Official Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

Recremen · May 2016

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

1) Again, if you check what I said, I never made any claim about the numbers of players, only the breadth of content. I am pretty sure however that if the PVP community was big enough of a demographic that ZOS felt their bottom line was affected by that demographic, it'd have much more of a say in what goes on for content creation and rules-refinements.

You are misapprehending the breadth of PvP content. It is relevant in both a leveling and, especially, an end-game content setting, and therefore the number of players involved is a better metric for how "niche" or "mainstream" it is. Since most of the servers have several factions poplocked every night, it is clearly more "mainstream" than "niche", so your assessments based on that point are falling quite flat.

WhiteNoiseMaker · May 2016

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

[
Do list who the "competitive mDKs" are in pvp please? Because I'm always on mine and I can't remember the last time I fought a mDK in pvp ...just saying. Not saying there aren't any it's just hardly anyone plays that specific class makeup currently which in my opinion is a problem for pvp which btw having 8 vets currently I play 90% of my time in pvp. not trying to sling mud in your face man it's just that some of the comments you made don't really add up is all.

True Flame NA server here btw

I wouldn't know them by name, but I also wasn't specifically addressing magicka DK's either. Tools in the toolbox are what you use for a given situation. I would not choose to drive a Ford F150 in a NASCAR race, nor would I choose a Formula 51 racer as a long-distance touring vehicle. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole seems futile to me. Play whatever works best for a given purpose. Right now, that seems to be Stam-DK's for Cyrodil.

tennant94 · May 2016

Recremen wrote: »

tennant94 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

just leave DKs alone they are probably the most fair and balanced class in the game, the damage is fine the pvp play as a stam and magic DK is fine (and before you magic DKs start having a fit ! classes should have alternatives and not just mirror each other, you guys cry about major expidition go suck on a melon cause in a fight magic DK is still one of the strongest classes, stam DK is fine) leave DKs alone they are fine when you get killed by one it seems legit but night blades loooool overachieving.

relax DKs you guys are fine

This thread is for discussing DK on a more fine-grained level, not really for offering groundless opinions. For example, saying "stam DK is fine" has no factual basis since an verage stam DK (in PvP) is using zero DK skills for damage and all of their defining class survivability skills use magicka. Not exactly a fair deal considering what other classes are able to pull with their stamina skills.

Stam dks have the fairest deal out of every class. Wrecking blow to dragon leap gg gn.

Except Wrecking Blow is getting nerfed next patch so you can't actually do that Empowered combo in PvP anymore, unless you like not having a stam-based CC.

You can still do the combo empower isn't what makes it strong asf it's the uppercut damage into the unavoidable ultimate to executioner.

mrkurokishi · May 2016

Like someone said previously a lot of the best PVE players are hardcore PVP players. The lack of content/server performance is something on ZoS knows. At the end of the day, it boils down to whatever ZoS priorities are

susmitds · May 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I am going to call the 'Emperor has no Clothes' in regards to the QQ-ing going on here.

DK powers are solid right now. We are nowhere near the level of disparity that many of you claim. The one area that you *MIGHT* have a legitimate gripe about underperformance is in PVP and that's pretty much a minigame that comprises less than 20% of the content of ESO. I'm more concerned about the majority experience for players across the board. I'd say I am sorry, but I am not. PVP must ALWAYS come secondary to PVE. That's not just design sense, that's business sense. Allocation of resources goes where cost-benefit analysis shows is practical.

The next thing to consider before you continue to whine is that visual changes are the EASIEST and fastest to implement during an incremental patch process. UI and coding can be adjusted and rewritten, but they must be tested and debugged to insure they don't break anything already existing before being implemented even on a test environment like PTS.

TLDR: Get a grip and stop your whining. Learn to be patient.

@WhiteNoiseMaker

4. PVP balance should be a priority over PVE balance because its much easier to tweak PVE content than to control what players do in PVP.
5. Visual changes actually take MUCH longer than adjusting some numbers in a spread sheet or excluding an ability from a debuff, but thanks for your insight here!

@Ghost-Shot

Sorry I must disagree with you.

4) No. PvP balance should never be the priority. It is this kind of thought that some people have that is ruining PvE for us.
5) Visual Changes take around a few hours at most to make, given that they already have the base textures to do so. This is coming from a Graphics modder. You can Google me if you want. Skill change on the other hand takes a lot more things to judge.

WhiteNoiseMaker · May 2016

Recremen wrote: »

You are misapprehending the breadth of PvP content. It is relevant in both a leveling and, especially, an end-game content setting, and therefore the number of players involved is a better metric for how "niche" or "mainstream" it is. Since most of the servers have several factions poplocked every night, it is clearly more "mainstream" than "niche", so your assessments based on that point are falling quite flat.

