Why do we still have a Level System?

DDuke · June 2016

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

You mention that "this is supposed to be an MMORPG", like that should mean it can't be any-way original. And in the OP mention that "a good levelling system is an important part of this genre". Now I understand that is what you are accustomed to, but it doesn't mean that the current system is important. It really isn't, and I think you are just finding it hard to understand that.

I mean, let's take Call of Duty (the example fits I swear). Now players in that game will actually give up all they have unlocked for a new badge. As that is actually what is important to them, the chance to show that they have a certain level of experience (and I mean exp in the literal sense and the "farmed" sense) playing the game.

On to your concern, and staying with COD. One could argue that all those prestiged players are still battle-levelled as everyone still does the same damage and take the same amount of hits yet they are lacking many perks and and tools that those other players still have. But the funny thing is, in the end, it doesn't matter, because it never really mattered, the real life experience playing the game and applying what you have learned will always be what truly sets you apart from others. Your actual ability in the game is what actually matters. Yet people still want that badge or number to show other players their experience.

So you see, battle-levelling all the zones changes nothing. I mean, I still meet players struggling in delves in wrothgar whilst farming trinimac. Let's let them struggle anywhere they want.

And finally, this game still has tons of carats... I mean, achievements to earn and accomplish, in the form of titles, weapons, gear, hats, shoes, sticks, trophies, skills, items, quests, Damn, I could go on but you get my drift. Just let go of the pointless numbers man. They are just numbers.

Saying ESO compares to COD is probably THE worst way to put things... I would personally never go that far.

DDuke wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

You mention that "this is supposed to be an MMORPG", like that should mean it can't be any-way original. And in the OP mention that "a good levelling system is an important part of this genre". Now I understand that is what you are accustomed to, but it doesn't mean that the current system is important. It really isn't, and I think you are just finding it hard to understand that.

I mean, let's take Call of Duty (the example fits I swear). Now players in that game will actually give up all they have unlocked for a new badge. As that is actually what is important to them, the chance to show that they have a certain level of experience (and I mean exp in the literal sense and the "farmed" sense) playing the game.

On to your concern, and staying with COD. One could argue that all those prestiged players are still battle-levelled as everyone still does the same damage and take the same amount of hits yet they are lacking many perks and and tools that those other players still have. But the funny thing is, in the end, it doesn't matter, because it never really mattered, the real life experience playing the game and applying what you have learned will always be what truly sets you apart from others. Your actual ability in the game is what actually matters. Yet people still want that badge or number to show other players their experience.

So you see, battle-levelling all the zones changes nothing. I mean, I still meet players struggling in delves in wrothgar whilst farming trinimac. Let's let them struggle anywhere they want.

And finally, this game still has tons of carats... I mean, achievements to earn and accomplish, in the form of titles, weapons, gear, hats, shoes, sticks, trophies, skills, items, quests, Damn, I could go on but you get my drift. Just let go of the pointless numbers man. They are just numbers.

I think Call of Duty is the last thing you want to compare ESO to - but sadly I agree the game is going towards that direction. Away from RPG & towards the Action genre - just like Morrowind>Oblivion>Skyrim.

The reason I play MMORPGs and not those Action/FPS games is because I very much enjoy my character progression, and I imagine quite a few other people share this mindset - hence the disgust towards this dumbing down by ZOS.

No one (ok, maybe 2-3 people) wants a Skyrim Online and no one wants a Call of Scrolls.

Good job on even trying to gain a simple level of perspective guys. My references are to how the numbers beside your name are perceived by people in general. Not once do I actually compare gameplay. And you still fail to even attempt a comprehension of the fact that the numbers here in ESO are only barriers and never actually effect negatively on someone's sense of progression. Except for you guys I guess. But can you tell me why?
Why does unlocking access to areas give a needed sense of progression?

Do you not understand that the numbers are part of what makes the gameplay? Those numbers are what make the game a RPG game rather than Action.

Also, some of us actually like those barriers. Barriers we get to overcome & tear down as we progress our characters. It gives a sense of accomplishment, a sense of progression. A sense that our time spent playing matters.

Hallothiel · June 2016

@NeillMcAttack

For my own part, having areas off limits until you have reached a certain level is what I am used to. * And it means that I have gone through the story quests & learnt more about the game & how to play it. I have learnt skills & tried out different ways of using them to improve.

This one world suggestion has me wary that this aspect of the game - one that is rather important - will be lost.

I would rather there was new end game content than the ability to go back & redo old quests now 'levelled'.

* come from playing games such as Assassin's Creed, The Witcher & Dragon Age as well as Skyrim. All have progression via levels, with areas only unlocked at certain levels.

I know this is an MMO but I thought it was meant to be an MMO RPG

dsalter · June 2016

susmitds wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

No more Vet Ranks, EVERYWHERE will be battle-leveled soon... Seriously if this s**t goes any further south we're going to hit space mexico...

