Restore Bracing - Never Ask for Buffs

jzholloway

Personofsecrets wrote: »

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I know that so many of you have different ideas about tanking, but let me still ask the following question. Do tanks really need to get nerfed more?

Tanking does not need to get nerfed - if anything it needs a buff, but at the very least, just leave it alone. It feels like every patch we have to totally rework everything we have done to catch up to some mythical meta that doesn't even exist in the first place... examples? Stam DPS can still use Hundings and Night's Silence / Night Mothers and still rock (available in base game), Magika DPS got Julianos, but can still basically keep the same gear from patch to patch. Tanks - we go from histbark/footman to Armor Master, Pariah (haha.. a joke), to Tava, to God know whats next (and a million other sets that don't really do anything for us in between) - and still not everyone is happy with the gear tanks use.

I stopped caring about new gear / skills to be honest and decided to work with what ZOS has given me - make sure I get my resistance to cap with buffs, keep my health at 25k plus have enough stam and mag to use what I need, and as a DK make sure I am doing everything I can to get ultimate for resources.

Reduce the cost of blocking... increase it, whatever. At this point i almost wish ZOS would just leave us be - especially since it seems that it is the PvP community that wants tanks nerfed because they can be so indestructible or something in PvP.

DKsUnite

jzholloway wrote: »

especially since it seems that it is the PvP community that wants tanks nerfed because they can be so indestructible or something in PvP.

nah, i think alot of us want more tanky builds in there instead of the burst meta we have to deal with currently

Praeficere

I'm sure people will comment when they can but don't keep quoting the comment with 100s of @ tags in it.

jzholloway

DKsUnite wrote: »

jzholloway wrote: »

especially since it seems that it is the PvP community that wants tanks nerfed because they can be so indestructible or something in PvP.

nah, i think alot of us want more tanky builds in there instead of the burst meta we have to deal with currently

I meant to say before stam recovery was taken from tanks while blocking. Anyways, I'm sure there will be great changes for tanking (and all roles) in this patch. Likewise, there will be something that we don't like, which is typical. It kind of sucks that we will basically get three months with the current changes and then potentially have to rework our build once again to accommodate for the changes in DB. It feels like to me, with my tank, that I have to do more reqorking every patch then I do on my DPS characters - whether stam or magika. it feels like with them I can simply change some CP around, maybe recraft weapons with a different trait, etc. With my tank, it always feels like i need to create a whole new armor set to be relevant (this comes from someone still using Footman).

I could be totally dillusional - it is still morning and I've only had one cup of coffee, but that is what it feels like. i read the forums and its like "Stamina DPS what great things this patch?" "Magika DPS what great things this patch? "Tanks, what got nerfed?" - yes, I know skill changes effect more then just tanks, but again, that is what it feels like. For me, it would be great if we could go six months with everything just staying the same - for better or for worse - and see how it goes.

jzholloway

Praeficere wrote: »

I'm sure people will comment when they can but don't keep quoting the comment with 100s of @ tags in it.

yeah, that was my bad, thought I had deleted the tags when I quoted...

ManDraKE

For PVP this changes are great, for PvE no idea, i don't play it, but there isn't other way to play a PvE Tank that isn't perma blocking?

DDuke

You know, you can do more things as a tank than just hold the RMB...

I can tank all content in game apart from vMoL (haven't tanked there) with my Templar just by spamming sweeps. There are attacks that require blocking, but it's only the minority of time that is spent holding RMB.

I'd suggest you experiment with the skills & gear available to your class.


Tanking will be fine without the block cost reduction from heavy armor. In fact, heavy armor could even become the new meta with all the other buffs it's getting.

In fact, I'm a little afraid of how OP heavy armor magicka templar will be in PvP with all the buffs incoming...

jzholloway

DDuke wrote: »

You know, you can do more things as a tank than just hold the RMB...

I can tank all content in game apart from vMoL (haven't tanked there) with my Templar just by spamming sweeps. There are attacks that require blocking, but it's only the minority of time that is spent holding RMB.

I'd suggest you experiment with the skills & gear available to your class.


Tanking will be fine without the block cost reduction from heavy armor. In fact, heavy armor could even become the new meta with all the other buffs it's getting.