You'll need to back up your claim of relevancy. How does PVP play affect leveling in comparison and contrast to PVE play? What standards are you applying? Potential skill points? Exclusive or shared gear sets? How does PVP become more relevant in an endgame situation as you described? What established benchmarks are you using here? The content creators have made no such requirements for endgame content, nor have they even made it extraordinarily attractive in terms of mechanical rewards-versus-time-invested. All content in the PVE side is accomplish-able without ever engaging in PVP. As far as pop-locked campaigns, that has not been my observation, particularly for BWB and Azura. But the assertion that a pop-locked server establishes relevancy is a fallacy. Artificial population limits for a game-within-a-game only serve to confirm that that the constituent PVP population can only be supported by an allocated fraction of server resources, as opposed to enjoying the breadth of megaserver status the game as a whole enjoys.

DUTCH_REAPER · May 2016

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

[
Do list who the "competitive mDKs" are in pvp please? Because I'm always on mine and I can't remember the last time I fought a mDK in pvp ...just saying. Not saying there aren't any it's just hardly anyone plays that specific class makeup currently which in my opinion is a problem for pvp which btw having 8 vets currently I play 90% of my time in pvp. not trying to sling mud in your face man it's just that some of the comments you made don't really add up is all.

True Flame NA server here btw

I wouldn't know them by name, but I also wasn't specifically addressing magicka DK's either. Tools in the toolbox are what you use for a given situation. I would not choose to drive a Ford F150 in a NASCAR race, nor would I choose a Formula 51 racer as a long-distance touring vehicle. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole seems futile to me. Play whatever works best for a given purpose. Right now, that seems to be Stam-DK's for Cyrodil.

But you just named it. You said it seems Stam-DK is best for pvp. Yet other classes have Magic and Stam as very viable options for pvpn. As a guy who has played since PC beta this class has fallen hard in terms of pvp specifically mDK. Now we are soooo much better off then we were with the last patch but I hope they are not done because if they are I will remain the "Square peg" consistently trying to go into that round hole. On pve side my mDK is a dps god. I mean come on don't you think GDB and CDB is worthless to slot in cyrodil? Or do you not pvp at all? I do both trials and pvp.

For a game that claims play anyway you want, then I say to them balance the game better.

susmitds · May 2016

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

[
Do list who the "competitive mDKs" are in pvp please? Because I'm always on mine and I can't remember the last time I fought a mDK in pvp ...just saying. Not saying there aren't any it's just hardly anyone plays that specific class makeup currently which in my opinion is a problem for pvp which btw having 8 vets currently I play 90% of my time in pvp. not trying to sling mud in your face man it's just that some of the comments you made don't really add up is all.

True Flame NA server here btw

I wouldn't know them by name, but I also wasn't specifically addressing magicka DK's either. Tools in the toolbox are what you use for a given situation. I would not choose to drive a Ford F150 in a NASCAR race, nor would I choose a Formula 51 racer as a long-distance touring vehicle. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole seems futile to me. Play whatever works best for a given purpose. Right now, that seems to be Stam-DK's for Cyrodil.

Yet other classes have Magic and Stam as very viable options for pvpn. As a guy who has played since PC beta this class has fallen hard in terms of pvp specifically mDK.

Requiscat in Pace, stamina sorcerer.

Magicka DK used to be the most OP class, till block nerf.

DUTCH_REAPER · May 2016

#STOPNERFN

susmitds wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

[
Do list who the "competitive mDKs" are in pvp please? Because I'm always on mine and I can't remember the last time I fought a mDK in pvp ...just saying. Not saying there aren't any it's just hardly anyone plays that specific class makeup currently which in my opinion is a problem for pvp which btw having 8 vets currently I play 90% of my time in pvp. not trying to sling mud in your face man it's just that some of the comments you made don't really add up is all.

True Flame NA server here btw

I wouldn't know them by name, but I also wasn't specifically addressing magicka DK's either. Tools in the toolbox are what you use for a given situation. I would not choose to drive a Ford F150 in a NASCAR race, nor would I choose a Formula 51 racer as a long-distance touring vehicle. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole seems futile to me. Play whatever works best for a given purpose. Right now, that seems to be Stam-DK's for Cyrodil.

Yet other classes have Magic and Stam as very viable options for pvpn. As a guy who has played since PC beta this class has fallen hard in terms of pvp specifically mDK.

Requiscat in Pace, stamina sorcerer.

Magicka DK used to be the most OP class, till block nerf.

I know man /wipetear they need to stop this madness with the nerfs.

Khaos_Bane · May 2016

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

#STOPNERFN

susmitds wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

[
Do list who the "competitive mDKs" are in pvp please? Because I'm always on mine and I can't remember the last time I fought a mDK in pvp ...just saying. Not saying there aren't any it's just hardly anyone plays that specific class makeup currently which in my opinion is a problem for pvp which btw having 8 vets currently I play 90% of my time in pvp. not trying to sling mud in your face man it's just that some of the comments you made don't really add up is all.

