AoE Caps Discussion

  • Derra
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    Sublime wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    1) Remove AOE caps on dmg.

    I see, after you wrote the only issue with aoe would be swarm and tornado, I was a bit confused, but this makes it more clear. :)

    Oh - i only meant that those are the only aoes i feel have too much radius and therefor are more likely to be used in non aoe situations with spread out targets.
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

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  • Manoekin
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    Zheg wrote: »
    @Wrobel , I hope you timed this thread creation with the intention of having mass amounts of pumpkin pie to gorge on and get through the angry posts (that are mostly warranted, to be fair...).

    I truly don't think removing the aoe cap is going to have as pronounced an effect as has been sold to the general playerbase by a few well known names, but on that same vein of thought, I don't see too much harm in removing the aoe cap. The biggest concern I would want to see addressed if the aoe cap is removed are added measures to prevent group v group fights from being over even quicker than they already are. Lag permitting, most group v group fights come down to who gets their own bomb off successfully and can wipe the entire (or a large percentage of the) opposing group in one shot. If those fights are already over in literally <4 seconds, and the aoe caps are already in place to mitigate damage, their removal will make those fights even shorter because the bombs will be bigger. I know a few small-group minded players salivate at that thought, but I've always preferred long drawn out battles where sides clash and have chances to regroup, maneuver, and strategize DURING a fight. Most of our meta is already bomb and done, and I'd very much prefer to not see pvp go even further down that path. I know some of the small groupers want to be able to run into a juicy stack of players with <=4 of their own and blow everyone up in a second with ulti and aoe, but at that point it comes down to ego and wanting to be able to brag about kill counts rather than promoting a pvp environment focused on actual fighting with counters, strategy, LOS, terrain, etc. If I wanted to oneshot people, I'd play an FPS. I want tactical pvp fights with skills and sets that allow me to counter some builds and be weak to other builds, with fights that last long enough for all players to react and put up a fight. As fun as it is to stealth one-shot a vampire using the ridiculous mechanics of camo hunter, if all of pvp was like that it'd be boring as hell and people would spend more time on their horses (or in fact, running, because of the stuck in combat bug -_-) than actually fighting. Being blown up by prox det, ults, and aoe even quicker than the current meta does not sound like healthy or fun pvp.

    Call me crazy, but I want pvp to be about actually fighting other players, not blowing them up in 2 seconds so they can ride back on their mount, or being blown up myself in 2 seconds so I can ride back.

    Anyway, aoe caps don't make sense as an artificial limiter, but their removal would require (imo) mechanic changes to make sure aoes don't just melt everybody now. A strong prox det + ult combined with someone else's ult and a steel tornado can obliterate most players' health bar, and I'd don't see it as a healthy thing for the meta to shift even more towards a buff and bomb mentality. PLEASE be wary of that, as I don't think you're going to be able to placate the playerbase unless you remove the aoe caps - they've been whipped into such a frenzy over this you really don't have an alternative. Just make sure the aoe caps are removed responsibly so that TTK is not even shorter that it currently is for group v group fights.

    Great points, but I can sum it up for you.

    Reintroduce soft caps.

    :tongue:

    And I agree.
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  • MisterBigglesworth
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    The game could use some more AOE knockbacks so you could more easily pick out the enemy zerg's healer and single-target focus them down.
    Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.
  • Zheg
    Zheg
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    Xsorus wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    @Wrobel , I hope you timed this thread creation with the intention of having mass amounts of pumpkin pie to gorge on and get through the angry posts (that are mostly warranted, to be fair...).

