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THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAY TO WIN AND PAY FOR EXTRA HARMLESS PERKS

CokeVoAYCE
CokeVoAYCE
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seems a lot of people don't understand this.

pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics

pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay

so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.
  • aubrey.baconb16_ESO
    Hey I have a craft bag but I still don't win. What am I doing wrong OP?
  • InvitationNotFound
    InvitationNotFound
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    Hey I have a craft bag but I still don't win. What am I doing wrong OP?

    typical l2p issue...
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  • TheDarkoil
    TheDarkoil
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    10% Experience boost isn't pay to win in the slightest as their are plenty of ways within the game to get experience boosts. Pay to win to me is selling stuff like weapons and armor which is overpowered and only available from the shop or stuff like stat buffs which are also overpowered and only available from the shop.
  • FloppyTouch
    FloppyTouch
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    Is this a troll post? :/ I'm bad with sarcasm.
  • Leandor
    Leandor
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    I have been playing 2 years without crafting bags, in the process researching every single trait and stocking up materials for every level range, every motif, every trait, every craft, to the point where except from golden upgrade materials, I never had to buy a single craft material for over a year. And that is with now 6 chars at max level, 5 of which were V16 before the conversion to CP and all of them are fully equipped in V16 (or CP 160) items, mostly crafted.

    How? It's called inventory management and two mules. I still have not maxed my bank space and none of my chars has more than 170 inventory spaces, since the last three upgrades are not worth it in my view.

    Get a grip. The crafting bag is fantastic and it's a worthy perk for subscription. It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with P2W. I shouldn't feel this way, but this constant bickering about the crafting bags has become my worst pet peeve on these forums.

    Let. It. Rest.
    Edited by Leandor on June 27, 2016 8:42AM
  • andreasv
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    Do we really have to bring this up again? I didn't think it was a big issue recently. And all in capitals as well?
  • craftycarper73
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    i am confused, how does a craft bag help you win?

    its not like we have all been given say, the maelstrom weapons, with the best traits on for subbing, now that would be pay 2 win.

    i think your confused just as i am OP.
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  • jircris11
    jircris11
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    Lol p2w is something that gives you an unfair advantage over others. Gear/instant max levels/perks that grant a higher ranking or point gain in pvp/gold, or any thing of that nature. The current sub offers a laughable 10%xp and a creating bag that honestly just Frees up bank space. it is people such as your self who cry p2w because you are unable to comprehend the meaning. I can use many mmos as examples but I'll use blade and soul. 20 bucks gets me over 400 guild. Something that takes time to farm. Due to this an unfair advantage over those who need to farm. Or league of angels, cash items there add stats. Making free members unable to compete in pvp.
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  • Molag_Crow
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    I see different levels of the definition of 'pay to win.'
    • Paying IRL cash for strong in-game armor, weapons, abilities/spells and stronger stats/damage than a free-to-play player.
    • Paying IRL cash for materials and ingredients to craft the best armor/weapons (legendary) and paying for in-game gold and buying an instant max character level boost.
    • Paying IRL cash for more XP (I'd say 20%+ is over the line, personally) more in-game gold earned from kills and quests, more flashy cosmetic effects/a symbol next to your name to show that you're a subscriber, faster mount speed and other perks such as teleportation etc.
    • Paying IRL cash for a slight (10%(?)) XP, Gold, Reputation (inspiration) boost, access to DLCs, free costume dyes and an additional bag to put all of your crafting materials in, saving bag space to spend more time actually playing the game rather than playing the bank/vendor game, every so often.
    Edited by Molag_Crow on June 27, 2016 8:51AM
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  • Bromburak
    Bromburak
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    You totally misunderstand P2W terminology.

    CokeVoAYCE wrote: »
    seems a lot of people don't understand this.

    pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags

    pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier

    If the game is easier you exactly win against who? Your self? :/
    Edited by Bromburak on June 27, 2016 8:54AM
  • ADarklore
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    In regards to XP gain via ESO+, I think OP is suggesting that the extra 10% increases your CP gain and thus makes a player stronger. However, in reality, 10% offers extremely little advantage that it's hardly noticeable. Yet, I think what some disgruntled players are doing is trying to find anything under the sun they can use to justify their belief that craft bags and costume dying is an 'unfair advantage' for ESO+ members. Yet, all they would have to do is sub to gain the same exact benefits.
    CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
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  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    In my eyes, P2W is anything that can be bought that gives a player a competitive advantage in a way that is also unobtainable thru in-game means.

    XP boosts and the crafting bag don't fall into a P2W thing for me because XP is easy to earn and crafting bags, while nice, don't give any real advantage in a competitive sense.

