STOP DOING EQUIPMENT WRITS

I_killed_Vivec · August 2016

I don't think it's a "mistake" to do writs.

It might be sub-optimal when measured by in-game gold but that is only one criterion. As I said, I prefer to do writs (my crafter actually crafting) than just passively selling materials.

And even then, the time spent farming and refining materials might be "better" (in terms of in-game gold) spent doing something else, such as grinding which has the additional benefit of providing XP. So is farming a "mistake"?

The real problem with writs is that they are so repetitive - both in terms of work and reward. Always the same items to create, for essentially the same reward. In particular there is no increased reward for a master crafter who has learnt all the traits - in fact there is less because inspiration is meaningless.

Writs should give bonuses for added "difficulty" - add a specific trait, make it green, create a triple-reagent potion or blue food.

Smitch_59 · August 2016

But if everyone took the OP's advice and stopped doing writs, and listed their mats in the guild stores instead, then the mats market would soon be flooded, prices would drop, and writs would suddenly become profitable again.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'd

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Haha I get it man. I really do but you never lose anything. You might make less...but never lose anything.

Sorry @imnotanother , but if you have 1 apple, customer A is ready to pay 5 dollars for that apple, customer B is ready to pay 10 dollars for that apple, and you choose to sell it to customer A, then you've not earned 5 dollars, you've clearly lost 5 dollars.
That's math. Not opinion.

It's not maths, it's semantics.

In this example, say the apple trader buys apples at wholesale prices of 1g per apple. He sold the apple at 5g to one customer, rather than 10g to another.

His profit IS 4g - that is maths.

His profit could have been 9g - which shows an opportunity loss of 5g.

No. It's not semantics.

Moment A :

You have 1000 gold. Global asset 1000.

Moment B :

You farm 1 apple. Market price of apple is 10g. Global asset 1010.

Moment C :

option C1 : You sell the apple 5g:
Global assets : 1005.

option C2 : you sell the apple for 10g.
Global assets : 1010.

Option C1 shows a 5g LOSS as compared to Moment B.

You can argue that C1 and C2 options BOTH show a gain as compared to moment A, but that's assuming the apple was worth nothing, which is untrue : it was part of your assets before you sold it. No accounting law will let you estimate the value of your assets lower than market price.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Another example given was crafting armour for someone. If it costs 5g in materials but one crafter sells it for 10g then I might choose to undercut that price and sell for 9g. I will have made a 4g profit, and in this case there isn't even an opportunity loss, because trying to sell at 10g might result in failure to sell at all.

If you cannot sell at 10g it means market price is NOT 10g. Per definition.

Giraffon · August 2016

Is anyone else excited that loading screens in Wrothgar seem to have gone away? I am! Doing consumable writs just got a lot better for me! I used to get so close to that stinking board and then I'd get a loading screen! Argh! Now since the last patch I can just trot right up to it. Hurrah!

In fact, I ran all over Wrothgar last night and I don't recall any loading screens at all!

imnotanother · August 2016

Smitch_59 wrote: »

But if everyone took the OP's advice and stopped doing writs, and listed their mats in the guild stores instead, then the mats market would soon be flooded, prices would drop, and writs would suddenly become profitable again.

Shhh don't speak common sense in this thread.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'd

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Haha I get it man. I really do but you never lose anything. You might make less...but never lose anything.

Sorry @imnotanother , but if you have 1 apple, customer A is ready to pay 5 dollars for that apple, customer B is ready to pay 10 dollars for that apple, and you choose to sell it to customer A, then you've not earned 5 dollars, you've clearly lost 5 dollars.
That's math. Not opinion.

It's not maths, it's semantics.

In this example, say the apple trader buys apples at wholesale prices of 1g per apple. He sold the apple at 5g to one customer, rather than 10g to another.

His profit IS 4g - that is maths.

His profit could have been 9g - which shows an opportunity loss of 5g.

No. It's not semantics.

