code65536 wrote: »

Let's not forget that this addon cuts both ways. .../...
For the kind of people who think that 20K is required in for a PUG dungeon, then I can guarantee you that they themselves can't do anywhere near that kind of damage. These are the "wannabes" that you talk about.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said.
BUT...
I believe some people can be jerks enough to kick someone for supposedly low DPS EVEN if it's higher than theirs. And what's even worse than a jerk ? A jerk with the crown...

You can say "ignore them, they're not worth it, just queue up again" but no. I won't queue up again, but drop LFG grouping altogether. I like it because it provides diferent runs with some unexpected, but I know enough people in the game (by far) to avoid it completely.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

coolmodi wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wait, do you mean lvl 10 dds without champion points?

@KoshkaMurka Just what I encounter in non-vet LFG dungeons, I only play again since the F2P change fom time to time, so occasional LFG is all I do on the PvE side. My only higher char is the healer I raided with in the early days of this game, that one's V10.

But be it lvl10 or V10, seeing comparable dmg to that which I do with my lower level chars (which is 3-5k dps depending on the fight) is incredibly rare. Seeing the other DD below half of that is common though. I have 90 CP or something, so a few % more dmg, but that's it.

But anita ignored all that and just went on how it is normal to do 10k, and that a DD can also be afk np, that's just not true, and I'm perfectly sure also not in many (random) V16 groups. Hence why I called it "elitist" dreamworld, where everybody is so good.

She/he also said my 5k scaled is low, which just shows that she/he really lives in some kind of dreamworld.

Hhhmmm.... Believe me, at VR16 (not "battle-levelled", plain VR16) 10K DPS is NOT HIGH. It's even average-low.
So... either we don't play the same game, OR... battle-levelling to VR16 at low levels brings people to a maximum of 7-8K DPS, and a "standard" of 3-5K ? If that is the case, ZOS should overhaul battle levelling urgently...

I don't have a low level char right now so I cannot test, but can anyone here please help sorting this out : what DPS does a lvl15-40 character achieve in a VR16-scaled and battle-levelled instance ?

(Of course I'm quite happy about Gina's message, but posting Whitney Houston's "I will always love you" would feel quite out of place I guess. I'm sorry though for all of you who were genuinely happy about GroupDamage and intended to use it respectfully. Well, that feels out of place too, so I'll leave at that I guess...)

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Dunno about lower levels...but my V2-Magicka Sorc was pulling 15k...22k DPS-ST in V16 dungeons without battle-leveling...so maybe 10k+ is realistic

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I believe some people can be jerks enough to kick someone for supposedly low DPS EVEN if it's higher than theirs.

I'm sorry, but that's just preposterous.

First, if someone really does stoop that low, I doubt that the existence or non-existence of this addon would affect their behavior or change anything.

Second, who are these mythical uber-jerks that you keep bringing up? Are they really that common, as you seem to suggest? Your tirades against this addon are premised on the behavior of a tiny, rare minority--people who would continue to be jerks with or without such an addon, I might add.

an extremely disappointing ending to what could have perhaps been a good start toward a better more advancement focused community. While I try to remain open minded in all things the urge to begin testing my partners dps on the first mob of enemies (alone) to see if I should leave a dungeon is particularly compelling at this point. After all if ZoS won't help us measure dps then why shouldn't I do it at the expense of the player.

Cuyler wrote: »

Is it time for the poll yet?

poll time, oh maybe put "should zenimax offer us tools to determine single target dps and group dps" if we can't have addons to show us, then they should implement it for us.

code65536 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I believe some people can be jerks enough to kick someone for supposedly low DPS EVEN if it's higher than theirs.

I'm sorry, but that's just preposterous.

First, if someone really does stoop that low, I doubt that the existence or non-existence of this addon would affect their behavior or change anything.

Second, who are these mythical uber-jerks that you keep bringing up? Are they really that common, as you seem to suggest? Your tirades against this addon are premised on the behavior of a tiny, rare minority--people who would continue to be jerks with or without such an addon, I might add.

People I met ingame.