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system. Now all it does is serve as a gear requirement? And for what, gear that is actually worse than what someone under 20 wears? Stat points are pretty useless now since battle-leveling scales you based on distribution which means you only need like 2 points... It's basically just skyshards and champion points now so why have levels anymore? I'm honestly considering quitting now... If I wanted a more free-roaming game I'd play a single player game, like the Skyrim remake that was announced. Anyone else feel like I do?

Zenimax I implore you to keep battle-leveling out of alliance zones! DLCs are fine so people can play what they pay for immediately but this is taking it too far...

So says you, all leveling is in an MMO is restriction until endgame. Name 3 games where the levelling system was more enjoyed than endgame content... Ill wait.

Runescape. Morrowind. Kingdom Hearts.

Any final fantasy game, fallout, xcom. think the guy got unexpected results?

Faulgor · June 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Can people stop with this "like other Scrolls games" bs already?

It's not as easily comparable, I think. Yes, other ES games had much more freedom in exploration than ESO, but they also had a lot of harder enemies that you could only beat by improving your character.
What made all the difference imo is first, these enemies were dispered throughout the world and not clustered into "zones" (although you could make that argument for Red Mountain in Morrowind), and second, in the case of Morrowind the enemies did not have levels, which means a mudcrab or a daedroth are always the same.

In ESO, on the other hand, everything is gated into distinct zones, and these zones have a fixed level range instead of the monsters. The Elder Scrolls element that One Tamriel now brings to ESO is to lift the zone restrictions (yay!), but without tying the level-dependent challenge to the enemies like we are used to from Morrowind and partially Skyrim (nay.).

But frankly, level 1-50 has been a joke since forever. They won't make it challenging again no matter what.

Mettaricana · June 2016

I'm all for cp replacing all levels on the game at same time I'm all for upping the difficulty to imperial city enemy difficulty across the board so that everything has a chance at ending you leave dungeons group as is. its bad enough grouping randoms that add new levels of difficulty just existing in your party.

Meshal · June 2016

Less Grinding (Leveling) = Better Gameplay

Nuff said.

DDuke · June 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Can people stop with this "like other Scrolls games" bs already?

It's not as easily comparable, I think. Yes, other ES games had much more freedom in exploration than ESO, but they also had a lot of harder enemies that you could only beat by improving your character.
What made all the difference imo is first, these enemies were dispered throughout the world and not clustered into "zones" (although you could make that argument for Red Mountain in Morrowind), and second, in the case of Morrowind the enemies did not have levels, which means a mudcrab or a daedroth are always the same.

In ESO, on the other hand, everything is gated into distinct zones, and these zones have a fixed level range instead of the monsters. The Elder Scrolls element that One Tamriel now brings to ESO is to lift the zone restrictions (yay!), but without tying the level-dependent challenge to the enemies like we are used to from Morrowind and partially Skyrim (nay.).

But frankly, level 1-50 has been a joke since forever. They won't make it challenging again no matter what.

Yeah, I like that you can go to Glenumbra/Auridon/Stonefalls to level with your new toon. That's great.

What I don't like is that you can also go to Rift, Bangkorai, Reaper's March & find the difficulty the exact same over there, no matter your level.

I also don't like how all the gear from 1-49 is meaningless. Why bother craft or equip higher level gear, if your stats will be the same regardless?

More paths is good for leveling, no paths at all is incredibly bad.

Morrowind did have levels by the way, you just couldn't see them.

For example, ordinators were typically around level 20 (http://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ordinator), where as everyone's favourite elf Fargoth was level 2 (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Fargoth). The stronghold of Andasreth had bandits between levels 6-18 (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Andasreth) and so on...

There were some generic random encounters that scaled to your level, but the majority of enemies (and friendly NPCs) in Morrowind had fixed levels.

Kalifas · June 2016

The introduction of downscaling/upscaling opens the path for the Mastery System Concept. Tune stuff to be harder difficulty before ranking up.

Malpherian · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

No more Vet Ranks, EVERYWHERE will be battle-leveled soon... Seriously if this s**t goes any further south we're going to hit space mexico...

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system. Now all it does is serve as a gear requirement? And for what, gear that is actually worse than what someone under 20 wears? Stat points are pretty useless now since battle-leveling scales you based on distribution which means you only need like 2 points... It's basically just skyshards and champion points now so why have levels anymore? I'm honestly considering quitting now... If I wanted a more free-roaming game I'd play a single player game, like the Skyrim remake that was announced. Anyone else feel like I do?

Zenimax I implore you to keep battle-leveling out of alliance zones! DLCs are fine so people can play what they pay for immediately but this is taking it too far...

Actually some of the Best and longest lived MMO's have no leveling system. EvE Online for one, which was around before World of Warcraft, and will be here 50 years from now. after this and even WoW dies. CCP is fully comitted to making EvE a Centinial Game. They upgrade the hardware, software and even Engine running the game to keep with the Modern technology. EvE is in fact the Only MMO that does this.

