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AoE Caps Discussion

  • GreenSoup2HoT
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    The game could use some more AOE knockbacks so you could more easily pick out the enemy zerg's healer and single-target focus them down.

    There is a AoE fear that fears everyone in a 3 meter radius. To bad no one use's it.
    PS4 NA DC
  • altemriel
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    Kutsuu wrote: »
    Remember those super cool big zerg battle videos that you guys used to advertise the game?
    @Kutsuu Like the one I posted earlier? :smiley:
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Kutsuu wrote: »
    If ball-groups were at risk of being blown up by well-placed AOE, they would learn to spread out. Suddenly keep battles actually look pretty cool again with everyone spread out, and you could make more marketing videos!
    Agreed 100%.



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  • prootch
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    Yeah... lots of sheeps following their lead in this. Where you can see the majority's way of thinking is based on history of "I win" aoe stack and aoe lag spam in previous mmos (guildwars for example), not on the real interest of pvp with mono target spells. The reason why organized group choose it and make everyone lag as hell is because the aoe spells are prioritized in damage calculation, hence are more efficient. Then players stack like robots with a lead ordering maximum aoe.

    This is wrong and contrary to a more elaborate gameplay interest. We do play atm mono target spells warband against aoe lag fest of some organized groups, and get away with fun, through some basic avoidance tactics, regen and massive healing. They obviously don't like it, but it works nicely on campaign with limited lag... and yes it requires a different kind of coordination. @Wrobel please don't lead this game to be another guildwar aoe spam feast.
    Icy wrote: »
    Two points I don't THINK have been addressed (Not sure, there's a lot to read).

    1. Spamming AoE is often the only way to actually attack anything when your FPS is 10 and your ping is 999+. At least you're hitting SOMETHING. Sort this and more people will more effectively target people with single target attacks.
    2. Often people stack on crown to be within range of the healer. If you increased healer range, that's one less reason to stack.

    which is precisely why they should reduce aoe efficiency drastically:
    - aoe stack and spam is a clear cause of lag, the reason why its stacked is because its more efficient than monotarget and obviously aoe are getting priority in damage calculation. This priority can be changed additionnally to aoe damage reduction.

    - A timer on aoe spells would most certainly do the job to avoid chain aoe lag spamming as well.

    - crown stacking for heal depends on allowed healing distance, this can be also modified to allow unstacked heals, but it should be limited to the healer's group, otherwise zone healing in an alliance zerg would be made more efficient. Actually, making zone healing less efficient than limited target healing (like breath of life) would be a move torwards less aoe spaming.
    Icy wrote: »
    How do you plan to ever kill an organized group only using single target spells, without completely reworking the way healing works?

    Assist better ? there is not much skill in aoe stack spamming, a lot more in targeting healers in the melee, providing you are not wiped by brainless aoe spammers doing so. We are actually doing it atm, using surprise and tactics, groups coordination, a lot of healing and heavy regen, since the fight lasts a lot longer. Just try it. You'll see both it does lag less and people appreciate it ;)

    Limiting aoe efficiency to ultimates is the point: all other aoe should be massively nerfed to avoid aoe stack spaming and laging as hell.

    Edited by prootch on November 26, 2015 8:42AM
  • Derra
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    Sublime wrote: »
    Manoekin wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Blanket removal AOE caps would sufficiently work to completely kill the AvA. This isn't 1.5 or 1.6 damage numbers with battle leveling. This is 2.1 where damage has just about doubled due to lack of foresight on removing caps and the absolute refusal to have damage/healing not scale exponentially out of control. This is the only reason why I am totally against their removal. Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense which makes the game unfun.

    2.1 damage is down from 1.6, so don't get your point. Those groups using those AOE's already do that to unorganized defense. The unorganized defense is spread out enough that the AOE cap does not involve them at all. All the AOE cap does is make it impossible for them to damage the train coming at them.

    Yes, they added a 50% dmg reduction, but they also added new, very powerful, gear. As a result you still have about the same or higher damage as in 1.6.

    Even with everything slotted for max spelldmg on a staff build (which is in no way practical because your magica dries out way to fast) i´m still behind in dmg when comparing things to 1.6.