Moment A :

You have 1000 gold. Global asset 1000.

Moment B :

You farm 1 apple. Market price of apple is 10g. Global asset 1010.

Moment C :

option C1 : You sell the apple 5g:
Global assets : 1005.

option C2 : you sell the apple for 10g.
Global assets : 1010.

Option C1 shows a 5g LOSS as compared to Moment B.

You can argue that C1 and C2 options BOTH show a gain as compared to moment A, but that's assuming the apple was worth nothing, which is untrue : it was part of your assets before you sold it. No accounting law will let you estimate the value of your assets lower than market price.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Another example given was crafting armour for someone. If it costs 5g in materials but one crafter sells it for 10g then I might choose to undercut that price and sell for 9g. I will have made a 4g profit, and in this case there isn't even an opportunity loss, because trying to sell at 10g might result in failure to sell at all.

If you cannot sell at 10g it means market price is NOT 10g. Per definition.

You and others keep thinking you value the good at a retail value. In business we use the term Cost of goods sold (COGS).

Cogs = the price it took for the good to be made. (Apple cost 1g but has a retail Value of 10g)
Income = gross revenue.
Profit/NOL = gross revenue - expenses(COGS)

So when an apple is sold for 5g(gross) minus 1g (COGS) you equal a 4g profit.

Now in Eso, I don't have to pay a miner/logger/or farmer to obtain raw goods.
I also don't pay a foundry/sawmill/clothier to refine the goods.
No freight/transportation charges.
No labor cost

So to obtain a stack of materials, you literally have 0 expenses.

Now when I use a stack of materials to complete writs, the COGS are 0.
Take whatever gross revenue - cogs = the profit made from completing writs.

Same in the store, you list the same stack for X amount.
X - cogs- listing fee- house cut = profit.

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

Nestor · August 2016

It has nothing to do with Gold, it has everything to do with Mats.

Prior to the update, I was not using up my mats to do the Top Tier Writs, I was gaining, slowly, but I was gaining mats. Mats are the currency of writs, its what you use and what you get back. Gold is just a tip, but no where what you need to replace the mats. Time is also an issue, spending 30 to 60 minutes farming for mats to do the writs to end up in a net mat loss anyway is just spinning my wheels. I could do much more efficient things with my time than that, even if that is just farming for the mats.

As long as Durable Writs remain a net mat loss, I will not do them. I did not do Tier 9 writs, which are way more mat intensive for the same reasons.

Cryptical · August 2016

Unrealized income is not a loss.

Income that you might have received, but did not receive, is not a loss.

Example, income that Goldman Sachs might have received from heavy bank fees, but did not receive, is not the same as GS actually losing value.

When you have a profit (are worth more now than before) and the profit is not as big as is could have been, YOU STILL HAVE THAT SMALL PROFIT!

In stock market terms, a profit that is smaller than it could have been is "disappointing". It is not a loss.

In old school parlance, the phrase would be "Do not count your chickens before they hatch."

Sheesh.

Elfbait · August 2016

I only did equipment crafting writs for inspiration as I leveled the skill. I bought stacks of mats at reasonable prices if my own gatherings ran out, and once I maxed the skill, I stopped doing equipment writs. They were tedious to fulfill and only sporadically satisfying in terms of rewards, and I no longer needed the inspiration they granted.

Consumables writs are another matter. I still do these regularly, and enjoy all steps of the process- gathering, assembling, delivery, reward. Well, except for dropping them off in Orsinium. But using the Shatul wayshrine makes it less of a bother.

Recremen · August 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

But if everyone took the OP's advice and stopped doing writs, and listed their mats in the guild stores instead, then the mats market would soon be flooded, prices would drop, and writs would suddenly become profitable again.

Shhh don't speak common sense in this thread.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'd

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Haha I get it man. I really do but you never lose anything. You might make less...but never lose anything.