Yes other games upgrade hardware, and tweak software, But I have never seen one before EvE actually overhaul the entire engine which runs it. Granted CCPs Engine is custom which they developed themselves, so maybe that is why they can do it, 99% of developers simply rent the license for one like Unreal engine, or whatever, and they themselves have no clue how to recode and upgrade it. So the game eventually becomes dated, and dies out.

InvitationNotFound · June 2016

*sighs*

this game is becoming *** and boring. levels are progression in the game and should stay at what they are. i'm not even happy with the current battle leveling in the dlc areas. it's a joke you are able to run into a public dungeon where vr (now cp 1+) are grinding and you're able to compete, even with trash equipment as it simply doesn't matter anymore.

It currently doesn't even take a day to reach level 50 (yes, by grinding) and people are complaining? Seriously? You need it even easier?

Malpherian wrote: »

Actually some of the Best and longest lived MMO's have no leveling system. EvE Online for one, which was around before World of Warcraft, and will be here 50 years from now.

Played that one ages ago... wasn't it like it took ages to train a skill, right? so here you go, compare it to levels as it is simply progression (and don't compare it to the skills we have here, which will be at max after a single day...)

There was actually a better and older game which didn't have levels, but progression regarding the skills...

and that's the point, you won't have any reasonable progression anymore once you implement battle leveling everywhere.

NeillMcAttack · June 2016

DDuke wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

You mention that "this is supposed to be an MMORPG", like that should mean it can't be any-way original. And in the OP mention that "a good levelling system is an important part of this genre". Now I understand that is what you are accustomed to, but it doesn't mean that the current system is important. It really isn't, and I think you are just finding it hard to understand that.

I mean, let's take Call of Duty (the example fits I swear). Now players in that game will actually give up all they have unlocked for a new badge. As that is actually what is important to them, the chance to show that they have a certain level of experience (and I mean exp in the literal sense and the "farmed" sense) playing the game.

On to your concern, and staying with COD. One could argue that all those prestiged players are still battle-levelled as everyone still does the same damage and take the same amount of hits yet they are lacking many perks and and tools that those other players still have. But the funny thing is, in the end, it doesn't matter, because it never really mattered, the real life experience playing the game and applying what you have learned will always be what truly sets you apart from others. Your actual ability in the game is what actually matters. Yet people still want that badge or number to show other players their experience.

So you see, battle-levelling all the zones changes nothing. I mean, I still meet players struggling in delves in wrothgar whilst farming trinimac. Let's let them struggle anywhere they want.

And finally, this game still has tons of carats... I mean, achievements to earn and accomplish, in the form of titles, weapons, gear, hats, shoes, sticks, trophies, skills, items, quests, Damn, I could go on but you get my drift. Just let go of the pointless numbers man. They are just numbers.

Saying ESO compares to COD is probably THE worst way to put things... I would personally never go that far.

DDuke wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

You mention that "this is supposed to be an MMORPG", like that should mean it can't be any-way original. And in the OP mention that "a good levelling system is an important part of this genre". Now I understand that is what you are accustomed to, but it doesn't mean that the current system is important. It really isn't, and I think you are just finding it hard to understand that.

I mean, let's take Call of Duty (the example fits I swear). Now players in that game will actually give up all they have unlocked for a new badge. As that is actually what is important to them, the chance to show that they have a certain level of experience (and I mean exp in the literal sense and the "farmed" sense) playing the game.

On to your concern, and staying with COD. One could argue that all those prestiged players are still battle-levelled as everyone still does the same damage and take the same amount of hits yet they are lacking many perks and and tools that those other players still have. But the funny thing is, in the end, it doesn't matter, because it never really mattered, the real life experience playing the game and applying what you have learned will always be what truly sets you apart from others. Your actual ability in the game is what actually matters. Yet people still want that badge or number to show other players their experience.

So you see, battle-levelling all the zones changes nothing. I mean, I still meet players struggling in delves in wrothgar whilst farming trinimac. Let's let them struggle anywhere they want.

And finally, this game still has tons of carats... I mean, achievements to earn and accomplish, in the form of titles, weapons, gear, hats, shoes, sticks, trophies, skills, items, quests, Damn, I could go on but you get my drift. Just let go of the pointless numbers man. They are just numbers.

I think Call of Duty is the last thing you want to compare ESO to - but sadly I agree the game is going towards that direction. Away from RPG & towards the Action genre - just like Morrowind>Oblivion>Skyrim.

The reason I play MMORPGs and not those Action/FPS games is because I very much enjoy my character progression, and I imagine quite a few other people share this mindset - hence the disgust towards this dumbing down by ZOS.

No one (ok, maybe 2-3 people) wants a Skyrim Online and no one wants a Call of Scrolls.

Good job on even trying to gain a simple level of perspective guys. My references are to how the numbers beside your name are perceived by people in general. Not once do I actually compare gameplay. And you still fail to even attempt a comprehension of the fact that the numbers here in ESO are only barriers and never actually effect negatively on someone's sense of progression. Except for you guys I guess. But can you tell me why?
Why does unlocking access to areas give a needed sense of progression?

