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AoE Caps Discussion

  • Moglijuana
    Moglijuana
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    Ishammael wrote: »
    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    <snip>

    Fengrush covered most of the details. Agree completely with his assessment. I'm going to hit the issue from a different angle.

    First: Purge and barrier are not core issues. How they interact with game mechanics is the issue.

    Premise: AoE caps, ultimate generation, and skill balance are completely inter-twinned.

    The following characteristics define the current group meta in ESO:
    1. Coordinated Prox Det
    2. Rotating Barriers
    3. Steel Tornado for absurd AoE damage scaling (execute bonus damage, bonus damage vs CC'd target)
    4. Ultimates for AoE crowd control (Nova, meteor, Banner, leap) and to add bonus damage to ST.
    5. Rotating rapid maneuvers to keep the group moving.

    This meta exists because:
    1. AoE caps artificially reduce damage to large groups.
    2. Barrier creates a huge damage shield on 24 people.
    3. Heals automatically target lowest-health players. Damage does not.
    4. Feature (1) and (2) and (3) couple together: 20k+ shield on 24 people (not crit-able), with >50% damage reduction beyond 6, heals automatically target the players that get hit with damage!!!!!!
    6. Therefore an opposing group must put out enormous BURST damage in order to wipe the entire group before they react (i.e. pop a barrier, which will save an entire raid by itself). Hence, Prox det and coordinated ultimate.

    Considerations: AoE caps and dynamic ultimate interplay. Pre patch 1.6 dynamic ultimate enabled small groups to consistently wipe large groups via smart play. Ultimate gain was the equalizing dynamic -- the more people engaged, the faster i could gain ultimate. The cost was risk: I had to be able to survive against much larger numbers. AoE caps were somewhat sensible in this case because ultimate generation was based on how many players were hit, criticals, and so forth. HOWEVER, balance changes could have scaled ultimate generation better while enabling the ability to uncap AoE.

    Current situation: static ultimate generation means that the large group ALWAYS has more ultimate available than a smaller group. When added to the AoE cap, this gives the large group an artificial, unfair playing advantage. The large group already has the advantage of numbers and the ability to prepare a larger number of ultimates for an initial use.

    I've already touched on skill balance. AoE removal requires consideration of all skills as they stand. The changes required for these skills are different depending on the AoE cap mechanic, whether or not dynamic ultimate stays, and so forth. For example, barrier is much less of a problem without AoE caps.

    Finally, can you comment on the performance consideration of AoE caps? The meta as I've described it absolutely destroys servers and the ability to have fun. Changes which break this up are important.

    ^^ What they said
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  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
    Community Ambassador
    Turelus wrote: »
    I don't agree with the idea of inverting the caps. This is just going from one side to the other in favour of who should be winning fights.
    My basis for that suggestion was that currently, the larger your group is, the less likely you are to take damage because of the existing cap mechanic mitigating damage to larger groups. If the caps were just outright removed, then being in a large blob no longer helps for defensive purposes, but also doesn't encourage use of single-target over AoE, which is something Wrobel wants to promote. A blob would still spam AoEs against a small group instead of using single-target, which would neither improve the lag issues nor create a fun playstyle for the small group. Reducing damage for the first 6 enemies hit by an AoE makes the single-target more favourable in that situation, making gameplay for the small group more fun. A larger group would still have the advantage over a smaller group, but an inverted cap would give the smaller group a bit more of a chance.

    @tinythinker 's Scenario A sums this up quite well:
    A 24-player or fewer group meets a 24-player or fewer group. They try spamming AoE, but, at best those abilities are doing half damage. If one group is 6 players or smaller, they are only taking 25% damage. If the smaller group is going against a group larger than 6, they can actually hit harder with their own AoE. Yes, numbers still favor the over-6 group but not because they can just AoE-spam the smaller group to death. If the 6 players are very skilled versus a bunch of neophytes, they can still win.
    Edited by Enodoc on November 25, 2015 3:04PM
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  • Kutsuu
    Kutsuu
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    Docmandu wrote: »
    If those 20 stand on the same pixel, they SHOULD die to the 5 that rush in and AOE bomb them!!! Worked perfectly fine in daoc, where zergs knew they had to spread out on inc.

    This this this!

    @Wrobel I feel that you may be pandering too much to a mindless/lemming style of play which is not enjoyable to most PVP players. The "good" raid groups in daoc would always disperse on inc and completely nullify bomb groups trying to kill them. The ones who just used /stick on the leader and had no situational awareness got bombed and learned the lesson of hard knocks. There *should* be strategy in pvp, even for huge groups. They *should* worry about choke points and bunching up. The current situation with AOE caps makes it so players are actually safer if they bunch up in a tiny ball of large numbers. This creates an undesirable situation for everyone involved because you end up with these huge lag inducing balls of players all standing on one point spamming abilities. It's not fun to be in the ball, but it's not fun to get melted because you weren't in the safety of the ball. It's a catch 22 and if you want to siege with the raid group, you end up HAVING to sit in the ball.

    I mean you put mechanics in dungeons that will kill players if they do a certain thing, and expect them to learn to avoid that in order to succeed... but a PVP mechanic (AOEs) threatens people who bunch up and have no situational awareness, and instead of letting them learn their lesson you make it easier for them to bunch up and have no situational awareness. What's the deal with that?

    You claim that AOEs having no target cap would make single target skills useless... How? If your enemy is *not* bunched up into a blob, the AOEs will only hit so many people... for less damage per hit than single target. You're increasing the use of single target attacks by forcing people to spread out due to the risk of AOE bombs.

    As another point, think about this from a marketing perspective. Remember those super cool big zerg battle videos that you guys used to advertise the game? If ball-groups were at risk of being blown up by well-placed AOE, they would learn to spread out. Suddenly keep battles actually look pretty cool again with everyone spread out, and you could make more marketing videos!
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  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
    Community Ambassador
    Kutsuu wrote: »
    Remember those super cool big zerg battle videos that you guys used to advertise the game?
    @Kutsuu Like the one I posted earlier? :smiley:
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Kutsuu wrote: »
    If ball-groups were at risk of being blown up by well-placed AOE, they would learn to spread out. Suddenly keep battles actually look pretty cool again with everyone spread out, and you could make more marketing videos!
    Agreed 100%.
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  • SorataArisugawa
    SorataArisugawa
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    The purpose of AOE skills is simple: it is to give one player an utility to fight against a group of players.