Sorry @imnotanother , but if you have 1 apple, customer A is ready to pay 5 dollars for that apple, customer B is ready to pay 10 dollars for that apple, and you choose to sell it to customer A, then you've not earned 5 dollars, you've clearly lost 5 dollars.
That's math. Not opinion.

It's not maths, it's semantics.

In this example, say the apple trader buys apples at wholesale prices of 1g per apple. He sold the apple at 5g to one customer, rather than 10g to another.

His profit IS 4g - that is maths.

His profit could have been 9g - which shows an opportunity loss of 5g.

No. It's not semantics.

Moment A :

You have 1000 gold. Global asset 1000.

Moment B :

You farm 1 apple. Market price of apple is 10g. Global asset 1010.

Moment C :

option C1 : You sell the apple 5g:
Global assets : 1005.

option C2 : you sell the apple for 10g.
Global assets : 1010.

Option C1 shows a 5g LOSS as compared to Moment B.

You can argue that C1 and C2 options BOTH show a gain as compared to moment A, but that's assuming the apple was worth nothing, which is untrue : it was part of your assets before you sold it. No accounting law will let you estimate the value of your assets lower than market price.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Another example given was crafting armour for someone. If it costs 5g in materials but one crafter sells it for 10g then I might choose to undercut that price and sell for 9g. I will have made a 4g profit, and in this case there isn't even an opportunity loss, because trying to sell at 10g might result in failure to sell at all.

If you cannot sell at 10g it means market price is NOT 10g. Per definition.

You and others keep thinking you value the good at a retail value. In business we use the term Cost of goods sold (COGS).

Cogs = the price it took for the good to be made. (Apple cost 1g but has a retail Value of 10g)
Income = gross revenue.
Profit/NOL = gross revenue - expenses(COGS)

So when an apple is sold for 5g(gross) minus 1g (COGS) you equal a 4g profit.

Now in Eso, I don't have to pay a miner/logger/or farmer to obtain raw goods.
I also don't pay a foundry/sawmill/clothier to refine the goods.
No freight/transportation charges.
No labor cost

So to obtain a stack of materials, you literally have 0 expenses.

Now when I use a stack of materials to complete writs, the COGS are 0.
Take whatever gross revenue - cogs = the profit made from completing writs.

Same in the store, you list the same stack for X amount.
X - cogs- listing fee- house cut = profit.

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

I wouldn't say you have "zero" expenses for farming materials, that's an issue of opportunity cost.

Soleya · August 2016

code65536 wrote: »

All because some people QQ'ed about finding Nightwood for top-tier writs.

I never understood what the issue with nightwood was. In 15 mins I could have a stack of it at a cost of about 3g each.

Steal bows, staves and shields, launder them for 24g, decon and get 8 nightwood.

Soleya · August 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

Example
I have thousands of wild blackberry bushes on my property. I go out there in the early summer and am able to pick several pounds (close to 100lbs). This is done on my time for free/fun. My family eats some, we give a lot away to friends/family, and then I sell the rest to my farmers market for money. With your logic, I lost money instead of making a profit. But my heavy wallet says differently.

But like I said, thank you for your concern over my business handling abilities. I'll ensure my employees that you are paying their paychecks this week, since you know more.

I think this analogy is wrong.

Lets say you can sell the blackberries for $1 per pound (sell raw mats). You pick 100 and sell it at the market and make $100 profit.

Or you can make blackberry pies (writs). The pies sell for $2, but each requires 3 lbs of blackberries to make. Your profit is $66.

In both cases you make profit, but in the case of the pies you make less. In this case a loss of $34. Not to mention the time it took to make the pies.

Waffennacht · August 2016

GwwwsaAaaaaAAAAAA!

TIME HAS A VALUE

There is no such thing as, "free"

Every second you spend farming mats to waste on writs you are NOT doing something MORE profitable

SO in the above arguments, the person farming that keeps saying it's "free" is way off.