Do you not understand that the numbers are part of what makes the gameplay? Those numbers are what make the game a RPG game rather than Action.

Also, some of us actually like those barriers. Barriers we get to overcome & tear down as we progress our characters. It gives a sense of accomplishment, a sense of progression. A sense that our time spent playing matters.

Okay, I hear that you like the barriers. That is fine, but, for myself, I fully comprehend that those barriers are nothing but a blatant restriction to draw out time in-game.

Not long ago, as I was levelling my templar, I was in the rift, at around level 30ish with about 100 CP's or less. I fought a bear for about 3 mins because the game has implemented a fake barrier in the form of a huge miss chance on anything that over levels me. That was the region that i had to turn in my writs and I was only trekking to a survey site. What was the point in drawing that fight out? (Unless it wanted to prepare me for the roll dodging antics of Cyro these days

). There was no point. It was annoying.

So to answer you. No, I do not understand what a number beside your name has to do with gameplay, except to signify ones actual experience playing the game. That is all.

@Hallothiel

I fully understand that you both 'feel' level restrictions are an important barrier to learning and progressing. But I'm sorry they are not, at least to many. There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel, others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever, others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons, others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back, others will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go, possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's, they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

AAALLLLL that before even mentioning the possibilities that this change can help pave the way for. Maybe difficulty sliders, maybe public events, maybe more.

InvitationNotFound · June 2016

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@Hallothiel

I fully understand that you both 'feel' level restrictions are an important barrier to learning and progressing. But I'm sorry they are not, at least to many. There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel, others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever, others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons, others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back, others will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go, possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's, they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

AAALLLLL that before even mentioning the possibilities that this change can help pave the way for. Maybe difficulty sliders, maybe public events, maybe more.

ever thought about playing a single player game or a simple shooter? what you're talking about has not much to do with a mmorpg.

There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel]

you will while you level. otherwise of course you still can run through all the regions as you please... and get slaughtered. but that's part of the progression implemented in every mmorpg (at least in every mmorpg i've seen so far)

others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever

so? where's the problem with that? already possible.

others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons

group dungeons are scaled. problem solved...
a level 10 char in a vr5 (cp50) public dungeon? has nothing to do with progress and is a misconception.

others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back

there's a low level cyro campaign. stick with it if you don't want to level. depending on your play style it even makes more fun.
so you want to farm skyshards before you can even use them? (yes, you have to level you skills, in the meantime you'll level your char to an appropriate level).

thers will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go

you can already explore and pick up flowers and **** all day long wherever you want (maybe with some skillpoints spent). don't face any mobs and you're fine (again, we're at the progression which is fine)

possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction

has nothing to do with the level system and this thread. but thanks for mentioning. it will be the worst **** when they implement that one tamriel c***. but as i said... that's another topic.

, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's

even more off topic. and yes it is absolutely brilliant when people are spying... it's actually what's already going on in cyro. dude, are you serious???

they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

sorry, but please consider buying a single player game or a "normal" multiplayer game like a shooter...

Voxicity · June 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Vox wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system.

I could argue that one of the most important aspects of an Elder Scrolls game is freedom to explore wherever you want to, which is what this change is going to give the player.

You were free to explore higher level dungeons/areas in Morrowind too - only you'd get your ass kicked and you'd come back later with a vengeance. Exploring the world was an adventure and a good experience because you didn't know what to expect from each area.

They of course ruined that in Oblivion & Skyrim. Instead of dangerous areas that make you think "oh, I'll have to make my character stronger and come back" you get the same battle-leveled bandits over & over again that you beat by bashing your face on keyboard.

I see a lot of people make that remark about "Elder Scrolls" and "freedom to explore" - sadly people forget what made that exploring fun & memorable in the first place. Or maybe they just didn't play the good TES game and their only experience is Skyrim/Oblivion.

That doesn't mean anything. If the last two main series elder scrolls games scrapped the system that morrowind had, then 'what makes an elder scrolls game' has changed, so my point is still completely valid. I suspect you're stuck in the past and have nostalgia for one of the older games in the series. That doesn't mean other games in the series can't evolve and change for the better.

Hallothiel · June 2016

@NeillMcAttack

There has to be some sort of progression in a game otherwise why play it? There should be challenges and difficulties - I can't think of a single game I've played over the years where you start able to do everything. That would be tedious & dull.

And you mentioned those who gather mats for crafting - what would be the point if you did not improve your skills?

People can do everything you've mentioned already in the game - just not from the start! Have patience......

NeillMcAttack · June 2016

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@Hallothiel

I fully understand that you both 'feel' level restrictions are an important barrier to learning and progressing. But I'm sorry they are not, at least to many. There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel, others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever, others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons, others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back, others will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go, possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's, they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

AAALLLLL that before even mentioning the possibilities that this change can help pave the way for. Maybe difficulty sliders, maybe public events, maybe more.

ever thought about playing a single player game or a simple shooter? what you're talking about has not much to do with a mmorpg.

