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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Restore Bracing - Never Ask for Buffs
-
I wasn't unable to find a change in the block cost on the PTS. The base cost is still 2160. I included a video because the finding left me feeling incredulous
http://sendvid.com/9udfyii5
The block cost formula on the PTS appears to be
There is some rounding to 3 significant figures going on with the base cost of 2160, the Sturdy part and the Block Expertise so errors of up to 30 stamina is not uncommon. As an example of how to use the formula, I have 7 pieces of Legendary Sturdy gear (21%), 100 points in Block Expertise (25%), 3 block cost reduction glyphs (epic quality, 191 each, 573 total) and Skills is 38% due to Fortress (30%) and Defensive Posture (8%)
The in-game block cost is 470.
Wearing 7 pieces of heavy armour, Constitution returns 1302 Health/Stamina/Magicka every time you're hit with an ICD of 4 seconds. At your rate of one attack every 1.5 seconds, @Personofsecrets, it will be possible to permablock (and gain a marginal amount of stamina) with 7 the above setup.
If you are only being hit once every 1.5 seconds that means you are tanking wrong usually, I agree if you only have to hold aggro with 1 enemy the changes actually benefit tanks. Tanks should be holding as much aggro as possible though, and especially looking at vMoL, the tank will be hit a lot more then once every 1.5 seconds. Considering that block costs increase by about 100, for each enemy above 2, tank lose an extra 100 stamina per second based on the new patch.2 -
Oompuh✭✭✭✭✭Agreed, bracing needs to be restored. Blocking costing 20% more and having a little damage now doesn't interest me. There was no reason to remove thatXbox NA - Oompa
Khajiit DK Tank
Founder of Major Aegis
Main Tank of Dissonant Crusade Uprising Savages6 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.Sugaroverdose wrote: »it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?
Strictly false.
I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.
I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.
This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.
Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.
At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s
I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.
Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.
The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)
These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.
I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.
Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility
Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^
Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work
Well, you are doing something wrong then. I've dueled the best sorcs & the best nightblades in EU and none of them have given me much trouble. In fact, magicka NBs are probably the easiest of all to beat when they dont have enough burst to instagib you.
Of course, against the 20k shield sorcs it usually devolves into a 30min long potion drain that ends up with one getting bored.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I think I've demonstrated with the video that you can tank without taping down the RMB (and this particular templar build is just getting stronger next patch) if you build your character correctly.
Another point I'd like to raise is the changes to rev bash & wrecking blow, greatly reducing the amount of CC in Cyrodiil. You can now more easily use channeled spells without getting interrupted by one of those every 5 seconds.
I think people are over-reacting instead of adapting.
Reminds me of the "tanking is dead" threads when they removed stamina regen while blocking...Edited by DDuke on April 26, 2016 5:08PM0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
If i still will play this game, i definitely will run magicka build in light or medium armor, heavy becomes complete POS with this update.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.Sugaroverdose wrote: »it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?
Strictly false.
I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.
I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.
This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.
Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.
At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s
I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.
Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.
The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)
These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.
I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.
Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility
Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^
Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work
Well, you are doing something wrong then. I've dueled the best sorcs & the best nightblades in EU and none of them have given me much trouble. In fact, magicka NBs are probably the easiest of all to beat when they dont have enough burst to instagib you.
Of course, against the 20k shield sorcs it usually devolves into a 30min long potion drain that ends up with one getting bored.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I think I've demonstrated with the video that you can tank without taping down the RMB (and this particular templar build is just getting stronger next patch) if you build your character correctly.
Another point I'd like to raise is the changes to rev bash & wrecking blow, greatly reducing the amount of CC in Cyrodiil. You can now more easily use channeled spells without getting interrupted by one of those every 5 seconds.
I think people are over-reacting instead of adapting.
Reminds me of the "tanking is dead" threads when they removed stamina regen while blocking...
2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
If i still will play this game, i definitely will run magicka build in light or medium armor, heavy becomes complete POS with this update.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.Sugaroverdose wrote: »it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?
Strictly false.
I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.
I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.
This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.
Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.
At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s
I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.
Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.
The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)
These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.
I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.
Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility
Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^
Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work
Well, you are doing something wrong then. I've dueled the best sorcs & the best nightblades in EU and none of them have given me much trouble. In fact, magicka NBs are probably the easiest of all to beat when they dont have enough burst to instagib you.
Of course, against the 20k shield sorcs it usually devolves into a 30min long potion drain that ends up with one getting bored.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I think I've demonstrated with the video that you can tank without taping down the RMB (and this particular templar build is just getting stronger next patch) if you build your character correctly.
Another point I'd like to raise is the changes to rev bash & wrecking blow, greatly reducing the amount of CC in Cyrodiil. You can now more easily use channeled spells without getting interrupted by one of those every 5 seconds.
I think people are over-reacting instead of adapting.
Reminds me of the "tanking is dead" threads when they removed stamina regen while blocking...
Heavy armor gives you more damage vs people using damage shields than light armor after this patch (thanks to the passive replacing Bracing). It also gives you around 18-20% more mitigation (without having to use Armor Master & sacrifice dps). Heavy also gives you more health & healing received.
The only thing you really lose compared to light armor is sustain & crit chance. As far as sustain goes, you don't need that at all when you have Channeled Focus & Honor the Dead as magicka templar. NBs have Siphoning Attacks & DKs have their passives... And the crit chance isn't that important when half the time you're hitting a dmg shield.
So I'll have to disagree with that notion as well :P1 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
We are reading different patch notes?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
If i still will play this game, i definitely will run magicka build in light or medium armor, heavy becomes complete POS with this update.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.Sugaroverdose wrote: »it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?
Strictly false.
I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.
I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.
This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.
Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.
At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s
I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.
Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.
The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)
These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.
I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.
Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility
Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^
Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work
Well, you are doing something wrong then. I've dueled the best sorcs & the best nightblades in EU and none of them have given me much trouble. In fact, magicka NBs are probably the easiest of all to beat when they dont have enough burst to instagib you.
Of course, against the 20k shield sorcs it usually devolves into a 30min long potion drain that ends up with one getting bored.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I think I've demonstrated with the video that you can tank without taping down the RMB (and this particular templar build is just getting stronger next patch) if you build your character correctly.
Another point I'd like to raise is the changes to rev bash & wrecking blow, greatly reducing the amount of CC in Cyrodiil. You can now more easily use channeled spells without getting interrupted by one of those every 5 seconds.
I think people are over-reacting instead of adapting.
Reminds me of the "tanking is dead" threads when they removed stamina regen while blocking...
Heavy armor gives you more damage vs people using damage shields than light armor after this patch (thanks to the passive replacing Bracing). It also gives you around 18-20% more mitigation (without having to use Armor Master & sacrifice dps). Heavy also gives you more health & healing received.
The only thing you really lose compared to light armor is sustain & crit chance. As far as sustain goes, you don't need that at all when you have Channeled Focus & Honor the Dead as magicka templar. NBs have Siphoning Attacks & DKs have their passives... And the crit chance isn't that important when half the time you're hitting a dmg shield.
