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AoE Caps Discussion

  • Jaronking
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    Remove AOE cap and bring a lot of players back.Its makes both sides happy.You get more players and the PvP community starts to become a vibrant community again.
  • I55UE5
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    I agree to removing AoE caps and making siege strong again on players.

    While you as developers may not think it is a good idea.. you owe it to your loyal fans to let us test it.

    It is clear in this post that a large number of forum users agree with the removal, let us try it at the very least.
  • Takuto
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    Dumb down heal prioritization in large groups.

    Right now all heals prioritize the targets at lowest health. This means stacking up and spamming heals is effective despite the fact that the healer doesn't even know who is attacked and when.

    What I mean by make them dumber, if you are in a stack of say ~60 players in a 4m radius area, the server shouldn't cycle through all 60 to determine who needs the heal the most, it should just apply to those closest to the center of the heal, or perhaps prioritize on a very abbreviated list of group members or those closest to them.


    In addition to that I'd like to see a class of abilities that scale up in damage/cc strength based on the number of targets, and I'm not talking about 25% or 50% or something pitiful like that. I'm talking one shot kills on very large numbers of players if they do something as supremely stupid as stack up in two full raid groups in a 4 meter radius.

    Eternal Destiny (PC/NA)
    Dead Wait (PC/NA Haderus AD)
  • Jaronking
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    Ixtyr wrote: »
    I agree completely with @Ffastyl here. Removing AoE Caps is a good thing, in most cases, but @Wrobel and team are going to need to be careful to make sure the meta doesn't remain balling up. Removal of AoE Caps by itself doesn't change the fact that more people will generally beat smaller groups, especially when they move as a cohesive unit. Not that that's a bad thing - this is an Alliance WAR, folks, not an Alliance skirmish or Alliance duel. Two people should not, barring some sort of crazy ineptitude by the opposing force, be able to realistically fend off 15-20 people. It's war - you wouldn't send 5 people to do a job that required 30. That'd be suicide. But that fact by itself is all the more reason for ZOS to give the solo/small-group PvP players what they desperately want (structured, smaller-scale PvP arenas and/or battlegrounds, as well as sparring/duels), and let players choose whether they want to play large group PvP or more solo-friendly content.

    On a less-related note, I completely, 100,000,000% agree with @Crown. Make alliance rank Account-wide. And while you're at it, make achievement points account-wide. Remove any barrier that discourages people from rolling alts. Playing every class helps people to understand the game more, but you're punishing people for doing so by effectively negating all of the work done on their other characters - and the 24-man teams of players who only play on their main characters with high alliance ranks make more casual or alt-friendly players pay for it.
    If they make AP and Alliance Skill accounts wide they should do the same thing for the Undaunted skill line become account wide.Am tired of having to run Dungeons over and over again on my Alts to become better in PVP.
  • usmcjdking
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    Mr. @Wrobel I would love to hear your justification for AOE caps. What are your thoughts behind implementing them in the first place? What is it that they do which is favorable to you?

    From my understanding of calculations, the number of computations that must be made with caps is far more than the computations that would be done without caps. Correct me if you possess some knowledge that counters this but the greatest issue we face during serious Cyrodiil performance degradation is server response time. Wouldn't removing thousands of calculations that would need to be handled by the server have a positive impact on response time?

    I strongly feel that this topic is one that you should listen to your community on as it is something we all feel strongly about. If they are removed and things become worse there is no reason why they could not be put in place again. I think you will find your community is right on this one, and it isn't the time to make a stand for what you may feel is the correct action.

    Unless they are running a legitimate potato, it is hugely unlikely that the server itself is an issue. Servers are not home computers (most of the time) - they have immense processing power. More often than not, the only time you can truly test the capabilities of a server is with folding projects.

    Bandwidth limitations and ISP QOS are the more likely culprits.
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  • Crown
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    Jaronking wrote: »
    If they make AP and Alliance Skill accounts wide they should do the same thing for the Undaunted skill line become account wide.Am tired of having to run Dungeons over and over again on my Alts to become better in PVP.

    Not the skill line, only the Alliance War Rank.
    Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26), First AD/NA Emperor of Trueflame
    PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com / ESO PvP Discord
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    Wyre | EP Sorc | The First Sorc Is Named Fail Sorc For A Reason
  • Jaronking
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    Crown wrote: »
    Jaronking wrote: »
    If they make AP and Alliance Skill accounts wide they should do the same thing for the Undaunted skill line become account wide.Am tired of having to run Dungeons over and over again on my Alts to become better in PVP.

    Not the skill line, only the Alliance War Rank.