There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel]

you will while you level. otherwise of course you still can run through all the regions as you please... and get slaughtered. but that's part of the progression implemented in every mmorpg (at least in every mmorpg i've seen so far)

others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever

so? where's the problem with that? already possible.

others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons

group dungeons are scaled. problem solved...
a level 10 char in a vr5 (cp50) public dungeon? has nothing to do with progress and is a misconception.

others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back

there's a low level cyro campaign. stick with it if you don't want to level. depending on your play style it even makes more fun.
so you want to farm skyshards before you can even use them? (yes, you have to level you skills, in the meantime you'll level your char to an appropriate level).

thers will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go

you can already explore and pick up flowers and **** all day long wherever you want (maybe with some skillpoints spent). don't face any mobs and you're fine (again, we're at the progression which is fine)

possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction

has nothing to do with the level system and this thread. but thanks for mentioning. it will be the worst **** when they implement that one tamriel c***. but as i said... that's another topic.

, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's

even more off topic. and yes it is absolutely brilliant when people are spying... it's actually what's already going on in cyro. dude, are you serious???

they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

sorry, but please consider buying a single player game or a "normal" multiplayer game like a shooter...

Quick correction; that should read "play the spy" in the context of RPing.... and it does.

And dude calm down. How about explaining to me, as I am admittedly having a hard time understanding, how does a fictitious (that is what it is) barrier to explorable content, negatively affect your enjoyment of this game?

Stating that it is an MMORPG means absolutely nothing. Never does this stop this game being of that genre.

DDuke · June 2016

Vox wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vox wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system.

I could argue that one of the most important aspects of an Elder Scrolls game is freedom to explore wherever you want to, which is what this change is going to give the player.

You were free to explore higher level dungeons/areas in Morrowind too - only you'd get your ass kicked and you'd come back later with a vengeance. Exploring the world was an adventure and a good experience because you didn't know what to expect from each area.

They of course ruined that in Oblivion & Skyrim. Instead of dangerous areas that make you think "oh, I'll have to make my character stronger and come back" you get the same battle-leveled bandits over & over again that you beat by bashing your face on keyboard.

I see a lot of people make that remark about "Elder Scrolls" and "freedom to explore" - sadly people forget what made that exploring fun & memorable in the first place. Or maybe they just didn't play the good TES game and their only experience is Skyrim/Oblivion.

That doesn't mean anything. If the last two main series elder scrolls games scrapped the system that morrowind had, then 'what makes an elder scrolls game' has changed, so my point is still completely valid. I suspect you're stuck in the past and have nostalgia for one of the older games in the series. That doesn't mean other games in the series can't evolve and change for the better.

It has changed, yes. For the worse. And as far as I'm aware (I've personally talked to dozens of people regarding this topic) this is a general fact agreed by majority of people who have played both Morrowind & Oblivion/Skyrim.

The series has been dumbed down to attract more people that are new to gaming and can't be expected to understand RPG contexts. So instead of making tutorials for these people, gameplay is just dumbed down.

All for what? $$$.

It should be about evolution & changing the games for the better, but sadly this is not the case. It's just about changing games to bring more quick $$$ from instant gratification demanding Candy Crush heroes.

InvitationNotFound · June 2016

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@Hallothiel

I fully understand that you both 'feel' level restrictions are an important barrier to learning and progressing. But I'm sorry they are not, at least to many. There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel, others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever, others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons, others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back, others will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go, possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's, they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

AAALLLLL that before even mentioning the possibilities that this change can help pave the way for. Maybe difficulty sliders, maybe public events, maybe more.

ever thought about playing a single player game or a simple shooter? what you're talking about has not much to do with a mmorpg.

There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel]

you will while you level. otherwise of course you still can run through all the regions as you please... and get slaughtered. but that's part of the progression implemented in every mmorpg (at least in every mmorpg i've seen so far)

others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever

so? where's the problem with that? already possible.

others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons

group dungeons are scaled. problem solved...
a level 10 char in a vr5 (cp50) public dungeon? has nothing to do with progress and is a misconception.

others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back

there's a low level cyro campaign. stick with it if you don't want to level. depending on your play style it even makes more fun.
so you want to farm skyshards before you can even use them? (yes, you have to level you skills, in the meantime you'll level your char to an appropriate level).

thers will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go

you can already explore and pick up flowers and **** all day long wherever you want (maybe with some skillpoints spent). don't face any mobs and you're fine (again, we're at the progression which is fine)

possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction

has nothing to do with the level system and this thread. but thanks for mentioning. it will be the worst **** when they implement that one tamriel c***. but as i said... that's another topic.

, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's

even more off topic. and yes it is absolutely brilliant when people are spying... it's actually what's already going on in cyro. dude, are you serious???

they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

sorry, but please consider buying a single player game or a "normal" multiplayer game like a shooter...

