@ZOS, please consider lifting the 'exploit' tag from gap closers
Grao
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Everyone, before you start raging down bellow, read the entire post please!
So, as we in the forums are all well aware, gap closers are now all bugged and allow a player not only to gap close to the top of the walls in Cyrodiil, but also allow players to go through walls. Now, I am not in favor of using unintended coding to gain an advantage and I actually hardly ever PvP in this game, but this has become such a huge issue, it detracts a little (and by a little, I mean a lot) from issues like cheating (using Cheat Engine).
Considering, one, that Zenimax is clearly not able to fix this bug with their coding (as DKs have been able to gap close on to walls with Wings since Beta, over two years ago), and two, that the company is more than a little reluctant to communicate to the entire player base about the issues with gap closers and the punishment that may ensue use of exploits, I think allowing people to use the broken abilities as they are, while not an ideal solution, at least it levels the playing field. Currently though, players that follow the rules are punished in game by those violating the rules and those breaking the TOS escape with a warning, that when they even get a warning (at least that is the impression I have).
At the same time, to prevent abuse, it would be great if ZOS implemented an anti - spy mechanics. Say they add an option to report someone to an automatic system for spying, if the person gets 20 or so reports from their own faction, they get booted from Cyrodiil and are kept from queuing back in to Cyrodiil on that and any other character for at least half an hour. That should dissuade people from logging into alts to let friends break into keeps and give us an alternative to raging when we see obvious spies working against us in Cyrodiil.
All this to allow Zenimax to focus on punishing those using CE and to help dilute a little the toxicity all this is generating in PvP. Many of us believe that using exploits should be punished, and many of us also believe Zenimax is to blame for this mess we are in as they inserted this bug in the game knowing it would generate problems. I think removing gap closers from the exploit list allowing everyone to take advantage of the bug freely is the best alternative we have right now, one ZOS should be able to live with if they are brave enough and one players should be able to live with, as at least it keeps those willing to violate the TOS from having an unfair advantage.
Edited by Grao on July 12, 2016 7:25PM So, as we in the forums are all well aware, gap closers are now all bugged and allow a player not only to gap close to the top of the walls in Cyrodiil, but also allow players to go through walls. Now, I am not in favor of using unintended coding to gain an advantage and I actually hardly ever PvP in this game, but this has become such a huge issue, it detracts a little (and by a little, I mean a lot) from issues like cheating (using Cheat Engine).
Considering, one, that Zenimax is clearly not able to fix this bug with their coding (as DKs have been able to gap close on to walls with Wings since Beta, over two years ago), and two, that the company is more than a little reluctant to communicate to the entire player base about the issues with gap closers and the punishment that may ensue use of exploits, I think allowing people to use the broken abilities as they are, while not an ideal solution, at least it levels the playing field. Currently though, players that follow the rules are punished in game by those violating the rules and those breaking the TOS escape with a warning, that when they even get a warning (at least that is the impression I have).
At the same time, to prevent abuse, it would be great if ZOS implemented an anti - spy mechanics. Say they add an option to report someone to an automatic system for spying, if the person gets 20 or so reports from their own faction, they get booted from Cyrodiil and are kept from queuing back in to Cyrodiil on that and any other character for at least half an hour. That should dissuade people from logging into alts to let friends break into keeps and give us an alternative to raging when we see obvious spies working against us in Cyrodiil.
All this to allow Zenimax to focus on punishing those using CE and to help dilute a little the toxicity all this is generating in PvP. Many of us believe that using exploits should be punished, and many of us also believe Zenimax is to blame for this mess we are in as they inserted this bug in the game knowing it would generate problems. I think removing gap closers from the exploit list allowing everyone to take advantage of the bug freely is the best alternative we have right now, one ZOS should be able to live with if they are brave enough and one players should be able to live with, as at least it keeps those willing to violate the TOS from having an unfair advantage.