In fact, I'm a little afraid of how OP heavy armor magicka templar will be in PvP with all the buffs incoming...

Yep, main reason that taking away stam recovery didn't bother me - that and DK resource gain on ultimates

Ishammael

DDuke wrote: »

In fact, I'm a little afraid of how OP heavy armor magicka templar will be in PvP with all the buffs incoming...

HA magicka Templar gonna be sick.

Sugaroverdose

it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?

DDuke

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?

Strictly false.

I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.

I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.

Asayre

I wasn't unable to find a change in the block cost on the PTS. The base cost is still 2160. I included a video because the finding left me feeling incredulous

http://sendvid.com/9udfyii5

The block cost formula on the PTS appears to be


There is some rounding to 3 significant figures going on with the base cost of 2160, the Sturdy part and the Block Expertise so errors of up to 30 stamina is not uncommon. As an example of how to use the formula, I have 7 pieces of Legendary Sturdy gear (21%), 100 points in Block Expertise (25%), 3 block cost reduction glyphs (epic quality, 191 each, 573 total) and Skills is 38% due to Fortress (30%) and Defensive Posture (8%)



The in-game block cost is 470.

Wearing 7 pieces of heavy armour, Constitution returns 1302 Health/Stamina/Magicka every time you're hit with an ICD of 4 seconds. At your rate of one attack every 1.5 seconds, @Personofsecrets, it will be possible to permablock (and gain a marginal amount of stamina) with 7 the above setup.

Sugaroverdose

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?

Strictly false.

I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.

I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.

Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.

ClockworkArc

Dont change it back!

The block cost armor trait is something I never imagined woukd happen but it totally opens the door for medium armor tanking and such.

Also...heavy armor is amazing. I was dueling on my black rose stamplar and won almost every fight. Incidently, i only lost to magicka builds.

lonewolf26

Personofsecrets wrote: »

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I know that so many of you have different ideas about tanking, but let me still ask the following question. Do tanks really need to get nerfed more?

I've only really had time to read the patch notes on this, so thorough testing hasn't been done. All I can say is increasing the base cost of block and dodge is a terrible idea. I'm displeased to see for all of the feedback given in the tanking tread that the combat team thought this was even an acceptable thing to increase. Even of your intention is to grant some means of mitigation elsewhere, this is a bad practice.

AverageJo3Gam3r

Buff to constitution is more than enough to make up for bracing. If you really need to make up for bracing, you can always spec more champ points into block reduction or put a block cost glyph on your jewelry.

Tavas favor vs black rose as BiS tanking armor will be an interesting test.

I'm excited about the changes.

zerosingularity

hrothbern wrote: »

...

zerosingularity wrote: »

...

So it seems like it starts at base, then you take CP effects in, then reduce from jewelry, and finally reduce from everything else. Just gotta see where in the equation sturdy comes in, is it with CP, with everything else, or all on its own?

So then the loss of bracing amounts to on average 200-300 stam (depending on setup) PER BLOCK. [Can be more or less on certain setups, and I think this is with no sturdy items.]

In a single target fight, in 4 seconds that would likely be say, 4 hits, so 1200 stamina lost over live, but more magicka returned and mostly mitigated from Constitution. In this scenario the loss of Bracing it not really a nerf, since we remain relatively balanced out.

In ANY situation where there are a lot of mobs being tanked, or ground zones you cannot move out of in time, the stamina lost adds up to insane numbers. Here is where the nerf is.

Since the goal is to not stand in red, this is somewhat mitigated in PvE, and against lots of mobs, the tank generally doesn't block them all anyways(except axes in AA), and CC's them and helps the group. However in PvP, this nerfs tanks HARD, at least in regards to sustain.

All in all, the change is only a nerf in tanking large mobs it seems, and a buff everywhere else.

My question to ZoS, how do these changes make new players want to roll tanks? Just because experienced tanks can adapt, doesn't make it any easier to newcomers in the field. There is still little incentive to roll a tank aside from 0 group wait-time for pledges.

DDuke

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?

Strictly false.

I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.

I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.

Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.

This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.

Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.

At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s

I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.


Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.


