Restore Bracing - Never Ask for Buffs

Personofsecrets · April 2016

Kublakan wrote: »

Hi, I am not happy with this change of course. They are so afraid of the damage sinker a tank should be and used to be, that their change is making tank more like a hybrid.

I dont tank anymore, Im done with it until they reverse all the nerfing they done to this role. Now, I zap and slash with sorc and NB, they sort of push us out there.

My numbers are slightly off too, but I don't know why people feel that being shoehorned into using sturdy somehow makes us out to be in a good spot or even?

Reorx_Holybeard · April 2016

I too ran some simple block cost tests on Live/PTS to see the exact difference for my stamina DK tank. I used a custom add-on to get the stamina cost of blocking.

Setup was:

75 Points into Block Expertise (20.4%)
Fortress + Defensive Stance
Bracing on Live
3/2/1 Shield Play Jewelry Enchantments (Gold, 203 each)

Results are:

Shield-Play Items : Live Block Cost : PTS Block Cost
3 : 463 : 683
2 : 548 : 809
1 : 633 : 935

In order to get the same block cost on PTS as live I basically have to get 8 Sturdy items or go 4-5 Sturdy items and max Block Expertise. This doesn't consider the resource return from Constitution. From playing around with it a bit it would seem to be a net gain of Stamina recovery when you're fighting 1/2 mobs in PVE but a Stamina recovery loss as some point when your fighting a larger number of mobs.

Personofsecrets · April 2016

We also should consider that some enemies, such as one in maw, seem to not only cost stamina when blocking their regular attacks, but also when blocking their dots... That makes block cost shoot right up.

code65536 · April 2016

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

I too ran some simple block cost tests on Live/PTS to see the exact difference for my stamina DK tank. I used a custom add-on to get the stamina cost of blocking.

Setup was:
75 Points into Block Expertise (20.4%)

Fortress + Defensive Stance

Bracing on Live

3/2/1 Shield Play Jewelry Enchantments (Gold, 203 each)

Results are:
Shield-Play Items : Live Block Cost : PTS Block Cost

3 : 463 : 683

2 : 548 : 809

1 : 633 : 935

In order to get the same block cost on PTS as live I basically have to get 8 Sturdy items or go 4-5 Sturdy items and max Block Expertise. This doesn't consider the resource return from Constitution. From playing around with it a bit it would seem to be a net gain of Stamina recovery when you're fighting 1/2 mobs in PVE but a Stamina recovery loss as some point when your fighting a larger number of mobs.

Ugh. I'm sick and tired of PvE tanking taking a hit because of PvP. The stam regen nerf was in response to PvP permablockers. And now this "improvement" of heavy armor is in response to PvPers who, for some reason, think that it's a great idea to do DPS in heavy.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

I too ran some simple block cost tests on Live/PTS to see the exact difference for my stamina DK tank. I used a custom add-on to get the stamina cost of blocking.

Setup was:
75 Points into Block Expertise (20.4%)

Fortress + Defensive Stance

Bracing on Live

3/2/1 Shield Play Jewelry Enchantments (Gold, 203 each)

Results are:
Shield-Play Items : Live Block Cost : PTS Block Cost

3 : 463 : 683

2 : 548 : 809

1 : 633 : 935

In order to get the same block cost on PTS as live I basically have to get 8 Sturdy items or go 4-5 Sturdy items and max Block Expertise. This doesn't consider the resource return from Constitution. From playing around with it a bit it would seem to be a net gain of Stamina recovery when you're fighting 1/2 mobs in PVE but a Stamina recovery loss as some point when your fighting a larger number of mobs.

Ugh. I'm sick and tired of PvE tanking taking a hit because of PvP. The stam regen nerf was in response to PvP permablockers. And now this "improvement" of heavy armor is in response to PvPers who, for some reason, think that it's a great idea to do DPS in heavy.

Your ire is misplaced.

Vaelen · April 2016

I hope you all know that the Constitution passive stam regen on hit does not work while blocking, already tested it with full Black Rose on. So is this the end for pure PvE tanks?

Synozeer · April 2016

Vaelen wrote: »

I hope you all know that the Constitution passive stam regen on hit does not work while blocking, already tested it with full Black Rose on. So is this the end for pure PvE tanks?

I saw that too - figured it was my imagination. Hoping it's just one of the many bugs and not intentional.