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Thevorpal1✭✭✭I have zero problem pvping and not abusing a gap closer to circumvent keep capturing mechanics.
I know right from wrong.
/no sympathy here18 -
Necrelios✭✭✭✭✭Instead of getting booted from a campaign, I think if someone gets reported for spying enough times they should go "rogue" and become killable by all factions. Payback time ya son of a betty netch. Skeevers gonnna skeeve though, so watcha gonna do.Terms & Conditions ["We revoke permission to fictional legal constructs or private/public persons for selling of any private data, censorship, surveillance, personage or conversion as a trespass of law. We prohibit the practice of "procedural law" or corporate statues in place of divine law."]5 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭At the same time, to prevent abuse, it would be great if ZOS implemented an anti - spy mechanics. Say they add an option to report someone to an automatic system for spying, if the person gets 20 or so reports from their own faction, they get booted from Cyrodiil and are kept from queuing back in to Cyrodiil on that and any other character for at least half an hour. That should dissuade people from logging into alts to let friends break into keeps and give us an alternative to raging when we see obvious spies working against us in Cyrodiil.
While I'm in favor of a concept like this, it would be far too easy for a group of players to use this mechanic punitively.7 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thevorpal1 wrote: »I have zero problem pvping and not abusing a gap closer to circumvent keep capturing mechanics.
I know right from wrong.
/no sympathy here
Hey, no sympathy either, but it is clear Zenimax is not willing to enforce their rules very strongly. They don't want to ban everyone using the gap closers exploit, why they are not sending out a warning to the community about this problem. When it is time to announce new crown store items they are not shy from Emailing the entire player base, the could do the same about gap closers, but they choose not to. They could send an in game mail to every character in their game very easily as well, they choose not to. They want players to have the excuse of being unaware gap closing on to walls and through doors is considered an exploit. This 'solution'... It is a compromise, nothing more.Instead of getting booted from a campaign, I think if someone gets reported for spying enough times they should go "rogue" and become killable by all factions. Payback time ya son of a betty netch. Skeevers gonnna skeeve though, so watcha gonna do.
Probably too much coding involved in that. I think someone getting booted from Cyrodiil and have their account unable to join PvP for a time is a better punishment and easier to accomplish.starkerealm wrote: »At the same time, to prevent abuse, it would be great if ZOS implemented an anti - spy mechanics. Say they add an option to report someone to an automatic system for spying, if the person gets 20 or so reports from their own faction, they get booted from Cyrodiil and are kept from queuing back in to Cyrodiil on that and any other character for at least half an hour. That should dissuade people from logging into alts to let friends break into keeps and give us an alternative to raging when we see obvious spies working against us in Cyrodiil.
While I'm in favor of a concept like this, it would be far too easy for a group of players to use this mechanic punitively.
The number of players needed to activate the 'spy debuff' could be played with and players that reported one person can't report another for at least an hour, for example. That wouldn't prevent abuse, maybe, but it should diminish it?Edited by Grao on July 12, 2016 7:41PM0 -
FloppyFrank✭✭✭Instead of getting booted from a campaign, I think if someone gets reported for spying enough times they should go "rogue" and become killable by all factions. Payback time ya son of a betty netch. Skeevers gonnna skeeve though, so watcha gonna do.
Or what if... Hear me out man... What if ZO$ just fixed their *** and didn't punish people who use the gap close bug? But that'll never happen
[Edit to remove bashing]Edited by [Deleted User] on July 12, 2016 9:24PMXbone GT: x mech duck x2 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭FloppyFrank wrote: »Instead of getting booted from a campaign, I think if someone gets reported for spying enough times they should go "rogue" and become killable by all factions. Payback time ya son of a betty netch. Skeevers gonnna skeeve though, so watcha gonna do.