    The problem with AOE in ESO is that there is no friendly fire and large groups are using AOE with no negative consequences.
    In a real world environment an AOE skill is inflicting damage not only to enemies but to allies as well if not placed properly.
    Of course you cannot implement friendly fire in ESO. But you can add a debuff to an AOE ability for each friendly unit hit. It has to be calculated that a bigger group will always hit harder with their combined AOE abilities but not by much. So the group of 5 people will not get evaporated instantly by a group of 20.

    Add a debuff to healing as well instead of capping when healing big groups.
    This way the AOE heals and AOE damage of large groups will always be stronger if compared to small groups but not by much.

    With the current AOE cap you punish drastically those small groups.

    Cheers!

    Best idea that I heard so far. With that Groups have to spread or use single target spells and abilities. Great idea!
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  • Joy_Division
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    Bashev wrote: »
    As far as Magicka Detonation, well, this was our promised replacement for our beloved Ground Oils and the votes are in: it's a stinker. Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, how about you make it so magicka detonation follows the already proven zerg-busting function of Ground Oils? If you made it so the caster was immobile, had a cast time, a produced a large AOE fast ticking Dot, many of us would be happy Cyrodiil campers as it would solve several problems.
    I think it will be better if they bring back ground oils than the skill that you proposed because you cannot stack oils on the same location. Can you imagine 5-6 people using this skill stacked and 3-4 people just spamming heals. Everything what gets inside will melt down (As you said not like wall of elements melt down).

    Can anyone remind me why ZoS removed ground oils? Was it because people can use it next to keeps and use the siege limit? If that was the reason they just can remove the oils from the siege limit counter.

    I didn't think of that. Basically I'm trying to get back a functionality we know helped cyrodiil and remove one we know doesn't in on fell swoop.

    They got rid of ground oils because some people's immersion was deemed more important than Cyrodiil's meta.
  • Zheg
    Zheg
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    Etaniel wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    @Wrobel , I hope you timed this thread creation with the intention of having mass amounts of pumpkin pie to gorge on and get through the angry posts (that are mostly warranted, to be fair...).

    I truly don't think removing the aoe cap is going to have as pronounced an effect as has been sold to the general playerbase by a few well known names, but on that same vein of thought, I don't see too much harm in removing the aoe cap. The biggest concern I would want to see addressed if the aoe cap is removed are added measures to prevent group v group fights from being over even quicker than they already are. Lag permitting, most group v group fights come down to who gets their own bomb off successfully and can wipe the entire (or a large percentage of the) opposing group in one shot. If those fights are already over in literally <4 seconds, and the aoe caps are already in place to mitigate damage, their removal will make those fights even shorter because the bombs will be bigger. I know a few small-group minded players salivate at that thought, but I've always preferred long drawn out battles where sides clash and have chances to regroup, maneuver, and strategize DURING a fight. Most of our meta is already bomb and done, and I'd very much prefer to not see pvp go even further down that path. I know some of the small groupers want to be able to run into a juicy stack of players with <=4 of their own and blow everyone up in a second with ulti and aoe, but at that point it comes down to ego and wanting to be able to brag about kill counts rather than promoting a pvp environment focused on actual fighting with counters, strategy, LOS, terrain, etc. If I wanted to oneshot people, I'd play an FPS. I want tactical pvp fights with skills and sets that allow me to counter some builds and be weak to other builds, with fights that last long enough for all players to react and put up a fight. As fun as it is to stealth one-shot a vampire using the ridiculous mechanics of camo hunter, if all of pvp was like that it'd be boring as hell and people would spend more time on their horses (or in fact, running, because of the stuck in combat bug -_-) than actually fighting. Being blown up by prox det, ults, and aoe even quicker than the current meta does not sound like healthy or fun pvp.

    Call me crazy, but I want pvp to be about actually fighting other players, not blowing them up in 2 seconds so they can ride back on their mount, or being blown up myself in 2 seconds so I can ride back.

    Anyway, aoe caps don't make sense as an artificial limiter, but their removal would require (imo) mechanic changes to make sure aoes don't just melt everybody now. A strong prox det + ult combined with someone else's ult and a steel tornado can obliterate most players' health bar, and I'd don't see it as a healthy thing for the meta to shift even more towards a buff and bomb mentality. PLEASE be wary of that, as I don't think you're going to be able to placate the playerbase unless you remove the aoe caps - they've been whipped into such a frenzy over this you really don't have an alternative. Just make sure the aoe caps are removed responsibly so that TTK is not even shorter that it currently is for group v group fights.

    Half of your post makes sense, the other half doesnt.
    You don't want group fights to end faster than they already do, I agree, group fights are for the most part boring atm, it's whoever has the biggest bomb impact wins. removing aoe caps will make it even faster, yes. But that's only if groups keep playing the way they do, with crown stacking being the prominent strategy.

    you want "tactical pvp fights with skills and sets that allow me to counter some builds and be weak to other builds", and that is just not part of large group play I'm sorry. Group play requires group focused builds, and not builds that focus on countering what your enemy is using atm.

    If group think a bit, removal of aoe caps will make them spread out when they are being engaged by a bomb group, rendering the bomb group's aoe useless, and they'll work from there.

    That's not entirely true. A magicka NB dps focusing on sap essence as a group build will struggle against groups that have high numbers of steel tornado. Regardless of what people who don't actually participate in group v group fights assume, most of the time the stacking happens for the initial bomb, and players then begin to focus on targets in smaller clusters because any smart player will have scattered when they see prox det circles, novas, and negates all in one spot. Group v group players also have to fight on their own/in small groups a good portion of the night (whether caught on back line, caught on siege, scouting, etc.). I was talking in generalities of something like - light armor beats heavy, heavy beats medium, medium beats light. Kag's hope beats people that aren't running a fun set that pulses interrupts but has little in terms of damage buffs.