    If ZOS was to release something like Daedric Artifacts into the Crown store that were outright BiS with no alternative being even remotely close and not obtainable in game, that would be P2W.
    Argonian forever
  • Ommy71
    Ommy71
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    Caps-lock is p2w.
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  • Lenikus
    Lenikus
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    10% more exp doesn't make vMaelstrom arena 10% easier...
    Exp bonuses are convenience related, not win-related.

    It's only pay to win if you can buy gear in the Crown store that's SUPERIOR to current crafted or droped sets.
    (Buying maelstrom weapons of the trait you want in crown store will still not be p2w)
    ... Mai cave. >:3
  • Kas
    Kas
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    pay for extra: dota 2
    pay to win: browser/mobile games, *** like archage etc

    middle ground: eso, lol, etc

    basically you pay for actual advantages. however, if you imagine a hard core player, eso plus gives no advantage in a battle. with the cp cap being as low as it is, both will long have eclipsed the cap. the money spend on horse/style/whatever is eclipsed by the cost for anything else and, more importantly, BIS gear is either fairly easy to obtain (gold-wise) or behind a BoP/RNG grind that is no different for eso plus members. i.e. the ceiling is just as reachable for non-paying players. not only theoretically, but also in practice.
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  • FloppyTouch
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    U can also craft exp potion in game for free just going to put that out there even though I'm sure this is s troll post
  • CokeVoAYCE
    CokeVoAYCE
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    Molag_Crow wrote: »
    I see different levels of the definition of 'pay to win.'
    • Paying IRL cash for strong in-game armor, weapons, abilities/spells and stronger stats/damage than a free-to-play player.
    • Paying IRL cash for materials and ingredients to craft the best armor/weapons (legendary) and paying for in-game gold and buying an instant max character level boost.
    • Paying IRL cash for more XP (I'd say 20%+ is over the line, personally) more in-game gold earned from kills and quests, more flashy cosmetic effects/a symbol next to your name to show that you're a subscriber, faster mount speed and other perks such as teleportation etc.
    • Paying IRL cash for a slight (10%(?)) XP, Gold, Reputation (inspiration) boost, access to DLCs, free costume dyes and an additional bag to put all of your crafting materials in, saving bag space to spend more time actually playing the game rather than playing the bank/vendor game, every so often.

    exactly, that's my point. there's different degrees of pay to win, but it's still pay to win. most MMOs are pay to win, including ESO. the debate is on whether they're going or have gone too far pay to win. i'm just trying to point out that this game still is pay to win.
  • Darlon
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    I think the OP is confused about what pay to win actually means.

    Crafting bags for instance don't make me a better player in pvp (or pve). it is a convenience, and has nothing to do with 'winning'.
    Edited by Darlon on June 27, 2016 9:11AM
  • xxxdcxxx
    xxxdcxxx
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    I dont know whether this is p2w or not but I think ZoS is starting to make this game P2W !
    Edited by xxxdcxxx on June 27, 2016 9:11AM
    PC-EU
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  • CokeVoAYCE
    CokeVoAYCE
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    xxxdcxxx wrote: »
    I dont know whether this is p2w or not but I think ZoS is starting to make this game P2W !

    whether craft bags is too far or not it definitely seems to be heading in a scary direction. if ZOS thinks they'll make more money incrementally making it more and more beneficial to become ESO+ to the point where eventually if you aren't ESO+ the game will be much more difficult for you then we could be in big trouble.
  • Mortam
    Mortam
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    Paying a sub fee is NOT pay to win. Seems some people think if you give a game company ANY money then it's P2W.

    Entertainment costs money, just like everything else in the world.

    Pay the sub fee, get everything. Don't pay, get less.
  • Vangy
    Vangy
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    CokeVoAYCE wrote: »
    Molag_Crow wrote: »
    I see different levels of the definition of 'pay to win.'
    • Paying IRL cash for strong in-game armor, weapons, abilities/spells and stronger stats/damage than a free-to-play player.
    • Paying IRL cash for materials and ingredients to craft the best armor/weapons (legendary) and paying for in-game gold and buying an instant max character level boost.
    • Paying IRL cash for more XP (I'd say 20%+ is over the line, personally) more in-game gold earned from kills and quests, more flashy cosmetic effects/a symbol next to your name to show that you're a subscriber, faster mount speed and other perks such as teleportation etc.
    • Paying IRL cash for a slight (10%(?)) XP, Gold, Reputation (inspiration) boost, access to DLCs, free costume dyes and an additional bag to put all of your crafting materials in, saving bag space to spend more time actually playing the game rather than playing the bank/vendor game, every so often.

    exactly, that's my point. there's different degrees of pay to win, but it's still pay to win. most MMOs are pay to win, including ESO. the debate is on whether they're going or have gone too far pay to win. i'm just trying to point out that this game still is pay to win.