True Flame NA server here btw

I wouldn't know them by name, but I also wasn't specifically addressing magicka DK's either. Tools in the toolbox are what you use for a given situation. I would not choose to drive a Ford F150 in a NASCAR race, nor would I choose a Formula 51 racer as a long-distance touring vehicle. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole seems futile to me. Play whatever works best for a given purpose. Right now, that seems to be Stam-DK's for Cyrodil.

Yet other classes have Magic and Stam as very viable options for pvpn. As a guy who has played since PC beta this class has fallen hard in terms of pvp specifically mDK.

Requiscat in Pace, stamina sorcerer.

Magicka DK used to be the most OP class, till block nerf.

I know man /wipetear they need to stop this madness with the nerfs.

The problem is that their nerfs often DESTROY an entire PLAYSTYLE. They completely change how a class plays and feels. So the class and playstyle you enjoy is completely obliterated. Watch them change the SORC into a stupid F***ing pet class.

Recremen · May 2016

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

You are misapprehending the breadth of PvP content. It is relevant in both a leveling and, especially, an end-game content setting, and therefore the number of players involved is a better metric for how "niche" or "mainstream" it is. Since most of the servers have several factions poplocked every night, it is clearly more "mainstream" than "niche", so your assessments based on that point are falling quite flat.

You'll need to back up your claim of relevancy. How does PVP play affect leveling in comparison and contrast to PVE play? What standards are you applying? Potential skill points? Exclusive or shared gear sets? How does PVP become more relevant in an endgame situation as you described? What established benchmarks are you using here? The content creators have made no such requirements for endgame content, nor have they even made it extraordinarily attractive in terms of mechanical rewards-versus-time-invested. All content in the PVE side is accomplish-able without ever engaging in PVP. As far as pop-locked campaigns, that has not been my observation, particularly for BWB and Azura. But the assertion that a pop-locked server establishes relevancy is a fallacy. Artificial population limits for a game-within-a-game only serve to confirm that that the constituent PVP population can only be supported by an allocated fraction of server resources, as opposed to enjoying the breadth of megaserver status the game as a whole enjoys.

There are a few types of PvE content, the zones, the dungeons, and the trials (plus a few systems like the Justice System). You can skip all of those and still reach max level through PvP, which some people make a specific effort to accomplish. Thus, your claim that there is less of a breadth of content in PvP is inaccurate. The benchmark here is progression to end-game content, as only end-game content is particularly affected by ability changes and the like. WHile the PvE content tells a lot of great stories during the leveling experience, it is a complete snoozefest in terms of combat complexity. Not that I think that's bad, but you are clearly conflating leveling content with end-game content when it comes to where ZOS should focus their combat and systems changes.

Poplocked campaigns are an entirely fair benchmark considering just how many players the cap allows. It's a fallacy to ignore the actual numbers and just write it off as an artificial cap. The salary cap for many different kinds of US government work is over 100k, for instance. Sure, it's a cap, but the hard fact is that's more than most Americans are making.

You also keep making this "game-within-a-game" analogy that frankly could be just as easily applied to PvE activities. You have no ground to stand on trying to make PvP out to be some niche activity.

Ishammael · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Magicka DK used to be the most OP class, till block nerf.

During the 1.5 --> 1.6 transition, the mDK lost the following:
1. Miss chance on cinder storm
2. Unlimited reflect
3. Dynamic ultimate

I'd say those have much more to do w/ DK fall from grace than the "block nerf" -- which has actually been a succession of nerfs (increased cost --> loss of stam regen --> loss of bracing passive). But there are other, less quantifiable changes to the DK class:

1. No gap closer. When block cost was increased it became (mostly) non-viable to run invasion on a mDK. mDK got a semi-working gap closer only with the TG patch.
2. No soft caps. This game mechanic change affected mDK more than any other class. mDK relies on a group of skills to get high damage, utilizing many spaces on their skill bars. It is much more easier to stack one stat and spam one skill will devoting the rest of your ability choices to defense and utility. The earlier days of 1.6 / Dawnbreaker meta were just absurd.
3. Shields. This is essentially a no soft caps issue. Un-capped regen means shields are spammable. Un-capped mana means shields become huge. QED.
4. Battle Spirit Debuff (IC Patch). No stam regen while blocking, Half healing. Half shields. GET REKT mDK.