Or what if... Hear me out man... What if ZO$ just fixed their *** and didn't punish people who use the gap close bug? But that'll never happen
Spying is not a bug, it is the action of an individual aiming to undermine the faction they are supposed to be fighting for. Realistically spying is a reality, but when a spy is caught, they are either imprisoned or executed. Since adding that to the game would demand too much coding, a temporary ban of 30 minutes from PVP does not seem excessive.
As for the issue with gap closers, yes... Zenimax should fix their bugs, but clearly they can't do it very easily. This solutions seem easier to implement than ZOS's current stance.Edited by [Deleted User] on July 12, 2016 9:25PM0 -
Alpheu5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭At the same time, to prevent abuse, it would be great if ZOS implemented an anti - spy mechanics. Say they add an option to report someone to an automatic system for spying, if the person gets 20 or so reports from their own faction, they get booted from Cyrodiil and are kept from queuing back in to Cyrodiil on that and any other character for at least half an hour. That should dissuade people from logging into alts to let friends break into keeps and give us an alternative to raging when we see obvious spies working against us in Cyrodiil.
This would be abused so hard, so fast. I can already think of a few instances where this would be used wrongly:
1) A guild is trying to farm AP for one of their guildies to get emp, but a non-guildie is at the top of the leaderboard with a 150k lead. Get him booted for "X" time and close the gap, or even better, have them removed from the leaderboard entirely.
2) A group on Faction-X has a bunch of people log onto their Faction-Y alts to boot the emperor of Faction-Y to make taking keeps easier for Faction-X.
3) Someone that PVPs seriously on multiple factions could easily be accused of spying just because they have alts, period.Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian DragonknightJudas Helviaryn wrote: »Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.3 -
Alpheu5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Instead of getting booted from a campaign, I think if someone gets reported for spying enough times they should go "rogue" and become killable by all factions. Payback time ya son of a betty netch. Skeevers gonnna skeeve though, so watcha gonna do.
If that meant being able to attack everybody, including my own faction, I'd totally want this. Inner-faction duels anyone?Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian DragonknightJudas Helviaryn wrote: »Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.1 -
Thevorpal1✭✭✭Thevorpal1 wrote: »I have zero problem pvping and not abusing a gap closer to circumvent keep capturing mechanics.
I know right from wrong.
/no sympathy here
Hey, no sympathy either, but it is clear Zenimax is not willing to enforce their rules very strongly. They don't want to ban everyone using the gap closers exploit, why they are not sending out a warning to the community about this problem. When it is time to announce new crown store items they are not shy from Emailing the entire player base, the could do the same about gap closers, but they choose not to. They could send an in game mail to every character in their game very easily as well, they choose not to. They want players to have the excuse of being unaware gap closing on to walls and through doors is considered an exploit. This 'solution'... It is a compromise, nothing more.Instead of getting booted from a campaign, I think if someone gets reported for spying enough times they should go "rogue" and become killable by all factions. Payback time ya son of a betty netch. Skeevers gonnna skeeve though, so watcha gonna do.
Probably too much coding involved in that. I think someone getting booted from Cyrodiil and have their account unable to join PvP for a time is a better punishment and easier to accomplish.
I don't need an email telling me a bug is considered an exploit. You only need to rub 2 braincells together to know this is not an intended mechanic, and to exploit it could jeapordize your account standing.
Think you need to read the TOS again because exploits are covered in it. We are required to report them, not abuse them.
Edited by Thevorpal1 on July 12, 2016 7:51PM3 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭At the same time, to prevent abuse, it would be great if ZOS implemented an anti - spy mechanics. Say they add an option to report someone to an automatic system for spying, if the person gets 20 or so reports from their own faction, they get booted from Cyrodiil and are kept from queuing back in to Cyrodiil on that and any other character for at least half an hour. That should dissuade people from logging into alts to let friends break into keeps and give us an alternative to raging when we see obvious spies working against us in Cyrodiil.
This would be abused so hard, so fast. I can already think of a few instances where this would be used wrongly:
1) A guild is trying to farm AP for one of their guildies to get emp, but a non-guildie is at the top of the leaderboard with a 150k lead. Get him booted for "X" time and close the gap, or even better, have them removed from the leaderboard entirely.