    If the goal is to make it so that no one ever stacks up ever again, how is that any different than a bunch of pugs running around in a cluster****? Groups still need to be able to condense and move as a unit, otherwise it just becomes a ganker's paradise where everyone is spread out and able to be ganked in <2 seconds from stealth. What's that? You want the group to move out to roebeck because it's burst and you need to get their quickly to defend? Let's all trickle in one at a time so we don't cluster and get oneshotted by a 2 man groups ult dump, and have a backline that spans the distance between the two keeps to provide ample opportunity for gank groups. I'm exaggerating here, but that doesn't sound very fun or functional. Cyrodiil is designed for group v group fights, people with an abhorrence for groups need to realize that you cannot eliminate groups and still have a functional cyrodiil. Removing artificial limitations is certainly justified, but if the goal is to prevent people from ever being able to condense because now 2 people can wipe an entire group with prox det and ult, I can promise you that it won't be healthy pvp - regardless of what some insist. If that ends up being the meta, the current large groups could just run in small, balanced clusters and just spread their aoe out to an ever wider area if it's going to hit that much harder. If you need a visual reference, think about the lightning clock mechanic in white gold tower molag kena fight where it's just a line of high damage rather than a single red circle.

    All I'm asking for is that when aoe caps are removed, measures are put into place to make sure the TTK isn't stupidly low in group v group fights. That should be a perfectly reasonable and warranted request. Anyone being honest and realistic in this debate will realize that the whole point of cyrodiil is supposed to be map objectives, and there is literally no way to be inside the inner keep and not condensed in some fashion.

    Edit: I'd also like to correct the fallacies from your post regarding "Group play requires group focused builds, and not builds that focus on countering what your enemy is using atm". I remember a time when our group ran 99% of our members as vampires and back when Nexus was still around, they shifted almost all of their dps ults to dawnbreaker for a smart tactical advantage. Back on red VE, I heard stories of when our crew ran heavy dmg prox leaps on magicka dk's, but the steel tornado meta emerged and our crew needed more physical damage dps to be efficient and provide a counter. These are the kinds of things should be present in pvp - your crew wants to run all vamp for mist form and bats so they have good mitigation when needed and high heals and dps when bombing from bats? Cool, but now you're weak to a group running dawnbreakers. You want to run dawnbreakers to counter vamp groups? Cool, but now maybe you're weak to negate heavy groups or something. This is the kind of pvp meta that should be encouraged from ZOS, we just don't have enough good options to implement it at the moment. You can still allow for a group's focus to counter another group's focus, and be weak to third group's focus. I'd love to see a meta where something isn't so clearly the best and everyone needs to run that.
    Edited by Zheg on November 25, 2015 4:33PM
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  • Kwivur
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    I think there should be more areas to take, like towns and the small areas in between keeps. Make these smaller objectives a necessity to take the keep. Also, reduce the amount of people allowed in a group to say 10. This would give officers in a guild a more centralized role in cyrodiil too. Then once the smaller objectives are taken (and don't make it easy), then the crown and officers meet at the keep for the final stage. More objectives with smaller groups would give a tactical approach, which would utilize more resources, thus thinning the numbers to accomplish a singular goal. THE KEEP!! Also remove AoE caps.
  • MrGrimey
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    So the 20 people fighting the 5 people don't have to worry about their damage being capped... Why should the 5 people being outnumbered by the 20 people have to worry about their damage being capped?

    Makes no sense, the 20 already have the advantage in numbers, the have more healers, dps, barriers, can afford to have someone running rapid, 20 ultimates. WHY SHOULD THEY ALSO HAVE GAME MECHANICS HELPING THEM OUT?

    The max AOE hits 11 meters, to discourage this ball group meta, aoe caps need to be removed 100%. There should not be more than 6 players in a 11 meter radius, and if there are, they should be punished for balling up. Anything else would just cause players to continue to stack up on each other.

    Oh, and if aoe caps are removed, then players will have to spread out, therefore making single target abilities relevant and useful again and AOE not the end all be all like it is right now.

    As for proxy det. Keep base damage, but increase damage by 10% for every player hit
    Edited by MrGrimey on November 25, 2015 5:22PM
  • Recremen
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    For my own experience, the issue is that the number of players disproportionately increases a group's survivability compared to actions associated with high "skill", such as casting abilities in a timely manner, out maneuvering to take advantage of Line of Sight, etc., and having a strong build that synergizes with your group. It's fine that the number of players gives a type of advantage, but I believe that advantage should simply be their contribution to healing, DPS, and support abilities, not a flat damage reduction that occurs by the property of literally standing there and existing. Many times I will see people in a large group get completely frazzled by the chaos of a large fight and just stop what they're doing, but they still contribute enormously to the fight by just being on the AoE stack. My feeling is that this should not occur. If a quarter of your group is ill-prepared for the pressure of a large battle, there should be a corresponding decrease in your ability to win fights compared to the expected result, had everyone been using skills or doing absolutely anything at all. Instead, they can just stand there motionless and suppress huge amounts of damage across multiple characters. If AoE caps were removed, they'd have to be healing or shielding for more than is possible in order to contribute the same amount as just standing there in the current game build.

    So to get a little more specific, in situations where you are fighting 40 people with 24, if the 40-person group gets bombed on (that is to say: taken by complete surprise while your team full-on DPSes them), the expectation is that the 40-person group will lose. By and large, this has not been observed. The problem doesn't come from someone casting Barrier or Healing Springs too fast. In fact, that is generally considered a smart move, the people doing those things are skilled and contributing to their team properly. The people not reacting are not skilled, are not playing well, but they are still contributing to their team thanks to AoE caps. So if your whole group of 24 is using AoE skills during that bomb, they might hit one of the skilled players for full damage, or they might hit one of the unskilled players for full damage, but every skilled player in the 40-person group is guaranteed to be hitting one of your skilled players for full damage. For me, this is not the desired outcome.