The point is that mDK, more than any other class, has been affected by core gameplay mechanic changes. There are a huge range of reasons for this. At launch, mDK was the most "complete" class. Its skills and passives made the most sense as a whole. They also fit well within the context of the game and how the game was played. With the exception of some stupid Sorc/Vamp builds in 1.0, this was true well into 1.3 and 1.4. Because mDK made the most sense, it was the easiest to play. Its feature skills -- reflect, Battle Roar, Banner -- became the "noob stomping" abilities b/c players simply hadn't learn how to avoid and counter them. Was the Battle Roar / Dynamic Ultimate mechanic overtuned? Yes -- but it only needed a few adjustments.

Fast forward to today -- mDK has been left in the dust via gameplay mechanic changes and lack of its original class vision. This is why I vehemently disagree with the notion that mDK should get an execute or movement skill. DK has always been about standing your ground in PvP. Damage has always been lackluster. Give me back Dragon Blood, Reflect, Cinder Storm, and some method to generate a little bit of extra ultimate.

Ghost-Shot · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I am going to call the 'Emperor has no Clothes' in regards to the QQ-ing going on here.

DK powers are solid right now. We are nowhere near the level of disparity that many of you claim. The one area that you *MIGHT* have a legitimate gripe about underperformance is in PVP and that's pretty much a minigame that comprises less than 20% of the content of ESO. I'm more concerned about the majority experience for players across the board. I'd say I am sorry, but I am not. PVP must ALWAYS come secondary to PVE. That's not just design sense, that's business sense. Allocation of resources goes where cost-benefit analysis shows is practical.

The next thing to consider before you continue to whine is that visual changes are the EASIEST and fastest to implement during an incremental patch process. UI and coding can be adjusted and rewritten, but they must be tested and debugged to insure they don't break anything already existing before being implemented even on a test environment like PTS.

TLDR: Get a grip and stop your whining. Learn to be patient.

@WhiteNoiseMaker

4. PVP balance should be a priority over PVE balance because its much easier to tweak PVE content than to control what players do in PVP.
5. Visual changes actually take MUCH longer than adjusting some numbers in a spread sheet or excluding an ability from a debuff, but thanks for your insight here!

@Ghost-Shot

Sorry I must disagree with you.

4) No. PvP balance should never be the priority. It is this kind of thought that some people have that is ruining PvE for us.
5) Visual Changes take around a few hours at most to make, given that they already have the base textures to do so. This is coming from a Graphics modder. You can Google me if you want. Skill change on the other hand takes a lot more things to judge.

Realistically neither should be a priority but if one must I honestly believe PVP should be the priority, PVE is a static environment where I don't think balance is nearly as important, it is important but not nearly as much as well balanced PVP. Not everyone is going to agree with me and that's fine but that's my opinion as someone who who participates in both sides of the game.

DUTCH_REAPER · May 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Magicka DK used to be the most OP class, till block nerf.

During the 1.5 --> 1.6 transition, the mDK lost the following:
1. Miss chance on cinder storm
2. Unlimited reflect
3. Dynamic ultimate

I'd say those have much more to do w/ DK fall from grace than the "block nerf" -- which has actually been a succession of nerfs (increased cost --> loss of stam regen --> loss of bracing passive). But there are other, less quantifiable changes to the DK class:

1. No gap closer. When block cost was increased it became (mostly) non-viable to run invasion on a mDK. mDK got a semi-working gap closer only with the TG patch.
2. No soft caps. This game mechanic change affected mDK more than any other class. mDK relies on a group of skills to get high damage, utilizing many spaces on their skill bars. It is much more easier to stack one stat and spam one skill will devoting the rest of your ability choices to defense and utility. The earlier days of 1.6 / Dawnbreaker meta were just absurd.
3. Shields. This is essentially a no soft caps issue. Un-capped regen means shields are spammable. Un-capped mana means shields become huge. QED.
4. Battle Spirit Debuff (IC Patch). No stam regen while blocking, Half healing. Half shields. GET REKT mDK.

The point is that mDK, more than any other class, has been affected by core gameplay mechanic changes. There are a huge range of reasons for this. At launch, mDK was the most "complete" class. Its skills and passives made the most sense as a whole. They also fit well within the context of the game and how the game was played. With the exception of some stupid Sorc/Vamp builds in 1.0, this was true well into 1.3 and 1.4. Because mDK made the most sense, it was the easiest to play. Its feature skills -- reflect, Battle Roar, Banner -- became the "noob stomping" abilities b/c players simply hadn't learn how to avoid and counter them. Was the Battle Roar / Dynamic Ultimate mechanic overtuned? Yes -- but it only needed a few adjustments.

Fast forward to today -- mDK has been left in the dust via gameplay mechanic changes and lack of its original class vision. This is why I vehemently disagree with the notion that mDK should get an execute or movement skill. DK has always been about standing your ground in PvP. Damage has always been lackluster. Give me back Dragon Blood, Reflect, Cinder Storm, and some method to generate a little bit of extra ultimate.