2) A group on Faction-X has a bunch of people log onto their Faction-Y alts to boot the emperor of Faction-Y to make taking keeps easier for Faction-X.
3) Someone that PVPs seriously on multiple factions could easily be accused of spying just because they have alts, period.
Do you have a better solution? You can make so sending false reports to the 'spy bot' earns you negative points maybe and if you accumulate too many of those you get prevented from using the system for good plus gets a warning on your player file as intentionally submitting false reports of cheating is surely against the TOS?0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thevorpal1 wrote: »Thevorpal1 wrote: »I have zero problem pvping and not abusing a gap closer to circumvent keep capturing mechanics.
I know right from wrong.
/no sympathy here
Hey, no sympathy either, but it is clear Zenimax is not willing to enforce their rules very strongly. They don't want to ban everyone using the gap closers exploit, why they are not sending out a warning to the community about this problem. When it is time to announce new crown store items they are not shy from Emailing the entire player base, the could do the same about gap closers, but they choose not to. They could send an in game mail to every character in their game very easily as well, they choose not to. They want players to have the excuse of being unaware gap closing on to walls and through doors is considered an exploit. This 'solution'... It is a compromise, nothing more.Instead of getting booted from a campaign, I think if someone gets reported for spying enough times they should go "rogue" and become killable by all factions. Payback time ya son of a betty netch. Skeevers gonnna skeeve though, so watcha gonna do.
Probably too much coding involved in that. I think someone getting booted from Cyrodiil and have their account unable to join PvP for a time is a better punishment and easier to accomplish.
I don't need an email telling me a bug is considered an exploit. You only need to rub 2 braincells together to know this is not an intended mechanic, and to exploit it could jeapordize your account standing.
Think you need to read the TOS again because exploits are covered in it. We are required to report them, not abuse them.
Rules are written for idiots and thus they have to be idiot proof. If they want the community to know that gap closing on to the top of a wall is an exploit, they have to do better at communicating it. It can't be through ESO Live or their Forums, it needs to be through In Game Mail or Emails or even Game Alerts.1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Roehamad_Ali wrote: »Anti spying system ? Huh
Hey, spies are a problem. They were a problem even before this gap closer debacle and currently there are no tools in the game to handle them.0 -
InvitationNotFound✭✭✭✭✭
✭what the hell did i read here?
how about no?
exploitation went on for way too long without any punishment. your statement now is "let's exploit the sh** out of the game, let us all exploit and take advantage of it". seriously?
you believe your great system of spy reporting can't be abused? oh you know, i don't like that guy and so does my guild. seriously?
there are issues with the way they deal with it (regarding communication to name one). but what you obviously want is to ignore exploits and label it okay for whatever *****d up reason you have.
regarding the mess ZOS created. well, they did. not for the first time. so you think that legitimates exploitation? no, it doesn't.
even if they wouldn't have introduced that mess, you would have bugs in the game, which might be exploitable. software always has bugs. and guess what, they are always introduced by the developer. according to this, you suggest we can keep exploiting the sh** out of the game?We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome... - The Wrobler
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Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since Zenimax has already confirmed that abusing the Gap Closer exploit is a possible bannable offense, I seriously doubt they will back track on it. Besides, it's hard enough to take out a player with Emp buffs as it is let alone when they can get into a keep any time they want. Thanks but my vote is no on abusing gap closers.NA Server - Kildair2 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭InvitationNotFound wrote: »what the hell did i read here?
how about no?
exploitation went on for way too long without any punishment. your statement now is "let's exploit the sh** out of the game, let us all exploit and take advantage of it". seriously?
you believe your great system of spy reporting can't be abused? oh you know, i don't like that guy and so does my guild. seriously?
there are issues with the way they deal with it (regarding communication to name one). but what you obviously want is to ignore exploits and label it okay for whatever *****d up reason you have.
regarding the mess ZOS created. well, they did. not for the first time. so you think that legitimates exploitation? no, it doesn't.
even if they wouldn't have introduced that mess, you would have bugs in the game, which might be exploitable. software always has bugs. and guess what, they are always introduced by the developer. according to this, you suggest we can keep exploiting the sh** out of the game?