Xsorus · April 2016

Vaelen wrote: »

I hope you all know that the Constitution passive stam regen on hit does not work while blocking, already tested it with full Black Rose on. So is this the end for pure PvE tanks?

Huh; when I tested it I most certainly was getting stamina back while blocking

KirinBlaze · April 2016

I posted this in another thread, but yeah.

Wrath is REALLY nice I am enjoying the damage increase, but losing the 20% Block Cost reduction really hurt heavy armor. That passive was one of the the biggest reasons people used Heavy Armor to begin with.

Now Heavy Armor builds are almost forced into using Sturdy to get back that lost reduction. 7 Pieces of Gold Sturdy will give you 21% reduced block cost reduction. So after getting back the lost 20%...Sturdy is actually only benefiting the HA user by 1%. (Consider the player already has 100 points to Block Expertise.) So as far as block cost goes for Heavy Armor...there is no change, only a nerf.

This seems a little ridiculous considering the changes to Well-Fitted and how Medium Armor's Athletics Passive didn't change. So Medium armor suffers no loss to the cost of roll-dodge and can benefit immediately from using Well-Fitted as a trait. Medium Armor still also receives the base weapon damage buff (Agility Passive 12% increased weapon damage at Rank 2.) that no other armor passive had up until this patch, so the argument trade off damage for our block cost reduction doesn't seem valid considering Medium Armor has always had this passive and 12% of X Wep Dmg is, in most cases, way more that the fully stacked 200 of Wrath.

If anything, perhaps the Passive Rapid Mending could be changed into giving Heavy Armor it's 20% Block Cost Reduction back over the increased healing while wearing a 5 piece heavy set. That is the only suggestion that comes to mind.

hrothbern · April 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Vaelen wrote: »

I hope you all know that the Constitution passive stam regen on hit does not work while blocking, already tested it with full Black Rose on. So is this the end for pure PvE tanks?

Huh; when I tested it I most certainly was getting stamina back while blocking

I can confirm that Constitution gives Stamina back while blocking

DKsUnite · April 2016

my suggestion that i will be presenting to Wrobel is:

combine juggernaut (health bonus) with constitution so its a 3 buff passive. You could move the health regen to the first passive aswell, to even it out. And then replace juggernaut with 10% (or 20%) block cost reduction. This would please both sides without making heavy armour too strong i think.

hrothbern · April 2016

Wrath of the HA skill line appears not to function.

When I gather really a lot of low level melee mobs around me and get hit all the time (including my health slowly going down)
Both the Weapon and Spell Damage values in the character overview do not change during the fight and stay at the same level as before the fight
The scrolling damage output shown in the ESO UI from my light attacks do not change as well, and have the same value as when I start a fight with a first hit.

Has somebody else tested it ?

code65536 · April 2016

I don't know where ZOS gets the idea that people (who know how to play this game) want these idiotic hybrid builds. DPS in heavy armor? Why? Heavy armor is for tanking. Removing the most important tanking passive in heavy armor and replacing it with this hybrid nonsense? What in bloody blazes was @Wrobel thinking?!

And, no, Constitution is not suitable compensation for the simple fact that it does not scale. It's a flat resource return every X seconds, regardless of how many things are beating on you. Contrast that with block cost reduction, which reduces the cost of every block (vs. reducing the cost of one block every X seconds). If you're tanking a single enemy, sure, Constitution makes up for the difference. But if you are tanking those Trash Pulls From Hell in vMoL where there's a gazillion things beating on your, Constitution is a joke.

HoloYoitsu · April 2016

I will just leave this here.

Dan_Fazzyub17_ESO wrote: »

The overhual to the Heavy Armor passive Bracing into Wrath.

Wrath is REALLY nice I am enjoying the damage increase, but losing the 20% Block Cost reduction really hurt heavy armor. That passive was one of the the biggest reasons people used Heavy Armor to begin with.

Now Heavy Armor builds are almost forced into using Sturdy to get back that lost reduction. 7 Pieces of Gold Sturdy will give you 21% reduced block cost reduction. So after getting back the lost 20%...Sturdy is actually only benefiting the HA user by 1%. (Consider the player already has 100 points to Block Expertise.) So as far as block cost goes for Heavy Armor...there is no change, only a nerf.