    I truly don't think removing the aoe cap is going to have as pronounced an effect as has been sold to the general playerbase by a few well known names, but on that same vein of thought, I don't see too much harm in removing the aoe cap. The biggest concern I would want to see addressed if the aoe cap is removed are added measures to prevent group v group fights from being over even quicker than they already are. Lag permitting, most group v group fights come down to who gets their own bomb off successfully and can wipe the entire (or a large percentage of the) opposing group in one shot. If those fights are already over in literally <4 seconds, and the aoe caps are already in place to mitigate damage, their removal will make those fights even shorter because the bombs will be bigger. I know a few small-group minded players salivate at that thought, but I've always preferred long drawn out battles where sides clash and have chances to regroup, maneuver, and strategize DURING a fight. Most of our meta is already bomb and done, and I'd very much prefer to not see pvp go even further down that path. I know some of the small groupers want to be able to run into a juicy stack of players with <=4 of their own and blow everyone up in a second with ulti and aoe, but at that point it comes down to ego and wanting to be able to brag about kill counts rather than promoting a pvp environment focused on actual fighting with counters, strategy, LOS, terrain, etc. If I wanted to oneshot people, I'd play an FPS. I want tactical pvp fights with skills and sets that allow me to counter some builds and be weak to other builds, with fights that last long enough for all players to react and put up a fight. As fun as it is to stealth one-shot a vampire using the ridiculous mechanics of camo hunter, if all of pvp was like that it'd be boring as hell and people would spend more time on their horses (or in fact, running, because of the stuck in combat bug -_-) than actually fighting. Being blown up by prox det, ults, and aoe even quicker than the current meta does not sound like healthy or fun pvp.

    Call me crazy, but I want pvp to be about actually fighting other players, not blowing them up in 2 seconds so they can ride back on their mount, or being blown up myself in 2 seconds so I can ride back.

    Anyway, aoe caps don't make sense as an artificial limiter, but their removal would require (imo) mechanic changes to make sure aoes don't just melt everybody now. A strong prox det + ult combined with someone else's ult and a steel tornado can obliterate most players' health bar, and I'd don't see it as a healthy thing for the meta to shift even more towards a buff and bomb mentality. PLEASE be wary of that, as I don't think you're going to be able to placate the playerbase unless you remove the aoe caps - they've been whipped into such a frenzy over this you really don't have an alternative. Just make sure the aoe caps are removed responsibly so that TTK is not even shorter that it currently is for group v group fights.

    Zheg you run in a zerg ball, The thing that benefits most from AOE Caps...You don't see to have much of a problem with your Zerg Ball wiping anything less then almost instantly..But you seem to have trouble with it now that it might effect you equally.

    Sorry, but if 2 people run into a group of 20ish, they were never very good players to begin with (is that where all of your salt comes from?) and of course they're going to blow up instantly. Also, I know it's hard not to look like an idiot when you make assumptions about people you've never even talked to in game, but you should at least make an attempt. I've always despised the short TTK in cyrodiil, even moreso in group v group fights. That's been the functionality since launch, you either have to live with it or leave the game. That doesn't mean I or anyone else should be oblivious to the fact that an aoe cap removal, while justified, will need to also address the fact that the TTK any time more than one player decides to aoe burst (post cap removal) will result in an even shorter TTK. I don't see this as a good thing, nor do I see it as healthy for pvp, so I made a post to stress to Wroebel to at least be wary of it - perfectly reasonable. Considering you whine 24/7 about being blown up by groups, I'd guess you wouldn't see an even shorter TTK as a good or healthy thing either, and yet you're trying to pick a fight because you can't pass up an opportunity to spit venom about groups, regardless of whether it's even applicable to the discussion. You need a 12 step program, but unfortunately, 12 steps is more than 8 and therefore a zerg.
    Edited by Zheg on November 25, 2015 11:15PM
    ==Vehemence raid lead== and a surviving member of ==Mostly Harmless==

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  • Zlater
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    I'll personally say that I don't completely like the idea of nerfing barrier and purge. They do need to be rebalanced. But for many non-temp healers these skills are vital in Pve. While I know this isn't about pve it does have impact beyond pvp.

    If you aren't able to completely remove aoe caps, what if you added some sort of position based system. So for example if you buff Pulsar's damage and radius, but then changed it so that It'll do decreased damage the further away from the caster the enemy is. I don't think it makes sense that 1 person can bust a 20 person group as was happening before 1.6, but I dont think it should be completely impossible.
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  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    Double post. :|
    Edited by Sublime on November 26, 2015 12:06AM
  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    It was easier to burst in 1.6 than it is now - by a long shot. So this isnt correct.