    If that's the case than I agree make it account wide.
  • AbraXuSeXile
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    Put proxy back to how it was for a start, its hard get the jump when youve got 8 seconds? With a red ring around you and it stops the bigger groups using it because it slows them and keeps them in that animation.
    AbraXuS
    Grand Overlord Rank 50 [First EU]
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    Gaming Community - Est. 1999
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  • ToRelax
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    AoE caps on damage abilities need to be removed completely, simply for an even playing field. As pointed out numerous times, a large group always has the advantage of having more players. If 10 players fight against 20, even if there were very easily accessible and useable "zerg buster" skills in the game, the 20 could still decide to spread out. Obviously, one group of 10 players is at a major disadvantage against two groups of 10, however the game's mechanics.

    Healing and support skills (this includes Rapid Maneuver, wich you did not mention in the OP!) should have an AoE cap because 1.) smarthealing making AoE healing generally more efficient than AoE damage and 2.) no skill cooldowns allowing to spam things like Purge constantly.

    That is another point - Purge can be spammed and Retreating Maneuver in fact gives immunity (to snares and roots), so there needs to be a counter. I would like to see the snare of Oil Catapults/Iceball Trebuchets/Lightning Ballistas and the damage increase of Scattershot Catapults be made unpurgeable (again). This would not means certain death for anyone hit, but if properly used, for example in the breach of a sieged keep, it would specifically take away an advantage of stacked up groups.
    I am thinking here about forcing them to siege from different sides and send single players/small groups to take out siege using players as priority targets. These kinds of fights actually happened before 1.6, though they already suffered from the same problems.

    I am not proposing ways how small numbers can wiper out large amounts of players. I would like to see that happen, but the mentioned changes are enough for a fair shot, taking away the large group's artificial advantage, but not adding a new mechanic to help smaller numbers. I am not opposed to that idea either, I would actually love to see it and be part of it myself, but that is not the problem I have with the game.

    I want to be part of larger battles, that require good coordination and result in fights spread out over keeps. I would enjoy running in a full raid, if my own positioning mattered more, if there was more room for single target abilities and players had to actively interrupt enemies, dodge roll etc.


    PS:
    - I'd like a new dynamic ultimate generation system, both to help smaller groups against stacked up ones and to give DK's back their ability to stand their ground.
    - I don't want the healing debuff from Meatbags and generally siege DoTs to be unpurgeable. I thought about making them only unpurgeable for the skill Purge, but that would again equal a nerf to DKs in siege battles, because they are the only class without a DoT purge and moblity skill.

    Edit: Almost forgot, more than just putting in a lower AoE cap, I agree with @Derra 's approach to let Rapid Maneuver break on non-HoT heals. But if for some reason that shouldn't/couldn't be done, I'd still rather have it capped than how it is currently.
    Edited by ToRelax on November 25, 2015 4:22AM
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
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  • MisterBigglesworth
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    I wonder if Wrobel's team is waiting to see how that "fix now involving our physics engine" goes first before commiting to an ability/aoe cap overhaul.

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/232471/reddit-matt-firor-claims-dramatic-pvp-lag-fix-incoming/
    Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.
  • Celas_Dranacea
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    If there isn't a strong argument against the idea that aoe caps have a factor in performance from 1) increased calculations and 2) encouraging ball behavior, than I think there's a strong argument for removing aoe caps.

    After all the great work u did for 1.6, aoe caps aren't as necessary anymore. Maybe we can remove aoe caps and increase damage reduction by 10% in Cyrodil?

    Your call man! Respectfully
    Edited by Celas_Dranacea on November 25, 2015 6:38PM
    A Bosmer Nightblade Werewolf
  • Galalin
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    AoE caps need removed period for damage and here is where the flaming might start but gonna put it out there. Heals have a max output per player based on stats as is but going 1 step further (to again based on stats) make a hardcap on the total output of a healing spell. This total output of a healing spell will be divided equally among the amount of players it heals if the hardcap value of the spell is reached. This will encourage several smaller groups since the healing will be more effective, as such only reducing the effectiveness of massive stacking of multiple raids and would have no effect on PvE. This hardcap will allow you to make adjustments to the healing quickly and easily in order to find that sweetspot. This will also help close the gap between small and large grps without the drastic changes to a million skills (which needs to be looked at anyhow) but still not creating a situation that makes the gap so big a 5 man is wiping 20 mans with ease because of skill difference.

    Let the roast begin

    DK Scrub out
    DK SCRUB OUT
  • Darlgon
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    Wrobel wrote: »
    Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

    Sorry Eric... I am gonna be stupid on this one. That should be.. situational, not always, not even most.