To me 1 hour is equivalent to 13 - 20k gold. If i go out. It's to grab roughly 200 mats an hour, I get an average of 1 gold item per stack, so if I do anything and don't get 13k worth of gold, I'm losing money.

kylewwefan · August 2016

Wow......let it go. Like seriously. Have fun!

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2016

Hi, my name is Bear, and I am a writ-o-holic. (Hi Bear).

I have come to the same conclusion. I am going to take a break from writs for a bit. I usually do them on 5 toons, and have been faithful to the point of insanity in doing them since the days of craglorn. They have literally made me millions in straight gold and even more in gold mats. The writs themselves have always come at a net loss in mats, but the surveys and gold mats more than made up for it.

Problem is that there is now a disconnect because they changed the input and not the output (surveys still dropping V14 Mats). Once that is addressed, I am sure it will be back to normal.

As crazy as it sounds, there were periods of time when this game was not in a great spot that basically the only reason I logged in was to do writs. I have often wondered if they are actually the reason I still play. Not because they are fun, but because they were meaningful in helping my account amass wealth. That's what dailys are supposed to do. Give you a reason to log on every day, even if they are a little repetitive and boring. This really needs to be addressed soon.

Waffennacht · August 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

Wow......let it go. Like seriously. Have fun!

But don't you know...

This IS Fun

I_killed_Vivec · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'd

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Haha I get it man. I really do but you never lose anything. You might make less...but never lose anything.

Sorry @imnotanother , but if you have 1 apple, customer A is ready to pay 5 dollars for that apple, customer B is ready to pay 10 dollars for that apple, and you choose to sell it to customer A, then you've not earned 5 dollars, you've clearly lost 5 dollars.
That's math. Not opinion.

It's not maths, it's semantics.

In this example, say the apple trader buys apples at wholesale prices of 1g per apple. He sold the apple at 5g to one customer, rather than 10g to another.

His profit IS 4g - that is maths.

His profit could have been 9g - which shows an opportunity loss of 5g.

No. It's not semantics.

Moment A :

You have 1000 gold. Global asset 1000.

Moment B :

You farm 1 apple. Market price of apple is 10g. Global asset 1010.

Moment C :

option C1 : You sell the apple 5g:
Global assets : 1005.

option C2 : you sell the apple for 10g.
Global assets : 1010.

Option C1 shows a 5g LOSS as compared to Moment B.

You can argue that C1 and C2 options BOTH show a gain as compared to moment A, but that's assuming the apple was worth nothing, which is untrue : it was part of your assets before you sold it. No accounting law will let you estimate the value of your assets lower than market price.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Another example given was crafting armour for someone. If it costs 5g in materials but one crafter sells it for 10g then I might choose to undercut that price and sell for 9g. I will have made a 4g profit, and in this case there isn't even an opportunity loss, because trying to sell at 10g might result in failure to sell at all.

If you cannot sell at 10g it means market price is NOT 10g. Per definition.

It is semantics.

Otherwise in your example even C2 only broke even! You can't measure profit in terms of the potential market value of your goods - a market price that includes profit! - otherwise you'd only make a "profit" if you managed to sell above market price

Profit is income less costs (with some "inventive" tweaking by accountants...).

In your example, if C1 can buy apples for 1g (wholesale price) and sell them on at 5g (market price) then their profit is 4g.

Per definition.

If C2 buys at 8g and sells at 10g then their profit is only 2g

It's why supermarkets can be profitable - buy cheap, sell cheap.

imnotanother · August 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

GwwwsaAaaaaAAAAAA!

TIME HAS A VALUE

There is no such thing as, "free"

Every second you spend farming mats to waste on writs you are NOT doing something MORE profitable

SO in the above arguments, the person farming that keeps saying it's "free" is way off.

To me 1 hour is equivalent to 13 - 20k gold. If i go out. It's to grab roughly 200 mats an hour, I get an average of 1 gold item per stack, so if I do anything and don't get 13k worth of gold, I'm losing money.