    I wouldn't agree on that. As I only have my memory to compare, which cannot be used as proof, I won't go into detail.
    Edited by Sublime on November 26, 2015 12:27AM
  • Sublime
    Sublime
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  • Zheg
    Zheg
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    Xsorus wrote: »

    I'm sorry; but if 2 people get the jump on 20 stacked idiots they should absolutely have a chance to blow them up...Cause those 20 people shouldn't of been standing in one spot stacked in the first place.

    also a Low TTK isn't bad depending on how it is...for example..Instantly dying from unseen burst in a 1v1...Bad for the game usually...a Low TTK for groups that are stacked in one spot and didn't spread on inc and got bombed..Good for the game..This forces actual situational awareness instead of just relying on numbers to win..which i know is something you favor..but it is unhealthy for the game. If the TTK is increased on bombs for example that means people will still stack and just heal through the actual Bombs itself with smart healing and such. If there is no threat of a fast death..No one will spread.



    Very rarely have you said something that made me consider for a moment that you may actually have experience playing in large groups in ESO and have an idea of what you're talking about. You seem to always be talking about the pug groups that have < half the people in group actually in TS and typing an autoinvite code in zone, then stack together in an attempt for some semblance of organization. Guess what, the good pvp groups we fight every night make attempts to move out of bombs and spread - the exact thing you think doesn't happen.

    In addition, there are in fact times when you must be condensed, alla inner keeps. Next time you are able to take a heavily defended inner keep while outnumbered during primetime by having 1-2 people trickle on top of a flag to try and flip it, let me know. When you fail miserably and have to put a reasonable number of people on the flag to actually flip it (guess what, all in the same aoe range), then I'll happily call you out for zerging - as you seem to be so eager to always do. Just because people are stacked does not make them idiots, which is a difficult concept for you to grasp, I realize.
    Edited by Zheg on November 26, 2015 12:32AM
    ==Vehemence raid lead== and a surviving member of ==Mostly Harmless==

    V16 Breton Temp - Zig Zheg
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  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    Zheg wrote: »
    Etaniel wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    @Wrobel , I hope you timed this thread creation with the intention of having mass amounts of pumpkin pie to gorge on and get through the angry posts (that are mostly warranted, to be fair...).

    I truly don't think removing the aoe cap is going to have as pronounced an effect as has been sold to the general playerbase by a few well known names, but on that same vein of thought, I don't see too much harm in removing the aoe cap. The biggest concern I would want to see addressed if the aoe cap is removed are added measures to prevent group v group fights from being over even quicker than they already are. Lag permitting, most group v group fights come down to who gets their own bomb off successfully and can wipe the entire (or a large percentage of the) opposing group in one shot. If those fights are already over in literally <4 seconds, and the aoe caps are already in place to mitigate damage, their removal will make those fights even shorter because the bombs will be bigger. I know a few small-group minded players salivate at that thought, but I've always preferred long drawn out battles where sides clash and have chances to regroup, maneuver, and strategize DURING a fight. Most of our meta is already bomb and done, and I'd very much prefer to not see pvp go even further down that path. I know some of the small groupers want to be able to run into a juicy stack of players with <=4 of their own and blow everyone up in a second with ulti and aoe, but at that point it comes down to ego and wanting to be able to brag about kill counts rather than promoting a pvp environment focused on actual fighting with counters, strategy, LOS, terrain, etc. If I wanted to oneshot people, I'd play an FPS. I want tactical pvp fights with skills and sets that allow me to counter some builds and be weak to other builds, with fights that last long enough for all players to react and put up a fight. As fun as it is to stealth one-shot a vampire using the ridiculous mechanics of camo hunter, if all of pvp was like that it'd be boring as hell and people would spend more time on their horses (or in fact, running, because of the stuck in combat bug -_-) than actually fighting. Being blown up by prox det, ults, and aoe even quicker than the current meta does not sound like healthy or fun pvp.

    Call me crazy, but I want pvp to be about actually fighting other players, not blowing them up in 2 seconds so they can ride back on their mount, or being blown up myself in 2 seconds so I can ride back.

