Grao wrote: »

Still no answer from ZoS...

You mean not the answer you want.

For me, the issue is very simple:

If you're a VR that hasn't yet run Cadwell's Silver+Gold, you get 30 CP PLUS all the related CP for running those quests when you do.

If you're a VR that HAS run Cadwell's Silver+Gold, you get 30 CP and ZERO CP from running through 100% of all 3 factions.

If you're in the latter group and solo content is your thing - enjoy Cyrodil Dailies because they'll be the only significant source of solo quest XP available to you for a very long time to come. I hope you're good at PvP, because if the number of Cyrodil PvE questers balloons as I expect it to, the gankers will be waiting for you at the quest hubs, as is their right in a PvP zone!

For me, the solution is also very simple:

- Either retroactively grant CP for completed Cadwell's quests to those that have already finished them...

OR

- Give NO CP from Cadwell's Quests to people who run them after the update.

If you want to frontload CP to even out VR's for the sake of balance, that's fine. Just position it as "getting Cadwell's CP in advance" instead of allowing lower levels to double-dip.

To be clear, I'm only talking about the Quest Reward XP (and related CP). We all have the option to go grind mobs whether questing or not.

I may not agree with all of the decisions and changes in direction but I can live with them and hope/trust that ZoS has the best intentions to do what is best for the game...

...but I cannot live with people who ran (a HUGE amount) of content getting zero CP while people who haven't run it yet WILL get the related CP when they do.

We should all be able to play the game and advance without worry of being unequally penalized for it. As it stands now, it is SILLY for solo PvE'rs to run Cadwell's quests until after this gets implemented.

As the GM of a 500 member guild, I am seeing numerous people who are taking a break from the game solely because of this issue. How is that a good thing? Your original intent of "keep playing - we're tracking!" was the right one, even if the implementation needs to change as you flesh it all out.

PLEASE - just EQUALIZE it, one way or the other. We may not like the choice you go with, but it least it'll apply fairly.

-H

I'm just curious what hair brained genius thought a blatant rip off would go over well? Sad part is there is a large portion of people that don't use the forums and don't even realize this is coming. You think you've got a *** storm now of people highly aggravated?

I've already said it a few times in a few places. No way you slice it does it add up or make any sense at all to completely erase progress that players made. Anything you have done between V1 and V14 is having the reward for doing it just straight removed while anyone who hasn't done it will be rewarded when they do get around to it. I'll go one further. anything at all that you've done between V1 and when 1.6 hits live is trash.
It's sitting there ready to be thrown out but because it's a lazy teenagers job to take the trash out first it has to sit near the trash, right beside the trash but can't be thrown away until it actually starts to stink and rot.

Bad company decisions ruin good games, happens often. A pure disregard for their players that borders on out right disrespect and a flippant back handed "Who cares what those guys say? We do what we want and they'll just have to deal with it."

Some of you insist it's okay. Some of you have no problems at all with the change and some couldn't care less about it. If it doesn't affect you at all then fine, why are you arguing about it? For those that have a real problem with it, and those that are literally walking away from the game because of it. It's between them and ZOS and at this point it's one sided since ZOS won't step up and acknowledge a genuine concern of many players.

ZO doesn't care at all if you quit and walk away. If they did they might have responded to the innumerable posts on this subject already instead of once again blatantly and obviously just straight ignoring a large concern of a large portion of their players. Instead posting self congratulations on winning MMORPG's faux competition, or posting about a missing sound effect from rapids, or wait the "we see no reason for server maintenance at this time" even though there are pages of issues listed due to needing a reset. To be quickly followed by "Oh well we finally tried to play ourselves so we decided a reset was needed, we just didn't care to listen to our players when they said the same thing the day before." might be paraphrasing equals to the same thing though.



If you have no issue, then why are you arguing? Are you suggesting that just because it isn't a concern of yours then it isn't a valid concern for others? That's a little self absorbed, but to be expected here.

I am confused. Could someone point me to the post where ZOS stated that VR14 would never be compensated for the efforts and accomplishments? I have seen where they said we would not get more than 30CP in 1.6, but I did not see anything that leads me to believe that in 1.7 when VR goes away we would not be compensated.
Just asking...