Money vanishes out of your bank account?
I get that you are saying, you could have made 20k that hour, but you never actually lost any gold.
Your time is spent how you see it. But in the end, unless you buys mats from a trader, the Cost of goods sold will be
0.

I have the ability to Harvest nodes while questing, grinding, farming, and doing
Dungeons. At all times I can fill my inventory with mats, kill mobs for gold/XP/gear, while gettin CPs.

So you can't really claim opportunity cost either, since you have the ability to do
Multiple things

Lysette · August 2016

This is basically why some get rich and others don't - some value their time, others don't.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

LoL. Again, no.
Because if you register your stocks at retail value you have already increased your assets.

I wish you'd build and sell me a house in NYC at the same price as a house in the middle of nowhere. After all, it's the same amount of manhours, bricks and cement.

Lysette · August 2016

The price of the house is anyway neglectable compared to the price of the property in NYC. It was 90 million US$ per acre in down town Manhattan in 2006.

imnotanother · August 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

LoL. Again, no.
Because if you register your stocks at retail value you have already increased your assets.

I wish you'd build and sell me a house in NYC at the same price as a house in the middle of nowhere. After all, it's the same amount of manhours, bricks and cement.

Not to be rude but are you an accountant?
An asset, in the books, is valued at the
cost to manufacture. This is the Cost of Goods Sold. You can not list an asset's value for higher than the cost to company.

Lysette · August 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Never do you factor in the the retail value when determining your profit.
Because if you valued a stack at 5k and sold it for 5k - expenses = you'd be left with a net loss.

LoL. Again, no.
Because if you register your stocks at retail value you have already increased your assets.

I wish you'd build and sell me a house in NYC at the same price as a house in the middle of nowhere. After all, it's the same amount of manhours, bricks and cement.

Not to be rude but are you an accountant?
An asset, in the books, is valued at the
cost to manufacture. This is the Cost of Goods Sold. You can not list an asset's value for higher than the cost to company.

Yes this is by tax reasons this way - a business person does not have just the tax balance, but as well a business balance, and there things are calculated in a much different way. There is as well a way, to "activate" asset which is far more worth than it's book value - if this is required for some economical purpose - one will do this for example, when you want a larger loan from a bank. The bank is not interested into your tax balance, because that is bogus, it wants to know what your business is really worth.

An example - what is the copyright for windows 10 worth?- if you just would count the production costs you would neglect it's market presence and that it's actual value goes into the hundreds of billions of dollars - while it would be just a few million if it would be counted by production costs.

Smitch_59 · August 2016

Writs or no writs, I still farm mats. I do it mainly to refine them for tempers.

I'm then left with stacks of refined mats, which I can either sell in guild stores or use them for writs. Since I have already achieved my primary purpose (refined mats for tempers), anything leftover is just gravy.

Didn't know I needed an accounting degree to play ESO.

Bouldercleave · August 2016

My REAL problem with writs isn't the perceived net "gain or loss" of completing them.

My issue is why in the heck are we getting inspiration from the top tier writs? If you are already at the top tier in crafting, why would you need inspiration?

If there is a purpose to it, please let me know - but I can't wrap my head around it at all.

Vangy · August 2016

....

Wow you people are still at it lol... The way I see it, if you want to chuck your mats away on these writs, go right ahead. Ive given my POV and advice. Whether you choose to do it my way or your own is entirely up to you....

But one thing is for certain. These writs are FAR less profitable (in my view now a loss) as compared to the writs pre DLC. So my question is WHY the [snip] is it so? Why were writs effectively nerfed?
[edited for profanity bypass]

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

imnotanother wrote: »

But one thing is for certain. These writs are FAR less profitable (in my view now a loss) as compared to the writs pre DLC. So my question is WHY the [snip] is it so? Why were writs effectively nerfed?

This I "know".

Back when Orsinium DLC was on PTS, the tier10 writs were like they are now : requiring 3x VR15 items.