One of those Ragers I knew we'd get that didn't stop to consider this could actually improve things a little.
First of all, I already said I am against exploiting, that doesn't mean I am blind to the situation Zenimax has created. They don't dare advertise to all their players that there is a issue with gap closers they haven't been able to patch because, first, this may cause more people to use said exploit, and second, it makes ZOS look even more incompetent, which is bad for the game.
My point on regularizing this particular exploit is very simple, there are too many people using it at this point for Zenimax to ban everyone. It won't happen, to expect them to do it is ridiculous and unrealistic. Even the streamers are doing it all the time and you must know ZOS can't lose those as they are free advertising to their game.
Regularizing gap closers would at least allow everyone to use them and it should diminish the toxicity in PvP and even here in the forums. It is not ideal, no. Ideally ZOS wouldn't have released this bug, but hey, ideally ZOS would have better coders than they have and this game would be far better than it is. This is a solution players and the company can probably live with as at least it is fair to everyone.
As for the anti spy system, yes... It has problems, alas, it we currently have nothing that allows us to handle spies. I am just getting the ball rolling on having a system that does give us resources to handle said problem, if you have a better idea, go right ahead and explain it. Remember to make it somewhat easy to code though...0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since Zenimax has already confirmed that abusing the Gap Closer exploit is a possible bannable offense, I seriously doubt they will back track on it. Besides, it's hard enough to take out a player with Emp buffs as it is let alone when they can get into a keep any time they want. Thanks but my vote is no on abusing gap closers.
They said that in ESO Live and in the Forums... Do you know how small a portion of the ESO community actually takes part on the forums or watches that useless show? If they truly wanted to communicate to us on this issue, they'd send emails, like they do when they want to sell us Crown Store Items. I get emails for that all the time.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭At the same time, to prevent abuse, it would be great if ZOS implemented an anti - spy mechanics. Say they add an option to report someone to an automatic system for spying, if the person gets 20 or so reports from their own faction, they get booted from Cyrodiil and are kept from queuing back in to Cyrodiil on that and any other character for at least half an hour. That should dissuade people from logging into alts to let friends break into keeps and give us an alternative to raging when we see obvious spies working against us in Cyrodiil.
This would be abused so hard, so fast. I can already think of a few instances where this would be used wrongly:
1) A guild is trying to farm AP for one of their guildies to get emp, but a non-guildie is at the top of the leaderboard with a 150k lead. Get him booted for "X" time and close the gap, or even better, have them removed from the leaderboard entirely.
2) A group on Faction-X has a bunch of people log onto their Faction-Y alts to boot the emperor of Faction-Y to make taking keeps easier for Faction-X.
3) Someone that PVPs seriously on multiple factions could easily be accused of spying just because they have alts, period.
Do you have a better solution? You can make so sending false reports to the 'spy bot' earns you negative points maybe and if you accumulate too many of those you get prevented from using the system for good plus gets a warning on your player file as intentionally submitting false reports of cheating is surely against the TOS?
How do you determine if a report was false? The fact remains, a player can log into Teamspeak, then an off faction alt, and then feed information back to their guild without taking any action in game that exposes their role as a spy.
With an MMO, you cannot vest players with ban authority of any kind. They will abuse it. Requiring multiple simultaneous reports only forces them to be more coordinated about it.
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Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »At the same time, to prevent abuse, it would be great if ZOS implemented an anti - spy mechanics. Say they add an option to report someone to an automatic system for spying, if the person gets 20 or so reports from their own faction, they get booted from Cyrodiil and are kept from queuing back in to Cyrodiil on that and any other character for at least half an hour. That should dissuade people from logging into alts to let friends break into keeps and give us an alternative to raging when we see obvious spies working against us in Cyrodiil.