The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)


These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.

DHale

This seems to penalize magic users and do essentially nothing to Stam users. As I have both Stam alts and Magic alts I can do two dodge rolls or break free at the most and I am done on all my magic toons. I feel my sorc got nerfed into the ground I will now have to cast my hardened ward three times as much which mean three times the cost. I get it if it was one third the cost I could support that somewhat. I felt well maybe I can dodge roll more or put the new cp available (also not happening) to offset this huge loss... Appears I was overly hopeful. I saw a lot of talk about balance. I see nerfs aplenty but no balance. I kinda hope I will wake up and this is all still an April fool joke of natch poets but I went on pts and it's terribly true.

hrothbern

.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

My guess is that the sturdy trait doesn't stack in the same way that bracing did. IF it does, then I don't think we are in a good place, but if it doesn't stack without diminished returns, then maybe people will stop saying how sturdy is a fine and dandy replacement.

well @Personofsecrets , Sturdy does indeed NOT stack like Fortress, Bracing and Defensive Posture morphs in live

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Sturdy is bugged and provides less block cost reduction than stated in the tooltip.
Base block costs are 2160, so with 8 pieces legendary sturdy armour (24% block cost reduction), this should be either
2160 x 0.76 = 1642 if it stacks additive or
2160 x 0.97^8 = 1693 if it stacks multiplicative.
But when testing it, blocking costs 1740.

It is the worst of the two @lolo_01b16_ESO , 8 traits do not give 8*3% = 24.00%, but 8 traits give 21.63% (from 100% - 97%^8)
BTW the new base value of Block Costs is 2196

To keep it factual here, to give some insight in what we need to change in our builds:
The old Formular for S&B with HA and Defensive Posture morph was:
Stamina Costs of Blocking per hit = (2160*CP% - Jewelry)*(100% - 20% - 30% - 8%)
With for example 75 CP in Block Expertise and 2 Jewelry enchants, this equated for: (2160*79.6% - 406)*(42%) = 564

The PTS Formular is:
Stamina Costs PTS = (2196*CP% - Jewelry)*(100% - 30% - 8%)*(97%^n) whereby n is the number of Sturdy traits.
After max reduction, with 25% CP, 3 Jewelry, 8 Sturdy, Fortress and Defensive Posture, the Stamina Costs per hit are 504

The exp table for the cost reduction of Sturdy traits is:
n % reduction
1 3,00%
2 5,91%
3 8,73%
4 11,47%
5 14,13%
6 16,70%
7 19,20%
8 21,63%

That 21.63% still looks at first glance not that bad compared to the 20% from Bracing
But because Sturdy is multiplicative with Fortres & Defensive Posture and not additive as Bracing...
the total effect of these 3 factors alone is (100% - 78.37%*38%) = 51.4%

If you deduct the 38% from this 51.4% you get 13.4%

So... the old Bracing of 20% is replaced by a Sturdy effect of 13.4% IF you use 8 Sturdy traits.
If you use 8 Sturdy traits you lose 3k Armor Resist from Re-Inforced and Nirnhoned that you could have used instead.

The increased Stamina/Magicka regain of the new Constitution will help ofc against one or two adds, but with more adds it becomes more challenging.

I think the raids in PTS will learn us where we really are.

Bashev

I am just wondering why the medium armor keep the roll doge passive even that there is a new trait for reduce roll dodge? I really dont get it ZoS. You try to buff heavy armor and you stated that you want to increase the survivability part of it and at the same time you nerf it even more.

hrothbern

Bashev wrote: »

I am just wondering why the medium armor keep the roll doge passive even that there is a new trait for reduce roll dodge? I really dont get it ZoS. You try to buff heavy armor and you stated that you want to increase the survivability part of it and at the same time you nerf it even more.

haha

That depends a bit which yardstick you use to define a buff or debuff

I think the devs use as yardstick the gain in Resources and Spell/Weapon Damage
and many players, but certainly not all (!), have another yardstick to measure HA.

NBrookus

Raw, unbuffed, non-combat numbers, on live versus PTS I gained about 1.4k phys and spell resist, or roughly 5%. Nothing game changing, but not insignificant either. Constitution tooltip is 930 for 5 pieces of heavy, all reinforced except a well-**itted helm; weapons defending, shields infused.

