Princess_Asgari wrote: »Reflect is the only counter to the massive amount of how users in group pvp currently. With reflect being changed pvp will just be who gets the snipe off first .. Going to be a full archer game.
Suntzu1414 wrote: »NB's may not dominate in ESO.
But, We do have all threads on this board...
Kill Well
ST
This whole thread is a load of Bull ***. Zos do not list to this garbage. Reflective scales is fine. bolt escape was nerfed because you freakin sorcs could engage in a fight and then zap away. easy stay alive button. sorcs still use it that way. I see no difference other than it cost slightly more but if your running in the first place you really won't need magicka to fight after your 3 miles from your freakin enemy. Like xsorusb14_ESO said, DK's don't run, they fight. They take it all in the face and give it to you harder. I wish reflective scales lasted longer. What you all want to do is face roll DKs by taking one of their main skills away of crippling to make it insane to use. SO before you go convincing Zos to fix things that aren't broken, please feel free to pick one skill from your own class that makes it unique and is actually effective in pvp and suggest they increase its magicka cost, tweak it, nerf it.
if i can get the dang talons immunity timer to actually work for me... i may be able to actually fight some DKs:D
dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »I think that RS needs to be changed so that weapon projectiles aren't reflected. It can be compensated by reducing incoming damage by 40% or so. That way DKs are put on an equal footing with other classes who aren't able to stand in the middle of the field and laugh.
Saying all that however, after getting frustrated as a sniper with having to let DKs go past due to RS spamming, as a NB I have an entire bar dedicated to taking down DKs and now they're my most killed class.
For myself, it would be nice to have the change (NOT nerf) to RS, but I find it far more entertaining to kill them while they still think they're invulnerable.
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
I'll tell you more....
I'll tell you to make better use of Streak, Velocious Curse, Endless Fury and Resto Heavies none of which are reflected. The only reflected attack is Crystal Frags and if you're wearing S&B you can make those go through the scales too.
Extremely strong though they are, they are killable if you know how to play them, but obviously it's not a quick or easy fight. I'd rather see the damage output of Sorcs increased rather then see DKs nerfed because baddies keep smashing their faces against Scales.
"The only reflected attack is crystal frags" is a false statement. Yes you listed a few sorc class abilities which are not reflected (one was only just recently fixed to not reflect an explosion) and one weapon ability that is not reflected, but all are fairly laughably weak, with the possible exception of Streak irritation, against a DKs self heal and other counters. While going sword & board is an option, the stamina cost to the sorc is high, especially for just one reflect (assuming it doesn't bug or lag and hit the sorc anyway) and requires much greater resource consideration than what the DK must consider. If there was a way to have a 3rd weapon swap bar I'd definitely run S&B for the sole purpose of using against DKs but imo it's just not effective enough for the group/objective playstyle I prefer.
It isn't impossible for a sorc to kill a DK 1v1 but the sorc who does that has a much higher skill level than the DK. Personally I think it's far more efficient to wait for more people before engaging and using my "safe" weak ass abilities (the ones you mentioned) while those with hopefully better-hitting melee can do the heavy work. :-P
How is it a false statement if it's actually true? Crystal Frags IS the only Sorc class attack that is reflected by scales.
Also regarding the resource considerations you talked about, balanced builds always fair better than glass cannon builds in 1v1 or sustained combat. If you gonna fight a DK 1v1, you better have some stamina regen too, instead of plunging 160+ into magicka regen while your stamina is at 70. s&b on the Sorc works unbelievably well, a lot of top duellists use s&b on theirs.
Overall, the assessment that DKs are easier to play is true. It's also true that it requires slightly higher skill to win that fight. An average DK can be a tough opponent for a good Sorc. But guess what a) it's doable and b) the game is not balanced on 1v1. I can achieve much much higher kill streaks on my Sorc and dictate battles more through my Negates than I can on my DK.