This would be abused so hard, so fast. I can already think of a few instances where this would be used wrongly:
1) A guild is trying to farm AP for one of their guildies to get emp, but a non-guildie is at the top of the leaderboard with a 150k lead. Get him booted for "X" time and close the gap, or even better, have them removed from the leaderboard entirely.
2) A group on Faction-X has a bunch of people log onto their Faction-Y alts to boot the emperor of Faction-Y to make taking keeps easier for Faction-X.
3) Someone that PVPs seriously on multiple factions could easily be accused of spying just because they have alts, period.
Do you have a better solution? You can make so sending false reports to the 'spy bot' earns you negative points maybe and if you accumulate too many of those you get prevented from using the system for good plus gets a warning on your player file as intentionally submitting false reports of cheating is surely against the TOS?
How do you determine if a report was false? The fact remains, a player can log into Teamspeak, then an off faction alt, and then feed information back to their guild without taking any action in game that exposes their role as a spy.
With an MMO, you cannot vest players with ban authority of any kind. They will abuse it. Requiring multiple simultaneous reports only forces them to be more coordinated about it.
it is a 30 minute long ban... It could be made even shorter. It is mostly to inconvenience someone that is truly spying, not to severely punish them as gamers. Spying is... Reprehensible, but it is an accepted tactic in war.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As for the anti spy system, yes... It has problems, alas, it we currently have nothing that allows us to handle spies. I am just getting the ball rolling on having a system that does give us resources to handle said problem, if you have a better idea, go right ahead and explain it. Remember to make it somewhat easy to code though...
You want to deal with spies? One word, "opsec." Stop telling people all your plans in zone and the danger of spies diminishes rapidly.
You want to expand the role of spies so that they actually have a codified function in game, and can be dealt with? For instance, if you could false flag yourself, and move around in enemy territory, but could then be exposed and killed, all for bonus AP, and a cut of AP based information you fed back to your faction? That'd be cool and interesting.
Allowing players to ban others from Cyrodiil on a whim, or engage in witch hunts without consequence? Yeah, I'm going with "not so much."2 -
Runs✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FloppyFrank wrote: »Instead of getting booted from a campaign, I think if someone gets reported for spying enough times they should go "rogue" and become killable by all factions. Payback time ya son of a betty netch. Skeevers gonnna skeeve though, so watcha gonna do.
Or what if... Hear me out man... What if ZO$ just fixed their *** and didn't punish people who use the gap close bug? But that'll never happen
Or what if... Hear me out man... What if people stopped cheating, and blaming it on the their ability to do so? But that'll never happen so I guess *** cheaters.Edited by [Deleted User] on July 12, 2016 9:25PMRuns| Orc Nightblade • Chim-el Adabal| Dunmer Templar • M'air the Honest| Khajiit Templar
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Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »As for the anti spy system, yes... It has problems, alas, it we currently have nothing that allows us to handle spies. I am just getting the ball rolling on having a system that does give us resources to handle said problem, if you have a better idea, go right ahead and explain it. Remember to make it somewhat easy to code though...
You want to deal with spies? One word, "opsec." Stop telling people all your plans in zone and the danger of spies diminishes rapidly.
You want to expand the role of spies so that they actually have a codified function in game, and can be dealt with? For instance, if you could false flag yourself, and move around in enemy territory, but could then be exposed and killed, all for bonus AP, and a cut of AP based information you fed back to your faction? That'd be cool and interesting.
Allowing players to ban others from Cyrodiil on a whim, or engage in witch hunts without consequence? Yeah, I'm going with "not so much."
We are not just talking about that kind of spy right now though, thanks to Zenimax. Right now we have spies that infiltrate your alliance with the sole purpose of leaving the doors to your keeps opened so enemies can steal your scrolls or take over your castles.