    I would reliably crit for 17-20k fragments in 1.6 on my sorc.
    Now with a build with kena - no sustain at all (900 mag reg) and no cost reduction i can crit for ~15k. A build with comparable sustain to my 1.6 build hit´s for about 11 to 12k on soft targets.

    While i understand most people did not like the 1.6 meta of really fast kills - I don´t think the current patch situation compares to this. The only reason why fights now are shorter than in 1.5 is the block nerf (and abilities like dawnbreaker, prox det to some extend). For me scoring a kill in a 1v1 against someone half competent was easier in 1.5 than it is now.

    About the only builds still being able to instantly kill someone revolve around stealth bonuses and camoflaged hunter or delayed ability hits with multiple abilities stringed together (also from stealth - if someone points out sorc burst i´ll say l2p - people still don´t know how curse works).
    Edited by Derra on November 26, 2015 8:55AM
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

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  • prootch
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    No wonder people dislike to be instant killed in a mmo... this is no fps.
    Any spell combination that ends up this way should see its damage reduced.
  • Derra
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    prootch wrote: »
    No wonder people dislike to be instant killed in a mmo... this is no fps.
    Any spell combination that ends up this way should see its damage reduced.

    Ever since 1.3 you could have build with infinite resources in eso. The only way to kill people was either insane amount of pressure or burst that would either instantly kill you or made it impossible to recover. Some classes lean towards pressure some towards burst.
    The possibility to kill an opponent really fast if they make a mistake has to be in the game.

    I agree that the possiblity to do so needs to be avoidable - hence why i don´t like stealth builds doing it but am fine with stamDK (wb => leap or bow heavy => leap) or sorc burst - they are designed to fight that way.
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

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  • Lava_Croft
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    While @prootch brings up valid points, I think at this point in time it won't hurt to at least try it without any meaningful caps offensive AoE abilities.

    Iterate, iterate, iterate.
    Xuth.
  • prootch
    prootch
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    Derra wrote: »
    I agree that the possiblity to do so needs to be avoidable - hence why i don´t like stealth builds doing it but am fine with stamDK (wb => leap or bow heavy => leap) or sorc burst - they are designed to fight that way.

    As far as ultimates are concerned, I don't mind: they cannot really be spammed.
    but the camo hunter multi proc on bow is the kind of gameplay killing pvp interest.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    prootch wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    I agree that the possiblity to do so needs to be avoidable - hence why i don´t like stealth builds doing it but am fine with stamDK (wb => leap or bow heavy => leap) or sorc burst - they are designed to fight that way.

    As far as ultimates are concerned, I don't mind: they cannot really be spammed.
    but the camo hunter multi proc on bow is the kind of gameplay killing pvp interest.

    100% agree on that point.
    Proxy det burst is also something i would add to that list - but that ability is not working to it´s design intentions in numerous ways i´d say.
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

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  • Xerton
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    In my opinion the best solution to all these problems is to get rid of the AoE cap and implement a internal cooldown on AoE abilities.
    So if one casts stell tornado twice within lets say 3 seconds he only deals 50% dmg, if he does again, only 25% (which should be the minimum). This would force people to actually think about, what they are doing and how to time their abilities.

    The second change i would love to see is one to Magicka Detonation: simply set its base damage to 33% of current and make the maximum bonus damage 300%.
    So the new maximum damage would be 120% of the current base dmg so almost the same maximum dmg it currently has.
    You would deal almost no damage to single targets but would get the wanted burst against groups.

    And a last change i would appreciate, is if the smart healing system would prefer targets in my group over randoms that just happen to be near me!

    Make these changes happen and i will be forever grateful!
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  • Derra
    Derra
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    Xerton wrote: »
    In my opinion the best solution to all these problems is to get rid of the AoE cap and implement a internal cooldown on AoE abilities.
    So if one casts stell tornado twice within lets say 3 seconds he only deals 50% dmg, if he does again, only 25% (which should be the minimum). This would force people to actually think about, what they are doing and how to time their abilities.