+1 agree

Ghost-Shot · May 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Magicka DK used to be the most OP class, till block nerf.

During the 1.5 --> 1.6 transition, the mDK lost the following:
1. Miss chance on cinder storm
2. Unlimited reflect
3. Dynamic ultimate

I'd say those have much more to do w/ DK fall from grace than the "block nerf" -- which has actually been a succession of nerfs (increased cost --> loss of stam regen --> loss of bracing passive). But there are other, less quantifiable changes to the DK class:

1. No gap closer. When block cost was increased it became (mostly) non-viable to run invasion on a mDK. mDK got a semi-working gap closer only with the TG patch.
2. No soft caps. This game mechanic change affected mDK more than any other class. mDK relies on a group of skills to get high damage, utilizing many spaces on their skill bars. It is much more easier to stack one stat and spam one skill will devoting the rest of your ability choices to defense and utility. The earlier days of 1.6 / Dawnbreaker meta were just absurd.
3. Shields. This is essentially a no soft caps issue. Un-capped regen means shields are spammable. Un-capped mana means shields become huge. QED.
4. Battle Spirit Debuff (IC Patch). No stam regen while blocking, Half healing. Half shields. GET REKT mDK.

The point is that mDK, more than any other class, has been affected by core gameplay mechanic changes. There are a huge range of reasons for this. At launch, mDK was the most "complete" class. Its skills and passives made the most sense as a whole. They also fit well within the context of the game and how the game was played. With the exception of some stupid Sorc/Vamp builds in 1.0, this was true well into 1.3 and 1.4. Because mDK made the most sense, it was the easiest to play. Its feature skills -- reflect, Battle Roar, Banner -- became the "noob stomping" abilities b/c players simply hadn't learn how to avoid and counter them. Was the Battle Roar / Dynamic Ultimate mechanic overtuned? Yes -- but it only needed a few adjustments.

Fast forward to today -- mDK has been left in the dust via gameplay mechanic changes and lack of its original class vision. This is why I vehemently disagree with the notion that mDK should get an execute or movement skill. DK has always been about standing your ground in PvP. Damage has always been lackluster. Give me back Dragon Blood, Reflect, Cinder Storm, and some method to generate a little bit of extra ultimate.

Didn't you hear, as some one who has a fundamental understanding of the Dragon Knight you are not allowed to post this nonsense here, you are breaking my immersion.

Armitas · May 2016

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

Please go back to school and study your fundamentals of argumentation.

The reason why I never replied to your obsidian shard reply was not because I thought you made a good case. You didn't, though I'm sure you think you did. The reason I didn't reply was because I recognized that your extensive sense of self would prevail over you apparent lack of experience on the subject and would result in an ongoing dilution of the thread. You can list all the formal fallacies you want but it won't mask your complete inexperience with the subject you are debating.

You haven't been here long enough to tell us to be patient; quoting "incremental threads" as if we haven't heard that for a year already. You haven't been here long enough to know what we have lost. You weren't here in beta when we did massive burn in tests for PvP, you weren't here to see how many campaigns we had at the beginning now lost to progressive lag. You haven't even been here long enough to know that we have been referring to PvP for the majority of these posts, and that we are referring to mDK.

You are not helping this thread or the DK. You are in fact hurting it because you are incapable of realizing or even considering how ill equipped you are to be making these comments. You are not adding anything to the thread at this point, you are just flailing about in any way you can to try to gather legitimacy to your comments which are neither backed by experience or an understanding of PvP.

WhiteNoiseMaker · May 2016

Armitas wrote: »

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

Please go back to school and study your fundamentals of argumentation.

The reason why I never replied to your obsidian shard reply was not because I thought you made a good case. You didn't, though I'm sure you think you did. The reason I didn't reply was because I recognized that your extensive sense of self would prevail over you apparent lack of experience on the subject and would result in an ongoing dilution of the thread. You can list all the formal fallacies you want but it won't mask your complete inexperience with subject you are debating.

You haven't been here long enough to tell us to be patient; quoting "incremental threads" as if we haven't heard that for a year already. You haven't been here long enough to know what we have lost. You weren't here in beta when we did massive burn in tests for PvP, you weren't here to see how many campaigns we had at the beginning now lost to progressive lag. You haven't even been here long enough to know that we have been referring to PvP for the majority of these posts, and that we are referring to mDK.

You are not helping this thread or the DK. You are in fact hurting it because you are incapable of realizing or even considering how ill equipped you are to be making these comments. You are not adding anything to the thread at this point, you are just flailing about in any way you can to try to gather legitimacy to your comments which are neither backed by experience or an understanding of PvP.

