AoE Caps Discussion

  • Leandor
    Leandor
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    Proximity detonation: make the attack timer 10 seconds and make it take you out of stealth the moment it is cast, not the moment it goes off. No scaling based on number of targets hit - 5 shall never be able to win against 40 just because they feel they are more entitled to have fun for being a "small group".

    Purge: not only limit number of targets but also make it range based instead of "smart". Do this in general for heal spells in pvp.

    Barrier: don't per se limit targets it can effect. Have the base ability hit 12 targets with half the shield strength it does today. One morph makes it unlimited targets with the small size shield, the other makes it the same 12 targets with the current strength. Remove the resource/health recovery it nowadays has. Give all barrier morphs a 15 second debuff preventing a new barrier from affecting the debuffed target. Reduce ultimate cost down to 75.

    AoE caps: minimize the calculation effort on the servers and give the complainers their cap removal. Reduce their overall damage done to an individual target so far that your dps is higher with single target abilities until you hit more than 4 targets.

    Battle spirit: instead of reducing damage received, reduce damage dealt. That separates mitigation from battle spirit and prevents additive stacking of both. Adjust npcs in IC by reducing their health pools. Stop catering to those that crave big numbers flashing on their screens.

    Steel tornado: reduce radius to at most 5 meters. Have the other morph do half the damage but recover stamina and health for every target hit - a fixed amount of stamina and health in the same order of magnitude as the constitution passive from heavy armor.

    Remove animation cancelling.
  • Morostyle
    Morostyle
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    From what I understand it is not the fact that 5 players are facing 20, it's how the 20 ball up making a single target impossible and ontop of that reducing the amount of AoE damage.

    In fact a 20 person vs 5 would maintain the 20 man advantage even with an AoE increased damage per player in area.

    It would just force them to seperate allowing for single target, it's not like an AoE covers the whole freaking keep.

    Also, historically speaking, a well defended position SHOULD be able to have 5 vs 20.

    Remember WW2? The allies were looking at a 10 to 1 loss attacking the defended beeches! Yes a well positioned defense should have a mad ratio like that!

    Early stage of this game, we rekt people with 5-8 man vs 20 EASY, due to no cap
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  • CP5
    CP5
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    1.) You want to break up large groups and tried prox-detonation as a fix. If all aoe's could force people to spread out wouldn't that more generally fix the problem?

    2.) A large number of aoe's just aren't amazing. Volley, WoE, things like that people generally don't use because they are generally lack luster and if you did use them the only thing driving people out of them is their characters frequent grunting sounds by being frequently hit by the "damage." Sorry, people don't melt in these aoe's, they laugh and walk away. Unless its an aoe that can be spammed for high up front damage, in which case I just think you need to rethink the point of that skill in game.
  • Morostyle
    Morostyle
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    wrong repost :)
    Edited by Morostyle on November 25, 2015 12:14AM
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  • hammayolettuce
    hammayolettuce
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    As for Magicka Detonation, I am going to reference my favorite Dota 2 play of all time.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=5K2CNiECTeo

    That, my friends, is Echo Slam and what Magicka Detonation should be designed after. Echo isn't that much damage if it only hits one player. Echo is dumb powerful if it hits a lot of players, but unlike magicka detonation, Echo Slam is an all or nothing skill.

    IMO, the best way to fix MD is to rework the skill. Make it very high risk with a very high reward.

    - This skill should cost all of your remaining magicka (whether 100% or 5%). ALL OF IT.
    - Base tool tip damage reduced by about 33%.
    - 5m initial AOE.
    - Anyone effected by the primary blast deals 1X% of their maximum magicka in a 5 meter radius around them.
    - No AOE cap.

    You dont fix a meta by putting 1 skill in the game - that is used by only magicka users.

    Which, if you actually bothered to do anything other than kneejerk-stam/magicka-paradigm respond you would realize that a vast majority of the damage is NOT coming from the initial damage, but the echo'd magicka explosion from other enemy characters standing in proximity. This forces magicka users to stay away from the zergball or get their entire team gibbed.

    Let's put this in the context of your stam sorc.

    You see a nice zerg ball of 15 players just standing on itself derping and spamming purges/healing springs. You buff yourself with surge/lightning form then prime proximity det.

    You hit critical charge when the timer hits 1 second and prox det goes off hitting all players, it does about 2.5k damage on the initial explosion, pretty crappy cuz stam right? Right.

    However, due to these new mechanics, say there was 7 Magicka (Averaging 30k magicka amongst them) and 7 stamina (averaging 14k amongst them) and 1 hybrid tank sitting at 22k magicka. The average for all of their magicka pools is 22k, which means that each target you hit will resonate for another 2.2k (before reduction) damage. That's 35.5k damage as a stam sorc, before reductions.

    So, balling up gets you punished by Magicka Det which is what @Wrobel stated was his purpose for the skill.