    The second change i would love to see is one to Magicka Detonation: simply set its base damage to 33% of current and make the maximum bonus damage 300%.
    So the new maximum damage would be 120% of the current base dmg so almost the same maximum dmg it currently has.
    You would deal almost no damage to single targets but would get the wanted burst against groups.

    And a last change i would appreciate, is if the smart healing system would prefer targets in my group over randoms that just happen to be near me!

    Make these changes happen and i will be forever grateful!

    This would create the problem that again having more people who can potentially use aoes in a tight space is insanely advantageous because you´d be sure to kill any enemy if you don´t die to their initial hits.
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

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  • Xerton
    Xerton
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    Derra wrote: »
    This would create the problem that again having more people who can potentially use aoes in a tight space is insanely advantageous because you´d be sure to kill any enemy if you don´t die to their initial hits.

    What's the problem of having an advantage if you outnumber your enemy? thats just how things naturlly should be.
    If 30 people run into 10 and both groups are equally skilled and no one has the advantage of surprise on their side, the 30 people should win!

    But if the 10 just outsmart those 30 and get to suprise them, they sould and will have a fair chance to get them.

    So i can't see a problem there
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  • Sublime
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    Seems like my memory served me wrongly regarding 1.7 vs 1.6 damage numbers.

    As for @prootch s suggestion, it might work at in the first few days. After that players would start to bodyblock and use guard (could be removed), which pretty much makes it impossible to focus a specific player (without reimplementing the old tab-targeting). Apart from that it would require extremely high burst, as most templars have an easy way to get rid of healing debuffs, which would basically result in an FPS style of play as soon as you don't have a group around you. Personally I think there are already to many one-shot combos around.

    What I'd also like to point out is, that group vs group combat is a lot about who gets the first strike. Beaning that even though a group might be spamming AOE's in order to kill any incoming player, well-timed attacks in combination with CC would still be able to kill them, despite being heavily outnumbered.
    Edited by Sublime on November 26, 2015 11:22AM
  • Docmandu
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    Sorry, but posts like these don't add anything useful to this discussion.. if there's 2 million people playing the game, that 3.5k is a laughable amount.

    That said.. I don't want AoE caps.. but I do want falloff on AoE damage.
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
    Community Ambassador
    prootch wrote: »
    Aoe cap removal would not spread multi warbands... it would only make things worse, encouraging organized groups to stack massive aoe damage to instant kill any opposition.
    [...]
    Suppressing aoe cap would only encourage these 24 players spamballs to pack more people in order to outdamage other 24 players aoe spamballs. We already face multi warbands full detonation + steel tornadoe spam: they are instantly creating massive lag in the process.
    This was one of the reasons behind my suggestion of increasing damage for more targets hit by an AoE. If you're an organised group of 24, you would do more damage against a spamball group of 60.
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
  • Docmandu
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    Derra wrote: »
    I would reliably crit for 17-20k fragments in 1.6 on my sorc.
    Now with a build with kena - no sustain at all (900 mag reg) and no cost reduction i can crit for ~15k. A build with comparable sustain to my 1.6 build hit´s for about 11 to 12k on soft targets.

    Since many people run with around 21k HP.. that means you needed 2 frags in 1.6.. but funny thing is.. if you do 11-12 or 15k now.. that means it still takes just 2 frags :smile:
  • Derra
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    Xerton wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    This would create the problem that again having more people who can potentially use aoes in a tight space is insanely advantageous because you´d be sure to kill any enemy if you don´t die to their initial hits.

    What's the problem of having an advantage if you outnumber your enemy? thats just how things naturlly should be.
    If 30 people run into 10 and both groups are equally skilled and no one has the advantage of surprise on their side, the 30 people should win!

    But if the 10 just outsmart those 30 and get to suprise them, they sould and will have a fair chance to get them.

    So i can't see a problem there

    With your approach that would not be the case as you still need multiple casts per person with aoe to kill the 30 ppl. Even if you outsmart them a dmg dropoff of 50% after the first cast would be even worse than the caps we have now.
    Edited by Derra on November 26, 2015 11:56AM
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

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  • Sublime
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    Derra wrote: »
    That poll (if we believe ppl voting are random enough to not be entirely biased - which is the only thing you could argue about) is representative for a population of just about 2.5 million players with an error margin of ~2% and a certainty of 99%.