Again,. you've neatly sidestepped the fact that you have continually failed to make any cogent arguments. All you and others have done is make arguments of assertion, repeating something over and over again, as if repetition makes it true. I honestly don't care how long you've been repeating the same message because it's a fallacious message. You've been focused on complaining about PVP and mDK 'balance' issues as if that encompasses everything in a Dragonknight Testing Feedback thread ON A PVE DLC FOR STAMINA. Think about that for a moment.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, but expecting different results"

I've listened very attentively to people who have taken the time to cite sources, show test data, and generally make a cogent argument. You and yours, however, fail to do any of the above. Instead you continually make fallacy-arguments and ad-hom statements to push an agenda that you've failed to show as necessary or deserving of attention. That's why I poke holes in your assertions. Don't act so surprised or wounded when your 'feedback' is ignored by the Devs. You have only yourselves to blame.

Armitas · May 2016

Guys I realize you may want to make replies but for the same reason I mentioned in my last paragraph it will only dilute the thread. Just move forward from here.

Teridaxus · May 2016

Actually not only magicka dks. We heavy tank dks would benefit from a stronger dragon blood too since we have less stam and weapon damage which results in a weaker vigor and rally ( still much better than current db in pvp )
Also since it scaled with health, it used to be a strong heal for both stam and magicka, the latter just being able to use it more.

WhiteNoiseMaker · May 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Magicka DK used to be the most OP class, till block nerf.

(snip)

Fast forward to today -- mDK has been left in the dust via gameplay mechanic changes and lack of its original class vision. This is why I vehemently disagree with the notion that mDK should get an execute or movement skill. DK has always been about standing your ground in PvP. Damage has always been lackluster. Give me back Dragon Blood, Reflect, Cinder Storm, and some method to generate a little bit of extra ultimate.

I actually find all the issues listed and commented upon to be far more enlightening than the general QQing. I especially agree that there could be some improvements in regards to Cinders and Chains/Grip. As much as I think Battle Spirit is terrible overall for PVP, it seems to have hit all classes equally devastating below the belt, so am not sure if the DK is left in an overall worse position as a result.... I'd have to think more on that.

I agree with Ishammael that the perceived 'spirit' is about consistently enduring strength, not sudden feats of strength. Everything in the way the class 'feels' through play and lore lends itself to that. I would feel like it'd become a cookie cutter class if it played like any of the others. Would I like those aforementioned class changes to the DK powers to be relaxed? Of course. But I am not going to whine incessantly about them in a thread for a Stam-Based DLC feedback.

Elsonso · May 2016

Armitas wrote: »

GRYM.LOCKE wrote: »

what does the visual effects looks like now ?

can anyone post screenshot please?

(thanks to Valorin for picture)

Thanks for posting this in here.

That is a significant improvement over what they had before. I will have to see what it looks like animated, but this looks to be a good change.

Mojmir · May 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

GRYM.LOCKE wrote: »

what does the visual effects looks like now ?

can anyone post screenshot please?

(thanks to Valorin for picture)

Thanks for posting this in here.

That is a significant improvement over what they had before. I will have to see what it looks like animated, but this looks to be a good change.

how about the searing strike morph?

Armitas · May 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

GRYM.LOCKE wrote: »

what does the visual effects looks like now ?

can anyone post screenshot please?

(thanks to Valorin for picture)

Thanks for posting this in here.

That is a significant improvement over what they had before. I will have to see what it looks like animated, but this looks to be a good change.

how about the searing strike morph?

All pics are from Valorin so be sure to thank him in his thread here.

Valorin wrote: »

Venomous Claw:

Valorin wrote: »

And Corrosive Armour

Mojmir · May 2016

Armitas wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

GRYM.LOCKE wrote: »

what does the visual effects looks like now ?

can anyone post screenshot please?

(thanks to Valorin for picture)

Thanks for posting this in here.

That is a significant improvement over what they had before. I will have to see what it looks like animated, but this looks to be a good change.

how about the searing strike morph?

All pics are from Valorin so be sure to thank him in his thread here.

Venomous Claw:

Valorin wrote: »

And Corrosive Armour

[/quote]

sexy

AfkNinja · May 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

GRYM.LOCKE wrote: »

what does the visual effects looks like now ?

can anyone post screenshot please?

(thanks to Valorin for picture)

Thanks for posting this in here.

That is a significant improvement over what they had before. I will have to see what it looks like animated, but this looks to be a good change.

how about the searing strike morph?

All pics are from Valorin so be sure to thank him in his thread here.

Venomous Claw:

Valorin wrote: »

And Corrosive Armour

sexy

I think it also looks sexy and I am now working on my Redguard DK....

WhiteNoiseMaker · May 2016

This isn't the best set of captures, but it was easy to grab with Gyazo. Hope this helps.