    While specific abilities in those situations are not the problem, it may be beneficial to look at tweaking certain under-performing AoE abilities in any case. In particular, non-radial AoE abilities, such as those with a cone effect or line effect, seem categorically inferior and not worth slotting. These shouldn't even be tweaked up at this point, they should be buffed mighty hard, assuming radial AoE stay the same. They don't hit nearly as many people in a typical AoE situation, so lining up a good strike on multiple targets should produce a much more dramatic effect. Take a hard look at skills like Cleave, Wall of Elements, Burning Breath, and the like.
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  • Draxys
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    Keep purge the way it is but implement the purge bug as an actual feature :)
    2013

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  • Cryhavoc
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    What @FENGRUSH said covers everything, no need for much more than that.

    Here is what I envision as a meta in PvP:

    A playing field in PvP where a small group (2-12) has a chance to fight off a larger group (18+) using seige, the environment, skill, choke points, etc. Obviously, 2 people should not realistically defend a keep against 18, but a group of 6 should have a chance. There should be a reason for a smaller group to pull commando raids on a larger group.

    I remember the days when 8 person groups in DAOC always had a purpose.

    I will leave the math up to the developers.
  • Sublime
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Blanket removal AOE caps would sufficiently work to completely kill the AvA. This isn't 1.5 or 1.6 damage numbers with battle leveling. This is 2.1 where damage has just about doubled due to lack of foresight on removing caps and the absolute refusal to have damage/healing not scale exponentially out of control. This is the only reason why I am totally against their removal. Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense which makes the game unfun. When IC dropped, it was almost impossible to kill anyone in a 1v1. Good for the new players. As soon as people finished gearing out to BIS, things went downhill very, very fast.

    Until soft caps and hard caps are addressed, I am completely against the removal of AoE caps. PvP is quickly becoming a wasteland to newcomers as is because they are getting macroed back to Storhaven/Deeshan/Auridon. More blanket buffing/nerfing (Battle Spirit) will only make it worse as champion point progression continues. Same people in groups, same people in zone chat, same enemy groups running around. This does not speak well for the long-term health of the game.

    To summarize (and avoid misunderstandings), you are basically the opinion that a removal of AOE caps would be good against bombsquads, but against unorganized players it would be way too OP as they do not exploit defensive skills as much as organized groups do.

    What do you think of the following suggestion, in terms of AOE caps?:

    Reduce the radius of all AOE's to 5m alongside removing the AOE cap. This should make sure that it's very hard to hit a lot of unorganized players with a single AOE, but the effectiveness against organized groups would be very high as they tend to be very clustered.
    Zheg wrote: »
    Regardless of what people who don't actually participate in group v group fights assume, most of the time the stacking happens for the initial bomb, and players then begin to focus on targets in smaller clusters because any smart player will have scattered when they see prox det circles, novas, and negates all in one spot. Group v group players also have to fight on their own/in small groups a good portion of the night (whether caught on back line, caught on siege, scouting, etc.).

    As somebody who played and theorycrafted raid (24-man) PvP since beta, I strongly disagree. The lost effectiveness of AOE heals, purges and barrier makes spreading out extremely punishing, up to an extent where it is almost never desirable. On top of that you loose the mitigation provided by AOE caps, which can be up to 37,5%. Apart from that you do have to defend yourself from time to time, but this most of the times can either be tracked down to bad gameplay, or be dealt with using one or two defensive skills. Single target attacks are only BiS once a fight is over, but then they are usually not even worth the slot, as you heavily outnumber your opponent anyway.
  • jim_mau
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    im not skilled at pvp, so i cant add much as far as played experience, exploits etc

    but id like to add a point of view, a bit more macro than the issue at hand, nevertheless relevant.

    large scale pvp = big fights, as in real WAR as it is named. (lag and performance aside)

    Now with this mindset i also add to the point of the post, aoe caps. In general, strategy always points to not standing in the fire, but if my group can stand at a door, resist oil (or any other AoE) and not move at all, it defeats the purpuse of casting it, and will have more effectiveness at single target. Even more so if i dont hit everything in the AoE cast.

    PVE RAPES with NPC AoE (sweeper bosses in IC im looking at you) if you dont move from the red circle thingy, this must hold true to PVP. In PVP for example, a well placed Take Flight / Ice comet should set up an AoE kill of a large group with few defenders attacking (read: strategy), the fact that they are clumped should punish that group making them vulnerable to AoE. On the other hand if i attack 2 dudes with an AoE, dodgeroll and im toast.

    Few AoEs are actually mobile, making bat swarm runners unique and for example, some fire AoE, could wreck their party.

    TL, DR; Since the dawn of time everything has a counter, including zerging. Make war about strategy and not about who knows how to play the system
  • Rune_Relic
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    Hello Eric @Wrobel. Thanks for dropping in again.

    You mention single target skills must be viable which I think pretty much sums up all the issues in Cyrodiil PVP.

    Scenario 1.
    3 factions x 100 players on screen....spread out in open ground.
    Even if everyone uses AoE, they can only really hit 1-2 targets at a time so no lag.

    3 factions x 100 players x 1~2 target max every tick... so 300~600 client calls per tick ...[at just one location]

    Scenario 2.
    3 factions x 100 players again .. only this time a 24 man pain train rolls across the screen.
    200 enemy players target the pain train with AoE with each hitting all 24 people.
    2 factions x 100 players x 24 targets = 4800 client calls per tick
    24 of the train all target heals on each other.
    1 factions x 24 players x 6 targets = 144 client calls per tick
    76 remaining players carry on targetting the enemy
    1 factions x 76 players x 1~2 targets = 76-152 client calls per tick

    4800 + 144 + 76~152 = 5020~5096 client calls per tick ...[at just one location]

    Scenario 3.
    3 factions x 100 players again .. only this time with a 24 man ball on each faction.
    100 players on each faction target the 24 man groups that are doing the most damage.