This seems a little ridiculous considering the changes to Well-Fitted and how Medium Armor's Athletics Passive didn't change. So Medium armor suffers no loss to the cost of roll-dodge and can benefit immediately from using Well-Fitted as a trait. Medium Armor still also receives the base weapon damage buff (Agility Passive 12% increased weapon damage at Rank 2.) that no other armor passive had up until this patch, so the argument trade off damage for our block cost reduction doesn't seem valid considering Medium Armor has always had this passive and 12% of X Wep Dmg is, in most cases, way more that the fully stacked 200 of Wrath.

If anything, perhaps the Passive Rapid Mending could be changed into giving Heavy Armor it's 20% Block Cost Reduction back over the increased healing. That is the only suggestion that comes to mind.

Liofa · April 2016

I will lose 3 Infused and 4 Divines effect for %1 cost reduction increase . Thanks for the great buff to the heavy armor . Now I can do more DPS with Pierce Armor ! Isn't this just great for PvE tanks ? How I love getting nerfed in every patch for ''PvP purposes'' .

In the next DLC :

Heavy Armor passive added . ''Stupidly Brave'' : If using 5 or more Heavy , gain the ability ''Helmet Throw'' . Throw your helmet to the enemy , dealing no damage but 0.5 second stun and gain Minor Expedition until you get your helmet back . It takes 2 slots in your Ability Bar due to throwing and taking the helmet are different actions .

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 · April 2016

The worst thing its they say nothing.Not even a hint on why the change was made.

Xsorus · April 2016

Liofa wrote: »

I will lose 3 Infused and 4 Divines effect for %1 cost reduction increase . Thanks for the great buff to the heavy armor . Now I can do more DPS with Pierce Armor ! Isn't this just great for PvE tanks ? How I love getting nerfed in every patch for ''PvP purposes'' .

In the next DLC :

Heavy Armor passive added . ''Stupidly Brave'' : If using 5 or more Heavy , gain the ability ''Helmet Throw'' . Throw your helmet to the enemy , dealing no damage but 0.5 second stun and gain Minor Expedition until you get your helmet back . It takes 2 slots in your Ability Bar due to throwing and taking the helmet are different actions .

200 weapon power and spell power is more damage then you'll get from divines or infused. If you went for bonus health you now get double the health bonus you got before; and you now get a crap ton more regen back as well... Under no circumstances are you being nerfed.

DDuke · April 2016

code65536 wrote: »

I don't know where ZOS gets the idea that people (who know how to play this game) want these idiotic hybrid builds. DPS in heavy armor? Why? Heavy armor is for tanking. Removing the most important tanking passive in heavy armor and replacing it with this hybrid nonsense? What in bloody blazes was @Wrobel thinking?!

And, no, Constitution is not suitable compensation for the simple fact that it does not scale. It's a flat resource return every X seconds, regardless of how many things are beating on you. Contrast that with block cost reduction, which reduces the cost of every block (vs. reducing the cost of one block every X seconds). If you're tanking a single enemy, sure, Constitution makes up for the difference. But if you are tanking those Trash Pulls From Hell in vMoL where there's a gazillion things beating on your, Constitution is a joke.

I urge you to take a look at several RPG archetypes, such as "Warrior" or "Paladin", which have always traditionally used heavy armor while dealing damage.

Shoehorning damage dealers into either becoming "rogues" or "mages" helps nobody & monotonizes the game.

I'm happy that after 2 years, ZOS is finally taking some steps to alleviate this problem.

Also, as I've stated numerous times in this thread: you do not need to tape down RMB to tank in this game. If you do, you're doing something wrong.

vMoL & possibly new SO might be a different story, but people will adapt & survive. Just like they did when "tanking died" after they removed stamina regen while blocking.

Dubhliam · April 2016

@DDuke @Xsorus
There are numerous threads that clearly say tanking is in a very bad spot right now.

And when I say tanking - I mean just that. Tank = a role in a group that takes aggro and mitigates damage.
Heavy Armor Damage dealers aside, this is not their topic.

So what does ZOS do?
Instead of listening to tanks, they nerf tanking even more.

Personofsecrets · April 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I will lose 3 Infused and 4 Divines effect for %1 cost reduction increase . Thanks for the great buff to the heavy armor . Now I can do more DPS with Pierce Armor ! Isn't this just great for PvE tanks ? How I love getting nerfed in every patch for ''PvP purposes'' .