Jaxsun wrote: »

liquid_wolf wrote: »

I am disappointed the XP tracking reward/conversion isn't going to happen.

I can understand the change, but it does mean there is no point for me to be playing until 1.6. I'd rather just hold off until PTS and release of 1.6 and continue from where I am currently at.

This is why they told us they were tracking our XP....so that we didn't unsub from October to 1.6, lying for monetary gain...card carrying @$$holes

Where did ZOS say they would not reward VR14's when they actually remove VR, which is 1.7 or greater. Everyone is freaked out and ZOS is not helping themselves by not communicating more, but nothing that I can find says they will not give VR14's more latter, just not now.
So has a ZOS representative come out and said this would not happen ever? If so can you point me to the post?

Yeah, that quote from Gina does indeed leave little to interpretation - "This will ONLY occur at the onset of Update 6." If they were planning some sort of adjustment in 1.7 when vet levels are removed, I doubt she'd have been that clear.

Heruthema wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

liquid_wolf wrote: »

I am disappointed the XP tracking reward/conversion isn't going to happen.

I can understand the change, but it does mean there is no point for me to be playing until 1.6. I'd rather just hold off until PTS and release of 1.6 and continue from where I am currently at.

This is why they told us they were tracking our XP....so that we didn't unsub from October to 1.6, lying for monetary gain...card carrying @$$holes

Where did ZOS say they would not reward VR14's when they actually remove VR, which is 1.7 or greater. Everyone is freaked out and ZOS is not helping themselves by not communicating more, but nothing that I can find says they will not give VR14's more latter, just not now.
So has a ZOS representative come out and said this would not happen ever? If so can you point me to the post?

below is the full quote. i wouldn't peg as an "answer" that normal humans give, but a politician's consolidated answer of yes-and-no-and-maybe-PAY-NO-ATTENTION-TO-THE-MAN-BEHIND-THE-CURTAIN.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

As many of you know, the Champion System is designed to be a replacement for the Veteran System. Internally, we have been implementing and testing the Champion System for the last few months. During that iteration time we’ve learned a lot. This changed some of our intended launch goals for the system. Specifically of concern is the number of Champion Points earned before the system launches. Here are four of the most salient points with regards to the number of Champion Points earned when we launch phase 3 with Update 6 and the reasons for the change:

1. The system needs to be integrated in phases, leaving the Veteran Ranks in place for phase 3.
   
   Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.
   
   
2. The system should give more value for each point spent than originally conceived.
   
   A second thing we learned is that each Champion Point needs to have more impact on the stats it is altering than originally planned. This came up frequently in our internal feedback sessions. Responding to that feedback, we decreased the number of overall points in the system (14,400 to 3,600), but kept the range of what they could alter the same. Because each point is more valuable there are less points overall in the system. Thus we can’t give out as many points with the introduction of the system as originally believed.
   
   
3. The system has to account for relative power values of the game.
   
   We had to start narrowing down on the variables for our content in the game. Because we are changing many of the abilities and base factors in the gameplay, we needed to start with less of a variance in player power to achieve a good introduction of the system. Or more simply, the more points we give out now, the harder it is to find a good place between various balance points: PvP, overland content, Veteran Content, Craglorn, Dungeons, Trials, etc…
   
   
4. The system shouldn’t separate players more.
   
   This is pretty self-explanatory, and is related to the first point. While the system is meant to have built in safeguards against players pulling away from each other too dramatically – those systems aren’t in currently. A 1-to-1 XP conversion to Champion XP was too dramatic.

Also, when phase 3 of the Champion System goes live with Update 6, all accounts that have at least one Veteran Rank character on them will automatically receive 30 Champion Points. These 30 Champion Points, though applied to your account, are distributed in full to each individual character on your account, just as Champion Points you earn are. So, if you have 5 characters, at least one of which is Veteran Rank 1 or higher, all five of those characters will have 30 CP to spend. You will not be awarded more Champion Points for having five Veteran Characters versus just one. You will also be able to begin earning Champion Points on any Veteran Rank character from that point forward.