    Stam user using prox det and magicka user using prox det I two totally different dmg numbers.

    Prox det isn't the answer

    Removing AOE caps is the answer.
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  • Dagoth_Rac
    Dagoth_Rac
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    This would probably be difficult to implement, but what if AoE caps applied to new PvP players but not experienced PvP players? Like once you reach a certain Alliance War Rank, AoE will always hit you for 100% damage. This would hurt the "pro zergs" where everyone has millions and millions of AP and all the top skills and passives unlocked. But it would still allow new and casual players to go for a "safety in numbers" approach so that they don't get wrecked nonstop by experienced pro players. By the time they reach the rank cutoff where AoE hits them 100% all the time, hopefully they have played enough in Cyrodiil to spread out and still be good.
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    As for Magicka Detonation, I am going to reference my favorite Dota 2 play of all time.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=5K2CNiECTeo

    That, my friends, is Echo Slam and what Magicka Detonation should be designed after. Echo isn't that much damage if it only hits one player. Echo is dumb powerful if it hits a lot of players, but unlike magicka detonation, Echo Slam is an all or nothing skill.

    IMO, the best way to fix MD is to rework the skill. Make it very high risk with a very high reward.

    - This skill should cost all of your remaining magicka (whether 100% or 5%). ALL OF IT.
    - Base tool tip damage reduced by about 33%.
    - 5m initial AOE.
    - Anyone effected by the primary blast deals 1X% of their maximum magicka in a 5 meter radius around them.
    - No AOE cap.

    You dont fix a meta by putting 1 skill in the game - that is used by only magicka users.

    Which, if you actually bothered to do anything other than kneejerk-stam/magicka-paradigm respond you would realize that a vast majority of the damage is NOT coming from the initial damage, but the echo'd magicka explosion from other enemy characters standing in proximity. This forces magicka users to stay away from the zergball or get their entire team gibbed.

    Let's put this in the context of your stam sorc.

    You see a nice zerg ball of 15 players just standing on itself derping and spamming purges/healing springs. You buff yourself with surge/lightning form then prime proximity det.

    You hit critical charge when the timer hits 1 second and prox det goes off hitting all players, it does about 2.5k damage on the initial explosion, pretty crappy cuz stam right? Right.

    However, due to these new mechanics, say there was 7 Magicka (Averaging 30k magicka amongst them) and 7 stamina (averaging 14k amongst them) and 1 hybrid tank sitting at 22k magicka. The average for all of their magicka pools is 22k, which means that each target you hit will resonate for another 2.2k (before reduction) damage. That's 35.5k damage as a stam sorc, before reductions.

    So, balling up gets you punished by Magicka Det which is what @Wrobel stated was his purpose for the skill.

    Stam user using prox det and magicka user using prox det I two totally different dmg numbers.

    Prox det isn't the answer

    Removing AOE caps is the answer.

    Slightly, different. Bother to do the math? 1.3k spellpower at that many targets will produce 80% of the damage that 3.5k spellpower will.

    Anyways @Wrobel, don't know about you but I prefer skilled, well timed, skill-based gameplay over spam2win. There need to be more skills that work off percentages unaffected my max stam/magicka and more skill shots, because right now there are very little (volcanic rune/beast trap/daedric mines).
    Edited by usmcjdking on November 25, 2015 12:41AM
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  • GreenSoup2HoT
    GreenSoup2HoT
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    For feedback this week, we’d love to hear about situations in which you feel like you are having problems.
    The number of players you’re fighting against.
    -Usually against any group of player's who know how to stack on-top of each other, explanation below. (Ball Group's)
    Abilities you believe they are using, and abilities you feel need tweaks to make them more effective against larger numbers.

    You already know what abilities large groups are using that need tweak's. However for ability's that could be more effective against these "Ball Group's", i would say Bombard need's a range increase. Wall of element's needs a huge damage increase. We have no real good ranged AoE ability's to fire at these "Ball Group's" without getting run over by a literal steel tornado.

    You could maybe place a new cooldown into the game, "Gap Closer Immunity". A whole Zerg can gap closer on you and jump to who ever is next. At least with some type of cooldown player's have a chance to get away or fight the player who jumped on them. It's far to easy for player's to just jump around. This would also give ranged user's some room to kite there enemy instead of getting gap closed every 2 second's.



    Here's what i think about AoE cap's.

    Ball Group's
    The current Problem:

    These group's have very good coordination and abuse your mechanic's. These group's know how to abuse the damage mitigation and out heal any damage being done to them. They stack on top of one another and have dedicated player's to spam one ability. Healing spring's, Steel Tornado, Barrier, War horn, ETC.

    What you end up getting is what i like to call the "Tasmanian devil effect". A tornado that you cannot stop. It is impossible unless you have yourself a group doing the exact same thing to even combat them.