    3 factions x 100 players x 24 targets = 7200 client calls per tick ...[at just one location]

    Scenario 4.
    This time we see a mega Zerg ball roll up with two groups combined.
    Again we have 100 players per faction.
    200 enemy players target the pain train with AoE with each hitting all 48 people.
    2 factions x 100 players x 48 targets = 9600 client calls per tick
    48 of the train all target heals on each other.
    1 factions x 48 players x 6 targets = 288 client calls per tick
    52 remaining players carry on targetting the enemy
    1 factions x 52 players x 1~2 targets = 52-104 client calls per tick

    9600 + 288 + 52~104 = 9940~9992 client calls per tick ...[at just one location]

    Scenario 5.
    3 factions with 50 players stand toe to toe on the flag spamming aoe damage.

    3 faction x 50 players x 60 targets = 9000 client calls per tick ...[at just one location]


    Its painfully obvious to me that server performance is completely dependant on;
    1. player density
    2. target caps
    3. Duration and stacking of Hots/Dots that escalate over time adding even more client calls/updates.
    Even more obvious if the AoE cap was set at one target, although AoE would then be pretty pointless.
    At some point the client calls per tick rapidly exceed Server and network limitations when large groups appear and they get focused.
    The reason they get focused is that multiple smart heals can absorb so much damage and they simply dont die.
    The only way to stand a chance is everyone synchronising a simultaneous strike to remove them before they remove us = massive client calls per tick = massive lag.

    Before 1.6 dropped it was 6 player caps for the most part and 1/10th of the client calls per tick as a result.
    Except the alliance skills which became more and more popular as grouping became more popular and increased in size.
    Effectively culminating in every new player who entered Cyrodiil shouting LFG in chat.


    So for me the only way to remedy the situation is to reverse the AoE caps from 60 back to 6 and fix the Alliance war caps that by default were allowed to dominate PVP in the end.
    Then we can think about restoring the campaign population caps and having some decent large scale fights again.
    But that wont help with the LFG spam and the 24 man groups by default that we are now left with.
    Clealy massive caps arent the answer as it just add client calls and lag.
    Clearly low caps arent the answer as you would never be able to take down 24 man groups now.
    Clearly falloff is not the answer as it just adds client calls but has no real impact to merit the added load.
    You already stated you want damage to be more effective than heals and hence two cap limits.
    So I guess we are left with something like the following....


    Max Group Size = 24 players
    The average damage to 60 players at present = 60 x 42.5% = 24 x 106.25%

    Detonation - 6 variable targets @ 100% ..Smart ..2s 30m 10m [1 Tick - Delay minimised to prevent lagsploit]
    Caltrops - 24 variable targets @ 100% ..nearest epicenter ..4s 30m 10m [2x1 Tick - Snare minimised to prevent snarelock. Grants 8s immunity]
    Flare - 24 variable targets @ 100% ..nearest epicenter ..8s 30m 10m [4x1 Tick - Compromise between revealing gankers and allowing NB to still function. Grants 16s immunity]

    Shield - 24 variable targets @ 100% ..nearest epicenter ..16s 0m 10m [8x1 Tick - Reasonable Safe Haven for anyone to soften overwhelming siege damage]

    Guard - 6 fixed targets @ 100%... [Group members only] ..Smart ..2s 0m 10m [1 Tick - For self sacrifice to take one for the most damaged 6 group players]
    Vigor - 6 fixed targets @ 100%... [Group members only] ..Smart ..4s 0m 10m [2 Tick - Time enough for a good heal without being OP and making DoTs redundant]
    Purge - 6 fixed targets @ 100%... [Group members only] ..Unbuffed nearest epicenter ..8s 0m 10m [4 Tick - extended duration more appropriate for DoT while outlasting HoT]

    Maneuvers - 6 fixed targets @ 100%... [Group members only] ..Unbuffed nearest epicenter ..16s 0m 10m [8 Tick - Reasonable movement boost without helping pain trains]

    Horn - 6 fixed targets @ 100%... [Group members only] ..Unbuffed nearest epicenter ..32s 0m 10m [16 Tick - Long duration damage buff more efficient for small groups]
    Barrier - 6 fixed targets @ 100%... [Group members only] ..Unbuffed nearest epicenter ..32s 0m 10m [16 Tick - Long duration mitigation buff more efficient for small groups]

    Definitions.
    Fixed targets - The original targets are effected every tick for the duration of effect.
    Variable targets - New targets are selected every tick for the duration of effect.


    Other AoE.
    Damage cap = 24 targets with no falloff to counter and overcome smart heals.
    Heal/Mitigation cap = 6 targets with no falloff.


    Summary....
    What I have tried to do here is minimise the targeted players per tick as much as possible.
    Confining defensive AoE to group members only means that stragglers don't get a free lunch and increase the client calls per tick unnecessarily (anti-lag).
    [Solo players are a 1 man group]
    But at the end of the day 24 man groups are a problem.
    Having 6/24 players hit at 100% + falloff is not enough to overcome the smart heals/barriers and purge of such a group.
    Anymore than 60 players hit with falloff is a lag inducing ineffective waste.
    Hitting 24/24 with 100% damage would work, but if we can accomplish the same with a lower cap we should to minimise lag.
    Hitting 6/24 with 100% smart damage guarantees the weakest die instantly regardless of smart heal/barrier/purge.
    This means you minimise group size as quick as is possible.. and as a result reduce targeted players per tick (the main lag culprit).
    If we must have a zerg buster that everyone will spam....we need to make sure it doesn't kill the server doing so.
    Only allowing Detonation to use smart damage ensures it is the most effective way of busting our balls ;)

    Using smart damage ensures the glass cannons are weeded out first and the group is easier to kill with less risk.
    Smart damage should do....
    100% damage if 6 targets hit.
    80% damage if 5 targets hit.
    60% damage if 4 targets hit.
    40% damage if 3 targets hit
    20% damage if 2 targets hit
    0% damage if 1 target is hit.
    This ensures players that are spread out do not become the victims of a 24 man group spamming smart detonation.
    Detonation becomes purely a zerg buster...not an IWIN button.