We feel confident that our current solution is better for the enjoyment of the game overall than our originally announced design. This comes from weeks of testing the system. While iterating on solutions and changing the design is a normal and necessary part of the game making process, we definitely understand how changes to a system like this can be frustrating and seem to come from nowhere.

That said, we’re going to continue to be open about our plans and designs for the future of ESO. While a change in development like this can be frustrating, it isn’t a reason for us to not communicate. We never intend to mislead, but sometimes even our best ideas just don’t work out once they get into the game. We feel the Champion System is still going to be a fun way for you to keep customizing your character to suit your tastes and specializing in ways that make you unique. We’re looking forward to you giving it a trial run on the PTS, and sending us your feedback.

i did my best to "bold" the "key" statements. now i want to be perfectly clear- i do NOT intend to speak for the thread with this interpretation. each person may attach their mind to other statements. these are the ones i felt were the more glaring "answers" for no compensation per the Oct 3rd statement. i will also emphasize that these are NOT answers directly to our questions regarding what will happen to the VR experience players gained prior to the CS implementation, with their "keep playing" statement in mind- which to me is the most glaring issue people ultimately have.

edit:

@grao has even more support for the confusion with regards to VR to CS

Grao wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

liquid_wolf wrote: »

I am disappointed the XP tracking reward/conversion isn't going to happen.

I can understand the change, but it does mean there is no point for me to be playing until 1.6. I'd rather just hold off until PTS and release of 1.6 and continue from where I am currently at.

This is why they told us they were tracking our XP....so that we didn't unsub from October to 1.6, lying for monetary gain...card carrying @$$holes

Where did ZOS say they would not reward VR14's when they actually remove VR, which is 1.7 or greater. Everyone is freaked out and ZOS is not helping themselves by not communicating more, but nothing that I can find says they will not give VR14's more latter, just not now.
So has a ZOS representative come out and said this would not happen ever? If so can you point me to the post?

They said that upon the release of 1.6 everyone with a veteran rank character will be given 30 champion points, just 30 points. Unfortunately their vague statement, left to interpretation can mean they don't plan to reward us with additional CPs... Ever.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and put this to rest. What Kai said a few days ago is correct. Just to make sure we're all on the same page, once Update 6 is released and you have at least one Veteran Rank character, all your characters will receive 30 Champion Points - no more, no less. This will only occur at the onset of Update 6; after this is released, you will gain Champion Points one at a time as designed.

the problem:

"after this is released, you will gain Champion Points one at a time as designed."

to which i say, well duh.... that still doesn't answer you intent with VR to CS conversions.

hence the issues....

Heruthema wrote: »

OK maybe I am just dumb and am missing it completely, but again all the posts are referring to is 1.6 while the VR's are still in place and they do not rule out any future changes when VR goes away.
In fact they have avoided any discussion of what life will be like when there are no VR ranks at all.

You aren't dumb, you're just hopeful. The rest of us are mostly concerned with this other quote from Gina:

Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and put this to rest. What Kai said a few days ago is correct. Just to make sure we're all on the same page, once Update 6 is released and you have at least one Veteran Rank character, all your characters will receive 30 Champion Points - no more, no less. This will only occur at the onset of Update 6; after this is released, you will gain Champion Points one at a time as designed.

I bolded the part that is concerning.

@Heruthema read @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and put this to rest. What Kai said a few days ago is correct. Just to make sure we're all on the same page, once Update 6 is released and you have at least one Veteran Rank character, all your characters will receive 30 Champion Points - no more, no less. This will only occur at the onset of Update 6; after this is released, you will gain Champion Points one at a time as designed.

A few months ago, it was said that we were tracking XP. However, this was still early in development and through internal testing and feedback, found that we needed to change our plans (and, honestly, this quite normal through the course of development). We understand that this was, indeed, a major change from what we were originally planning. In an effort to be open with everyone about how things were going and what was planned, it caused a great deal of confusion, and we sincerely apologize for that.