[mylife] I'm over 40. Dungeon Master (1987) was my first game. Skyrim (2011) was my 2nd game. ESO is my 3rd game. [/mylife]
In other words, I'm not used to the rude and violent (though harmless) way the younger generation uses nowadays (generation thing like in any generation). I haven't developed a "thicker skin" like many of you might have in other MMOs, and my "standards" might not exactly match those of the "standard MMO player". I'm not telling you this to bore you or anything, nor to say that my point of view is more valid than anyone else's, but just to put it in some kind of context. Starting ESO, I chose a sorcerer because it sounded cool, had no idea what "class" meant or implied, thought it was some kind of RP-archetype.

I *know* that there's many of us around here with a similar profile : not familiar with MMOs, not even gamers, but so hooked by TES5 that we went to ESO for the sake of "Elder Scrolls" ("Skyrim 2"...). Stayed because I love the game, and because of my guild, which is also a haven for people who, like me, cannot cope or better said, don't want to have to cope with everyday's violence / competition in the game, even though it's "normal" in MMOs ... "just ignore them" is not good enough for people like me, we want to be protected. Tamriel is an escape world, I don't want to be confronted with standard jerkiness ingame.

I know ZOS takes care of people like me : TES fans coming from solo games but potentially scared by "MMO mentality". And there's A LOT of us around. They just aren't all as "big-mouthed" as I am on forums.

In short : what might sound to you as "harmless/just ignore" is a "no/no" to people like me. For me there are A LOT of those "uber-jerks" in the game. But maybe you wouldn't even see them, you'd just widely ignore them. I can't.
If you're kicked out of a group you'd just sigh and join another group.
If I get kicked out of a group I'd probably log off for an entire week.
That leads to a risk/benefit analysis of such an addon as GroupDamage to be positive for you and negative for me. I listened and understood and even agreed to most of pro-arguments you brought. They just, imho, didn't outweight the risk. Your equation was different : you understand the risks, but you think the benefits are greater than the risks.

And I don't care how tiny a "minority" these "jerks" are. I say "don't give them an extra gun to use". And blame them for being jerks, not me for fearing them.

Hope this help understanding my position, which I believe to represent quite a lot of players who don't even dare/bother to read/post on forums.

On a side note, I was very, very eagerly expecting the "PvP part of the justice system" which was cancelled, I am very disappointed about that, which is most certainly due to "carebears like me", so you see, I also have to bow to sensitive people, too...



[Waiting for flames now, as every time anyone says something even remotely sincere and personal].

.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I believe some people can be jerks enough to kick someone for supposedly low DPS EVEN if it's higher than theirs.

I'm sorry, but that's just preposterous.

First, if someone really does stoop that low, I doubt that the existence or non-existence of this addon would affect their behavior or change anything.

Second, who are these mythical uber-jerks that you keep bringing up? Are they really that common, as you seem to suggest? Your tirades against this addon are premised on the behavior of a tiny, rare minority--people who would continue to be jerks with or without such an addon, I might add.

People I met ingame.

[mylife] I'm over 40. Dungeon Master (1987) was my first game. Skyrim (2011) was my 2nd game. ESO is my 3rd game. [/mylife]
In other words, I'm not used to the rude and violent (though harmless) way the younger generation uses nowadays (generation thing like in any generation). I haven't developed a "thicker skin" like many of you might have in other MMOs, and my "standards" might not exactly match those of the "standard MMO player". I'm not telling you this to bore you or anything, nor to say that my point of view is more valid than anyone else's, but just to put it in some kind of context. Starting ESO, I chose a sorcerer because it sounded cool, had no idea what "class" meant or implied, thought it was some kind of RP-archetype.

I *know* that there's many of us around here with a similar profile : not familiar with MMOs, not even gamers, but so hooked by TES5 that we went to ESO for the sake of "Elder Scrolls" ("Skyrim 2"...). Stayed because I love the game, and because of my guild, which is also a haven for people who, like me, cannot cope or better said, don't want to have to cope with everyday's violence / competition in the game, even though it's "normal" in MMOs ... "just ignore them" is not good enough for people like me, we want to be protected. Tamriel is an escape world, I don't want to be confronted with standard jerkiness ingame.

I know ZOS takes care of people like me : TES fans coming from solo games but potentially scared by "MMO mentality". And there's A LOT of us around. They just aren't all as "big-mouthed" as I am on forums.