    In fact it might be a good idea to apply damage reduction below 6 targets hit for all AoE.
    This means single target abilities become much more viable vs low density targets.
    Edited by Rune_Relic on November 25, 2015 7:12PM
    Anything that can be exploited will be exploited
  • Zheg
    Zheg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Sublime wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Blanket removal AOE caps would sufficiently work to completely kill the AvA. This isn't 1.5 or 1.6 damage numbers with battle leveling. This is 2.1 where damage has just about doubled due to lack of foresight on removing caps and the absolute refusal to have damage/healing not scale exponentially out of control. This is the only reason why I am totally against their removal. Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense which makes the game unfun. When IC dropped, it was almost impossible to kill anyone in a 1v1. Good for the new players. As soon as people finished gearing out to BIS, things went downhill very, very fast.

    Until soft caps and hard caps are addressed, I am completely against the removal of AoE caps. PvP is quickly becoming a wasteland to newcomers as is because they are getting macroed back to Storhaven/Deeshan/Auridon. More blanket buffing/nerfing (Battle Spirit) will only make it worse as champion point progression continues. Same people in groups, same people in zone chat, same enemy groups running around. This does not speak well for the long-term health of the game.

    To summarize (and avoid misunderstandings), you are basically the opinion that a removal of AOE caps would be good against bombsquads, but against unorganized players it would be way too OP as they do not exploit defensive skills as much as organized groups do.

    What do you think of the following suggestion, in terms of AOE caps?:

    Reduce the radius of all AOE's to 5m alongside removing the AOE cap. This should make sure that it's very hard to hit a lot of unorganized players with a single AOE, but the effectiveness against organized groups would be very high as they tend to be very clustered.
    Zheg wrote: »
    Regardless of what people who don't actually participate in group v group fights assume, most of the time the stacking happens for the initial bomb, and players then begin to focus on targets in smaller clusters because any smart player will have scattered when they see prox det circles, novas, and negates all in one spot. Group v group players also have to fight on their own/in small groups a good portion of the night (whether caught on back line, caught on siege, scouting, etc.).

    As somebody who played and theorycrafted raid (24-man) PvP since beta, I strongly disagree. The lost effectiveness of AOE heals, purges and barrier makes spreading out extremely punishing, up to an extent where it is almost never desirable. On top of that you loose the mitigation provided by AOE caps, which can be up to 37,5%. Apart from that you do have to defend yourself from time to time, but this most of the times can either be tracked down to bad gameplay, or be dealt with using one or two defensive skills. Single target attacks are only BiS once a fight is over, but then they are usually not even worth the slot, as you heavily outnumber your opponent anyway.

    Not really sure what you're disagreeing with. After the initial bomb, most of the opponents are dead and the remaining have scattered, so the group needs to disperse somewhat to go kill them. If there is still heavy resistance, of course you don't send the group running out in every direction to chase squirrels, I'm talking about cleaning up the riff raff after a bomb is dropped on their group, or leaving a few people behind to watch bodies so one rez templar doesn't get the whole raid back up in 15 seconds while you go repair walls. Most group bars will have at the least one single target ability on their bar, though not all. That's usually sufficient enough to hold your own when you're clearing the riff raff because as you said, yes, you outnumber them now.
    ==Vehemence raid lead== and a surviving member of ==Mostly Harmless==

    V16 Breton Temp - Zig Zheg
    V16 Khajiit Sorc - Zheg
    V16 Dark Elf DK - Zhegg
    V16 Imperial NB - Zegai
    V12 High Elf NB - Zhig
  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Zheg wrote: »
    After the initial bomb, most of the opponents are dead

    Seems like that's pretty much all I'm disagreeing with, balling up and casting all possible ults and proximity at the same time, doesn't necessarily mean an opponent dies.
    Edited by Sublime on November 25, 2015 7:10PM
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Sublime wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Blanket removal AOE caps would sufficiently work to completely kill the AvA. This isn't 1.5 or 1.6 damage numbers with battle leveling. This is 2.1 where damage has just about doubled due to lack of foresight on removing caps and the absolute refusal to have damage/healing not scale exponentially out of control. This is the only reason why I am totally against their removal. Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense which makes the game unfun. When IC dropped, it was almost impossible to kill anyone in a 1v1. Good for the new players. As soon as people finished gearing out to BIS, things went downhill very, very fast.

    Until soft caps and hard caps are addressed, I am completely against the removal of AoE caps. PvP is quickly becoming a wasteland to newcomers as is because they are getting macroed back to Storhaven/Deeshan/Auridon. More blanket buffing/nerfing (Battle Spirit) will only make it worse as champion point progression continues. Same people in groups, same people in zone chat, same enemy groups running around. This does not speak well for the long-term health of the game.

    To summarize (and avoid misunderstandings), you are basically the opinion that a removal of AOE caps would be good against bombsquads, but against unorganized players it would be way too OP as they do not exploit defensive skills as much as organized groups do.

    What do you think of the following suggestion, in terms of AOE caps?:

    Reduce the radius of all AOE's to 5m alongside removing the AOE cap. This should make sure that it's very hard to hit a lot of unorganized players with a single AOE, but the effectiveness against organized groups would be very high as they tend to be very clustered.
    Zheg wrote: »
    Regardless of what people who don't actually participate in group v group fights assume, most of the time the stacking happens for the initial bomb, and players then begin to focus on targets in smaller clusters because any smart player will have scattered when they see prox det circles, novas, and negates all in one spot. Group v group players also have to fight on their own/in small groups a good portion of the night (whether caught on back line, caught on siege, scouting, etc.).

    As somebody who played and theorycrafted raid (24-man) PvP since beta, I strongly disagree. The lost effectiveness of AOE heals, purges and barrier makes spreading out extremely punishing, up to an extent where it is almost never desirable. On top of that you loose the mitigation provided by AOE caps, which can be up to 37,5%. Apart from that you do have to defend yourself from time to time, but this most of the times can either be tracked down to bad gameplay, or be dealt with using one or two defensive skills. Single target attacks are only BiS once a fight is over, but then they are usually not even worth the slot, as you heavily outnumber your opponent anyway.