    Duh... Mmos are pay2win in at least some regard cos ;)

    1. They need to maintain servers.
    2. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom needs to get paid for putting up with.... threads like these....
    3. They need to do regular maintenance which costs $$.

    You simply cannot have a one-off purchase mmo... Every single mmo offers some kind of convenience or items for sale... Almost all of them are at least a teeeeeeny weeeeeny little bit pay to win. ( in the sense you seem to be considering). Things like craft bags or horse upgrades etc etc.

    As for the debate on going too far, I think ESO is pretty modest when it comes to what you can get from crown store. The only thing so far is craft bags which is arguably the only thing keeping me from unsubbing. Every other perk is neigh worthless and I can get crowns at 40-50% of the price that ESO+ costs me.
    Edited by Vangy on June 27, 2016 9:16AM
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  • ku5h
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    I dont think ZoS is completely P2W free. When IC came out, you had to pay so you could farm best monster set in the game for dps. When Orsinium came, out you had to pay so you can farm for best weapons in the game. You had to pay, so you could run MoL where you get best PvE gear. From my point of view this game is P2W to a degree.

  • CokeVoAYCE
    CokeVoAYCE
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    ku5h wrote: »
    I dont think ZoS is completely P2W free. When IC came out, you had to pay so you could farm best monster set in the game for dps. When Orsinium came, out you had to pay so you can farm for best weapons in the game. You had to pay, so you could run MoL where you get best PvE gear. From my point of view this game is P2W to a degree.

    there you go. i don't have any of the DLC so i can't get any of that fancy shmancy trial gear or whatever that vma stuff is.
  • Dubhliam
    Dubhliam
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    Google:
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    ESO's Crown store is far from P2W, if you had played any other B2P of F2P MMO in the past, you would know that.

    If you think earning XP 10% faster or having an easy time managing your inventory is winning, you are welcome to quit the game.
    [snip]
    Just to be clear, I was a subscriber right up until TG. Wanted to sub again with DB release but did not want to support a developer that can't handle hackers and exploiters.
    That is how little ESO+ appeals me.

    edited to remove insulting language
    Edited by ZOS_DaryaK on June 27, 2016 2:23PM
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  • TheDarkoil
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    ^ good point but even if you don't have dlc you can use in game gold to buy those items off other players who do.
  • Leandor
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    ku5h wrote: »
    I dont think ZoS is completely P2W free. When IC came out, you had to pay so you could farm best monster set in the game for dps. When Orsinium came, out you had to pay so you can farm for best weapons in the game. You had to pay, so you could run MoL where you get best PvE gear. From my point of view this game is P2W to a degree.
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that one again!

    When burning crusade came out, you had to pay to enjoy the new drops. When lich king came out, you had to pay to enter the new raids. Shall I continue?

    Of course you will pay for new content, has been that way ever since. And in all other games, you had to pay in addition to the sub, something that you don't have to do in ESO.

    By that definition, ESO is the least P2W game to ever come out, man. Stop sticking the finger in your own eye.

    Godamit, I'm in forum warrior mood this morning...
    Edited by Leandor on June 27, 2016 9:23AM
  • UltimaJoe777
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    CokeVoAYCE wrote: »
    seems a lot of people don't understand this.

    pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
    pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics

    pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
    pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay

    so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.

    Subbing makes the game easier eh? That really depends on how you look at it. Extra XP? Not like it's hard to reach max level anyway, and CPs? People usually grind those with enlightenment and even without it it's still only 10%... Extra gold? Pfft. Everyone knows obtained gold is chump change. Research is sped up? Only by a few days or so for each trait which isn't THAT big a difference. Crafting Bags? Sure it's convenient but that's all; convenient. I was making do just fine before it came along so not a big deal there.

    No subbing does not make the game easier because it's already easy. Outright buying a skill line however... Now THAT is what I call pay to win, regardless of what people think about Werewolves and Vampires and how easy the quest is.
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  • me_ming
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    CokeVoAYCE wrote: »
    seems a lot of people don't understand this.

    pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
    pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics

    pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
    pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay

    so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.

    Trust me the reason why you're not winning is not because people are subbing. The reason why you think PvP is elitist is because instead of learning how to play the game, you choose to post unnecessary stuff here in the forums and in game.
    CokeVoAYCE wrote: »
    i don't have any of the DLC so i can't get any of that fancy shmancy trial gear or whatever that vma stuff is.

    Why don't you have the DLCs? The game is no longer subscription based, did you expect ZoS to just give free content for you? lol. Funny stuff.

    Edited by me_ming on June 27, 2016 9:32AM
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  • RebornV3x
    RebornV3x
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    did this really need to be in all caps ESO has some P2W elements but is far from P2W MMO
    Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
    I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.
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