I'm all for some Sorc love in terms of extra damage and some fixes to impen so crit surge works better, but otherwise I think the class is fine and so is the DK. And finally if I ever see a solo DK and I'm solo too, I always go for them. 7/10 times they'll be a player less honed in duelling and I'll kill them. The other 3/10 times, I can Bolt Escape away :P The only ones I fear are other Sorcs, because you can't disengage from the fight if it turns bad for you.
kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
Spamming means (at least for me) hammering one button like people in zergballs spam impulse. Using a defensive skill every 4 seconds as part of a rotation isn't spamming.
Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
Shadow Image is buggy as hell and while it might work fine in duels it's very unreliable in actual PvP.mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »if i can get the dang talons immunity timer to actually work for me... i may be able to actually fight some DKs:D
Talons, like all roots, offers no CC immunity. You can get taloned over and over.
If however you get hard CC'ed (like Invasion knock-down) and you CC break, you are immune to all hard CC and roots for the next 6".
In duels a lot of NB use Shadow Image to teleport away when in an sticky situation.
To be fair, my DK with 139 spell power only heals 450-525 (depending on target) with Flame Lash exploit.
Just to dispel it being a massive heal, it's decent for sure but not quite as powerful as that. And it does have a 4 second internal CD, and requires the target be exploitable.
Still good enough to have on the bar though! Carry on
As an emp it heals for 800-1.2k (On a level 49 with 90 spell damage, and the Imperial racical procs for 300-500)
Anywhom as pointed out above RS should not be nerfed if you're a projectile based build, it's just entirely contradictary. If you're a sorc, use 1h1s and reflect it back, FOR MORE DAMAGE for one. If you don't want to reflect it back, to bad, that's on you. As far as NB stamina based builds go, all you guys do is sit back and spam one ability and hope to win, one. PROJECTILE. Ability, so no, absolutely not, no one should be nerfed in this scenario, though I do agree with sorc damage buff. And as a v1 DK, in light armor, with a melee build, I cannot tell you how aggravating it is to spam reflect an entire fight because one person. With one lethal arrow, can be the difference between life and death, thanks to that *** healing debuff.
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »Shadow Image is buggy as hell and while it might work fine in duels it's very unreliable in actual PvP.mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »if i can get the dang talons immunity timer to actually work for me... i may be able to actually fight some DKs:D
Talons, like all roots, offers no CC immunity. You can get taloned over and over.
If however you get hard CC'ed (like Invasion knock-down) and you CC break, you are immune to all hard CC and roots for the next 6".
In duels a lot of NB use Shadow Image to teleport away when in an sticky situation.
Spells & Ranged Attacks... May as well reflect ballista fire while we are at it! Remove melee reflect, or spells. FFS the entire EP population is a DK Vamp with bows in one hand and a Impulse spamming Destro staff in the other.
Reflecting spells and ranged, some melee, and for 6-8 seconds, is a little much.
I am surprised the entire population isn't running a DK+Vamp+Bow+Destro...
Impulse +devouring swarm +reflective scales = rinse and repeat
Snipe +Reflective Scales +Poison Arrow, poison arrow, poison arrow...
Oh, and reflecting Ultimates? Do tell...
Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
Yeah. Needs fixing in some way.
Give it a 10% chance to reflect ranged...upgradeable with passives.
+ 100% ranged damage mitigation
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »I think that RS needs to be changed so that weapon projectiles aren't reflected. It can be compensated by reducing incoming damage by 40% or so. That way DKs are put on an equal footing with other classes who aren't able to stand in the middle of the field and laugh.
Saying all that however, after getting frustrated as a sniper with having to let DKs go past due to RS spamming, as a NB I have an entire bar dedicated to taking down DKs and now they're my most killed class.
For myself, it would be nice to have the change (NOT nerf) to RS, but I find it far more entertaining to kill them while they still think they're invulnerable.
No dice. Why? Why should magicka attacks be reflected and not weapon attacks, what's the reasonable justification? In fact one of the many complains about Snipe spam is there are so few ways to negate it.
You can use Eclipse, Ball of Lighting, Defensive Posture and Scales against magicka projectiles, but only the last can be used against arrows. What gives?