In short : what might sound to you as "harmless/just ignore" is a "no/no" to people like me. For me there are A LOT of those "uber-jerks" in the game. But maybe you wouldn't even see them, you'd just widely ignore them. I can't.
If you're kicked out of a group you'd just sigh and join another group.
If I get kicked out of a group I'd probably log off for an entire week.
That leads to a risk/benefit analysis of such an addon as GroupDamage to be positive for you and negative for me. I listened and understood and even agreed to most of pro-arguments you brought. They just, imho, didn't outweight the risk. Your equation was different : you understand the risks, but you think the benefits are greater than the risks.

Hope this help understanding my position, which I believe to represent quite a lot of players who don't even dare/bother to read/post on forums.

On a side note, I was very, very eagerly expecting the "PvP part of the justice system" which was cancelled, I am very disappointed about that, which is most certainly due to "carebears like me", so you see, I also have to bow to sensitive people, too...

[Waiting for flames now, as every time anyone says something even remotely sincere and personal].

.

I see your point. Guess I'm just more thick skinned (if I meet those jerks, I just laugh and add them to ignore list), but I can underdstand you. Though unfortunately these people can stil find a reason to be, well, jerks. Be it dps or gear or even your class. Even people with minmaxed chars and high dps are not safe from these situations. The only way to avoid this is to run pledges with likeminded people from your guild or friends list.

Im installing that addon ^^

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

what good is it to whack on a test dummy if I don't have numerical values to show me progress?

On a test dummy the game will show you what you're doing (cloud combat text coming with next update in vanilla game), and FTC or similar addons will tell you, too.

That's to say if the incremental patch that's going to affect groupdamage isn't going to affect those addons or any other future incremental patches. Which reminds me #ripFTCsoOutdatedplissSomebodytakeover

Oh and if they give us cloud combat text than pliss ZoS give us native damage meters group and single target #kThanks

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

There are a few people in this thread who are trying to convince others that this addon will magically transform nice players into jerks and cause them to kick people from groups. For the most part I've found this community friendly and helpful (and generally accepting of help). Most of the times when someone finds out their gear is part of the problem causing sub-par DPS or survivability, they'll make a change. Also, most of the time if that person can't afford it, there are others in the community who'll craft it for free and help them every step of the way.

The player base of this game won't transform into a bunch of jerks just because of the existence of one addon, and removing this addon won't make the players who kick others from group suddenly nice and patient.

So what do most of the negative posts in this thread look like to me? They look like fear mongering.

I wish the suggestions to use FTC's optional sharing were valid; however, FTC appears to no longer be in development. The damage sharing feature of FTC was also less reliable and more buggy than GroupDamage (even in this early and still buggy stage of development). I'm sorry to see this addon go as it truly is a useful tool. Perhaps @coolmodi can make an attempt to cannibalize the FTC damage meter and group damage sharing in an effort to keep something useful to groups in active development.

If the functionality that powers this addon is removed I will be very sorry to see it go.

Note: I am not a hardcore PvE player. I've never run a group trial, I mostly PUG the pledges and join in guild events. I have not cleared vCoA, vWGT or vICP. I just managed to take down the Engine Guardian for the first time last week.

In short: I'm a filthy casual, but I love using this addon.

GroupDamage doesn't really tell anyone anything that's not already obvious if you look. Right before I started using this addon I was in a vet Fungal Grotto pledge PUG as DPS and we were stuck at Gamyne Bandu. Whenever the four shades would appear and lock a player down one of two things would happen: if it was anyone besides me that got locked I would take out a shade and the fight would continue, if I got locked down then I would inevitably be killed. Simply put, the other DPS was not keeping up and the tank and healer were unable to compensate. After a few wipes the group fell apart with the tank and the other DPS hurling insults at each other.

So bad PUGs and ***holes exist with or without this addon.