As it has been said a number of times, we certainly encourage you to hop on the PTS once this is available in January and try out the system. This is also a great chance to plan how you'd like to build your character once it's live!

Hope you all are enjoying the holidays, and we'll see you in the new year.

Heruthema wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

@Heruthema read @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and put this to rest. What Kai said a few days ago is correct. Just to make sure we're all on the same page, once Update 6 is released and you have at least one Veteran Rank character, all your characters will receive 30 Champion Points - no more, no less. This will only occur at the onset of Update 6; after this is released, you will gain Champion Points one at a time as designed.

A few months ago, it was said that we were tracking XP. However, this was still early in development and through internal testing and feedback, found that we needed to change our plans (and, honestly, this quite normal through the course of development). We understand that this was, indeed, a major change from what we were originally planning. In an effort to be open with everyone about how things were going and what was planned, it caused a great deal of confusion, and we sincerely apologize for that.

As it has been said a number of times, we certainly encourage you to hop on the PTS once this is available in January and try out the system. This is also a great chance to plan how you'd like to build your character once it's live!

Hope you all are enjoying the holidays, and we'll see you in the new year.

I have read it over and over and nowhere is it said that when VR completely goes away you will not be compensated somehow. It talks about the fact that when 6 is released will be the only time that anyone will get 30CP after that it is one point at a time. So if you are at 49 the day of, to bad you lose.
It does not say anything about 1.7 when vets go away. I am just trying to get confirmation of whether or not ZOS actually said that all the work put in by all the players to get to VR14 counts for nothing. I know they will never actually say that but if they have said that they are not going to compensate at a latter date, please show me the post.
I do understand how it can be interpreted by what was said, and more importantly was not said, that they intend to not compensate players at a latter date, but I have not actually read those words.

welcome to the club....

This may be TL;DR but I gotta try to give an honest and as neutral as possible appraisal from my perspective and I hope that if you take the time to read you will see why this issue is problematic for a long time player like me.

I agree in that the champion system is a good move and removing vet levels is as well. Overall I think it will add to endgame in a good way over the long term.

I don't like the idea of possibly not being compensated for v2-v14 and beyond XP.

Those that are saying hey we don't really know what they are going to do have a good point. As far as I can tell there is no official word one way or the other. Granted they did say keep playing we will track XP beyond 14 for some sort of compensation, the 1.6 patch 30 CP for V1+ give-away may be completely separate from this, right? It could be one of those situations where the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing... But it does bring up issues NOT knowing either through a follow up or retraction of the V2+ compensation (up to "a cap" of course) statement that was laid down that so many of you have quoted.


I have a V14, a V1, and several lowbies that mostly serve as inventory mules at the moment.

What options and incentives do I have given the current environment? Let's see:

- Should I spend my time on my V14 gaining XP if no compensation will be coming through? If it's not, it sure does take a lot of incentive away from this choice. I could use this toon to farm V14 gear but if gear is going to drop to 50, why bother? Got undaunted maxed on this toon, why bother with dungeons?
- As an alternative, should I spend time leveling up alts? Well, I'm incentivized to NOT do this because I should wait for the 30 CP in 1.6 to apply to my alts to level easier and faster as well as see how the new skills roll out before picking a race/build direction.
- Should I spend my time leveling up my V1? If no compensation is coming up, doesn't sound good, further I'd be completing Silver/Gold quests which in any case would seem better to save until after 1.7 in order to get the great quest XP from these zones.

It seems like I have a couple other options
- PvP. Work on PVP ranks. Well, between the continuing server performance and lag issues and to a more minor extent queue times, my desire to bang my head against this one has dwindled significantly and awaiting them to fix it.
- Farm resources/gold. Blah.
- Spend time recruiting for the guild that I'm in that is losing 40-60 members a week due to inactive/disappearing members (2 week inactivity boot policy). Sounds fun don't it?
- Roleplay? Not my cup of tea so much, maybe if my drinking increases which it may.
- Achievements? Maybe, I've never been much of an achievement w**re so not too interested. Maybe if there were alternative prizes other than dyes. Did all the ones that awarded skill points.
- PTS? Maybe, but my time is somewhat limited and valuable (to me at least) and there is this underlying notion that bothers me of spending that time testing their product for no compensation for that time either as a wage for being a game tester or in-game rewards. Some might say the reward is helping shape the game etc etc, but 1) my time could be much better spent on alternative activities 2) judging from other posts, people that participate in a serious fashion and report bugs and whatnot don't seem to feel like their work is going anywhere. There's nothing more disappointing than putting a lot of time in and not seeing your work bear fruit. So I might hop on PTS for informational purposes only but not likely to go beyond that.

