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AoE Caps Discussion

ZOS_Wrobel
ZOS_Wrobel
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Last week, we had a really successful discussion on player abilities. It was super constructive and we got a ton of really great feedback. This week, we’d like to have that same constructive discussion with AoE caps and falloff. AoE caps are something that have been talked about on the forums for a while now and discussion has picked up recently, especially with regards to PvP. We’d like to discuss them in a bit more detail and provide some design goals for the system, as well as the overall vision for larger scale PvP in ESO.

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

With that being said, there are a few situations where healing is able to out scale damage. The first step we are taking is to look at some of the abilities that heal far more than we would like in large group fights. We’re specifically looking at Purge and Barrier initially, and will be reducing the max targets these abilities can hit. While we are looking at specific abilities, we are also looking into Magicka Detonation. This ability was always intended to be more effective versus groups and less effective against individual targets, and it is not meeting those design goals currently.

Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

For feedback this week, we’d love to hear about situations in which you feel like you are having problems against large groups of players. Include the number of players you’re fighting against, abilities you believe they are using, and abilities you feel need tweaks to make them more effective against larger numbers.
Lead Combat Designer
Eric Wrobel
Staff Post
  • tinythinker
    tinythinker
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    There have been so many debates about this. Some want dynamic ultimate back with no AoE caps to fight zergs, others say that will make things worse.

    I honestly have no idea what would actually work with real people on the live server, because all mechanics have a way to be leveraged in ways a designer didn't foresee.

    That said, for Proxy Det, I vote for having it tickle against one or two targets, so even if a large bomb groups spams it against a few people it doesn't do much. If it then scales up rapidly after 3-4 targets, it has a chance to serve its original purpose.

    Limiting the number of people covered by Barrier and Purge just means more people in a bomb group will have it slotted and spam it. A cooldown on how often a particular player can benefit from it (either be immune or have it operate at reduced effectiveness) would do more to reduce the spamming of it and the ability of bomb groups to Barrier-->Proxy Det-->Purge their way through everything.

    It might also be worth, as a longer term goal, looking at adding another Alliance War skill tree to help balance things out, but that would rapidly drift off topic.
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  • Nafirian
    Nafirian
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    I guess you never saw PvP pre 1.6 Wrobel. 5 man groups could put up very strong fights against 20 people.. IF you will change healing you need to chnage it in a way that isnt punishing smaller sized groups. Keep heal cap on 6 but completely REMOVE the damage cap, that solves all problems. Numbers shouldnt matter, Skill howeever, should.

    The reason healing can outscale damage is AOE caps and turteling.......

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  • fred.thomsonb16_ESO
    Just remove AoE damage caps, leave the rest alone. You can always change it later in a hotfix if there are problems. Ballista will be the new meta if you cap purge -..-, the idea should be that players determine who they kill or heal and how they die, placing caps removes the player from the situation.
  • Morostyle
    Morostyle
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    Remove Damage AOE cap - fix meteor - ty ty
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  • Derra
    Derra
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    I guess you never saw PvP pre 1.6 Wrobel. 5 man groups could put up very strong fights against 20 people.. IF you will change healing you need to chnage it in a way that isnt punishing smaller sized groups. Keep heal cap on 6 but completely REMOVE the damage cap, that solves all problems. Numbers shouldnt matter, Skill howeever, should.

    The reason healing can outscale damage is AOE caps and turteling.......

    Pre 1.6 we had hardcapped aoes at 6 targets. The reason why ppl could put up a better fight back then compared to now was dynamic ultimate gain. Which is a whole different topic.
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  • tinythinker
    tinythinker
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).
    Someone who PvPs a lot will have to say whether this would make sense or not, but how about considering this the other way around? Currently, the more enemies there, the less damage is effectively done. Why not increase the damage done based on the number of players hit? So 25% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 100% to the last 30. That way, the AoE abilities are good against large groups, but single-target spells remain useful in 1-on-1 situations. Zergs spamming the AoEs wouldn't be very effective, as they will be up against a smaller number, and healers wouldn't be able to heal the zerg as effectively because more people will have taken more damage.
    Shhhhhhh... if they do that and fix the Proxy Det scaling along the same lines what would happen to the big beautiful groups of 30-70?
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  • tinythinker
    tinythinker
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).
    Someone who PvPs a lot will have to say whether this would make sense or not, but how about considering this the other way around? Currently, the more enemies there, the less damage is effectively done. Why not increase the damage done based on the number of players hit? So 25% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 100% to the last 30. That way, the AoE abilities are good against large groups, but single-target spells remain useful in 1-on-1 situations. Zergs spamming the AoEs wouldn't be very effective, as they will be up against a smaller number, and healers wouldn't be able to heal the zerg as effectively because more people will have taken more damage.
    Shhhhhhh... if they do that and fix the Proxy Det scaling along the same lines what would happen to the big beautiful groups of 30-70?
    Oh dear, they may become unsustainable, resulting in groups breaking up and an improvement in the lag situation! Alternatively, they may be forced to coordinate more, resulting in sieges looking as good as this:

    rather than the stuttery blob of players that we see right now. :stuck_out_tongue:

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  • usmcjdking
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    The problem with zerg balls isn't necessarily that they are undefeatable.

    The problem with zerg balls is they show up with precharged 40 meteors, barriers and batswarms while having proxy det charged. You get lagged, then you die to the AOE while you are getting kicked to the login screen.

    AoE caps on offensive abilities are NOT the problem. They are problematic on defensive skills.
    Edited by usmcjdking on November 24, 2015 11:27PM
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  • Minsc
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    Exactly as timidobserver and Derra have said . Because of the AoE damage caps and especially because of the smart healing even when the 5 lead the 20 at a tight space , the 20 have the additional advantage ( encouraging large groups to blob with the previously mentioned results to the server performance)
    Edited by Minsc on November 25, 2015 12:29AM
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Oh btw, steel tornado. The heck I say? Its an instant spammable AoE. Is there any magicka spammable AoE? Nope! Every other AoE has either a timer or you have to place it on a spot, steel tornado is just killer on both sides of the coin. Why wouldn't you use it as a stamina player?
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