    Out of curiousity (and because I don't get it xD), why?
    Edited by Sublime on November 26, 2015 11:58AM
  • Xerton
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    Derra wrote: »
    Xerton wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    This would create the problem that again having more people who can potentially use aoes in a tight space is insanely advantageous because you´d be sure to kill any enemy if you don´t die to their initial hits.

    What's the problem of having an advantage if you outnumber your enemy? thats just how things naturlly should be.
    If 30 people run into 10 and both groups are equally skilled and no one has the advantage of surprise on their side, the 30 people should win!

    But if the 10 just outsmart those 30 and get to suprise them, they sould and will have a fair chance to get them.

    So i can't see a problem there

    With your approach that would not be the case as you still need multiple casts per person with aoe to kill the 30 ppl. Even if you outsmart them a dmg dropoff of 50% after the first cast would be even worse than the caps we have now.

    Why? There are plenty of skills one could use, but doesn't as he does not have to. This way people would have to rethink their strategy and actually use something else then steal tornado all the time. I mean it definitly can't be the intention of the game, that people should simply use one skill all the time. Atm there is no reason at all for stamina players to use any other dmg skill when in a group!
    And actually when you think about it: the total dmg dealt to a group of at least 12 Players would still be almost the same as with AoE caps, so it does not make things worse!
    It just brings most people out of their comfort zone of not having to think at all and just smash one button all the time over and over again.
    Edited by Xerton on November 26, 2015 12:11PM
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  • Derra
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    Xerton wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Xerton wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    This would create the problem that again having more people who can potentially use aoes in a tight space is insanely advantageous because you´d be sure to kill any enemy if you don´t die to their initial hits.

    What's the problem of having an advantage if you outnumber your enemy? thats just how things naturlly should be.
    If 30 people run into 10 and both groups are equally skilled and no one has the advantage of surprise on their side, the 30 people should win!

    But if the 10 just outsmart those 30 and get to suprise them, they sould and will have a fair chance to get them.

    So i can't see a problem there

    With your approach that would not be the case as you still need multiple casts per person with aoe to kill the 30 ppl. Even if you outsmart them a dmg dropoff of 50% after the first cast would be even worse than the caps we have now.

    Why? There are plenty of skills one could use, but doesn't as he does not have to. This way people would have to rethink their strategy and actually use something else then steal tornado all the time. I mean it definitly can't be the intention of the game, that people should simply use one skill all the time. Atm there is no reason at all for stamina players to use any other dmg skill when in a group!
    And actually when you think about it: the total dmg dealt to a group of at least 12 Players would still be almost the same as with AoE caps, so it does not make things worse!
    It just brings most people out of their comfort zone of not having to think at all and just smash one button all the time over and over again.

    When you consider that When you engage with 8 vs 24 you would need atleast 1 aoe of every person in the 8 man grp to break the first barrier of the 24 man grp - the next aoe afterwards dmging the HP would already have a 50% dmg penalty.

    It would make breaking larger grps with a smaller one in an ambush even harder than it is now. You often times need 3 to 5 aoe casts anyway.

    What would happen is:

    Large grp build use 3 different aoes instead of 1:

    Steeltornado => Drain Power => Bombard without dropoff in dmg.

    The people running builds with only one aoe in them would be screwed bc all your change did way enforce builds with vaible aoe dmg to have atleast three different aoes slotted (apart from the problem that certain classes can´t even do that).
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

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  • Xerton
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    Derra wrote: »
    When you consider that When you engage with 8 vs 24 you would need atleast 1 aoe of every person in the 8 man grp to break the first barrier of the 24 man grp - the next aoe afterwards dmging the HP would already have a 50% dmg penalty.

    It would make breaking larger grps with a smaller one in an ambush even harder than it is now. You often times need 3 to 5 aoe casts anyway.

    What would happen is:

    Large grp build use 3 different aoes instead of 1:

    Steeltornado => Drain Power => Bombard without dropoff in dmg.

    The people running builds with only one aoe in them would be screwed bc all your change did way enforce builds with vaible aoe dmg to have atleast three different aoes slotted (apart from the problem that certain classes can´t even do that).