    Anyway, aoe caps don't make sense as an artificial limiter, but their removal would require (imo) mechanic changes to make sure aoes don't just melt everybody now. A strong prox det + ult combined with someone else's ult and a steel tornado can obliterate most players' health bar, and I'd don't see it as a healthy thing for the meta to shift even more towards a buff and bomb mentality. PLEASE be wary of that, as I don't think you're going to be able to placate the playerbase unless you remove the aoe caps - they've been whipped into such a frenzy over this you really don't have an alternative. Just make sure the aoe caps are removed responsibly so that TTK is not even shorter that it currently is for group v group fights.

    Half of your post makes sense, the other half doesnt.
    You don't want group fights to end faster than they already do, I agree, group fights are for the most part boring atm, it's whoever has the biggest bomb impact wins. removing aoe caps will make it even faster, yes. But that's only if groups keep playing the way they do, with crown stacking being the prominent strategy.

    you want "tactical pvp fights with skills and sets that allow me to counter some builds and be weak to other builds", and that is just not part of large group play I'm sorry. Group play requires group focused builds, and not builds that focus on countering what your enemy is using atm.

    If group think a bit, removal of aoe caps will make them spread out when they are being engaged by a bomb group, rendering the bomb group's aoe useless, and they'll work from there.

    [...]
    If the goal is to make it so that no one ever stacks up ever again, how is that any different than a bunch of pugs running around in a cluster****? Groups still need to be able to condense and move as a unit, otherwise it just becomes a ganker's paradise where everyone is spread out and able to be ganked in <2 seconds from stealth. What's that? You want the group to move out to roebeck because it's burst and you need to get their quickly to defend? Let's all trickle in one at a time so we don't cluster and get oneshotted by a 2 man groups ult dump, and have a backline that spans the distance between the two keeps to provide ample opportunity for gank groups. I'm exaggerating here, but that doesn't sound very fun or functional. Cyrodiil is designed for group v group fights, people with an abhorrence for groups need to realize that you cannot eliminate groups and still have a functional cyrodiil. Removing artificial limitations is certainly justified, but if the goal is to prevent people from ever being able to condense because now 2 people can wipe an entire group with prox det and ult, I can promise you that it won't be healthy pvp - regardless of what some insist. If that ends up being the meta, the current large groups could just run in small, balanced clusters and just spread their aoe out to an ever wider area if it's going to hit that much harder. If you need a visual reference, think about the lightning clock mechanic in white gold tower molag kena fight where it's just a line of high damage rather than a single red circle.
    [...]

    If the large group is travelling as a stacked unit but is too slow to react when another group is about to jump them, they should die or at least lose a lot of players... I don't even get how one can argue about this, if it's not the case, that would mean "gankers" and just in general anyone trying to cut reinforcements has no place in Cyrodiil's meta. If a raid is not able to get to reliably reach a destination in a "spread out in smaller units form", what does that tell you? I'd say the raid either wasn't made up of good players or unwilling to use builds that can survive outside a zergball. Since the latter shouldn't even exist - that's why players want to remove AoE caps - it would be missing skill then, post AoE cap removal.
    Zheg wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »

    I'm sorry; but if 2 people get the jump on 20 stacked idiots they should absolutely have a chance to blow them up...Cause those 20 people shouldn't of been standing in one spot stacked in the first place.

    also a Low TTK isn't bad depending on how it is...for example..Instantly dying from unseen burst in a 1v1...Bad for the game usually...a Low TTK for groups that are stacked in one spot and didn't spread on inc and got bombed..Good for the game..This forces actual situational awareness instead of just relying on numbers to win..which i know is something you favor..but it is unhealthy for the game. If the TTK is increased on bombs for example that means people will still stack and just heal through the actual Bombs itself with smart healing and such. If there is no threat of a fast death..No one will spread.


    [...]
    In addition, there are in fact times when you must be condensed, alla inner keeps. Next time you are able to take a heavily defended inner keep while outnumbered during primetime by having 1-2 people trickle on top of a flag to try and flip it, let me know. When you fail miserably and have to put a reasonable number of people on the flag to actually flip it (guess what, all in the same aoe range), then I'll happily call you out for zerging - as you seem to be so eager to always do. Just because people are stacked does not make them idiots, which is a difficult concept for you to grasp, I realize.