    Concerned, but worth testing in my opinion. Good suggestion.
    0331
    0602
  • Zheg
    Zheg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Sublime wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    After the initial bomb, most of the opponents are dead

    Seems like that's pretty much all I'm disagreeing with, balling up and casting all possible ults and proximity at the same time, doesn't necessarily mean an opponent dies.

    Not sure it's relevant to the thread all that much, but yes, sometimes people live. To correct the original statement,
    "a well-coordinated bomb will usually wipe most of the opponent group out, and if not, the meta is usually in favor of whoever can re-condense and bomb again the quickest."
    ==Vehemence raid lead== and a surviving member of ==Mostly Harmless==

    V16 Breton Temp - Zig Zheg
    V16 Khajiit Sorc - Zheg
    V16 Dark Elf DK - Zhegg
    V16 Imperial NB - Zegai
    V12 High Elf NB - Zhig
  • k9mouse
    k9mouse
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    My concern is:

    How PVP nerfs affects us PVE players. Sometimes, PVP adjustments are good for PVP, but really must up the PVE.
  • Derra
    Derra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sublime wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Blanket removal AOE caps would sufficiently work to completely kill the AvA. This isn't 1.5 or 1.6 damage numbers with battle leveling. This is 2.1 where damage has just about doubled due to lack of foresight on removing caps and the absolute refusal to have damage/healing not scale exponentially out of control. This is the only reason why I am totally against their removal. Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense which makes the game unfun. When IC dropped, it was almost impossible to kill anyone in a 1v1. Good for the new players. As soon as people finished gearing out to BIS, things went downhill very, very fast.

    Until soft caps and hard caps are addressed, I am completely against the removal of AoE caps. PvP is quickly becoming a wasteland to newcomers as is because they are getting macroed back to Storhaven/Deeshan/Auridon. More blanket buffing/nerfing (Battle Spirit) will only make it worse as champion point progression continues. Same people in groups, same people in zone chat, same enemy groups running around. This does not speak well for the long-term health of the game.

    To summarize (and avoid misunderstandings), you are basically the opinion that a removal of AOE caps would be good against bombsquads, but against unorganized players it would be way too OP as they do not exploit defensive skills as much as organized groups do.

    What do you think of the following suggestion, in terms of AOE caps?:

    Reduce the radius of all AOE's to 5m alongside removing the AOE cap. This should make sure that it's very hard to hit a lot of unorganized players with a single AOE, but the effectiveness against organized groups would be very high as they tend to be very clustered.

    Just going to answer on this part:

    Not a good idea. 5m range is just too small - it´s already hard hitting more than three players with impuls. The only issue with aoe currently are: Batswarm (arguably bc it´s an ultimate) and steeltornado bc of their range and detonation because of the high burst provided.
    Any AOE between 6 and 8m radius is fine as is imho.


    Edit:
    Honestly I have no idea why there even has to be an argument on the topic. 87% voted against caps when they were introduced in a poll with 4000 votes (i laugh at the though they even had 4000 voters on a pvp related topic - boy those days are LONG gone).
    We should not have to argue why aoe caps should go - @Wrobel should explain why they were introduced in the first place and why they´re still in the bloody game.
    This whole thread is a farce and i feel the end result - despite of the majority of posts here arguing for removal of caps will be: Mr. Wrobel thinks caps should stay. Without explanation again.
    Edited by Derra on November 25, 2015 8:19PM
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Turelus
    Turelus
    Community Ambassador
    Enodoc wrote: »
    My basis for that suggestion was that currently, the larger your group is, the less likely you are to take damage because of the existing cap mechanic mitigating damage to larger groups. If the caps were just outright removed, then being in a large blob no longer helps for defensive purposes, but also doesn't encourage use of single-target over AoE, which is something Wrobel wants to promote.
    Surely this is something which should be addressed at the skill or basic mechanics level rather than mechanics which scales additional damage on large groups.
    This seems like it's more of a statement that "you shouldn't play the game this way" rather than an attempt at balance which gives all gameplay styles and players a fair opportunity.
    The reason bomb groups are so strong right now is because of their ability to turtle and not be taken down by AoE effects, the specific mechanics of which being the random target chosen for damage but the most needed target chosen for healing. Take these caps away and suddenly balling up becomes a hazard because everyone will be effected by

    The shift towards single target DPS should come from people spreading out because without caps AoE's will be more dangerous to a train. Ideally you want a situation where (like in PvE) you have AoE and single target skills and each have their times of use.
    Enodoc wrote: »
    A blob would still spam AoEs against a small group instead of using single-target, which would neither improve the lag issues nor create a fun playstyle for the small group. Reducing damage for the first 6 enemies hit by an AoE makes the single-target more favourable in that situation, making gameplay for the small group more fun.A larger group would still have the advantage over a smaller group, but an inverted cap would give the smaller group a bit more of a chance.
    This doesn't make any sense though and is saying "because your group wouldn't be strong enough normally we're going to give you help via a game mechanic winning vs the bigger guys" once again trying to validate that bigger groups are bad and shouldn't be done and smaller groups are the only correct playstyle.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    :: Unofficial Forums FAQ :: MissBizz ESO Guides :: AlcastHQ Guides :: Tamriel Foundry Forums :: UESP ESO Page :: ESO Sets :: Woeler Tank Guides :: ESO Community Discord ::
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Derra wrote: »
    Sublime wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Blanket removal AOE caps would sufficiently work to completely kill the AvA. This isn't 1.5 or 1.6 damage numbers with battle leveling. This is 2.1 where damage has just about doubled due to lack of foresight on removing caps and the absolute refusal to have damage/healing not scale exponentially out of control. This is the only reason why I am totally against their removal. Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense which makes the game unfun. When IC dropped, it was almost impossible to kill anyone in a 1v1. Good for the new players. As soon as people finished gearing out to BIS, things went downhill very, very fast.