So I'll have to disagree with that notion as well :PZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Heavy Armor- Bracing:
- Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
- Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
- Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.
- Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.
- Rapid Mending:
- This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.
- Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%
- This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.
3 - Bracing:
-
Weesacs✭✭✭✭✭Heavy armor gives you more damage vs people using damage shields than light armor after this patch (thanks to the passive replacing Bracing). It also gives you around 18-20% more mitigation (without having to use Armor Master & sacrifice dps). Heavy also gives you more health & healing received.
The only thing you really lose compared to light armor is sustain & crit chance. As far as sustain goes, you don't need that at all when you have Channeled Focus & Honor the Dead as magicka templar. NBs have Siphoning Attacks & DKs have their passives... And the crit chance isn't that important when half the time you're hitting a dmg shield.
So I'll have to disagree with that notion as well :P
See here's the thing mate ... Im a tank, I dont give a sh*t about DPS ... kudos to the heavy armour folk that want to DPS ... but what about the true tanks?
Also, as a PvP tank, I will need to remove some of my impenetrable traits and replace them with sturdy to replace what I have lost ... basically gimping me in PvP.
The change sucks for true tanks and there is no way of getting away from that fact.Breton Templar
PS5 - EU - DC10 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
We are reading different patch notes?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
If i still will play this game, i definitely will run magicka build in light or medium armor, heavy becomes complete POS with this update.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.Sugaroverdose wrote: »it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?
Strictly false.
I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.
I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.
This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.
Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.
At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s
I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.
Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.
The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)
These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.
I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.
Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility
Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^
Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work
Well, you are doing something wrong then. I've dueled the best sorcs & the best nightblades in EU and none of them have given me much trouble. In fact, magicka NBs are probably the easiest of all to beat when they dont have enough burst to instagib you.
Of course, against the 20k shield sorcs it usually devolves into a 30min long potion drain that ends up with one getting bored.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I think I've demonstrated with the video that you can tank without taping down the RMB (and this particular templar build is just getting stronger next patch) if you build your character correctly.
Another point I'd like to raise is the changes to rev bash & wrecking blow, greatly reducing the amount of CC in Cyrodiil. You can now more easily use channeled spells without getting interrupted by one of those every 5 seconds.
I think people are over-reacting instead of adapting.
Reminds me of the "tanking is dead" threads when they removed stamina regen while blocking...
Heavy armor gives you more damage vs people using damage shields than light armor after this patch (thanks to the passive replacing Bracing). It also gives you around 18-20% more mitigation (without having to use Armor Master & sacrifice dps). Heavy also gives you more health & healing received.
The only thing you really lose compared to light armor is sustain & crit chance. As far as sustain goes, you don't need that at all when you have Channeled Focus & Honor the Dead as magicka templar. NBs have Siphoning Attacks & DKs have their passives... And the crit chance isn't that important when half the time you're hitting a dmg shield.
So I'll have to disagree with that notion as well :PZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Heavy Armor- Bracing:
- Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
- Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
- Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.
- Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.
- Rapid Mending:
- This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.
- Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%
- This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.
Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
More spell damage=more damage on dmg shields
At the moment, light armour & heavy armour are even when it comes to dmg output on people with dmg shield up (since penetration is useless vs shields that have 0 mitigation already).
So after patch, heavy armor is better vs them 1 - Bracing:
-
Heavy armor is in no way better then light or medium from the dps standpoint. You can not base every change only on how it changes pvp. Tanks, especially good tanks, are already in short supply, now they are going to make tanks think they can dps with heavy armor, this will not help pve and hurt group content. If they really think that it is necessary to add wrath, don't do it by nerfing tanks.5
-
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Any high damage instant cast skill is better vs damage shields than 200 spell power which increase damage of your puncturing sweeps for around 100dmg, but who cares, you already dead because you suddenly pressed block and loosed all stamina instantlySugaroverdose wrote: »
We are reading different patch notes?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
If i still will play this game, i definitely will run magicka build in light or medium armor, heavy becomes complete POS with this update.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.Sugaroverdose wrote: »it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?
Strictly false.
I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.
I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.
This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.
Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.
At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s
I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.
Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.
The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)
These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.
I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.
Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility
Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^
Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work
Well, you are doing something wrong then. I've dueled the best sorcs & the best nightblades in EU and none of them have given me much trouble. In fact, magicka NBs are probably the easiest of all to beat when they dont have enough burst to instagib you.
Of course, against the 20k shield sorcs it usually devolves into a 30min long potion drain that ends up with one getting bored.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I think I've demonstrated with the video that you can tank without taping down the RMB (and this particular templar build is just getting stronger next patch) if you build your character correctly.
Another point I'd like to raise is the changes to rev bash & wrecking blow, greatly reducing the amount of CC in Cyrodiil. You can now more easily use channeled spells without getting interrupted by one of those every 5 seconds.
I think people are over-reacting instead of adapting.
Reminds me of the "tanking is dead" threads when they removed stamina regen while blocking...
Heavy armor gives you more damage vs people using damage shields than light armor after this patch (thanks to the passive replacing Bracing). It also gives you around 18-20% more mitigation (without having to use Armor Master & sacrifice dps). Heavy also gives you more health & healing received.
The only thing you really lose compared to light armor is sustain & crit chance. As far as sustain goes, you don't need that at all when you have Channeled Focus & Honor the Dead as magicka templar. NBs have Siphoning Attacks & DKs have their passives... And the crit chance isn't that important when half the time you're hitting a dmg shield.
So I'll have to disagree with that notion as well :PZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Heavy Armor- Bracing:
- Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
- Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
- Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.
- Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.
- Rapid Mending:
- This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.
- Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%
- This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.
Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
More spell damage=more damage on dmg shields
At the moment, light armour & heavy armour are even when it comes to dmg output on people with dmg shield up (since penetration is useless vs shields that have 0 mitigation already).
So after patch, heavy armor is better vs them
2 - Bracing:
-
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SirSilverMask wrote: »Heavy armor is in no way better then light or medium from the dps standpoint. You can not base every change only on how it changes pvp. Tanks, especially good tanks, are already in short supply, now they are going to make tanks think they can dps with heavy armor, this will not help pve and hurt group content. If they really think that it is necessary to add wrath, don't do it by nerfing tanks.
Well, I wasnt talking about PvE. In PvE, you have almost zero dmg shields on targets so getting extra spell penetration from light armor is always better for DPS.
That said, you can actually DPS as a tank wearing heavy armor. You don't need to hold RMB 24/7 (I use sweeps 90% of time & block only heavy attacks that can one shot or CC). If you only hold block as a tank, you're detrimental to the group (granted, worse is if you don't hold block & manage to die for some reason).0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Any high damage instant cast skill is better vs damage shields than 200 spell power which increase damage of your puncturing sweeps for around 100dmg, but who cares, you already dead because you suddenly pressed block and loosed all stamina instantlySugaroverdose wrote: »
We are reading different patch notes?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
If i still will play this game, i definitely will run magicka build in light or medium armor, heavy becomes complete POS with this update.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.Sugaroverdose wrote: »it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?