Thanks to the gap closer debacle, we have a new style of raiding going on in Cyrodiil, a player from alliance A will log into an alt of alliance B to let all A's gap close on them into the keeps of the B's. That is currently a form of spying, one that is being used quite a bit...0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭FloppyFrank wrote: »Instead of getting booted from a campaign, I think if someone gets reported for spying enough times they should go "rogue" and become killable by all factions. Payback time ya son of a betty netch. Skeevers gonnna skeeve though, so watcha gonna do.
Or what if... Hear me out man... What if ZO$ just fixed their *** and didn't punish people who use the gap close bug? But that'll never happen, so I guess *** ZO$
Or what if... Hear me out man... What if people stopped cheating, and blaming it on the their ability to do so? But that'll never happen so I guess *** cheaters.
Cheating has to be discouraged through punishment. As Zenimax is not willing to even fully disclose on the gap closing issue to the entire player base, even less punish those using this exploit, no... It won't happen.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »At the same time, to prevent abuse, it would be great if ZOS implemented an anti - spy mechanics. Say they add an option to report someone to an automatic system for spying, if the person gets 20 or so reports from their own faction, they get booted from Cyrodiil and are kept from queuing back in to Cyrodiil on that and any other character for at least half an hour. That should dissuade people from logging into alts to let friends break into keeps and give us an alternative to raging when we see obvious spies working against us in Cyrodiil.
This would be abused so hard, so fast. I can already think of a few instances where this would be used wrongly:
1) A guild is trying to farm AP for one of their guildies to get emp, but a non-guildie is at the top of the leaderboard with a 150k lead. Get him booted for "X" time and close the gap, or even better, have them removed from the leaderboard entirely.
2) A group on Faction-X has a bunch of people log onto their Faction-Y alts to boot the emperor of Faction-Y to make taking keeps easier for Faction-X.
3) Someone that PVPs seriously on multiple factions could easily be accused of spying just because they have alts, period.
Do you have a better solution? You can make so sending false reports to the 'spy bot' earns you negative points maybe and if you accumulate too many of those you get prevented from using the system for good plus gets a warning on your player file as intentionally submitting false reports of cheating is surely against the TOS?
How do you determine if a report was false? The fact remains, a player can log into Teamspeak, then an off faction alt, and then feed information back to their guild without taking any action in game that exposes their role as a spy.
With an MMO, you cannot vest players with ban authority of any kind. They will abuse it. Requiring multiple simultaneous reports only forces them to be more coordinated about it.
it is a 30 minute long ban... It could be made even shorter. It is mostly to inconvenience someone that is truly spying, not to severely punish them as gamers. Spying is... Reprehensible, but it is an accepted tactic in war.
How do you know it's 30 minutes?
Well... 30 minutes is what I suggested. It could be less, it could be more. I just wish there were more tools in the game to handle spies, reporting them is useless right now.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »As for the anti spy system, yes... It has problems, alas, it we currently have nothing that allows us to handle spies. I am just getting the ball rolling on having a system that does give us resources to handle said problem, if you have a better idea, go right ahead and explain it. Remember to make it somewhat easy to code though...
You want to deal with spies? One word, "opsec." Stop telling people all your plans in zone and the danger of spies diminishes rapidly.
You want to expand the role of spies so that they actually have a codified function in game, and can be dealt with? For instance, if you could false flag yourself, and move around in enemy territory, but could then be exposed and killed, all for bonus AP, and a cut of AP based information you fed back to your faction? That'd be cool and interesting.
Allowing players to ban others from Cyrodiil on a whim, or engage in witch hunts without consequence? Yeah, I'm going with "not so much."
We are not just talking about that kind of spy right now though, thanks to Zenimax. Right now we have spies that infiltrate your alliance with the sole purpose of leaving the doors to your keeps opened so enemies can steal your scrolls or take over your castles.