Bow projectiles also hit harder than magicka projectiles at the moment thanks to both higher base damage and:
a) Specific sets like Hawk's Eye, Archer's Mind etc.
b) Higher-scaling weapon damage through numerous skills
c) Flawless Dawnbreaker
d) Long-Shots passive along with increased range of abilities in Cyro and Reach passive from Alliance War
If anything, some other skills like Defensive Posture should reflect arrows when the attack is not from stealth (or otherwise you'd never land a stealthed snipe).
dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »Using block mitigates a large percentage of damage, especially using S&B. I've had my snipes hit for 2-300 instead of 1300-1400 with players blocking with S&B.
dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »By changing weapon projectiles so they aren't reflected it makes heavy armour a viable strategy now instead of an afterthought for the PvPers and a way of identifying the PvEers. Having a blocking char kitted in 5 pieces of heavy means that arrows and other weapon projectiles cause barely a scratch, maybe only 5-10% of the actual damage.
dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »Specifically regarding RS, this change would still allow players to stand there tanking and reflecting most abilities and attacks but having to sacrifice magicka regen and spell resistance (which wouldn't be an issue with RS). The only change is that they couldn't stand there tanking forever while they went to make a cup of tea.
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Nope, still no dice from me.dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »Using block mitigates a large percentage of damage, especially using S&B. I've had my snipes hit for 2-300 instead of 1300-1400 with players blocking with S&B.
Same level of mitigation in % applies to spell projectiles too, tell me something new.dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »By changing weapon projectiles so they aren't reflected it makes heavy armour a viable strategy now instead of an afterthought for the PvPers and a way of identifying the PvEers. Having a blocking char kitted in 5 pieces of heavy means that arrows and other weapon projectiles cause barely a scratch, maybe only 5-10% of the actual damage.
Which would still be a higher level of threat than what is posed by ranged magicka builds when you can put Defensive Posture or Scales on. You're missing the core of my argument. Magicka projectiles can be returned back to the sender multiple ways, they also do less damage and they get mitigated by two different types of armour (Heavy & Light) instead of one.
Heavy armour needs more resource sustain. There's not point sitting there holding block if casting any stamina or magicka abilities costs you a bomb. That's the problem. You're trying to get skills nerfed so that a sub-par type of armour gets used, instead of wanting that armour buffed.dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »Specifically regarding RS, this change would still allow players to stand there tanking and reflecting most abilities and attacks but having to sacrifice magicka regen and spell resistance (which wouldn't be an issue with RS). The only change is that they couldn't stand there tanking forever while they went to make a cup of tea.
That's not what they'll have to sacrifice. They'll have to sacrifice more stamina and magicka. Magicka for the heals as some of your damage would get through and stamina because they'll have to block your arrows, which costs stamina.
Overall, I don't think you're getting the mood right now. The mood is against bows which can do more burst damage and DPS than all other ranged weapons and abilities, from farther and with fewer ways of mitigation.
If nerfs come to Reflective Scales, which is possible, they will certainly not be in a way that reinforce the current snipe-spamming meta that has emerged since last patch. Much as you'd like it to
Joy_Division wrote: »And what's this about firing THREE lethal arrows, THEN the DK reflects, and all three get reflected back? Is that even possible or are you just exaggerating so your single button mashing play style will kill anyone in cyrodiil?
Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
Yeah. Needs fixing in some way.
Give it a 10% chance to reflect ranged...upgradeable with passives.
+ 100% ranged damage mitigation
Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Every block/dodge/sneak eats my damage until helpless prey.
To the other hut saying you cant be hit by 3 lethal arrows...yes you can from 1st hand experience.
Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Every block/dodge/sneak eats my damage until helpless prey.
To the other hut saying you cant be hit by 3 lethal arrows...yes you can from 1st hand experience.
Reflect comes with like10m long flapping dragon wings. If you are shooting a single target with a single target skill you should be able to see10meter long dragon wings coming out of that same target. Other than dragon leap it has to be the most explicit, noticeable skill in the game. If we are required to listen for whistles from bow users perhaps the bow user can be required to look for 10m long dragon wings.