    Well you don't need to stack up on the flags if you outnumber your enemy and if you don't, AoE cap removal would help you wipe them, so I really don't see your point.
    The flag mechanics are a problem though, they shouldn't turn in any direction if there are still enemies on the flag imo. Using a flawed mechanic to justify a flawed mechanic is kinda... flawed.
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  • prootch
    prootch
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    Aoe cap removal would not spread multi warbands... it would only make things worse, encouraging organized groups to stack massive aoe damage to instant kill any opposition.

    We currently play in a organized warband mainly mono target by choice (we suppressed steel tornadoe - 16-24 players - PC EU) from a guilds alliance of several hundred accounts (called Alliances). We are fighting huge amount of players without lag provided they are not aoe spamballs. But each time we cross an organized aeo spamball group we mostly get stuck in lag. Organized aoe spamballs warbands are obviously one of the main causes of lag. Permanent lag caused massive departure from the game over the last few months. At the moment only one campaign is playable with barely enough opposition and limited lag in prime time.

    Suppressing aoe cap would only encourage these 24 players spamballs to pack more people in order to outdamage other 24 players aoe spamballs. We already face multi warbands full detonation + steel tornadoe spam: they are instantly creating massive lag in the process. There is a trend of organized groups coming from mmos like guildwars to consider aoe organized stack should be the only efficient solution to win a fight: this is basically wrong and really lacking of interest as far as ava is concerned. Mono target damage is from far more interesting to play for everyone in the group. At least its better than spamming two spells packed in a square meter, sticking the lead brainless.

    Therefore, limitation of aoe damage and enhancement of single target damage would certainly be more efficient to avoid the compulsory "I win" spamballs modes which are used mainly by organized groups and causing massive lag atm. Organized aoe group are usually asking for more aoe damage decap only to fullfill some fantasm of god mode aoe strikes on mass of unorganized pugs (whom are not the main cause of lag as far as we can see during actual fights).

    If we aim at keeping cyrodiil population up, aoe damage decap is the contrary of what should be done. Dying instantly in a massive aoe stack is the contrary of fun for every player except some organized aoe spamballs players. Aoe efficiency can be usefull in pve, but it should be massively limited in pvp.

    So if the aim of this project is to enable the majority of players with a funny pvp experience, we have to consider:
    - Long fights (against instant death by deto+tornadoe steel combination or any other instant combination by the way, to avoid counter strike headshot like kills)
    - Lag decrease by depacking warbands
    - Lag limitation by decreasing aoe occurence
    - Improved combat interest with more mono target spells
    - tactical manoeuver all over the map (so do not reintroduce rez camps, they would limit reinforcements movement between keeps)

    A few proposals:
    - Massive decrease of all aoe damage in pvp in order to make aoe spamballs far less efficient than monotarget groups
    (an additionnal -50% for example)
    - or make sure aoe cannot be stacked efficiently on the same area of effect:
    just like elemental wall cannot be stacked, deto, pulsar and steel tornadoe should not stack damage on the same area either.
    - Suppression of steel tornadoe aoe execute option, it's the only aoe execute in the game (far too much used by organized groups atm, it should be critically less efficient than mono target spells)
    - Limitation of steel tornadoe area of effect on the same level than other aoe (ex: pulsar)
    - Increase of siege weapons damage to increase efficiency against huge groups (this should make more damage than usual aoe, but weapon setup should be longer to avoid instant spawn of siege weapons in field fights
    - Make sure healing spells doesn't increase the stacking trend:
    extand distance for healing spells in order to limit the need of "heal stacking" AND limit healing/buffs to group members so that people won't try to stack in other group zone heals (and make sure healing does not pass walls or doors)

    PS: friendly fire on other alliance groups would eventually unpack multi warband stacks on the map (efficiently tested on daoc full pvp servers where each group needs to select a different part of an attacked keep to avoid friendly kills), it works perfectly. From my point of view it would be the most efficient method to unpack fights in cyrodiil. It could also somewhat settle the pb of lack of balance between factions: if opposition is too low, then groups could fight against each other. A campaign with that kind of setup would be interesting (keeps property issues could be settled with guild tag).


    Edited by prootch on November 26, 2015 1:47AM
  • drumbendrum_ESO
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    I'm very limited in my PvP play time as I have just recently picked it up in the later part of this year.
    It has been a lot of fun but I have noticed significant changes from play style issues learning at BwB, to playing in vet content PvP. Mostly with dealing with larger Zerg groups that run around and steam roll everyone on the map.