In the next DLC :

Heavy Armor passive added . ''Stupidly Brave'' : If using 5 or more Heavy , gain the ability ''Helmet Throw'' . Throw your helmet to the enemy , dealing no damage but 0.5 second stun and gain Minor Expedition until you get your helmet back . It takes 2 slots in your Ability Bar due to throwing and taking the helmet are different actions .

200 weapon power and spell power is more damage then you'll get from divines or infused. If you went for bonus health you now get double the health bonus you got before; and you now get a crap ton more regen back as well... Under no circumstances are you being nerfed.

How do you rationally ignore the thief and shadow stone? It can't be that hard to just think for a moment.

"Are there any things that people would want from divines that increases their damage? Hehe, I guess only weapon and spell damage!"

Are you really that disconnected?

This is a big nerf as calculated in the OP.

Personofsecrets · April 2016

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 wrote: »

The worst thing its they say nothing.Not even a hint on why the change was made.

I think that people have mostly figured it out.

There were some people that wanted more damage as a tank and most of the top tier talks about increasing tank damage. For some reason the developers took that as a signal to remove the best heavy armor passive. I understand where they got the signal from, but I have no idea why they honed in on the best heavy armor passive and I hope that we can convince them that we can live in a world with both the bracing passive and the new sturdy trait. If we can't then just get rid of the sturdy trait - nobody is going to end up happy as a result of the muddied trait pool screwing up their otherwise BIS gear.

@ZOS_Finn

Actually, I do remember some people suggesting to change the 5-piece bonus or add a second one. Given tons of people with various skills, play styles, and preferred content, yea, you will find someone with that type of idea.

Cinbri · April 2016

I highly doubt that it will be revamped back(as such thing never happened before), so i think instead of asking of it to be revamped, we should ask:
1. Increase effectiveness of Wrath, coz lets be honest 200 spelldamage is weak and will be stacked to this maximum only when 3+ people will fight you Xv1 - than without Bracing you will be dead anyway and won't get any bonuses.
2. Increase effectivenss of other HA passives. Like, Resolve - super weak even in 7 heavy pieces, worse even than major armor buffs. Rapid Mending - 'This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.' Seriously? Don't know about PvE tanks but in PvP HA required to fight while outnumbered, try to weave heavy attack there, in most cases you will be punished for trying it in form of instant CC(that will require you to waste stamina on increased-costed CC break) or simply dead. Why don't just add Bracing reduce block cost here as it require to wear 5 pieces, so HA in DB really will be buffed.

hrothbern · April 2016

.

Cinbri wrote: »

I highly doubt that it will be revamped back(as such thing never happened before), so i think instead of asking of it to be revamped, we should ask:
1. Increase effectiveness of Wrath, coz lets be honest 200 spelldamage is weak and will be stacked to this maximum only when 3+ people will fight you Xv1 - than without Bracing you will be dead anyway and won't get any bonuses.
2. Increase effectivenss of other HA passives. Like, Resolve - super weak even in 7 heavy pieces, worse even than major armor buffs. Rapid Mending - 'This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.' Seriously? Don't know about PvE tanks but in PvP HA required to fight while outnumbered, try to weave heavy attack there, in most cases you will be dead for trying it. Why don't just add Bracing reduce block cost here as it require to wear 5 pieces, so HA in DB really will be buffed.

Double Resolve from 2.5k to 5k to compensate for Sturdy traits replacing Re-Inforced.
Double the bonus of Wrath or increase the stack duration to 10 seconds or so.
Rapid Mending buff was, I think, not aimed at Tanks, but for example tanky Templars.

In general HA is being manoeuvred to a general purpose tanky Armor and Blocking is nerfed.

I think, the PTS raids from the seasoned trial guilds should tell us whether this new HA is still ok for the niche PVE Tank role.

Personofsecrets · April 2016

Cinbri wrote: »

I highly doubt that it will be revamped back(as such thing never happened before), so i think instead of asking of it to be revamped, we should ask:
1. Increase effectiveness of Wrath, coz lets be honest 200 spelldamage is weak and will be stacked to this maximum only when 3+ people will fight you Xv1 - than without Bracing you will be dead anyway and won't get any bonuses.
2. Increase effectivenss of other HA passives. Like, Resolve - super weak even in 7 heavy pieces, worse even than major armor buffs. Rapid Mending - 'This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.' Seriously? Don't know about PvE tanks but in PvP HA required to fight while outnumbered, try to weave heavy attack there, in most cases you will be punished for trying it in form of instant CC(that will require you to waste stamina on increased-costed CC break) or simply dead. Why don't just add Bracing reduce block cost here as it require to wear 5 pieces, so HA in DB really will be buffed.

