last person who listed it. You have hundreds or thousands of people listing really common, but extreme useful stuff like crafting materials, each undercutting the last and you end up with a healthy and most importantly, accessible, market.

Xvorg · August 2016

Keep the current system.

Cheveyo wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

This system is way better than the AH why?

1- AH stands for speculation and some (if not most) of the items will get higher prices. How? Just ask a friend to increase the bid on your item whenever there's a strong bid.

And your friend wins the item because nobody else bid on it.

2- It's a no brainer issue that the guys who has more gold, get the best items. At lest wth the current system you are FORCED to visit different zones, spending time to get what you want. So more or less gold does little difference.

In what way does forcing people to load into 13 different cities benefit anyone?

1- I was thinking about a good item with a current bid on it...
2- Benefits the guys who are dedicated t the game and not the one who has more gold. Any guy with can get a good item if he nows how ti dig in the current market. Call it luck if you want, but is way better than the "i've got a bigger purse than you" mechanic. Since it takes some time to visit the 13 market zones, hardly a player who finds a CP160 Sun's set piece at 3K gold is going t buy it and resell it (though it is posible). With the AH, If anyone is able to spot that same pc of the same set,is going to buy it and resell it at a better price, at a busier hour. And the ne who's going to spot it is the one who has the money.

Xvorg · August 2016

Keep the current system.

tryia3b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

This system is way better than the AH why?

1- AH stands for speculation and some (if not most) of the items will get higher prices. How? Just ask a friend to increase the bid on your item whenever there's a strong bid.

2- It's a no brainer issue that the guys who has more gold, get the best items. At lest wth the current system you are FORCED to visit different zones, spending time to get what you want. So more or less gold does little difference.

AH should be useful if you had some other ways to spend gold, but having nothing like that, then there's no pont for AH.

By thge way, joining a trading guild is so easy like whispering an official in the game's chat.

I think you'll find that in other games that have an auction house (WoW, GW2, SWTOR, FFXIV) that most items except the super rare ones are actually pretty affordable because the average person just wants to make a quick sale and is willing to list thier item for cheaper than the last person who listed it. You have hundreds or thousands of people listing really common, but extreme useful stuff like crafting materials, each undercutting the last and you end up with a healthy and most importantly, accessible, market.

Do you know what the main problem with auction houses? They work on a very debatable base: "the market regulates itself".

In my experience in some other games with markets (not only MMO, necessarily), that's far from being true: The market is a tool only for those who have enough time to harvest materials, and enough money to get the best commodities.

At a given time, the first group and the second group become only one.

Why I know that? Because it is my playing style in those games. I afford everything I want through the market.

Why I'm against that? Because this game has so much problems in terms of balance, that adding something like an AH:

1- Is not going to provide any solution to current problems.
2- Is going to deviate atention to the market. Then we will be complainig about inflation, deflation, price regulations, etc, instead of tankiness, DPS and res management.

If you want, ask ZoS about an AH in the PTS during a couple of months, then, when everyone is fighting about the prices, come back and tell me how good was the experience.

smacx250 · August 2016

Keep the current system.

tryia3b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

This system is way better than the AH why?

1- AH stands for speculation and some (if not most) of the items will get higher prices. How? Just ask a friend to increase the bid on your item whenever there's a strong bid.

2- It's a no brainer issue that the guys who has more gold, get the best items. At lest wth the current system you are FORCED to visit different zones, spending time to get what you want. So more or less gold does little difference.

AH should be useful if you had some other ways to spend gold, but having nothing like that, then there's no pont for AH.

By thge way, joining a trading guild is so easy like whispering an official in the game's chat.

I think you'll find that in other games that have an auction house (WoW, GW2, SWTOR, FFXIV) that most items except the super rare ones are actually pretty affordable because the average person just wants to make a quick sale and is willing to list thier item for cheaper than the last person who listed it. You have hundreds or thousands of people listing really common, but extreme useful stuff like crafting materials, each undercutting the last and you end up with a healthy and most importantly, accessible, market.

One thing to consider is that these really common low cost items have a hard floor at the NPC vendor price. It is what keeps them from being listed in the traders as things are now. If the sales price isn't high enough over the vendor price to bother with the listing process and the "tax", and overcome the "opportunity cost" associated with taking a sales slot from more profitable items, it is just sold at the vendor and never makes to listing. Swapping out the traders with an AH (with the realities of the limits that would be put in place with respect to "tax" and number of sales slots) would be unlikely to make any substantial difference in the price or availability of the common low cost goods due to the floor put in place by the NPC vendors.

tryia3b14a_ESO · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

smacx250 wrote: »

tryia3b14a_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

This system is way better than the AH why?