Quick correction; that should read "play the spy" in the context of RPing.... and it does.

And dude calm down. How about explaining to me, as I am admittedly having a hard time understanding, how does a fictitious (that is what it is) barrier to explorable content, negatively affect your enjoyment of this game?

Stating that it is an MMORPG means absolutely nothing. Never does this stop this game being of that genre.

If you don't have anything like progress it is like a single player game (even they have more progress). progress is a part of a game that keeps people involved and keep playing it. without progress it's getting boring pretty fast. mmorpgs tend to have a lot of content to work on and not simply finish it after a few hours.

Obviously, if you would have played any other mmorpg you most likely wouldn't complain about that. but all i see here is a console player who just bought another game without knowing what he bought and now complains about buying an mmorpg and wants adjustments. wtf?

lardvader · June 2016

I don't see the real problem with this. We still have to level like normal but we can choose to do this in any zone at any point. I never felt locked out of any zones due to level requirements. I only had to play some hours to get there...

Well you can argue that it's more open for exploration, but for me this means more exiting to play with friends and guildies at any level.

I have 7 characters that skipped most of the game and they're now maxed out. Finally a reason to go back and complete quests, collect shards and gain progression while doing so.

InvitationNotFound · June 2016

lardvader wrote: »

I don't see the real problem with this. We still have to level like normal but we can choose to do this in any zone at any point. I never felt locked out of any zones due to level requirements. I only had to play some hours to get there...

Well you can argue that it's more open for exploration, but for me this means more exiting to play with friends and guildies at any level.

I have 7 characters that skipped most of the game and they're now maxed out. Finally a reason to go back and complete quests, collect shards and gain progression while doing so.

my experience from my last grind (mostly battle leveled) is that is a plain joke. no need to craft equipment, no need to know what you do. nothing. and you still perform sometimes better than a vr16 (cp160 - sorry, didn't grind since the new dlc...) because you get buffed. easy and care bear mode.

the game has already been nerfed in almost every aspect possible. and this simply seems to be the next step.

want to run some dungeons with your guild mates? do them a favor and get your level and learn how to play your char in the mean time. well, at least that's my opinion.

DDuke · June 2016

lardvader wrote: »

I don't see the real problem with this. We still have to level like normal but we can choose to do this in any zone at any point. I never felt locked out of any zones due to level requirements. I only had to play some hours to get there...

Well you can argue that it's more open for exploration, but for me this means more exiting to play with friends and guildies at any level.

I have 7 characters that skipped most of the game and they're now maxed out. Finally a reason to go back and complete quests, collect shards and gain progression while doing so.

Well, let me explain to you:

Between 1-49, your levels mean jack now - all content is doable at any of those levels because your stats are scaled.
Between 1-49, your attributes mean nothing - all stats are scaled so none of those attribute points matter
Between 1-49, your gear and gear level means nothing - all stats are scaled so you might as well run naked until 50 when your stats stop being scaled

It might not feel like anything to you, but to many it's like playing with godmode toggled on and I hate to use this word but... it ruins the "RPG immersion" where your protagonist has just crawled out of Coldharbour, weak and unskilled at just about everything. That's no longer the case - your protagonist is now a demigod capable of defeating daedric lords & everything in the world right after exiting Coldharbour - no training or leveling up whatsoever required.

If ZOS had decided to take a more intelligent route, they would've given the option for max level characters to downscale into a zone's level range, and then complete objectives in lower level zones while gaining CPs etc.

NeillMcAttack · June 2016

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@Hallothiel

I fully understand that you both 'feel' level restrictions are an important barrier to learning and progressing. But I'm sorry they are not, at least to many. There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel, others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever, others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons, others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back, others will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go, possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's, they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

AAALLLLL that before even mentioning the possibilities that this change can help pave the way for. Maybe difficulty sliders, maybe public events, maybe more.

ever thought about playing a single player game or a simple shooter? what you're talking about has not much to do with a mmorpg.

There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel]

you will while you level. otherwise of course you still can run through all the regions as you please... and get slaughtered. but that's part of the progression implemented in every mmorpg (at least in every mmorpg i've seen so far)

others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever

so? where's the problem with that? already possible.

others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons

group dungeons are scaled. problem solved...
a level 10 char in a vr5 (cp50) public dungeon? has nothing to do with progress and is a misconception.

others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back

there's a low level cyro campaign. stick with it if you don't want to level. depending on your play style it even makes more fun.
so you want to farm skyshards before you can even use them? (yes, you have to level you skills, in the meantime you'll level your char to an appropriate level).

thers will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go

you can already explore and pick up flowers and **** all day long wherever you want (maybe with some skillpoints spent). don't face any mobs and you're fine (again, we're at the progression which is fine)

possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction

has nothing to do with the level system and this thread. but thanks for mentioning. it will be the worst **** when they implement that one tamriel c***. but as i said... that's another topic.

, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's

even more off topic. and yes it is absolutely brilliant when people are spying... it's actually what's already going on in cyro. dude, are you serious???

they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

sorry, but please consider buying a single player game or a "normal" multiplayer game like a shooter...

Quick correction; that should read "play the spy" in the context of RPing.... and it does.

And dude calm down. How about explaining to me, as I am admittedly having a hard time understanding, how does a fictitious (that is what it is) barrier to explorable content, negatively affect your enjoyment of this game?

Stating that it is an MMORPG means absolutely nothing. Never does this stop this game being of that genre.

If you don't have anything like progress it is like a single player game (even they have more progress). progress is a part of a game that keeps people involved and keep playing it. without progress it's getting boring pretty fast. mmorpgs tend to have a lot of content to work on and not simply finish it after a few hours.

Obviously, if you would have played any other mmorpg you most likely wouldn't complain about that. but all i see here is a console player who just bought another game without knowing what he bought and now complains about buying an mmorpg and wants adjustments. wtf?

So they are removing progress? I must have missed that announcement.

And have you read my previous comments. I state that removing a huge miss chance on monsters is not giving anyone a sense of progress.

BTW, I have no bias one way or the other, I'm simply open-minded to the concept, but you are right about something in your last comment. I clearly come from a very different mindset of gamer. And listening to a grown man cry that this isn't how he remembers it so "waaaaaaah" gives me a great sense of satisfaction, knowing that I don't feel games 'have' to conform to my own comfortable understanding of them.

Bu bye now.

NeillMcAttack · June 2016

@Hallothiel

But there still is tons of progress. Have we not even thought to how this effects players that have been complaining for a long time that they end up out-leveling content too fast, as they like to complete all quests in a zone. This even fixes that.

I am still not seeing any reason that this could negatively effect someone's enjoyment. Like you said, crafts are still to be progressed, faction skill lines, quests and story archs, all of it! Is still there only it scales better with casual and hardcore gameplay alike.

Selique · June 2016

I don't understand why a Leveling system has to be an important part of being an MMO? Can't you progress without it? Innovation in MMO's is something we need, not sticking to the same old recipe which makes the genre boring.

Skills still have levels and meaning. Gear still has CP requirements. Trials still have CP requirements. Who cares what number you have next to your name? What does it matter?

This change is for the better. I personally welcome it with open arms.

Sallington · June 2016

I'm still holding out hope that we'll see another MMO with SWG's skill leveling system. No levels, just skill trees.

I'm afraid the days of amazing sandbox MMOs are dead though

InvitationNotFound · June 2016

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@Hallothiel

I fully understand that you both 'feel' level restrictions are an important barrier to learning and progressing. But I'm sorry they are not, at least to many. There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel, others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever, others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons, others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back, others will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go, possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's, they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

AAALLLLL that before even mentioning the possibilities that this change can help pave the way for. Maybe difficulty sliders, maybe public events, maybe more.

ever thought about playing a single player game or a simple shooter? what you're talking about has not much to do with a mmorpg.

There are many players that will just want to see all of Tamriel]

you will while you level. otherwise of course you still can run through all the regions as you please... and get slaughtered. but that's part of the progression implemented in every mmorpg (at least in every mmorpg i've seen so far)

others that will just want to do all the side quests while saving the main ones for whenever

so? where's the problem with that? already possible.

others that will just farm all the public and group dungeons

group dungeons are scaled. problem solved...
a level 10 char in a vr5 (cp50) public dungeon? has nothing to do with progress and is a misconception.

others will grab the skyshards and head straight into Cyro and never look back

there's a low level cyro campaign. stick with it if you don't want to level. depending on your play style it even makes more fun.
so you want to farm skyshards before you can even use them? (yes, you have to level you skills, in the meantime you'll level your char to an appropriate level).

thers will just be wandering and exploring crafters picking up everything as they go

you can already explore and pick up flowers and **** all day long wherever you want (maybe with some skillpoints spent). don't face any mobs and you're fine (again, we're at the progression which is fine)

possibly a few will want to participate in RP meetings in another faction

has nothing to do with the level system and this thread. but thanks for mentioning. it will be the worst **** when they implement that one tamriel c***. but as i said... that's another topic.

, and even be able to play the spy amongst tons of evil yellow's

even more off topic. and yes it is absolutely brilliant when people are spying... it's actually what's already going on in cyro. dude, are you serious???

they can even fight monsters together without fake restrictions.

sorry, but please consider buying a single player game or a "normal" multiplayer game like a shooter...

Quick correction; that should read "play the spy" in the context of RPing.... and it does.

And dude calm down. How about explaining to me, as I am admittedly having a hard time understanding, how does a fictitious (that is what it is) barrier to explorable content, negatively affect your enjoyment of this game?

Stating that it is an MMORPG means absolutely nothing. Never does this stop this game being of that genre.

If you don't have anything like progress it is like a single player game (even they have more progress). progress is a part of a game that keeps people involved and keep playing it. without progress it's getting boring pretty fast. mmorpgs tend to have a lot of content to work on and not simply finish it after a few hours.