    In an open field fight, facing off? Yes.. a group of 20 should be able to beat a group of five. in seconds.

    However, frankly, with something you are not mentioning in this column, if the 20 players have under 10 CP and the five have 400+? The five will likely wipe the field with them and send them crying.. THAT is how much of a difference two things would make, the CP system in place now, and the skill of the players who earned them vs new players to AvA.

    Now.. about that funnel thing.. See.. right now.. Lets assume all players equal, because ... well.. and me works.. the five SHOULD be able to defend a keep, pretty much infinitely from a group of 20, if they dont make mistakes. Guards should be strong enough to help, which would make the numbers more like 20 v 20 instead of 5 v 20. The funnel? The hole in the wall. RIght now, a nightblade or sorc and hide, then stealth/streak indefinitely around an enemy keep, killing guards one at a time, or just tying up 3-5 enemy players who cant close on him. Well, if your group is ONLY five and reliant on those guards.. you are right, you might as well hand the flags over.

    How do you effect a defense when your defenders are.. not tissue paper, but 100 year old tissue paper that got wet and has dry rot? When you hit a dude with a freaking ballista and.. he takes 5% of his health damage, if that? Defenders of keeps need some power to handle their better position, owning the keep. Right now, we are not seeing it. With skills or with seige. Heck, right now, I cant even hit the dang outer wall from inner with my bow.

    AoE caps are.. only part of the issue. A part I will address when I am not tired and headed to bed.
    Edited by Darlgon on November 25, 2015 5:30AM
    Power level to CP160 in a week:
    Where is the end game? You just played it.
    Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
    Where is new content? Sigh.
  • Galalin
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    Xsorus wrote: »
    I have to question if anyone on Zos team understands how or why aoe abilities are used?
    I'll use an example; you are worried that if you remove aoe caps aoes will be the only thing that is used.
    However you have a perfect in an example of daoc where that is not the case. People used aoes when they were supposed to be used.... When you had multiple targets. If people are spread out it makes more sense to use single target higher damage abilities then it is to spam aoe abilities. Like when I use to run into dks who'd spam nothing but elemental ring back in the day. This worked great if there multiple enemies.. However in a one vs one I usually stomped the crap out of these dks with little effort.

    In short removing aoe caps will do one thing; force people to spread out this causing more single target abilities to be used.

    Also that 5 man group in your op already has the distinct disadvantage of fighting 15 more people then them. Why add a passive damage reduction for the 20 man? Is the 15 person advantage alone not enough?

    The problem is AoE does to much damage... look at prox det its been worked into so many single target builds its just stupid.

    DK Scrub Out
    DK SCRUB OUT
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Galalin wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    I have to question if anyone on Zos team understands how or why aoe abilities are used?
    I'll use an example; you are worried that if you remove aoe caps aoes will be the only thing that is used.
    However you have a perfect in an example of daoc where that is not the case. People used aoes when they were supposed to be used.... When you had multiple targets. If people are spread out it makes more sense to use single target higher damage abilities then it is to spam aoe abilities. Like when I use to run into dks who'd spam nothing but elemental ring back in the day. This worked great if there multiple enemies.. However in a one vs one I usually stomped the crap out of these dks with little effort.

    In short removing aoe caps will do one thing; force people to spread out this causing more single target abilities to be used.

    Also that 5 man group in your op already has the distinct disadvantage of fighting 15 more people then them. Why add a passive damage reduction for the 20 man? Is the 15 person advantage alone not enough?

    The problem is AoE does to much damage... look at prox det its been worked into so many single target builds its just stupid.

    DK Scrub Out

    Prox is actually not that great in terms of single target damage; I mean it's 8 seconds before it goes off. What is good at is burst damage. Meaning you stack it with other single target abilities to perform heavy burst damage; the dps of the skill itself is just ass.. It's pairing of it with other abilities which lends to its bursting effect. Removing aoe caps
    Will not change how the ability is used in solo fights.

  • usmcjdking
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    Blanket removal AOE caps would sufficiently work to completely kill the AvA. This isn't 1.5 or 1.6 damage numbers with battle leveling. This is 2.1 where damage has just about doubled due to lack of foresight on removing caps and the absolute refusal to have damage/healing not scale exponentially out of control. This is the only reason why I am totally against their removal. Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense which makes the game unfun. When IC dropped, it was almost impossible to kill anyone in a 1v1. Good for the new players. As soon as people finished gearing out to BIS, things went downhill very, very fast.