Here's Noxious Breath

And here's Venomous Claw

Hemaka · May 2016

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

You've been focused on complaining about PVP and mDK 'balance' issues as if that encompasses everything in a Dragonknight Testing Feedback thread ON A PVE DLC FOR STAMINA. Think about that for a moment.

And where did you read that it's a pve dlc for stamina? Cause I don't think anyone can make such assumptions only because a DLC adds one small pve zone and makes - among many others - changes to stamina morphs/skills.
Yes, pvp is and should be major factor for game balance simply because you're playing against other people there and not against stupid AI. The best way would be to difference pvp skill effects from pve effects (like it was done in Guild Wars 1 as far as I remember). But since it won't be done, we should agree that pvp balance > pve balance.
And yes, mDKs are somewhat crap in pvp - imo simply because it's a class without proper burst damage in a burst meta. Dragon blood buff won't change anything. Just my point of view.
Don't bother replying to this post, I won't read or answer any other of your pointlessly long essays.

Edit: few typos

Ishammael · May 2016

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

Please go back to school and study your fundamentals of argumentation.

The reason why I never replied to your obsidian shard reply was not because I thought you made a good case. You didn't, though I'm sure you think you did. The reason I didn't reply was because I recognized that your extensive sense of self would prevail over you apparent lack of experience on the subject and would result in an ongoing dilution of the thread. You can list all the formal fallacies you want but it won't mask your complete inexperience with subject you are debating.

You haven't been here long enough to tell us to be patient; quoting "incremental threads" as if we haven't heard that for a year already. You haven't been here long enough to know what we have lost. You weren't here in beta when we did massive burn in tests for PvP, you weren't here to see how many campaigns we had at the beginning now lost to progressive lag. You haven't even been here long enough to know that we have been referring to PvP for the majority of these posts, and that we are referring to mDK.

You are not helping this thread or the DK. You are in fact hurting it because you are incapable of realizing or even considering how ill equipped you are to be making these comments. You are not adding anything to the thread at this point, you are just flailing about in any way you can to try to gather legitimacy to your comments which are neither backed by experience or an understanding of PvP.

Again,. you've neatly sidestepped the fact that you have continually failed to make any cogent arguments. All you and others have done is make arguments of assertion, repeating something over and over again, as if repetition makes it true. I honestly don't care how long you've been repeating the same message because it's a fallacious message. You've been focused on complaining about PVP and mDK 'balance' issues as if that encompasses everything in a Dragonknight Testing Feedback thread ON A PVE DLC FOR STAMINA. Think about that for a moment.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over, but expecting different results"

I've listened very attentively to people who have taken the time to cite sources, show test data, and generally make a cogent argument. You and yours, however, fail to do any of the above. Instead you continually make fallacy-arguments and ad-hom statements to push an agenda that you've failed to show as necessary or deserving of attention. That's why I poke holes in your assertions. Don't act so surprised or wounded when your 'feedback' is ignored by the Devs. You have only yourselves to blame.

Here is what you need to understand
1. Armitas and Ghost-Shot have been members of this community for a long time. People argue and discuss with them because they are vocal and because they understand the game well. They both exhibit stand out behavior.
2. You claim they have posted argument fallacies. I have seen zero data and zero references in your post. Please explain this discrepancy.
3. Whether or not this is a PvE DLC, a PvP DLC, or a "Stamina" patch does not make our comments on mDK any less valid. ZOS actually does have a history of listening to its players.
4. mDK used to be extremely fun to play. Now it is an exercise in frustration. Almost all of the past notable DKs have expressed this to me (Asgari, BBQ, Leo, etc). We the players want to play the class it used to be.

mrkurokishi · May 2016

PVE needs to have their

Ishammael wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Magicka DK used to be the most OP class, till block nerf.

During the 1.5 --> 1.6 transition, the mDK lost the following:
1. Miss chance on cinder storm
2. Unlimited reflect
3. Dynamic ultimate

I'd say those have much more to do w/ DK fall from grace than the "block nerf" -- which has actually been a succession of nerfs (increased cost --> loss of stam regen --> loss of bracing passive). But there are other, less quantifiable changes to the DK class:

1. No gap closer. When block cost was increased it became (mostly) non-viable to run invasion on a mDK. mDK got a semi-working gap closer only with the TG patch.
2. No soft caps. This game mechanic change affected mDK more than any other class. mDK relies on a group of skills to get high damage, utilizing many spaces on their skill bars. It is much more easier to stack one stat and spam one skill will devoting the rest of your ability choices to defense and utility. The earlier days of 1.6 / Dawnbreaker meta were just absurd.
3. Shields. This is essentially a no soft caps issue. Un-capped regen means shields are spammable. Un-capped mana means shields become huge. QED.
4. Battle Spirit Debuff (IC Patch). No stam regen while blocking, Half healing. Half shields. GET REKT mDK.