    The question that we are asking is "Should we take away AoE caps?"

    "Yes" we should and I think its very simple as to why. By having caps you are empowering these groups. It was stated that smaller groups should not be able to take on larger groups merely because of numbers.

    Thats fine and all, but you need to understand that if you feel that way, then why limit the smaller numbers ability to do so by mitigating the potential damage of this group to that larger group? We are simply allowing that larger force to not only walk over everyone, but to do so and not even blink twice doing it.

    This type of play style is not fun and it causes frustration across the board. Once the zerg groups get rolling and nothing can be done about it. The other factions switch off and either leave to another server or just log off and wait for another time/day to fight.

    Any group whether small or large should be able to fight soley on there skill. Not become empowered by some sort of written game logic that will automatically mitigate the damage received just from standing around each other. Larger groups will have an advantage just by there numbers alone, why should there be anything out there to buff that? Logically that doesnt make sense to me.

    Siege should by design be an anti-zerg tool. This game had a period, which sadly I was not PvPing during that time. That had siege wreck your face. Is this the answer? To buff seige and allow it to break these groups up so that they are not clumped onto each other. I think its a step in the right direction.

    Damage is Damage, why do we keep constantly reducing said damage with illogical fixes that do not make sense?

    If a player whether in a small group or large does an ability/skill/ulti/siege-fire and hits other players it should do DAMAGE to all players that it hits.

    If you make one change right now and only one which is to remove AoE caps. It will be a step in the right direction. I know ZoS likes to make sudden moves and change everything at once but just reverting the AoE caps is enough to start working on a better PvP for tomorrow.

    This is a great game and has one of the best combat systems on the market. I invisioned this game immediatly after playing skyrim. I knew it would be successful. We will not see this type of quality game for awhile and the time is now to put it in the direction it needs to go. Bring back the PvP that everyone loved and wants to play and you will see a much better Cyrodiil across the board. Take baby steps if you need to, dont have to solve everything in one patch. But remove those caps and allow for a tactical positioned combat for what it is. FUN!
  • Manoekin
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    Sublime wrote: »
    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    It was easier to burst in 1.6 than it is now - by a long shot. So this isnt correct.

    I wouldn't agree on that. As I only have my memory to compare, which cannot be used as proof, I won't go into detail.

    Your Honor, I present this evidence: Pixystickz, the greatest DPS sorc -

    Basically any class could burst you down in a second with the right skill timing in 1.6. Right now you only find that happening with broken skills such as camo hunter and double stealth bonus.
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  • Icy
    Icy
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    Two points I don't THINK have been addressed (Not sure, there's a lot to read).

    1. Spamming AoE is often the only way to actually attack anything when your FPS is 10 and your ping is 999+. At least you're hitting SOMETHING. Sort this and more people will more effectively target people with single target attacks.
    2. Often people stack on crown to be within range of the healer. If you increased healer range, that's one less reason to stack.
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  • MrGrimey
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    Group vs Group TTK will never be too low in this version of the game especially with smart healing and Breath of life healing for the whole health bar
  • BossTuggles
    BossTuggles
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    You have turned this game into a *** embarrassment. I have no idea how the work you do is considered competent.
    Like a Boss!
  • skillastat
    skillastat
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    #REMOVEAOECAPS
    (PC NA)
    -Saulo Stamina Sorcerer
    -skillastat Stamina Nightblade
    -a blade spirit Stamina Templar
    -Ultima Online I Magicka Dragonknight
    -'Solo DC* Stamina Sorcerer
    -'Ultima Online Stamina Dragonknight
    -Nerd Dk Tank Dragonknight
    -Solochi Magicka Sorcerer
    -Solo Lucci Magicka Nightblade
    -Sølomon Magicka Warden

    *All characters are EP, except for one DC.