Thanks to the gap closer debacle, we have a new style of raiding going on in Cyrodiil, a player from alliance A will log into an alt of alliance B to let all A's gap close on them into the keeps of the B's. That is currently a form of spying, one that is being used quite a bit...
And the player doing the gap closing is already committing a bannible offense. Which ZOS is looking at. What you're describing would, by design, necessitate a situation where players could at best ban other players from Cyrodiil as retribution. To say nothing of the potential aggressive uses for this. Like picking off leaderboard competition.1 -
iam117✭✭✭/signed about gap closers, unless they are willing to address the entire community through game or email then they should not be putting it as an exploit to report those who have been using it and will not see that it will be treated as such now, not saying its right to use it, but zenimax's decision on how to address the community (a small portion of it anyways) is wrong. they need to address everyone, so everyone is aware of it, or they need to fix it, really they need to do both.<Liv3mind><PC/NA - Legion Of The Bloodworks>Snowflake Patrol1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »As for the anti spy system, yes... It has problems, alas, it we currently have nothing that allows us to handle spies. I am just getting the ball rolling on having a system that does give us resources to handle said problem, if you have a better idea, go right ahead and explain it. Remember to make it somewhat easy to code though...
You want to deal with spies? One word, "opsec." Stop telling people all your plans in zone and the danger of spies diminishes rapidly.
You want to expand the role of spies so that they actually have a codified function in game, and can be dealt with? For instance, if you could false flag yourself, and move around in enemy territory, but could then be exposed and killed, all for bonus AP, and a cut of AP based information you fed back to your faction? That'd be cool and interesting.
Allowing players to ban others from Cyrodiil on a whim, or engage in witch hunts without consequence? Yeah, I'm going with "not so much."
We are not just talking about that kind of spy right now though, thanks to Zenimax. Right now we have spies that infiltrate your alliance with the sole purpose of leaving the doors to your keeps opened so enemies can steal your scrolls or take over your castles.
Thanks to the gap closer debacle, we have a new style of raiding going on in Cyrodiil, a player from alliance A will log into an alt of alliance B to let all A's gap close on them into the keeps of the B's. That is currently a form of spying, one that is being used quite a bit...
And the player doing the gap closing is already committing a bannible offense. Which ZOS is looking at. What you're describing would, by design, necessitate a situation where players could at best ban other players from Cyrodiil as retribution. To say nothing of the potential aggressive uses for this. Like picking off leaderboard competition.
As I said, this was just a suggestion in a threat that is more about how to handle the gap closing issue. ^^
I do believe ESO should have some tools to handle spies, but that is not why I wrote this thread, it just seemed pertinent to address this particular way of using the gap closing exploit, but it is clearly deviating too much the narrative here.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭/signed about gap closers, unless they are willing to address the entire community through game or email then they should not be putting it as an exploit to report those who have been using it and will not see that it will be treated as such now, not saying its right to use it, but zenimax's decision on how to address the community (a small portion of it anyways) is wrong. they need to address everyone, so everyone is aware of it, or they need to fix it, really they need to do both.
Thanks for returning us to the real subject of this thread @liv3mind ! And yes, that is precisely my point, it is apparent that ZOS doesn't want to send out a an email or an in game mail concerning this issue, likely because they believe it generates bad PR, so... We need a different solution. Until Zenimax can fix gap closers or until they feel confident enough to talk openly to their players... I think legalizing the use of gap closers as they are is the best solution we can get.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As I said, this was just a suggestion in a threat that is more about how to handle the gap closing issue. ^^
The gap closer issue needs to be dealt with. I don't think anyone's questioning that. But, the suggestion you made was (or appeared to be) to ignore that problem entirely, and instead allow players to go off on members of their own alliance in Cyrodiil.
Now, if that was your intent, it's a terrible suggestion, which is what people are telling you. If that wasn't your suggestion, then you need to rethink, and rephrase your idea.
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