    Ok i get your point, maybe a 50% dmg drop is a bit to much, but the general idea still seems to be a good one for me. It certainly should not affect every AoE in the game and should propably be part of the Cyrodiil debuff one gets.

    Punctoring Strikes and all its morphs for examply should not be affected by this change. Or to be more general only AoE from Weapon skill lines should be, but not all of them.
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  • Derra
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    Xerton wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    When you consider that When you engage with 8 vs 24 you would need atleast 1 aoe of every person in the 8 man grp to break the first barrier of the 24 man grp - the next aoe afterwards dmging the HP would already have a 50% dmg penalty.

    It would make breaking larger grps with a smaller one in an ambush even harder than it is now. You often times need 3 to 5 aoe casts anyway.

    What would happen is:

    Large grp build use 3 different aoes instead of 1:

    Steeltornado => Drain Power => Bombard without dropoff in dmg.

    The people running builds with only one aoe in them would be screwed bc all your change did way enforce builds with vaible aoe dmg to have atleast three different aoes slotted (apart from the problem that certain classes can´t even do that).

    Ok i get your point, maybe a 50% dmg drop is a bit to much, but the general idea still seems to be a good one for me. It certainly should not affect every AoE in the game and should propably be part of the Cyrodiil debuff one gets.

    Punctoring Strikes and all its morphs for examply should not be affected by this change. Or to be more general only AoE from Weapon skill lines should be, but not all of them.

    Well then you´d have only NBs running around - they get a stamina stamina morph aoe with 8m range as a classskill. Maybe templars too because jabs is still insanely strong when it does not hit shields.

    Wouldn´t reworking steeltornado be better as it wouldn´t require as much effort?
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  • hrothbern
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    Crown wrote: »
    I'm curious how difficult it would be to remove the AoE caps on the coding side.
    Why not make a 7-day campaign to test PvP changes like this?

    agree with something along those lines

    The total PVP system is highly complex. Too complex to grasp in its entirety in some lines.
    Drastic changes to "solve all at once" run the risk of unforeseen bad effects.
    Small step changes run the risk that too many players lose their enthusiasm for PVP.


    Your logic, @Wrobel , sounds ok.... but it did not work ! The thought you throw in now looks high level plausible again, but I am afraid that what really happens in Cyrodill is too complex to grasp in high level logic and models. Too many secundary effects. Too many loopholes, within the rules, that people will find.

    Your post, @FENGRUSH , makes a lot of sense to me. But would you gamble the ownership of your family house on it. Change all with your proposal, with one throw of the dices. And if it fails you lose your house ?

    That's why I would favor the idea of @Crown , for an immediate playing ground, in a real 7 day campaign, and test out. Fast.
    Perhaps more than one testing ground because of the so many good ideas of the comments made by people. For example: One campaign with simply the AOE cap removed. Another campaign with a more sophisticated approach. Double the AP gained to get it crowded.


    BTW
    @wrobel, you did not mention LAG in your OP.... AND you sticked to a capped AOE in your base proposal. Many, myself including, believe that the AOE cap contributes to the LAG....
    Does that mean that you can allow the calculatory complex approach with AOE caps, because you are confident enough that the lag will be adressed in another way?

    The reason I mention it here is that whatever logic we discuss here about how it should be.... Lag is generating many secundary effects in crowded combat, that affect heavily anything that looks nice on the drawing table.


    Edited by hrothbern on November 26, 2015 1:10PM
    "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
    Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
    I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".
  • remedios17
    remedios17
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    The problem is that many people including the devs do not understand the main argument against aoe caps.
    Which is bigger groups already have an advantage through their number: more heal, more dmg, more ultis to use etc etc on the other hand smaller groups EVEN if they are skillful players and know how to play they have less heals, less dmg less ulti to use and on TOP of that the bigger group get additional dmg reduction aginst them via AOE caps and that is the main problem.