It says right in the patch notes that combat prioritization isn't changing for blocking based on past testing. That changed back because of player feedback.

code65536 · April 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Also, as I've stated numerous times in this thread: you do not need to tape down RMB to tank in this game. If you do, you're doing something wrong.

Bah, most of that content has been so overnerfed that you don't even need a tank. For the content where serious tanking is required, you're not going to have many (if any) 2-second pauses where you can let go.

DDuke · April 2016

code65536 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Also, as I've stated numerous times in this thread: you do not need to tape down RMB to tank in this game. If you do, you're doing something wrong.

Bah, most of that content has been so overnerfed that you don't even need a tank. For the content where serious tanking is required, you're not going to have many (if any) 2-second pauses where you can let go.

Yes, and for this reason the change isn't really a big deal. People doing the high-end content are players capable of adapting to the changes. I doubt vMoL will suddenly become impossible after this.

When they removed stamina regen while blocking (much bigger change than this one), the sky was falling & AA hardmode was supposed to be impossible... Now the sky is falling again, gospeled by the very same people as last time

I can't be the only one who finds that a bit funny.

That said, the other changes to heavy armor & certain class skills are an enormous buff to tanking. More health, more mitigation (Defending got buffed), more healing taken (a very big deal for magicka templar tanks), even more healing done/taken from the +200 (250 with buffs) weapon/spell damage...

It's not the end of the world, adapt & you'll find out tanks are in a much better place than before patch.

Weesacs · April 2016

It's not the end of the world, adapt & you'll find out tanks are in a much better place than before patch.

As a PvP tank, how does replacing impenetrable (a must in PvP) with sturdy, put myself, as a pure PvP tank who needs to perma-block against perma-wrecking-blowers, and impenetrable for the broken CC, in a much better place?

Please do enlighten me.

DDuke · April 2016

Weesacs wrote: »

It's not the end of the world, adapt & you'll find out tanks are in a much better place than before patch.

As a PvP tank, how does replacing impenetrable (a must in PvP) with sturdy, put myself, as a pure PvP tank who needs to perma-block against perma-wrecking-blowers, and impenetrable for the broken CC, in a much better place?

Please do enlighten me.

Why on earth would you replace impenetrable? :P

You don't need to permablock, I've been saying that for ages here on this thread. If you feel you have to, you're doing something wrong.

If you get enough mitigations (armor, spell resistance, crit resistance, CPs), you can easily take hits without blocking & just brush them off as they tickle you.

The only time I have to block on my templar is when I'm out of magicka & need to recover, or if there's literally a zerg on top of me.

Oh, and Wrecking Blow no longer CCs (nor does Rev Bash) in DB - the other morph still CCs, but grants no Empower (meaning 20% less dmg from that spam).

Weesacs · April 2016

You don't need to permablock, I've been saying that for ages here on this thread.

If you get enough mitigations (armor, spell resistance, crit resistance, CPs), you can easily take hits without blocking & just brush them off as they tickle you.

Really? So a DK spamming wrecking blow 2 hander against me I can just stand there and 'tickle it off' without blocking due to my armour, crit resistance and CPs?

Wow ... I really need to see this to believe it ... anyone on PTS prove this to me?

DDuke · April 2016

Weesacs wrote: »

You don't need to permablock, I've been saying that for ages here on this thread.

If you get enough mitigations (armor, spell resistance, crit resistance, CPs), you can easily take hits without blocking & just brush them off as they tickle you.

Really? So a DK spamming wrecking blow 2 hander against me I can just stand there and 'tickle it off' without blocking due to my armour, crit resistance and CPs?

Wow ... I really need to see this to believe it ... anyone on PTS prove this to me?

Yes. And not just one wrecking blower, you can tank 2-3 of them. More than that, you'll need them to have very low damage, or use Empowering Sweep :P

<Here> is what happens when you wrecking blow spam.

In next patch, WB spammers are even weaker & tanks stronger.

Uppercut: This ability and the Wrecking Blow morph no longer knockback and stun enemies hit.

Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.

Rapid Mending:Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%

I'd gladly prove this in PTS if I had access to my Live character, but alas I've only 300 CP templates with garbage gear there