Obviously, if you would have played any other mmorpg you most likely wouldn't complain about that. but all i see here is a console player who just bought another game without knowing what he bought and now complains about buying an mmorpg and wants adjustments. wtf?

So they are removing progress? I must have missed that announcement.

And have you read my previous comments. I state that removing a huge miss chance on monsters is not giving anyone a sense of progress.

BTW, I have no bias one way or the other, I'm simply open-minded to the concept, but you are right about something in your last comment. I clearly come from a very different mindset of gamer. And listening to a grown man cry that this isn't how he remembers it so "waaaaaaah" gives me a great sense of satisfaction, knowing that I don't feel games 'have' to conform to my own comfortable understanding of them.

Bu bye now.

lol how cute if you think i was crying here.

besides it is the wrong word for what it is. and nope, you haven't even seen me really complaining here.

and yes they are removing progress when you can easily jump naked into cp 150 mobs and slay them.

And have you read my previous comments. I state that removing a huge miss chance on monsters is not giving anyone a sense of progress.

couldn't read that anywhere in your previous statement. but so you state that removing miss chance on monsters is not giving anyone a sense of progress? so removing levels won't give a sense of progress? well, right then. the opposite is the case. you're confusing me right now.

... knowing that I don't feel games 'have' to conform to my own comfortable understanding of them.

but you're here trying to justify battle leveling and make the game more comfortable to your understanding on how it should be?

Selique wrote: »

I don't understand why a Leveling system has to be an important part of being an MMO? Can't you progress without it? Innovation in MMO's is something we need, not sticking to the same old recipe which makes the genre boring.

Skills still have levels and meaning. Gear still has CP requirements. Trials still have CP requirements. Who cares what number you have next to your name? What does it matter?

This change is for the better. I personally welcome it with open arms.

battle leveling everyone isn't innovation. there were already games without levels as stated before. if you "remove" levels you're simply left with a pretty lame and boring skill tree. not very innovative at all. If they would come up with a good system to replace it, why not. but this is just a half-assed "solution".

edit:typo

newtinmpls · June 2016

DDuke wrote: »

You were free to explore higher level dungeons/areas in Morrowind too - only you'd get your ass kicked and you'd come back later with a vengeance. Exploring the world was an adventure and a good experience because you didn't know what to expect from each area.

They of course ruined that in Oblivion & Skyrim. Instead of dangerous areas that make you think "oh, I'll have to make my character stronger and come back" you get the same battle-leveled bandits over & over again that you beat by bashing your face on keyboard.

I see a lot of people make that remark about "Elder Scrolls" and "freedom to explore" - sadly people forget what made that exploring fun & memorable in the first place. Or maybe they just didn't play the good TES game and their only experience is Skyrim/Oblivion.

Sigh.....

I miss that. The closest I got was IC (before the DB patch) where the sweepers were just harbingers of doom; you ran like hell

Or if you were smart and crazy and fast, you aggro-ed one and then led it into a group of enemies.

holosoul · June 2016

I wish MMOs would quit stagnating on decade old trends like leveling, quests, and gear.
These are not necessary aspects for high quality gameplay, and in fact only reduce from enjoyment and add to tedium.

technohic · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

A fully leveled character will always be more powerful than an unleveled character in a one on one situation. More skills, more abilities, more options.

If there is any part of the current system that goes against leveling it's the champion system and that was the case prior to One Tamriel.

That pretty much IS the leveling system at this point.

You're right here. They should get rid of the traditional levels completely and go 100% champion point based. Essentially they are as the OP points out, but they need to make it complete and have you earning champion points starting at cold harbors intro.

AugustoCP · June 2016

This is going the EXACT OPPOSITE direction we should go. In most MMOs, if a character who is, say, level 35 goes to an area a mere 5 levels below, he'll be a demigod capable of one shotting nearly everything and taking no damage at all.

In ESO, the progression line is far less steep, you can stil get killed even in an area 5 levels below you if you aggro too many monsters.

This is ZOS's choice, and while I'm not particularly fond of it myself, mostly due to so many frustrating moments, I can understand it, as it does keep the adventure feeling somewhat alive, and it really is fun. Still, I'd much rather have it the usual MMO way. Instead, ESO is going the exact opposite way, and, worse still, allowing absolutely new players to go wherever they please and kill everything with no challenge, no need to upgrade gear, no nothing. RPGs have always been about working hard to upgrade your character so you can beat tougher monsters. ZOS wants to take that part and throw it in the trash.

This has to be the stupidest idea I have ever heard.

Sallington · June 2016

holosoul wrote: »

I wish MMOs would quit stagnating on decade old trends like leveling, quests, and gear.
These are not necessary aspects for high quality gameplay, and in fact only reduce from enjoyment and add to tedium.

An RPG without gear? Sounds awful. I suppose it could work if you had a skill tree system diverse enough to allow for enough different playstyles without the need for gear.