    Until soft caps and hard caps are addressed, I am completely against the removal of AoE caps. PvP is quickly becoming a wasteland to newcomers as is because they are getting macroed back to Storhaven/Deeshan/Auridon. More blanket buffing/nerfing (Battle Spirit) will only make it worse as champion point progression continues. Same people in groups, same people in zone chat, same enemy groups running around. This does not speak well for the long-term health of the game.
    Edited by usmcjdking on November 25, 2015 5:58AM
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  • jrkhan
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    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

    Is the intention of the caps to convince large groups of players to stand directly on top of each other to exploit the damage reduction provided by AOE caps?

    Reiterating what @FENGRUSH and others have said:
    Given a large enough group in a tight enough stack, your ability to consistently hit anyone approaches 0.
    The optimal strategy for winning a fight, is to stack as many bodies as you can, on the same space.
    I'm sure this player 'formation' is also a particularly effective breading ground for server lag.

    This formation also makes single target damage very difficult because:
    It's only soft targeting - it's easy for damage to be intercepted by other players in that stack.
    We don't have a tool like 'target of target' so it's extremely difficult to actually have multiple players target the same enemy when they are in stack.

    If you want to make single target damage more effective without touching AOE caps, we need hard target locking, and we need target of target so groups can assist.

    However, I think a better route, like others have said, make groups of player spread out to avoid AOE damage. If AOE damage is doing it's job, then groups will spread out and single target abilities will have a chance to shine.

    - - -

    As far as my personal experience:
    Some times I play in groups, and I have fun in an effective group to play with.
    We'll play with 12-24 people depending on the night.
    Where we run in to trouble is 2 full enemy raid groups.
    They are using Prox Det and steel tornado. They are using Rapid Maneuvers and rotating Barriers.
    It's the same tools a slightly smaller group uses.

    This is where Fengrush analysis of smart healing vs not so smart damage comes in.
    You simply can't hope to randomly line up burst when most players are taking <50% damage.

    - - -

    I used to have fun playing solo, and using single target abilities.
    After the damage nerf it became very difficult to quickly kill anyone who was playing in a group.
    So since Imperial City was launched, I've mostly stuck to group play in Cyrodil.

    I'd like to see the 'hits 5% more for each target hit up to 5' be expanded further, and applied to other abilities.
    As it stands, a group of 5 is MOST impacted by this, since they don't benefit from the aoe cap - yet take more damage from the ability.

    Edited by jrkhan on November 25, 2015 6:15AM
  • usmcjdking
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    Smart healing is required because there is no legitimate targeting system in the game for allied players. Making it a projectile so you had to 'hit" your intended target can be done as long as it has no AOE cap so people don't get in the way of your intended target.

    Neverwinter had this problem with a skill called Healing Word which was a smart heal. Problem with a fast paced MMO is that if your intended target moved, it just missed and healed air instead. Telling your intended target to stand still so he can get healed is pretty dumb.
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  • jrkhan
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense

    I'm not sure you realize how soft caps give the train the advantage - while not really helping out the unorganized defense at all.
    The unorganized defense is usually, somewhat spread out.
    They very rarely will have more than 6 people hit by the same AOE as it stands.
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Smart healing is required because there is no legitimate targeting system in the game for allied players. Making it a projectile so you had to 'hit" your intended target can be done as long as it has no AOE cap so people don't get in the way of your intended target.

    Yes :) No one was suggesting that smart healing should go.
    Edited by jrkhan on November 25, 2015 6:29AM
  • zerosingularity
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    My Apologies if this is not 100% on topic, but it does cater to some of the main topics.

    AoE vs Single Target:

    One of the common issues in PvP is how effective AoEs are at hitting the enemy compared to single target spells. (Not Wrecking Blow, that is an awful problem because of the reduction in skill damage checks.)

    To better balance AoE vs Single Target in 1v1, 2v2, etc situations, single target skill range needs to be tweaked to be more effective compared to AoE, and those damage checks we had before reinstated in some form, the reduction in checks didn't help PvP performance, and added A LOT of grief. (Tired of WB from 20 meters away, AoE zone damage outside of said zone, etc.)

    Blob countering:

    Wouldn't it be a good idea to implement a mechanic where if you have more than x(arbitrary - but balanced) allies within y(arbitrary - balanced) meters, you have decreased armor/spell resist/healing/damage? This could be a fairly simple way to discourage heavy blob zerging, while still allowing players to group up. And it makes sense, with too many allies nearby, how would you avoid a lethal blow? Easier to dodge when you have space to do so.

    Skills that need work:

    Barrier: Easiest fix is to allow Shields to be critted, this could potentially solve much of the issues with Barrier, maybe raise the cost a little as well. (12 person limit per cast as well I think.)