Between the major issues in PvP and not having a direction to go regarding knowing or not knowing CP implementation in the next couple patches, I'm seriously finding it hard to get excited to log in these days.

I want to be HOPEFUL as I have been since "beta" and as a long-time TES franchise fan but it's getting harder and harder every week. Not trying to hype it up or exaggerate, or speak for everyone, this is how I see it and maybe others are in the same boat.

IMHO, ZOS should have been having internal meetings since threads like this popped up after ESO live #8 as a high priority to discuss, strategize, and communicate to us, especially for an issue with any air of loss of progression involved. Maybe they have been and I'm just not seeing it. @ZOS you might be running the show and we agreed to the TOS and how you do your thing is up to y'all. What goes on inside the black box is a big mystery to me and I do realize there are a lot of moving parts I'm sure.

1) Regardless of TOS, customer satisfaction and retention should be a priority. If it's not obvious, I'll just state just in case ZOS doesn't have anyone employed with a business degree or business/marketing experience (I know, trying to be neutral, but sometimes to me at least it's not so obvious that they do have this) - it's customers that pay and that money provides for wages and the product for which without, there would not be this game. To act in ways that undermine this, for example:
- Adding confusion (including not clarifying when there is confusion - this also includes lack of information (for example, how the game works))
- Too much change (either changing too many things either back and forth (wishy-washy) or too much change in too short of a time span to be properly absorbed)
- Taking away progression that customers have been putting time and effort in (either real or perceived)
These all pose a RISK of dropping customer satisfaction (I am not going to say it's definite, but it is a likely consequence).

2) The lack of attention, communication, direction, and especially consideration to your older/long time dedicated player base chips away at the HOPE part of things, for me at least, due to a way of being treated/considered (think of it more as an ethical perspective). People aren't that stupid, they can sense when they are being shorted and if that happens it tends to stick. I know you can't please everyone and in business you generally try to please the most in order to maximize income and right now -maybe- you are trying harder to please the new player base as opposed to the veteran players who have put up with quite a lot and seem to be experiencing trust issues. It almost has this hey disregard the long time opinionated stuck in their ways players let's revamp this game and move on quick and hope for an influx of new player, but I sense this, real or my misperception, and it makes me feel like anything can happen at any time to just upheave caring about the player investment.

Anyway, take from that what you will.

Here is from this thread from Dec.:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and put this to rest. What Kai said a few days ago is correct. Just to make sure we're all on the same page, once Update 6 is released and you have at least one Veteran Rank character, all your characters will receive 30 Champion Points - no more, no less. This will only occur at the onset of Update 6; after this is released, you will gain Champion Points one at a time as designed.

A few months ago, it was said that we were tracking XP. However, this was still early in development and through internal testing and feedback, found that we needed to change our plans (and, honestly, this quite normal through the course of development). We understand that this was, indeed, a major change from what we were originally planning. In an effort to be open with everyone about how things were going and what was planned, it caused a great deal of confusion, and we sincerely apologize for that.

As it has been said a number of times, we certainly encourage you to hop on the PTS once this is available in January and try out the system. This is also a great chance to plan how you'd like to build your character once it's live!

Hope you all are enjoying the holidays, and we'll see you in the new year.

It's the last line that keeps standing out where Kai said and I quote "But we want to make sure that players who have already completed most of the content , are not disadvantaged in earnings of other points champion."
So what did he mean by that? I read it as they are still concerned and do want to compensate but have not yet decided how.