    French Canadian!
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Zheg wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »

    I'm sorry; but if 2 people get the jump on 20 stacked idiots they should absolutely have a chance to blow them up...Cause those 20 people shouldn't of been standing in one spot stacked in the first place.

    also a Low TTK isn't bad depending on how it is...for example..Instantly dying from unseen burst in a 1v1...Bad for the game usually...a Low TTK for groups that are stacked in one spot and didn't spread on inc and got bombed..Good for the game..This forces actual situational awareness instead of just relying on numbers to win..which i know is something you favor..but it is unhealthy for the game. If the TTK is increased on bombs for example that means people will still stack and just heal through the actual Bombs itself with smart healing and such. If there is no threat of a fast death..No one will spread.



    Very rarely have you said something that made me consider for a moment that you may actually have experience playing in large groups in ESO and have an idea of what you're talking about. You seem to always be talking about the pug groups that have < half the people in group actually in TS and typing an autoinvite code in zone, then stack together in an attempt for some semblance of organization. Guess what, the good pvp groups we fight every night make attempts to move out of bombs and spread - the exact thing you think doesn't happen.

    In addition, there are in fact times when you must be condensed, alla inner keeps. Next time you are able to take a heavily defended inner keep while outnumbered during primetime by having 1-2 people trickle on top of a flag to try and flip it, let me know. When you fail miserably and have to put a reasonable number of people on the flag to actually flip it (guess what, all in the same aoe range), then I'll happily call you out for zerging - as you seem to be so eager to always do. Just because people are stacked does not make them idiots, which is a difficult concept for you to grasp, I realize.

    I've yet to see any group in this game like the one you play in move out of a bomb and spread... In fact for all intents and purposes right now you shouldn't do it..Because that'll only cause you to be weaker and die.

    As for the rest of your post..If you're attacking a heavily defended keep while outnumbered... You should have to open up multiple holes in the keep to attack from different directions..The current method of just stacking and then just bee lining up stairs completely ignoring all siege because its weak right now is silly; and frankly rewards bad groups..You also should have a hard time taking a flag instead of stacking everyone on it and spamming AOE....that should be bloody dangerous..not a pass because of bad game mechanics...you seem to not want to have to worry about any sort of challenge simply because you've managed to stack enough bodies in a single area.

    Oh and for the record I don't think you're idiots for stacking right now...The game rewards it...I said you'd be idiots for stacking after the AOE cap was removed.
  • Angarato
    Angarato
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    dear @Wrobel

    look at the non-vet campaign and find your answers
    big fights go on alot of the times specially between allessia and sejanus.
    huge groups clashing day in and out and almost never ANY LAG!

    why is this you ask? ballgroups are not around much. people still zerg but theyre spread out and most people use single target abilities over aoe because people are spread out! not too far spread out they run in groups together and they jump the same people USING SINGLE TARGET ABILITIES, because they perform better in that scenario.

    now check the skills being used. nobody has your failed proxy det, the skill that was suposed to fight zergs but instead was used by zergs and every magicka user in existance ever since. not many people have meteor and caltrops either.
    it's fun, zerging is still a viable option and zerging still wins. but theyre not all stacked ontop of eachother and smaller groups can and do sometimes win when they play better.

    siege in non-vet is more effective cause not as many purge spamming ballgroups but still not effective enough, make them stronger.

    conclusion
    - break ballgroup meta before its too late REMOVE AOE CAPS
    - buff siege and REMOVE proxy det. the other morph is fine, maybe make the proxy morph a castable one like the other 2 and give a healing debuff or a silence. the other morph does what it should. it breaks up a group. lower the damage to 1 person and improve the scaling
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    Sublime wrote: »
    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    It was easier to burst in 1.6 than it is now - by a long shot. So this isnt correct.

    I wouldn't agree on that. As I only have my memory to compare, which cannot be used as proof, I won't go into detail.

    Your Honor, I present this evidence: Pixystickz, the greatest DPS sorc -

    Basically any class could burst you down in a second with the right skill timing in 1.6. Right now you only find that happening with broken skills such as camo hunter and double stealth bonus.

    I could literally kill people off horses with 2 crit rushes last patch. Its like 7 now. Its not even a comparison I dont even know how people can lie to themselves about this sort of thing.

    My personal favorite was using my nightblade to do Focused Aim/Ambush combo...They both hit the same time for stupid amounts of damage.

    But yea...damage in current patch is no where near 1.6...
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