Strictly false.
I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.
I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.
This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.
Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.
At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s
I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.
Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.
The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)
These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.
I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.
Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility
Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^
Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work
Well, you are doing something wrong then. I've dueled the best sorcs & the best nightblades in EU and none of them have given me much trouble. In fact, magicka NBs are probably the easiest of all to beat when they dont have enough burst to instagib you.
Of course, against the 20k shield sorcs it usually devolves into a 30min long potion drain that ends up with one getting bored.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I think I've demonstrated with the video that you can tank without taping down the RMB (and this particular templar build is just getting stronger next patch) if you build your character correctly.
Another point I'd like to raise is the changes to rev bash & wrecking blow, greatly reducing the amount of CC in Cyrodiil. You can now more easily use channeled spells without getting interrupted by one of those every 5 seconds.
I think people are over-reacting instead of adapting.
Reminds me of the "tanking is dead" threads when they removed stamina regen while blocking...
Heavy armor gives you more damage vs people using damage shields than light armor after this patch (thanks to the passive replacing Bracing). It also gives you around 18-20% more mitigation (without having to use Armor Master & sacrifice dps). Heavy also gives you more health & healing received.
The only thing you really lose compared to light armor is sustain & crit chance. As far as sustain goes, you don't need that at all when you have Channeled Focus & Honor the Dead as magicka templar. NBs have Siphoning Attacks & DKs have their passives... And the crit chance isn't that important when half the time you're hitting a dmg shield.
So I'll have to disagree with that notion as well :PZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Heavy Armor- Bracing:
- Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
- Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
- Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.
- Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.
- Rapid Mending:
- This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.
- Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%
- This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.
Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
More spell damage=more damage on dmg shields
At the moment, light armour & heavy armour are even when it comes to dmg output on people with dmg shield up (since penetration is useless vs shields that have 0 mitigation already).
So after patch, heavy armor is better vs them
That makes no sense.
Why wouldn't you be able to use instant cast high damage skills with heavy amor?
Also, 200 spell dmg is actually 250 with buffs & gives you between 4-5% more damage, which is quite a lot when you put things into perspective (light armor gives you 12% via penetration, but only on targets without dmg shield).0 - Bracing:
-
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭With this change i don't see a single reason to wear heavy armor in PvP:
1. You can craft full light armor with block trait.
2. In 7 light armor you will have perfect magicka sustain thx to passives so you can enchant more reduce block glyphs.
3. In 7 light you will have +10% spellcrit and constant spell penetration that not reqire you to be a hitted dummy.
4. In 7 light with revamped LA shield you will get very strong Dampen Magicka morph that will protect against all types of attacks.
5. You can craft 7 LA of Armor Master set and activating Dampen Magicka won't just give you strong damage shield but also increase your HP and proc 5pc bonus - in 7 light you will have same numbers of armor as in HA.
Overall in LA armor you will have more sustain, more survivability, more dps, equal armor rate.
I considered this as well, but heavy armor isn't obsolete in pvp simply because of the changes to the Sturdy trait. Not only did they increase the damage potential of S&B users substantially but it also synergizes very nicely with the new passive, which scales damage after blocking, and is stackable. The #1 reason for wearing heavy armor now (and how it has been for several months now) is for pure physical and spell resistances. These can be achieved without using heavy armor, true, but would require dedicating an entire 5set to something like Armor Master. It's viable and it will be done, no doubt. But this does not make heavy armor in pvp obsolete. The most effective means of mitigation in this game is block, and the simple truth about cyrodiil is that there are so many ways to stop you from blocking. What do you do when you are CC'd? You rely on armor and spell resist.
The potential for reduced block cost from the Sturdy trait surpasses what we could do with the Resolve passive previously. I anticipate the new meta hovering somewhere in the ballpark of replacing minor piece traits with sturdy, but continuing to used infused + prismatic combos on large pieces.
When we look at the changes on a larger scale, rather than just focusing narrowly on the replacement of the passive exclusively, we actually have many signs of potentially far greater build diversity and the viability of tanking. They certainly have made it easier for light armor builds (referring specifically to dps and healers, not off-tanks) to replace tanks in vet dungeons, moreso than is already present. However, they also made it easier for tanks to diverge into a quazi-damage spec without actually giving up the more pertinent aspects of their "tanking" setup. Additionally, we now have several good reasons to not focus solely on magicka tanking, which has been far superior to stamina tanking for months. It's good to see that balance.Edited by Autolycus on April 26, 2016 5:36PM1 -
SirSilverMask wrote: »Heavy armor is in no way better then light or medium from the dps standpoint. You can not base every change only on how it changes pvp. Tanks, especially good tanks, are already in short supply, now they are going to make tanks think they can dps with heavy armor, this will not help pve and hurt group content. If they really think that it is necessary to add wrath, don't do it by nerfing tanks.
Well, I wasnt talking about PvE. In PvE, you have almost zero dmg shields on targets so getting extra spell penetration from light armor is always better for DPS.
That said, you can actually DPS as a tank wearing heavy armor. You don't need to hold RMB 24/7 (I use sweeps 90% of time & block only heavy attacks that can one shot or CC). If you only hold block as a tank, you're detrimental to the group (granted, worse is if you don't hold block & manage to die for some reason).
I know you were talking about pvp, and your initial insight is quite accurate regarding heavy armor. Most good groups now, and especially with the nerfs to dungeons don't require a tank, so I am basing the nerf to tanking on the dungeon which most requires a tank IMO vMoL where it is necessary to hold aggro from multiple enemies that hit hard enough to one shot group members and blocking needs to be weaved in with all attacks. The increase in damage is a joke especially in a 12 man trial group while the nerf to blocking actually changes the dynamics and hurts overall group survivability.4 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
What reason to use heavy armor if it will give you ~10% mitigation vs non-pve peps who have a lot of penetration and gives you sh*tty 200 spelldmg which you need to stack by getting damage?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Any high damage instant cast skill is better vs damage shields than 200 spell power which increase damage of your puncturing sweeps for around 100dmg, but who cares, you already dead because you suddenly pressed block and loosed all stamina instantlySugaroverdose wrote: »
We are reading different patch notes?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
If i still will play this game, i definitely will run magicka build in light or medium armor, heavy becomes complete POS with this update.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.Sugaroverdose wrote: »it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?
Strictly false.
I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.
I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.
This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.
Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.
At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s
I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.
Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.
The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)
These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.
I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.
Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility
Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^
Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work
Well, you are doing something wrong then. I've dueled the best sorcs & the best nightblades in EU and none of them have given me much trouble. In fact, magicka NBs are probably the easiest of all to beat when they dont have enough burst to instagib you.
Of course, against the 20k shield sorcs it usually devolves into a 30min long potion drain that ends up with one getting bored.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I think I've demonstrated with the video that you can tank without taping down the RMB (and this particular templar build is just getting stronger next patch) if you build your character correctly.