What is great about this addon, however, is that it gives you a concise, real-time display of group effectiveness as well as individual's effectiveness relative to each other. I can be in a fight that seems like it's taking too long and quickly glance at the GroupDamage meter to get an idea of what's happening without having to take focus off of my own rotation and positioning. Maybe it's me that's not keeping up and I need to work on my strategy, maybe it's the other DPS and I need to work harder at covering for them. Conversely, when we're cutting through bosses like a hot knife through butter I can glance at the display and see that the healer is putting out massive single target DPS in addition to healing, or maybe the tank is holding the boss and cutting it to pieces at the same time.

This addon allows me to quickly see what's going right in a dungeon run and gives me the opportunity to study what the good players are doing so that I can improve in my role. It also gives me context to understand how I'm performing relative to the rest of my group. It will be difficult to glean the same insights if this addon goes away.

Please read

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »
Honestly this addon actually took away from the elitest and abrasive attitude that some people tell stories about being kicked for not pulling high DPS. Before the only way to truly see someone's DPS was to have them post from an addon like FTC, Combat Analytics, or something else. These were many times doctored or flat out ignored by players, which usually ended up on them being black listed for lying or refusing to share their damage. Many guilds had to make the choice because in end game content you need to have a bench mark in order to actually complete content, and there was no way to see if a player was pulling their weight unless they complied. Refusing to comply meant they could either let them stay and forever not know, or to take the safe route and just not have them come again.

Now with GroupDamage I've actually been helping even more players learn more about their specs because I can see actual data in front of me to find out where they could be lacking. Before I wasn't able to send people tells saying things like, "Hey, noticed your damage is a little bit on the low end, are you interested in boosting your performance?" or something of the letter. Being the guild leader of NA's top PvE guild I often run with players who are trying to join our ranks, and GroupDamage was a massive boon that helped me determine if a player was qualified, or close to qualifying if they made some adjustments. I was able to walk by them step by step and notice flaws in where they'd spike and dip in damage based on rotation, mechanical issue, or just plain low damage output from shoddy gear choices. Not only this but this addon actually has brought a lot of friendly competition and drive back into players in our raids to put more effort forth. They know we all see the damage done and want to impress or improve, so they put in more work. Removing this puts us back to everyone just hiding their data and a lack of forward progress to be made.

Right when I think ZoS can't make any worse decisions than they already do, they just continue to impress me by how incompetent they are. If you want players to enjoy your game, you need to have a system in place that allows growth to occur. GroupDamage was finally a step in the right direction that was starting to allow the "elitests" to start realizing what other players struggle with, and help them. Yes, some underprivileged children or egotistical brats abused this system in the wrong way that made some other players feel excluded, but that is in the MASSIVE minority. This is like you removing crouch from game because a few players decide to t-bag others with crouching over and over. Stop letting the loudest and worst voices dictate your decision making.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Unbelievable... 17 pages already of inconclusive discussion where everybody thinks that the right is on his side.

It cannot be conclusive, nor does it have to be. Some people seem to lack understanding when they post something like "/threadwon" because it's not something to "win" or "loose" for any of us.
The final decision lies with ZOS and this thread is for ZOS. They probably already have their own vision of this addon, but this thread gives them an insight as to what the different player profiles think of it and feel about it, what the true intentions are of those who are using it and the fears/issues of those who disapprove of it. That's why it is important that as many people as possible contribute.

I keep on posting here because I think that someone has to stand up for all those who dislike the addon but don't speak up for fear of all the name-calling that appear here (even after moderation). Unfortunately I cannot entirely speak for them either. But it is equally important that people who like this addon express it here too.

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So you say you are here to speak up for people because they are afraid to speak for themselves? Seriously? Someone could come in here and voice their opinion and never come back to the thread to even see if someone is going to disagree with them.

I think it's over stated when someone claims to be speaking up for other people. I could simply say I speak for many people who are extremely happy with this addon and want it to be left in game.

I am displeased with the decision to patch out the group damage identification property. As someone that's played only a few classes in this game to end game, I was hoping this add-on would persist to help me tune my builds. However a DSP meter alone can't do this. The only way you know if you're doing well is to see how you measure up with respect to others. This tool gives context to the total contribution you are making, and not just how bursty you were in the execute phase. In most settings having this into can help open a dialog between you and others who are doing better than you.

We as strong players appreciate tools like this as they give us feedback so that we can accurately evaluate our builds and improve our performance.