    BTUwY2o.gif

    There are only 2 solution's i can think of.

    Complete Removal of AoE Cap's:

    Pro's and Con's

    Pro's

    - A small man group can take out these ball group's with good coordination.

    - Siege weapon's will be alot more deadly [Disregard current damage. This is getting fixed hopefully.]

    - Choke points. You can know have a small group of player's hold a choke point against massive amount's of player's. [Siege damage need's to be fixed for this to be possible.]

    - Player's will spread out in fear of group's ultimate/AoE bombs which leave's more room for 1v1 play style's to pick people off. Which i really like. The more people spread out, the more play-style's become viable.

    Con's

    - Essentially you will receive more ball group's but with fewer people. For example, you could have 5 friend's all vampire's with steel tornado + clouding swarm, they will charge up there ultimate's on npc's and kill anyone in a 10 meter radius once they strike.

    - Less use of single target abilities in group play. Personally if AoE cap's where removed every stamina build would be using steel tornado. Not that this is a bad thing, you should build for how you want to play. Like i said above, many player's will also use single target abilities to take out player's who spread out from the group.

    - Caltrop's. This ability would slow everyone from getting inside a keep. Another thing to look out for. Not to opposed of this either but some may find this very annoying. [If siege damage got fixed this would be deadly.]

    -Ball group's can still be ball group's.
    This one need's more of an explanation.

    With enough AoE healer's and damage dealer's. It would still be very hard for a small group of player's to take these guy's out. You are still going up against twice the AoE damage and healing. There is still going to be that man advantage. Not to say it's impossible however AoE cap's will not give you a definitive counter to these group's of player's.

    This is where people usually say "dynamic ultimate generation" should be put in place. Bigger group's should have the clear advantage, i don't want to see small group's just crushing bigger group's because they know how to drop ultimate after ultimate. I don't want to see the old D.U.G, we need something new entirely. Something to give small group's a chance.

    I still believe More>Less, not More=Less. With the removal of AoE cap's, anyone's small group may become a miniature "Tasmanian devil effect". However the bigger the Tornado should win most of the time. How i like to think about it, if you want to be successful as a small group you need to play smart, be like 300 and use the Hot gates. If you can funnel your enemy to your size it become's a much fairer fight.

    3850431-2831049-urukaaaa.jpg


    So in my opinion. AoE cap removal is a step in the right direction. Let's start with that and fix siege damage and see how it play's out.

    2: Complete the implementation of AoE cap's and cap any skill not effected. [IN PVP] :

    Pro's and Con's
    Pro's

    -Less effected player's with barrier mean's less overall damage needed to kill that group.
    -Less player's effect by purge resulting in more casualties in choke point's from siege weapon's. [Disregard current siege damage.]
    -No more Templar Ultimate heal's, healing the entire group.
    -Smaller group's will still gain full benefit from purge/barrier etc if they don't exceed the limit.

    Con's

    -Ball Group's can still mitigate Damage stacking on one another.
    -Player's have no need to spread apart.
    -Small group's still hit with full damage from ball group's




    This is only an alternative way of thinking. I still prefer the removal of AoE cap's over this scenario. This scenario would only be realistic if Siege damage was the only thing not effected by AoE cap's. If this were the case, siege weapon's would massacre anyone who dare's to bundle up and stack like these so called "ball group's".

    Also to reiterate, siege damage in it's current stage is pitiful. It's so bad that i can get hit by 2-3 at the same time, use purge and be good to go. Once the damage is drastically increased to almost one shotting player's with 20k health, ball group's would defiantly be less of an issue.

    Overall i think two thing's need to happen immediately. Remove AoE cap's and increase the Siege Weapon Damage.

    Thank's for reading my opinion on AoE cap's. Have a great day!
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    Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on November 25, 2015 2:08AM
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  • skillastat
    skillastat
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    Wrobel wrote: »
    Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

    In that case, why does the 20 player group need the added advantage of free damage reduction given that you are admitting that they have the advantage and will most likely defeat 5 players anyway? Currently in a 5 v 20, the 20 player group gets reduced damage just for standing next to each other on top of their natural numbers advantage.

    this sums up my thoughts

    Oh and @Fengrush as always +1
    Edited by skillastat on November 25, 2015 1:35AM
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  • MisterBigglesworth
    MisterBigglesworth
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    Crown wrote: »
    I'm curious how difficult it would be to remove the AoE caps on the coding side.

    Why not make a 7-day campaign to test PvP changes like this?

    That's a great idea, though I'm skepitcal the big ball groups would willingly switch over when they know they would be put at a disadvantage.

    Kinda like what happened with the gated access IC campaign.
    Path of least resistence and all that...

    Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.
  • Cogo
    Cogo
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    AoE is fine as it is. People needs to improve their playstyle, instead of complaining over everything else.
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  • Prospering
    Prospering
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    wat fengrush said
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