Another point I'd like to raise is the changes to rev bash & wrecking blow, greatly reducing the amount of CC in Cyrodiil. You can now more easily use channeled spells without getting interrupted by one of those every 5 seconds.
I think people are over-reacting instead of adapting.
Reminds me of the "tanking is dead" threads when they removed stamina regen while blocking...
Heavy armor gives you more damage vs people using damage shields than light armor after this patch (thanks to the passive replacing Bracing). It also gives you around 18-20% more mitigation (without having to use Armor Master & sacrifice dps). Heavy also gives you more health & healing received.
The only thing you really lose compared to light armor is sustain & crit chance. As far as sustain goes, you don't need that at all when you have Channeled Focus & Honor the Dead as magicka templar. NBs have Siphoning Attacks & DKs have their passives... And the crit chance isn't that important when half the time you're hitting a dmg shield.
So I'll have to disagree with that notion as well :PZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Heavy Armor- Bracing:
- Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
- Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
- Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.
- Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.
- Rapid Mending:
- This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.
- Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%
- This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.
Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
More spell damage=more damage on dmg shields
At the moment, light armour & heavy armour are even when it comes to dmg output on people with dmg shield up (since penetration is useless vs shields that have 0 mitigation already).
So after patch, heavy armor is better vs them
That makes no sense.
Why wouldn't you be able to use instant cast high damage skills with heavy amor?
Also, 200 spell dmg is actually 250 with buffs & gives you between 4-5% more damage, which is quite a lot when you put things into perspective (light armor gives you 12% via penetration, but only on targets without dmg shield).
Light armor+damp magic gives more damage mitigation, add block cost reduction and you have a tank which have much more spell penetration (which is better than plain damage almost 100% of time) gives you 10% critical rate so you can stack it to get more heal and dps.Edited by Sugaroverdose on April 26, 2016 5:39PM0 - Bracing:
-
Weesacs✭✭✭✭✭With this change i don't see a single reason to wear heavy armor in PvP:
1. You can craft full light armor with block trait.
2. In 7 light armor you will have perfect magicka sustain thx to passives so you can enchant more reduce block glyphs.
3. In 7 light you will have +10% spellcrit and constant spell penetration that not reqire you to be a hitted dummy.
4. In 7 light with revamped LA shield you will get very strong Dampen Magicka morph that will protect against all types of attacks.
5. You can craft 7 LA of Armor Master set and activating Dampen Magicka won't just give you strong damage shield but also increase your HP and proc 5pc bonus - in 7 light you will have same numbers of armor as in HA.
Overall in LA armor you will have more sustain, more survivability, more dps, equal armor rate.
I considered this as well, but heavy armor isn't obsolete in pvp simply because of the changes to the Sturdy trait. Not only did they increase the damage potential of S&B users substantially but it also synergizes very nicely with the new passive, which scales damage after blocking, and is stackable. The #1 reason for wearing heavy armor now (and how it has been for several months now) is for pure physical and spell resistances. These can be achieved without using heavy armor, true, but would require dedicating an entire 5set to something like Armor Master. It's viable and it will be done, no doubt. But this does not make heavy armor in pvp obsolete. The most effective means of mitigation in this game is block, and the simple truth about cyrodiil is that there are so many ways to stop you from blocking. What do you do when you are CC'd? You rely on armor and spell resist.
The potential for reduced block cost from the Sturdy trait surpasses what we could do with the Resolve passive previously. I anticipate the new meta hovering somewhere in the ballpark of replacing minor piece traits with sturdy, but continuing to used infused + prismatic combos on large pieces.
When we look at the changes on a larger scale, rather than just focusing narrowly on the replacement of the passive exclusively, we actually have many signs of potentially far greater build diversity and the viability of tanking. They certainly have made it easier for light armor builds (referring specifically to dps and healers, not off-tanks) to replace tanks in vet dungeons, moreso than is already present. However, they also made it easier for tanks to diverge into a quazi-damage spec without actually giving up the more pertinent aspects of their "tanking" setup. Additionally, we now have several good reasons to not focus solely on magicka tanking, which has been far superior to stamina tanking for months. It's good to see that balance.
Yes, but I also rely on impenetrable on my heavy armour to reduce the damage caused during the time im CC'd. If im having to replace my impenetrable traits with sturdy traits then for that duration im CC'd then im taking more damage from crits ... I dont want to have to replace my impenetrable traits (which are very much essential in PvP) with sturdy traits.Breton Templar
PS5 - EU - DC1 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭With this change i don't see a single reason to wear heavy armor in PvP:
1. You can craft full light armor with block trait.
2. In 7 light armor you will have perfect magicka sustain thx to passives so you can enchant more reduce block glyphs.
3. In 7 light you will have +10% spellcrit and constant spell penetration that not reqire you to be a hitted dummy.
4. In 7 light with revamped LA shield you will get very strong Dampen Magicka morph that will protect against all types of attacks.
5. You can craft 7 LA of Armor Master set and activating Dampen Magicka won't just give you strong damage shield but also increase your HP and proc 5pc bonus - in 7 light you will have same numbers of armor as in HA.
Overall in LA armor you will have more sustain, more survivability, more dps, equal armor rate.
I considered this as well, but heavy armor isn't obsolete in pvp simply because of the changes to the Sturdy trait. Not only did they increase the damage potential of S&B users substantially but it also synergizes very nicely with the new passive, which scales damage after blocking, and is stackable. The #1 reason for wearing heavy armor now (and how it has been for several months now) is for pure physical and spell resistances. These can be achieved without using heavy armor, true, but would require dedicating an entire 5set to something like Armor Master. It's viable and it will be done, no doubt. But this does not make heavy armor in pvp obsolete. The most effective means of mitigation in this game is block, and the simple truth about cyrodiil is that there are so many ways to stop you from blocking. What do you do when you are CC'd? You rely on armor and spell resist.
The potential for reduced block cost from the Sturdy trait surpasses what we could do with the Resolve passive previously. I anticipate the new meta hovering somewhere in the ballpark of replacing minor piece traits with sturdy, but continuing to used infused + prismatic combos on large pieces.
When we look at the changes on a larger scale, rather than just focusing narrowly on the replacement of the passive exclusively, we actually have many signs of potentially far greater build diversity and the viability of tanking. They certainly have made it easier for light armor builds (referring specifically to dps and healers, not off-tanks) to replace tanks in vet dungeons, moreso than is already present. However, they also made it easier for tanks to diverge into a quazi-damage spec without actually giving up the more pertinent aspects of their "tanking" setup. Additionally, we now have several good reasons to not focus solely on magicka tanking, which has been far superior to stamina tanking for months. It's good to see that balance.
Yes, but I also rely on impenetrable on my heavy armour to reduce the damage caused during the time im CC'd. If im having to replace my impenetrable traits with sturdy traits then for that duration im CC'd then im taking more damage from crits ... I dont want to have to replace my impenetrable traits (which are very much essential in PvP) with sturdy traits.