The point is that mDK, more than any other class, has been affected by core gameplay mechanic changes. There are a huge range of reasons for this. At launch, mDK was the most "complete" class. Its skills and passives made the most sense as a whole. They also fit well within the context of the game and how the game was played. With the exception of some stupid Sorc/Vamp builds in 1.0, this was true well into 1.3 and 1.4. Because mDK made the most sense, it was the easiest to play. Its feature skills -- reflect, Battle Roar, Banner -- became the "noob stomping" abilities b/c players simply hadn't learn how to avoid and counter them. Was the Battle Roar / Dynamic Ultimate mechanic overtuned? Yes -- but it only needed a few adjustments.

Fast forward to today -- mDK has been left in the dust via gameplay mechanic changes and lack of its original class vision. This is why I vehemently disagree with the notion that mDK should get an execute or movement skill. DK has always been about standing your ground in PvP. Damage has always been lackluster. Give me back Dragon Blood, Reflect, Cinder Storm, and some method to generate a little bit of extra ultimate.

You nailed it on the head. If ZoS doesn't look at anything else as far as mDK, I hope they see this post as it underlines the core issues with mDK

ZoM_Head · May 2016

BlackMadara wrote: »

A couple of things that I have thought about and researched about mag DK:
I used an online tooltip calculator to compare each classes "spammable" skill's damage. This is based 3000 spell damage and 35000 max magicka. Granted, not everyone is going to have the same stats, some builds can afford more offensive stats and some more defensive.

DK flame lash has a 6348 tooltip and power lash a 7942 tooltip.
NB concealed weapon has a 6851 tooltip and swallow soul a 6348 tooltip.
Sorc crystal frag has a 10225 tooltip.
Templar puncturing sweep has a 994 tooltip for 4 hits and dark flare a 12167 tooltip.

Now I believe that ZOS balances the spammable skills based on certain combinations and passives.

For DK, engulfing flames increases flame damage by 10% increasing flame lash tooltip to 6983 and power lash to 8736.
For NB, they have a large tooltip for concealed weapon and smaller one for swallow soul due to range. They also get bonuses for attacking from stealth and cc'd enemies.
For Sorc, crystal frags has a very large tooltip due to its cast time and empowerment instacast proc.
For Temp, sweeps does 140% more damage to the first enemy hit for a 5566 tooltip with a 25% chance to proc burning light each hit for 3647 damage, so with 4 hits and one proc would be 9213 damage (rng math for more accurate number). Dark flare is large to due to cast time.

Flame lash and concealed weapon are the most easily comparable due to being both single target, instant cast, spammable skills. Flame lash is weaker unless power lash procs or engulfing flames is on the enemy. The time to apply the dot increases time to kill for a DK compared to a NB but would mean more dps past a certain point. PvP is more focused on lower time to kill however. Also, most DKs build tankier due to not having means to escape,control fights, or reliably reset fights like cloak, shields, streak, and a strong heal.

This is just so people can see side by side damage possibilities for magicka classes. I don't think that whip hits "like a noodle" its just other areas that DK lacks in that's the problem. Its not much, just some things that we need to better stand our ground and control fights the way that I think ZOS wants the class to specialize in (like the templar house).

Now for my suggestions (or dreams) for DK skill and passive changes.

I think that dragonblood should give a flat heal that increases by a percentage based on your missing health. Give it the same scaling a executes. This way, battle spirit doesn't hurt as much. I'd also like the heal to scale off magicka. Have it relatively weak at max health but stronger than breath of life at low due to it only healing yourself. Dragonblood will keep its niche as an anti-execute skill and still be equally affected by battle spirit like other skills.

Increase the radius of ash cloud and its morphs by 1-2 meters. Also, give cinder storm major evasion with a cast at feet (as others have said).

Major expedition on wings, for 4 seconds, instead of chains. It makes more sense to me, flapping wings to move faster, and is more versatile than having it on a gap closer.

Perhaps adding physical resistance with scaled armor, sense we are seen as the tankier class (I don't think we are).

There may be other things that could help DKs and some of my suggestions may not be the best but lets discuss.

Then please explain a Dunmer DK with 42K max magicka is dealing 3.2K flash Lash crits in pvp?

You need to take into consideration that one needs to stun/root/off balance and enemy and do two attacks of lash to get get it to proc (hello cc immunity), you also added engulfing flames in the mix. So you see how many skills are required to be used in order to get the max potential? not including traits and CP that make all those numbers much much lower.

Other classes use one or two skills and would still deal more than 3.2K crits, when the DK is rooting, applying engulfing, and two attacks of lash to get a proc, add to that the lack (or non exsistent) mobility, gap closer (please do not say chains), execute or effective heal when NOT using burning embers/lash/deep breath (basically a heal that does NOT require an enemy to be hit).