I (among quite a few others) wrote lengthy feedback to ZOS, explaining why it could not possible stay that way, because it was really shooting oneself in the foot (back then, the ONLY way to gain VR15 mats was to farm TelVar stones to buy them, or decon stuff looted on IC mobs at the rate of ONE piece of mat per item looted !!). Back then, ancestor silk was priced 150-200g EACH !!

So ZOS listened and rectified, introducing VR14 mats back into tier 10 equipment writs.

Now things have changed, mats can be "freely" farmed in many places (Wrothgar, Gold Coast, Hew'sBane), they are far more widely available, and prices have gone back to "normal" if not even "cheap". That's why they go back to their original plan of 3 VR15 items per writ.

The problem is : before IC DLC, tier 9 writs were not profitable either !! They had the very same problem. The only reason to do them was to get nirncrux (and to get rid of thousands of excess mats gathered while farming nirncrux). Current tier 10 writ don't have that advantage so yes it's a little bit awkward and misdesigned. It makes little sense to do the writs actually.
[edited to remove quote]

Cryptical · August 2016

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Example
I have thousands of wild blackberry bushes on my property. I go out there in the early summer and am able to pick several pounds (close to 100lbs). This is done on my time for free/fun. My family eats some, we give a lot away to friends/family, and then I sell the rest to my farmers market for money. With your logic, I lost money instead of making a profit. But my heavy wallet says differently.

But like I said, thank you for your concern over my business handling abilities. I'll ensure my employees that you are paying their paychecks this week, since you know more.

I think this analogy is wrong.

Lets say you can sell the blackberries for $1 per pound (sell raw mats). You pick 100 and sell it at the market and make $100 profit.

Or you can make blackberry pies (writs). The pies sell for $2, but each requires 3 lbs of blackberries to make. Your profit is $66.

In both cases you make profit, but in the case of the pies you make less. In this case a loss of $34. Not to mention the time it took to make the pies.

That is not a loss.

At the end of the day you are up $66 or up $100.

Less is not loss.

Walk 1 mile, or walk 1/2 mile. Choosing the half mile does not mean you walked the 1 mile and then backtracked. Derp.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

Smitch_59 wrote: »

Didn't know I needed an accounting degree to play ESO.

You don't : common sense does the trick very well.
Just... not everyone has common sense... (but took accounting classes !! lol)

Cryptical · August 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

GwwwsaAaaaaAAAAAA!

TIME HAS A VALUE

There is no such thing as, "free"

Every second you spend farming mats to waste on writs you are NOT doing something MORE profitable

SO in the above arguments, the person farming that keeps saying it's "free" is way off.

To me 1 hour is equivalent to 13 - 20k gold. If i go out. It's to grab roughly 200 mats an hour, I get an average of 1 gold item per stack, so if I do anything and don't get 13k worth of gold, I'm losing money.

This is the epitome of entitlement thinking. To think that your starting point is 13k per hour and anything less is something that has been taken from you by some manner or method, as if you are entitled to receive 13k-plus for every hour you 'spend' on ESO.

Eso doesn't owe you that. It certainly isn't obligated to cater to your delusional idea of the self-determined worth of your time.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

At the end of the day you are up $66 or up $100.
Less is not loss.

OK. Fine. Let's not call it a loss then. Simply call it an obviously very bad decision, business-wise.
Why the heck would ANYONE choose the less profitable option ??? (especially if you don't serve anyone by doing so. I can understand someone making friends, family and neighbours happy by giving them berries for free or cheap, but I can't understand someone throwing berries away or selling them cheaper than they could for no reason).

In the example of the cake, cooking them DECREASES their value so obviously it is wasted time, energy, and in the end, money. Bad business decisions (even if the wallet isn't thinner at the end of the day).

Back to topic : Crafting writs (or any other stuff to do in ESO) should NOT be designed as a bad decision for the player.