Yes, of course I agree completely on this point. I was speaking mostly to the pve tanking aspect. As for pvp, it really comes down to class and playstyle. There are maths involved, but it's not going to be the same for a NB vs. Temp vs. DK vs. Sorc. Take me for example, in my cyro tanking setup I have ~900 recovery and ~17k stam, but I almost never run out of resources. There are tanks that have ~25k stamina on the same class, similar bar setups, higher recovery, and still have far worse difficulties with stamina management, namely because I'm really good at LA weaving between blocks (NB sap tank).
What I'm getting at is that we are now seeing a wider variety of viable tanking styles, a wider variety of solutions for a wider variety of problems. But they are good problems to have. Having to choose between impen and sturdy is not necessarily a bad thing. I can make the argument for both sides too; it's not like I'm overjoyed at the concept of losing Bracing. I'm just trying to look at it from the big picture, and when I do, I see a lot more opportunities for tanking to take root again.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SirSilverMask wrote: »SirSilverMask wrote: »Heavy armor is in no way better then light or medium from the dps standpoint. You can not base every change only on how it changes pvp. Tanks, especially good tanks, are already in short supply, now they are going to make tanks think they can dps with heavy armor, this will not help pve and hurt group content. If they really think that it is necessary to add wrath, don't do it by nerfing tanks.
Well, I wasnt talking about PvE. In PvE, you have almost zero dmg shields on targets so getting extra spell penetration from light armor is always better for DPS.
That said, you can actually DPS as a tank wearing heavy armor. You don't need to hold RMB 24/7 (I use sweeps 90% of time & block only heavy attacks that can one shot or CC). If you only hold block as a tank, you're detrimental to the group (granted, worse is if you don't hold block & manage to die for some reason).
I know you were talking about pvp, and your initial insight is quite accurate regarding heavy armor. Most good groups now, and especially with the nerfs to dungeons don't require a tank, so I am basing the nerf to tanking on the dungeon which most requires a tank IMO vMoL where it is necessary to hold aggro from multiple enemies that hit hard enough to one shot group members and blocking needs to be weaved in with all attacks. The increase in damage is a joke especially in a 12 man trial group while the nerf to blocking actually changes the dynamics and hurts overall group survivability.
Yeah, I see. Ok, from trials perspective it's a nerf I can agree with that.
It's one of those things you'll have to play & see how it works out in practice. I remember people going wild & claiming tanking was dead when they removed stamina regen while blocking. How it'd be impossible to even complete AA hardmode after that.
We all know how that turned outSugaroverdose wrote: »
What reason to use heavy armor if it will give you ~10% mitigation vs non-pve peps who have a lot of penetration and gives you sh*tty 200 spelldmg which you need to stack by getting damage?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Any high damage instant cast skill is better vs damage shields than 200 spell power which increase damage of your puncturing sweeps for around 100dmg, but who cares, you already dead because you suddenly pressed block and loosed all stamina instantlySugaroverdose wrote: »
We are reading different patch notes?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
If i still will play this game, i definitely will run magicka build in light or medium armor, heavy becomes complete POS with this update.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.Sugaroverdose wrote: »it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?
Strictly false.
I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.
I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.
This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.
Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.
At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s
I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.
Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.
The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)
These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.
I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.
Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility
Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^
Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work
Well, you are doing something wrong then. I've dueled the best sorcs & the best nightblades in EU and none of them have given me much trouble. In fact, magicka NBs are probably the easiest of all to beat when they dont have enough burst to instagib you.
Of course, against the 20k shield sorcs it usually devolves into a 30min long potion drain that ends up with one getting bored.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I think I've demonstrated with the video that you can tank without taping down the RMB (and this particular templar build is just getting stronger next patch) if you build your character correctly.
Another point I'd like to raise is the changes to rev bash & wrecking blow, greatly reducing the amount of CC in Cyrodiil. You can now more easily use channeled spells without getting interrupted by one of those every 5 seconds.
I think people are over-reacting instead of adapting.
Reminds me of the "tanking is dead" threads when they removed stamina regen while blocking...
Heavy armor gives you more damage vs people using damage shields than light armor after this patch (thanks to the passive replacing Bracing). It also gives you around 18-20% more mitigation (without having to use Armor Master & sacrifice dps). Heavy also gives you more health & healing received.
The only thing you really lose compared to light armor is sustain & crit chance. As far as sustain goes, you don't need that at all when you have Channeled Focus & Honor the Dead as magicka templar. NBs have Siphoning Attacks & DKs have their passives... And the crit chance isn't that important when half the time you're hitting a dmg shield.
So I'll have to disagree with that notion as well :PZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Heavy Armor- Bracing:
- Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
- Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
- Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.
- Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.
- Rapid Mending:
- This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.
- Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%
- This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.
Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
More spell damage=more damage on dmg shields
At the moment, light armour & heavy armour are even when it comes to dmg output on people with dmg shield up (since penetration is useless vs shields that have 0 mitigation already).
So after patch, heavy armor is better vs them
That makes no sense.
Why wouldn't you be able to use instant cast high damage skills with heavy amor?
Also, 200 spell dmg is actually 250 with buffs & gives you between 4-5% more damage, which is quite a lot when you put things into perspective (light armor gives you 12% via penetration, but only on targets without dmg shield).
Light armor+damp magic gives more damage mitigation, add block cost reduction and you have a tank which have much more spell penetration (which is better than plain damage almost 100% of time) gives you 10% critical rate so you can stack it to get more heal and dps.
Well, I guess it comes down to how you like to play. I prefer actually tanking the damage (not spamming some shield) & then healing back up with sweeps - and I can say it's quite effective (and only getting more effective) :P
All I'm saying is, you don't have to hold RMB as a tank.
But I must point out something about your proposed setup: it's really antisynergetic.
You want to use block cost reducing enchants, but at the same time your whole damage mitigation is based off of using a damage shield (during which your block does basicly nothing but drain resources).
Whatever floats your boat I guess 0 - Bracing:
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Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Block is a mitigation while:SirSilverMask wrote: »SirSilverMask wrote: »Heavy armor is in no way better then light or medium from the dps standpoint. You can not base every change only on how it changes pvp. Tanks, especially good tanks, are already in short supply, now they are going to make tanks think they can dps with heavy armor, this will not help pve and hurt group content. If they really think that it is necessary to add wrath, don't do it by nerfing tanks.
Well, I wasnt talking about PvE. In PvE, you have almost zero dmg shields on targets so getting extra spell penetration from light armor is always better for DPS.
That said, you can actually DPS as a tank wearing heavy armor. You don't need to hold RMB 24/7 (I use sweeps 90% of time & block only heavy attacks that can one shot or CC). If you only hold block as a tank, you're detrimental to the group (granted, worse is if you don't hold block & manage to die for some reason).