    Those who want the removal of AOE caps they do not want to vipe 60 man with 5-12 they want fair chances against higher numbers. (atm number>>>>>>skill)

    And tbh I think 5 people should be able to wipe 24 man groups IF that group containts clueless monkeys who were told to ahh just use this and that and spam spam spam spam. (Just go to any video portal and watch some videos where skilled players just melt scrubs. This is how it should be and those scrubs need to get better and learn the mechanics.)(If your group of 24 got destroyed to the ground by 5-8 players you should look into your skills and group set up rather then calling for nerfs or blaming the game mechanics imo.)

    On the other hand these little groups will not stand a chance against competent and good big groups which contains skilled and not clueless players because those know how to react and will kill them.

    On the technical side (I do not know anything about programming and server-client connection) but this AOE cap contains a lot of calculations imo ohh u hit that one with 100% the other 10 with 50% the other 30 with 25% dmg when to zerg collide the latency SKYROCKETS due to this calculations perhaps (pls tell me if I'm wrong) with removal calculations would be u hit 24 targets with X dmg end of story. So prolly would help with the lag as well.

    My final opinion is caps should be removed and addition to the removal AOE skills need to be looked into stamina(steel tornade)>magicka(impulse).
    Impluse was nerfed from 8m to 6m while steel tornade is 11m which IS for an AOE is laugable either change both to 8m range or keep steel at 11m if u want but then to bring it on pair with impluse (a little bit) unnerf that 6m back to 8m imo.

    Side note: deep breath should hit 6 targets (after all the nerfs the heal is a joke :D :D )like sap essence
    Edited by remedios17 on November 26, 2015 12:53PM
    Guildmaster of the Order of the Magna Ge - social guild EP EU with 200+ members from all levels, all over the world, forming a nice relaxed, friendly - and a bit crazy - community - check us out at orderofthemagnage.guildlaunch.com or whisper me in game.
  • Rune_Relic
    Rune_Relic
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    Derra wrote: »
    Docmandu wrote: »

    Sorry, but posts like these don't add anything useful to this discussion.. if there's 2 million people playing the game, that 3.5k is a laughable amount.

    That said.. I don't want AoE caps.. but I do want falloff on AoE damage.

    You don´t understand anything about polls and when they become representative do you?

    That poll (if we believe ppl voting are random enough to not be entirely biased - which is the only thing you could argue about) is representative for a population of just about 2.5 million players with an error margin of ~2% and a certainty of 99%.

    You could add that many of that 2.5 million you came up with are/were most likely not pvping anyway and in no way affected by caps therefor mostlikely did not bother to vote.
    Out of questionable polls you find plenty of - this is not one you can really argue about.
    Docmandu wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    I would reliably crit for 17-20k fragments in 1.6 on my sorc.
    Now with a build with kena - no sustain at all (900 mag reg) and no cost reduction i can crit for ~15k. A build with comparable sustain to my 1.6 build hit´s for about 11 to 12k on soft targets.

    Since many people run with around 21k HP.. that means you needed 2 frags in 1.6.. but funny thing is.. if you do 11-12 or 15k now.. that means it still takes just 2 frags :smile:

    On anyone with an armor buff not wearing entirely paper towels frags are between 6 and 9k nowadays. The high hits are extreme examples that occur nowhere as regularly as they did in 1.6.

    People voted a certain German into power too before a certain war started.
    What does that say about polls ?
    People can be wrong and still be the majority.

    There is a saying here...give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves.
    I know removing AoE caps will mean the server will instantly crash the 1st time players try to take down a large ball group.
    If the servers cant cope with a 60 man cap, there is no way they will cope with no cap.
    But 1vX and destroying Ball groups appears to be far more important than server performance.

    But I am happy to give you guys as much rope as you like ;)
    But don't ever think you speak for everyone when you say AoE caps should be removed.
    I can only hope that if/when you get your way, ZOS will undo the damage quickly.
    Alas, the 60 people cap with diminishing returns does not bode well for the undoing damage done front.
    So remember to turn the lights out when everyone else has left.

    That's directed at everyone demanding AoE cap removal... not you personally.
    You think removing AoE caps will kill off the ball groups.
    I know from past experience they will adapt and overcome.
    Then you will know how bad server performance can really get.
    Edited by Rune_Relic on November 26, 2015 1:58PM
    Anything that can be exploited will be exploited
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