    Until soft caps and hard caps are addressed, I am completely against the removal of AoE caps. PvP is quickly becoming a wasteland to newcomers as is because they are getting macroed back to Storhaven/Deeshan/Auridon. More blanket buffing/nerfing (Battle Spirit) will only make it worse as champion point progression continues. Same people in groups, same people in zone chat, same enemy groups running around. This does not speak well for the long-term health of the game.

    To summarize (and avoid misunderstandings), you are basically the opinion that a removal of AOE caps would be good against bombsquads, but against unorganized players it would be way too OP as they do not exploit defensive skills as much as organized groups do.

    What do you think of the following suggestion, in terms of AOE caps?:

    Reduce the radius of all AOE's to 5m alongside removing the AOE cap. This should make sure that it's very hard to hit a lot of unorganized players with a single AOE, but the effectiveness against organized groups would be very high as they tend to be very clustered.

    Just going to answer on this part:

    Not a good idea. 5m range is just too small - it´s already hard hitting more than three players with impuls. The only issue with aoe currently are: Batswarm (arguably bc it´s an ultimate) and steeltornado bc of their range and detonation because of the high burst provided.
    Any AOE between 6 and 8m radius is fine as is imho.


    Edit:
    Honestly I have no idea why there even has to be an argument on the topic. 87% voted against caps when they were introduced in a poll with 4000 votes (i laugh at the though they even had 4000 voters on a pvp related topic - boy those days are LONG gone).
    We should not have to argue why aoe caps should go - @Wrobel should explain why they were introduced in the first place and why they´re still in the bloody game.
    This whole thread is a farce and i feel the end result - despite of the majority of posts here arguing for removal of caps will be: Mr. Wrobel thinks caps should stay. Without explanation again.

    ZOS considers AOE a skill type that should be equivalent to single-target in terms of choices, so there definetely is need for a discussion.

    Regarding the radius of AOE's, personally I have no problem hitting 10+ players with Pulsar. What I do not get from your post is, do you prefer to solve the bombsquad issue with modifications to AvA skills or some different solution?
  • Derra
    Derra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sublime wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sublime wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Blanket removal AOE caps would sufficiently work to completely kill the AvA. This isn't 1.5 or 1.6 damage numbers with battle leveling. This is 2.1 where damage has just about doubled due to lack of foresight on removing caps and the absolute refusal to have damage/healing not scale exponentially out of control. This is the only reason why I am totally against their removal. Spin2Win, ProxDet and Vampbat trains would completely obliterate any unorganized defense which makes the game unfun. When IC dropped, it was almost impossible to kill anyone in a 1v1. Good for the new players. As soon as people finished gearing out to BIS, things went downhill very, very fast.

    Until soft caps and hard caps are addressed, I am completely against the removal of AoE caps. PvP is quickly becoming a wasteland to newcomers as is because they are getting macroed back to Storhaven/Deeshan/Auridon. More blanket buffing/nerfing (Battle Spirit) will only make it worse as champion point progression continues. Same people in groups, same people in zone chat, same enemy groups running around. This does not speak well for the long-term health of the game.

    To summarize (and avoid misunderstandings), you are basically the opinion that a removal of AOE caps would be good against bombsquads, but against unorganized players it would be way too OP as they do not exploit defensive skills as much as organized groups do.

    What do you think of the following suggestion, in terms of AOE caps?:

    Reduce the radius of all AOE's to 5m alongside removing the AOE cap. This should make sure that it's very hard to hit a lot of unorganized players with a single AOE, but the effectiveness against organized groups would be very high as they tend to be very clustered.

    Just going to answer on this part:

    Not a good idea. 5m range is just too small - it´s already hard hitting more than three players with impuls. The only issue with aoe currently are: Batswarm (arguably bc it´s an ultimate) and steeltornado bc of their range and detonation because of the high burst provided.
    Any AOE between 6 and 8m radius is fine as is imho.


    Edit:
    Honestly I have no idea why there even has to be an argument on the topic. 87% voted against caps when they were introduced in a poll with 4000 votes (i laugh at the though they even had 4000 voters on a pvp related topic - boy those days are LONG gone).
    We should not have to argue why aoe caps should go - @Wrobel should explain why they were introduced in the first place and why they´re still in the bloody game.
    This whole thread is a farce and i feel the end result - despite of the majority of posts here arguing for removal of caps will be: Mr. Wrobel thinks caps should stay. Without explanation again.

    ZOS considers AOE a skill type that should be equivalent to single-target in terms of choices, so there definetely is need for a discussion.

    Regarding the radius of AOE's, personally I have no problem hitting 10+ players with Pulsar. What I do not get from your post is, do you prefer to solve the bombsquad issue with modifications to AvA skills or some different solution?

    My approach would be something along the lines of 4 steps under the general question:

    Do trains dissolve/alternate their playstyle (stacking as close as possible)? Is cyrodiil performance getting better? Test for 4 to 6 weeks on live for every step.
    If answer is NO => next step if answer is YES - hooray we can now go more in depth with class and ability balance in pvp.

    1) Remove AOE caps on dmg.

    2) Rework purge - make it you can not be affected again while under the influence of the purge buff (50% decreased duration of negative effects - halve it´s duration - maybe also target cap at 6 but debateable)

    3) Give barrier a Target cap of 6 (like healing abilities - also with smart healing function lowest health targets in range get shielded - maybe adjust it´s cost a bit)

    4) Think about changing back to dynamic ultimate system scaling with number of targets hit in some way.


    I feel the removal of aoe caps is mandatory and should not be up for debate. It´s not about creating a meta where 5 beat 20 consistently - it´s about an even playingfield.
    If you´re playing football 5 vs 20 you should not get rocks tied to your feet just because the enemy team could muster up 15 more people (that´s what aoe caps are doing basically).
    Edited by Derra on November 25, 2015 9:29PM
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Derra wrote: »
    1) Remove AOE caps on dmg.

    I see, after you wrote the only issue with aoe would be swarm and tornado, I was a bit confused, but this makes it more clear. :)
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