I know you were talking about pvp, and your initial insight is quite accurate regarding heavy armor. Most good groups now, and especially with the nerfs to dungeons don't require a tank, so I am basing the nerf to tanking on the dungeon which most requires a tank IMO vMoL where it is necessary to hold aggro from multiple enemies that hit hard enough to one shot group members and blocking needs to be weaved in with all attacks. The increase in damage is a joke especially in a 12 man trial group while the nerf to blocking actually changes the dynamics and hurts overall group survivability.
Yeah, I see. Ok, from trials perspective it's a nerf I can agree with that.
It's one of those things you'll have to play & see how it works out in practice. I remember people going wild & claiming tanking was dead when they removed stamina regen while blocking. How it'd be impossible to even complete AA hardmode after that.
We all know how that turned outSugaroverdose wrote: »
What reason to use heavy armor if it will give you ~10% mitigation vs non-pve peps who have a lot of penetration and gives you sh*tty 200 spelldmg which you need to stack by getting damage?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Any high damage instant cast skill is better vs damage shields than 200 spell power which increase damage of your puncturing sweeps for around 100dmg, but who cares, you already dead because you suddenly pressed block and loosed all stamina instantlySugaroverdose wrote: »
We are reading different patch notes?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
If i still will play this game, i definitely will run magicka build in light or medium armor, heavy becomes complete POS with this update.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I have 32k buffed, almost 40k spell resist with bloodspawn proc, and you know what? Sorcs and magblades still deal descent amount of damage, just because of spell penetration.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
I did spot only couple of player with at least one 'square' or higher grade in your 1vX's(and you get wiped there), are you sure, that your survivability is about heavy armor, witch does gives something like 20k resists in 7pieces and not about lack of CP on their side? I've seen multiple times that you get 4.3k WB crits which is a joke while you don't seems to have any critical resistance.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Sorry, but in this vid, you get kitten scratches from 2 people max while other stay around and trying to make visibility that they do something. Show vid when you get WB'ed from 3 v16 least colonels without blocking.Sugaroverdose wrote: »it's only me or people who talks "this is a cool buff" does not know that constitution have 4 seconds cooldown? And surviving 10 hits in pvp without block or roll dodge is real only if you're shieldstacker?
Strictly false.
I hate self advertising, but see my youtube video for a heavy armor magicka templar build that does just fine without holding block 24/7.
I'm 100% certain other classes are capable of similar builds.
This build can tank 5+ people for a long time, and if they dont have a decent healer it can kill them as well.
Of all the clips, the first clip in the video features two people only. I assume you didnt get past it.
At 16 minute mark of the video there's a clip I had to speed up 300% to fit in the video, that should demonstrate the tankiness it's capable of: https://youtu.be/iWEjA18SrFk?t=16m6s
I have other clips on my computer that I simply couldn't fit in the video because of how long they were.
Trust me, you can be extremely tanky without becoming a shield spamming sorc or permablocking.
The reason the damage might seem like "kitten scratches" to you is the main reason to run heavy armor: mitigation (and that's not going anywhere)
These are not just "youtube highlights" btw, but regular encounters that I ran to while recording. I don't play often enough to be selective about the clips I upload and I wouldn't be here telling how awesome heavy armor & tanking can be if I didn't truly believe that. There's no hidden agenda.
I have 33,6k spell resistance (50%++) & 26,1k physical resistance 39,4%) as well as 1869 critical resistance (28.3%) with 5 pieces of heavy armor & no outside buffs.
Basicly all damage is a joke at that point, and getting bursted down becomes pretty much an impossibility
Combine that with 3,7k spell damage boosting your healing & dmg and you're good to go ^^
Also, you can't really expect to go off against multiple good players & win (not with any build). That's not how youtube videos work
Well, you are doing something wrong then. I've dueled the best sorcs & the best nightblades in EU and none of them have given me much trouble. In fact, magicka NBs are probably the easiest of all to beat when they dont have enough burst to instagib you.
Of course, against the 20k shield sorcs it usually devolves into a 30min long potion drain that ends up with one getting bored.
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. I think I've demonstrated with the video that you can tank without taping down the RMB (and this particular templar build is just getting stronger next patch) if you build your character correctly.
Another point I'd like to raise is the changes to rev bash & wrecking blow, greatly reducing the amount of CC in Cyrodiil. You can now more easily use channeled spells without getting interrupted by one of those every 5 seconds.
I think people are over-reacting instead of adapting.
Reminds me of the "tanking is dead" threads when they removed stamina regen while blocking...
Heavy armor gives you more damage vs people using damage shields than light armor after this patch (thanks to the passive replacing Bracing). It also gives you around 18-20% more mitigation (without having to use Armor Master & sacrifice dps). Heavy also gives you more health & healing received.
The only thing you really lose compared to light armor is sustain & crit chance. As far as sustain goes, you don't need that at all when you have Channeled Focus & Honor the Dead as magicka templar. NBs have Siphoning Attacks & DKs have their passives... And the crit chance isn't that important when half the time you're hitting a dmg shield.
So I'll have to disagree with that notion as well :PZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Heavy Armor- Bracing:
- Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
- Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
- Constitution: Increased the amount of Magicka and Stamina restored from this passive ability whenever you are hit by approximately 275%.
- Juggernaut: Increased the amount of maximum health this passive grants per piece of Heavy Armor to 1/2% at Ranks I/II from 0.5/1%.
- Rapid Mending:
- This passive ability no longer increments its bonuses with each piece of Heavy Armor, and now requires 5 pieces or more of Heavy Armor to be worn.
- Increased the healing taken bonus to 4/8%
- This ability now increases the amount of resources your Heavy Attacks restore by 25/50% at Ranks I/II.
Renamed this passive ability to Wrath.
Redesigned this passive ability so it now increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 10/20 for 6 seconds after taking damage at Ranks I/II respectively, stacking up to 10 times.
More spell damage=more damage on dmg shields
At the moment, light armour & heavy armour are even when it comes to dmg output on people with dmg shield up (since penetration is useless vs shields that have 0 mitigation already).
So after patch, heavy armor is better vs them
That makes no sense.
Why wouldn't you be able to use instant cast high damage skills with heavy amor?
Also, 200 spell dmg is actually 250 with buffs & gives you between 4-5% more damage, which is quite a lot when you put things into perspective (light armor gives you 12% via penetration, but only on targets without dmg shield).
Light armor+damp magic gives more damage mitigation, add block cost reduction and you have a tank which have much more spell penetration (which is better than plain damage almost 100% of time) gives you 10% critical rate so you can stack it to get more heal and dps.
Well, I guess it comes down to how you like to play. I prefer actually tanking the damage (not spamming some shield) & then healing back up with sweeps - and I can say it's quite effective (and only getting more effective) :P
All I'm saying is, you don't have to hold RMB as a tank.
But I must point out something about your proposed setup: it's really antisynergetic.
You want to use block cost reducing enchants, but at the same time your whole damage mitigation is based off of using a damage shield (during which your block does basicly nothing but drain resources).