1- AH stands for speculation and some (if not most) of the items will get higher prices. How? Just ask a friend to increase the bid on your item whenever there's a strong bid.

2- It's a no brainer issue that the guys who has more gold, get the best items. At lest wth the current system you are FORCED to visit different zones, spending time to get what you want. So more or less gold does little difference.

AH should be useful if you had some other ways to spend gold, but having nothing like that, then there's no pont for AH.

By thge way, joining a trading guild is so easy like whispering an official in the game's chat.

I think you'll find that in other games that have an auction house (WoW, GW2, SWTOR, FFXIV) that most items except the super rare ones are actually pretty affordable because the average person just wants to make a quick sale and is willing to list thier item for cheaper than the last person who listed it. You have hundreds or thousands of people listing really common, but extreme useful stuff like crafting materials, each undercutting the last and you end up with a healthy and most importantly, accessible, market.

One thing to consider is that these really common low cost items have a hard floor at the NPC vendor price. It is what keeps them from being listed in the traders as things are now. If the sales price isn't high enough over the vendor price to bother with the listing process and the "tax", and overcome the "opportunity cost" associated with taking a sales slot from more profitable items, it is just sold at the vendor and never makes to listing. Swapping out the traders with an AH (with the realities of the limits that would be put in place with respect to "tax" and number of sales slots) would be unlikely to make any substantial difference in the price or availability of the common low cost goods due to the floor put in place by the NPC vendors.

All games face the same NPC price floor, but having an auction house allows players to very easily list the cheap, common items for slightly more than they'd get by selling it to a vendor. This benefits people who find stuff, as they get more gold than they would from an NPC and it benefits the buyer since they won't have trouble finding the materials they need.

Having crafting materials and recipes stay in circulation rather than getting trashed at a vendor brings the value of crafted items down, allows more players to acquire them, and keeps player gold transferring from player to player. Anything that shifts gold from one player to another or from players to NPC's is beneficial to regulating an economy. Things that spawn gold in from an NPC to a player (such as farming lucrative mobs or selling to vendors) is less so because it adds to the amount of overall player wealth and contributes to inflation.

Cheveyo · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

Xvorg wrote: »

1- I was thinking about a good item with a current bid on it...

People can try this all they want and the result will be the same.
You'll find people stop bidding on the item because it's more than they want to pay for. Most players aren't going to bother trying to have a bidding war. They'll just find an item with a low enough buyout price and get that.

Meanwhile, you and your friend are bidding on your item, thinking it's other players fighting you for it.

2- Benefits the guys who are dedicated t the game and not the one who has more gold. Any guy with can get a good item if he nows how ti dig in the current market. Call it luck if you want, but is way better than the "i've got a bigger purse than you" mechanic. Since it takes some time to visit the 13 market zones, hardly a player who finds a CP160 Sun's set piece at 3K gold is going t buy it and resell it (though it is posible). With the AH, If anyone is able to spot that same pc of the same set,is going to buy it and resell it at a better price, at a busier hour. And the ne who's going to spot it is the one who has the money.

Having to travel to 13 zones doesn't benefit anyone. That's not a benefit.

If I tell you that somewhere in the US, you can find a pair of pants for a good price and say that it benefits you to have to travel to every city in the US until you find it, you'd laugh. It's just as ridiculous to claim that FORCING a player to travel around the world is a good thing.

Yes, you can buy a set and resell it. And someone else can show up and undercut you with the same item. And someone shows up to undercut them.

Then you come to the forums and complain about people undercutting you.

Lord_Eomer · August 2016

Scrap the original guild auction houses and make one simple central auction house everyone can use.

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Traders are waste of time in searching items and only guild owner is making good gold out of taxes and listing fee and still owner's want per week fix fee for trading.

This system is a big failure and disaster for ESO economy and discouraging players to Trade.

The taxes go to the guild bank, not the guild owner. If there guild owner is taking the money from taxes, they are crooked and you should leave that guild.

Most of Guild members do not have access to Guild Bank and who knows if how many guild owners are loyal.

Lucius_Aelius · August 2016

Keep the current system.

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Traders are waste of time in searching items and only guild owner is making good gold out of taxes and listing fee and still owner's want per week fix fee for trading.

This system is a big failure and disaster for ESO economy and discouraging players to Trade.

The taxes go to the guild bank, not the guild owner. If there guild owner is taking the money from taxes, they are crooked and you should leave that guild.

Most of Guild members do not have access to Guild Bank and who knows if how many guild owners are loyal.

You can see for yourself in the withdrawals menu and bidding history whatever the Guild Leader does, trust is all well and good but I'd never suggest not verifying as well.