If block cost *hasn't* been increased, we're in an okay spot. If this is an oversight or bug, what happens in combat could be a different story.

Sugaroverdose

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?

Strictly false.

I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.

I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.

Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.

This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.

Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.

At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s

I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.


Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.


The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)


These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.

I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.

DDuke

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?

Strictly false.

I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.

I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.

Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.

This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.

Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.

At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s

I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.


Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.


The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)


These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.

I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.

I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.

Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility

Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^


Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work

Sugaroverdose

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?

Strictly false.

I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.

I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.

Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.

This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.

Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.

At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s

I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.


Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.


The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)


These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.

I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.

I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.

Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility

Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^


Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work

I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.

EnOeZ

Cinbri wrote: »

With this change i don't see a single reason to wear heavy armor in PvP:
1. You can craft full light armor with block trait.
2. In 7 light armor you will have perfect magicka sustain thx to passives so you can enchant more reduce block glyphs.
3. In 7 light you will have +10% spellcrit and constant spell penetration that not reqire you to be a hitted dummy.
4. In 7 light with revamped LA shield you will get very strong Dampen Magicka morph that will protect against all types of attacks.
5. You can craft 7 LA of Armor Master set and activating Dampen Magicka won't just give you strong damage shield but also increase your HP and proc 5pc bonus - in 7 light you will have same numbers of armor as in HA.

---

Overall in LA armor you will have more sustain, more survivability, more dps, equal armor rate.

I was going to point that out.
Thank you for having done it for me.

Weesacs

EnOeZ wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

With this change i don't see a single reason to wear heavy armor in PvP:
1. You can craft full light armor with block trait.
2. In 7 light armor you will have perfect magicka sustain thx to passives so you can enchant more reduce block glyphs.
3. In 7 light you will have +10% spellcrit and constant spell penetration that not reqire you to be a hitted dummy.
4. In 7 light with revamped LA shield you will get very strong Dampen Magicka morph that will protect against all types of attacks.
5. You can craft 7 LA of Armor Master set and activating Dampen Magicka won't just give you strong damage shield but also increase your HP and proc 5pc bonus - in 7 light you will have same numbers of armor as in HA.

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Overall in LA armor you will have more sustain, more survivability, more dps, equal armor rate.

I was going to point that out.
Thank you for having done it for me.

Its on the PTS - the release is still being tested ... hopefully after our feedback they see their mistake and put Bracing back in - however im not holding my breath.

Sugaroverdose

Cinbri wrote: »

With this change i don't see a single reason to wear heavy armor in PvP:
1. You can craft full light armor with block trait.
2. In 7 light armor you will have perfect magicka sustain thx to passives so you can enchant more reduce block glyphs.
3. In 7 light you will have +10% spellcrit and constant spell penetration that not reqire you to be a hitted dummy.
4. In 7 light with revamped LA shield you will get very strong Dampen Magicka morph that will protect against all types of attacks.
5. You can craft 7 LA of Armor Master set and activating Dampen Magicka won't just give you strong damage shield but also increase your HP and proc 5pc bonus - in 7 light you will have same numbers of armor as in HA.

---

Overall in LA armor you will have more sustain, more survivability, more dps, equal armor rate.

Awesome guide

hrothbern

Cinbri wrote: »

With this change i don't see a single reason to wear heavy armor in PvP:
1. You can craft full light armor with block trait.
2. In 7 light armor you will have perfect magicka sustain thx to passives so you can enchant more reduce block glyphs.
3. In 7 light you will have +10% spellcrit and constant spell penetration that not reqire you to be a hitted dummy.
4. In 7 light with revamped LA shield you will get very strong Dampen Magicka morph that will protect against all types of attacks.
5. You can craft 7 LA of Armor Master set and activating Dampen Magicka won't just give you strong damage shield but also increase your HP and proc 5pc bonus - in 7 light you will have same numbers of armor as in HA.

---

Overall in LA armor you will have more sustain, more survivability, more dps, equal armor rate.

+1

We will see quite a lot of people using the changes, also caused by the HA change, to build superior tanky LA builds for PVP.