Whatever floats your boat I guess
1. You are at low health
2. Shield is broken and you don't want to be cc'ed while reapplying it
3. You do know that next couple of attacks will deal monster damage or even install you if you will not block them
4. Forget this: you are outnumbered by 5+ not PVE players and don't want to dieEdited by Sugaroverdose on April 26, 2016 6:12PM0 - Bracing:
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RobbaYaga✭✭All of this should be irrelevant to me, since I am a Sorcerer Magicka Tank. Yet, with the new change to Hardened Ward, I don't think my build will be viable and so yeah, changing Bracing is not a good choice. Tanks are generally one of the hardest group members to find and now they'll be less plentiful.
I do like the change to Guard .............Edited by RobbaYaga on April 26, 2016 6:48PMDragon kings, dying queens; where is salvation now?0 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
In AoE situations, you have a lot of group buffs to the point you'll never run out of Stamina, repentance, siphon spirit, spear shards.. so using mol i'd say you should be fine with all those buffs, our tanks never run out of staminaSirSilverMask wrote: »I wasn't unable to find a change in the block cost on the PTS. The base cost is still 2160. I included a video because the finding left me feeling incredulous
http://sendvid.com/9udfyii5
The block cost formula on the PTS appears to be
There is some rounding to 3 significant figures going on with the base cost of 2160, the Sturdy part and the Block Expertise so errors of up to 30 stamina is not uncommon. As an example of how to use the formula, I have 7 pieces of Legendary Sturdy gear (21%), 100 points in Block Expertise (25%), 3 block cost reduction glyphs (epic quality, 191 each, 573 total) and Skills is 38% due to Fortress (30%) and Defensive Posture (8%)
The in-game block cost is 470.
Wearing 7 pieces of heavy armour, Constitution returns 1302 Health/Stamina/Magicka every time you're hit with an ICD of 4 seconds. At your rate of one attack every 1.5 seconds, @Personofsecrets, it will be possible to permablock (and gain a marginal amount of stamina) with 7 the above setup.
If you are only being hit once every 1.5 seconds that means you are tanking wrong usually, I agree if you only have to hold aggro with 1 enemy the changes actually benefit tanks. Tanks should be holding as much aggro as possible though, and especially looking at vMoL, the tank will be hit a lot more then once every 1.5 seconds. Considering that block costs increase by about 100, for each enemy above 2, tank lose an extra 100 stamina per second based on the new patch.
Asayres post is more around a single target boss fight and probably + 1 add or so, the only time I can see this being tricky would be on boss 2 of mol. But even then the tanks are always fine. It depends on what you run I guess.#MOREORBS0 -
Gilliamtherogue✭✭✭✭✭
✭I haven't done any testing with my tank setup yet so I can't comment on the whole stamina management issues and whatnot (although as a Nightblade tank I wouldn't really be affected by this change). I did see something from OP's post that resonated to me though, mainly dealing with ZoS wanting to emphasize the usage of Heavy attacks.
For a tank, it is EXTREMELY difficult to find moments of opportunity where getting a heavy attack off isn't punished, if not impossible. I understand that many bosses that would instantly kill you (Mantikora, Serpent, etc) are being readjusted so they attack more but deal less damage so even then I'd like to withhold harsh judgement on it, but I simply wanted to make a suggestion. Similar to the new Power Slam morph, there needs to be an addition for tanks to have a way to proc a mechanic that augments their next light attack into a fully charged heavy attack, without having to wind it up. Power Slam has received a change that whenever you block an attack your next Power Slam deals 25% bonus damage (which is so HYPE, I love offensive shield based gameplay). It would be very easy to implement a passive or even a unique set/item (Maelstrom Shield anyone?) that gave a chance or a set proc (10% per hit or every 10 seconds or some number that was consistent and reliable, but not inherently over powered) that your next light attack would be calculated as a fully charged heavy attack, for the bonus damage and resource return.
This would allow tanks to feel less punished when they attempt to do something other than block, promoting dynamic and engaging gameplay and allowing for stamina management to return. At the moment, only Nightblade Tanks can actively perform a damage or ability rotation because of Siphoning Attacks, which has them not only being the most enjoyable and engaging way to tank, but honestly the most efficient. Instead of being a slab of meat with a shield cast a buff every few seconds, you can do all that and actively damage or heal allies, putting emphasis on the role of a good tank again. This is how tanking SHOULD be, and you've tried to achieve this by punishing players for blocking too much in hopes that they'd do something else, but it hasn't helped do what you want. This change would be a simple and easy fix, and while it doesn't fix everything, it definitely would add a new layer of tanking to allow for more interesting builds and gameplay to shine.Edited by Gilliamtherogue on April 27, 2016 12:00AMOld member of The Order of Mundus, Mostly Harmless, Hostile, and Genesis Elite. Avid theorycrafter. Herald to competitive stamina DPS pre 1.5. How far we've come!
Have questions? Send me a message on the forums or my other social media. Seeing people learn is my dream and passion.
Guides and other fun videos at https://youtube.com/c/gilliamtherogue8 -
In AoE situations, you have a lot of group buffs to the point you'll never run out of Stamina, repentance, siphon spirit, spear shards.. so using mol i'd say you should be fine with all those buffs, our tanks never run out of staminaSirSilverMask wrote: »I wasn't unable to find a change in the block cost on the PTS. The base cost is still 2160. I included a video because the finding left me feeling incredulous
http://sendvid.com/9udfyii5
The block cost formula on the PTS appears to be
There is some rounding to 3 significant figures going on with the base cost of 2160, the Sturdy part and the Block Expertise so errors of up to 30 stamina is not uncommon. As an example of how to use the formula, I have 7 pieces of Legendary Sturdy gear (21%), 100 points in Block Expertise (25%), 3 block cost reduction glyphs (epic quality, 191 each, 573 total) and Skills is 38% due to Fortress (30%) and Defensive Posture (8%)
The in-game block cost is 470.
Wearing 7 pieces of heavy armour, Constitution returns 1302 Health/Stamina/Magicka every time you're hit with an ICD of 4 seconds. At your rate of one attack every 1.5 seconds, @Personofsecrets, it will be possible to permablock (and gain a marginal amount of stamina) with 7 the above setup.
If you are only being hit once every 1.5 seconds that means you are tanking wrong usually, I agree if you only have to hold aggro with 1 enemy the changes actually benefit tanks. Tanks should be holding as much aggro as possible though, and especially looking at vMoL, the tank will be hit a lot more then once every 1.5 seconds. Considering that block costs increase by about 100, for each enemy above 2, tank lose an extra 100 stamina per second based on the new patch.
Asayres post is more around a single target boss fight and probably + 1 add or so, the only time I can see this being tricky would be on boss 2 of mol. But even then the tanks are always fine. It depends on what you run I guess.
In response to group buffs, if 11 of 12 players are magicka, why should the healer have to slot repentance or spear shards just for the tank. Also, siphon spirit doesn't give any stamina back, so that one is irrelevant. If your example is followed, that means that ZOS is saying that Templars have to heal and they have to provide support for the tanks for tanks to be able to sustain, and that should not be a requirement, it could be a bonus, but I reiterate, there should be no requirement to have Templar healers to sustain a tanks ability to taunt and mitigate the damage to the group.