    Magicka Detonation: Single target damage should be utter crap with this skill, and scale up a lot based on enemies hit, but also have the damaged reduced from having allies in the blast radius. So if there are 15 allies and 5 enemies in the blast, the damage is a joke, but if there are 5 allies and 15 enemies, the damage is very high. Might need a debuff on the players hit that makes them immune to any more Magicka Detonation damages for 1-3 seconds, to prevent further abuse.

    Purge: Allow players to have DoTs purged on them once every 1-3 seconds, like Magicka Detonation above, using a debuff tracker.

    Battle Resurrection: Just remove this completely. Templar+This+Kagrenac's Hope=Literally 2 seconds or less to resurrect an enemy/ally. That makes high pvp players way more powerful in some situations. If not removal, maybe prevent it from stacking with the Kagrenac's Hope buff in PvP and return resources to the player resurrected. (Major resurrection buff?) That might be the best way to handle it, and the additional rank could increase resources returned or something.

    AoE Caps:

    Also, Remove AoE Caps. It causes more server lag, and doesn't help the current PvP meta.

    Additional Thoughts:

    Might also want to address macro using in some fashion(hard to track, and bans never happen), like limiting animation canceling to have a minimum of the animation played before damage CAN be done. Getting 4 hits from one player in one instant is not a skill issue, and it further encourages ball groups for protection. (Which we want to avoid.) But do NOT remove animation cancelling entirely, it is a great part of ESO combat. (Just a limiter to help combat macroing and apparent macroing.)

    Additionally, though not 100% relevant, please fix the issue where when someone casts a gap closer like Teleport Strike, and afterwards someone casts a Critical Charge/Shield Charge/Focused Charge on the first player, the Teleport Strike does not go off, and they have to stand there before getting hit by the enemy gap closer.

    Some food for thought regarding siege, maybe allow siege to use the user's highest crit% for a static crit bonus. This might be broken, but might also be interesting. (With crittable shields, helps combat barrier users.)
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  • usmcjdking
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    jrkhan wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense

    I'm not sure you realize how soft caps give the train the advantage - while not really helping out the unorganized defense at all.
    The unorganized defense is usually, somewhat spread out.
    They very rarely will have more than 6 people hit by the same AOE as it stands.

    Explain to me how soft caps will further enable the pain trains?

    - Less damage done ---> Less damage taken.
    - More HP investments
    - Undergeared players capable of putting out respectable damage as well as taking a respectable amount more compared to BIS counterparts.
    - AoE spamming losing significant efficiency due to lower comparative damage and utility.
    - Weaker heals.
    - Removal of ridiculous battle spirit buff.
    - Less return from offensive champion points.

    How are any of these things bad things? I mean, my goal in what I would like to see from ESO is people from all walks of life playing and trying their best in Cyrodiil. Doesn't matter if they are old, slow, undergeared or young, quick and farmed to *** like a 6 slotted Chaos Knight. Do I want everyone to be winnders? No. But I want everyone to have an enjoyable experience.

    I personally love when a new player who I made some level 15 gear for asks me about PVP and I take them for a ride. It's becoming increasingly more difficult because they just get two-shotted and don't find it enjoyable, then leave the game before they are invested and who can blame them?
    Edited by usmcjdking on November 25, 2015 6:51AM
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  • Lexxypwns
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    Remove AoE caps for damaging abilities.

    Cap purge and barrier at 4 or 6 people, yes large raids will just run more people with purge/barrier, however, they'll be trading off DPS for heals, which is a losing battle

    Dynamic ulti gen wouldn't hurt either, though the old system was out of hand tbh
    Edited by Lexxypwns on November 25, 2015 7:00AM
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  • shugg
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    Tbh i think the aoe cap is fine its the damage thats the issue, ppl dont use them because you can be more effective with single target spells - we only have 10 slots so why take a low damage aoe.

    (Make path of shadows an aura)
  • ToRelax
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    shugg wrote: »
    Tbh i think the aoe cap is fine its the damage thats the issue, ppl dont use them because you can be more effective with single target spells - we only have 10 slots so why take a low damage aoe.

    (Make path of shadows an aura)

    People don't use AoEs? >_>
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    There needs to be no damage aoe cap, but I think the healing aoe needs a cap aswell as LOS check, im sick of having my targets healed by a healbot spamming breath of life 2 stories underneath my fight just as a routine.
    Altmer Sorceror, magicka
    Bosmer Nightblade, stamina.
    Imperial Templar, stamina
    Redguard Warden, stamina

    Aldmeri Dominion!
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