I completely understood Asayres post, and my response pointed to the fact that you can't say it is an improvement by just looking at fights against a single enemy.2 -
Synozeer✭✭✭✭✭I ran a few simple tests on the PTS for block cost for one of my characters:
LIVE
5 heavy bracing, defensive stance, no block reduction enchant, 10% block reduction cp: 568
PTS
defensive stance, no block reduction enchant, 10% block reduction cp: 1203
defensive stance, 1 gold block reduction enchant, 10% block reduction cp: 1077 [enchant gives 126]
defensive stance, no block reduction enchant, 10% block reduction cp, one 2.5% sturdy trait: 1166 [2.5% sturdy gives 37]
There's really no way to gain back the lost block reduction from the bracing passive unless you totally gimp yourself in every way (8 sturdy, 3 block reduction enchants, lots of CP into block reduction). Sturdy isn't really doing a whole lot - someone in another thread mentioned it's multiplicative while bracing was additive.
In PvP, I'd have to give up multiple magicka jewelry enchants, impen on all my armor, just to be *almost* at the cost I was before, while gaining the new heavy passives. Constitution is nice but doesn't make up for the loss in block cost, especially against multiple opponents.Watch my PvP Videos on YouTube
Azoi - Nightblade - Daggerfall Covenant - NA Server - 1st DC NA Grand Overlord
Hzarn - Templar - Daggerfall Covenant - NA Server - Grand Overlord
...and many more.3 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The new passive is vastly superior to the old setup for heavy armor..Its not even remotely debatable in PvP.
Syn you're also off on your numbers
losing 20% block cost reduction wouldn't result in going from 568 to 1203 increase..Check to make sure you've applied your Champion Pointshttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
Synozeer✭✭✭✭✭The new passive is vastly superior to the old setup for heavy armor..Its not even remotely debatable in PvP.
Syn you're also off on your numbers
losing 20% block cost reduction wouldn't result in going from 568 to 1203 increase..Check to make sure you've applied your Champion Points
I'm taking the exact same character on Live and PTS, absolutely no changes, all CP and points are applied the same. The only difference is that I'm not gaining the Bracing passive anymore. This also has similar results on Live testing 5 heavy vs. 5 non-heavy. Try it yourself and report back the results - I'm guessing you'll be surprised.
Constitution is great, but losing Bracing is too much when you're fighting multiple opponents in PvP.
EDIT: did some more testing, and the results are erratic. Sometimes it shows blocks only costing 200, and then the next block costs 1200. This is both results from using an add-on and without one (using the ESO bar with numbers activated). I think reporting of resources is a bit glitched in the PTS, but so far it only seems to do it with heavy armor. With 5 light, blocks were costing 1017, so that might be the real value.Edited by Synozeer on April 26, 2016 9:37PMWatch my PvP Videos on YouTube
Azoi - Nightblade - Daggerfall Covenant - NA Server - 1st DC NA Grand Overlord
Hzarn - Templar - Daggerfall Covenant - NA Server - Grand Overlord
...and many more.2 -
zerosingularity✭✭✭✭The new passive is vastly superior to the old setup for heavy armor..Its not even remotely debatable in PvP.
Syn you're also off on your numbers
losing 20% block cost reduction wouldn't result in going from 568 to 1203 increase..Check to make sure you've applied your Champion Points
I'm taking the exact same character on Live and PTS, absolutely no changes, all CP and points are applied the same. The only difference is that I'm not gaining the Bracing passive anymore. This also has similar results on Live testing 5 heavy vs. 5 non-heavy. Try it yourself and report back the results - I'm guessing you'll be surprised.
Constitution is great, but losing Bracing is too much when you're fighting multiple opponents in PvP.
EDIT: did some more testing, and the results are erratic. Sometimes it shows blocks only costing 200, and then the next block costs 1200. This is both results from using an add-on and without one (using the ESO bar with numbers activated). I think reporting of resources is a bit glitched in the PTS, but so far it only seems to do it with heavy armor. With 5 light, blocks were costing 1017, so that might be the real value.
Considering on Live, the math for 1 gold enchant, 25% from CP, and full passives brings me to (theoretically) 595 per block and the exact same setup on PTS brings me to (theoretically) 878 per block, I think your numbers might be a little off. I could be wrong, but this does prove that the loss of Bracing is a big sustain hit.
Even with 8 gold Sturdy items, we have me down to 670 theoretical stam loss per block with the same skill/gears. Sure the new Constitution covers some of this, but the bracing hit is big.
At this point, all the math is out of the way, and all that is left is actual field tests to see how we hold up now.NA-PC
Kaineth - Stamina Nightblade (Weakest Player Ever!)
Elena Stormwood - Magicka Sorcerer (vMA no Death 12/21/15 Score 401148)
Sheila Feyrondas - Magicka Dragonknight Tank (Frost staves are gonna be fun!)
*Disclaimer* I fail at emotional communication, so assume what I say is NOT meant to be offensive.2 -
Synozeer✭✭✭✭✭zerosingularity wrote: »The new passive is vastly superior to the old setup for heavy armor..Its not even remotely debatable in PvP.
Syn you're also off on your numbers
losing 20% block cost reduction wouldn't result in going from 568 to 1203 increase..Check to make sure you've applied your Champion Points
I'm taking the exact same character on Live and PTS, absolutely no changes, all CP and points are applied the same. The only difference is that I'm not gaining the Bracing passive anymore. This also has similar results on Live testing 5 heavy vs. 5 non-heavy. Try it yourself and report back the results - I'm guessing you'll be surprised.
Constitution is great, but losing Bracing is too much when you're fighting multiple opponents in PvP.
EDIT: did some more testing, and the results are erratic. Sometimes it shows blocks only costing 200, and then the next block costs 1200. This is both results from using an add-on and without one (using the ESO bar with numbers activated). I think reporting of resources is a bit glitched in the PTS, but so far it only seems to do it with heavy armor. With 5 light, blocks were costing 1017, so that might be the real value.
Considering on Live, the math for 1 gold enchant, 25% from CP, and full passives brings me to (theoretically) 595 per block and the exact same setup on PTS brings me to (theoretically) 878 per block, I think your numbers might be a little off. I could be wrong, but this does prove that the loss of Bracing is a big sustain hit.
Even with 8 gold Sturdy items, we have me down to 670 theoretical stam loss per block with the same skill/gears. Sure the new Constitution covers some of this, but the bracing hit is big.
At this point, all the math is out of the way, and all that is left is actual field tests to see how we hold up now.
Yeah, I think something is off. I'm getting varied values per block - I think the method I'm using for seeing the cost per block is not working properly. What method are you using to see the cost per block in game on the PTS?
Edited by Synozeer on April 26, 2016 9:55PMWatch my PvP Videos on YouTube
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