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REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF

  • Columba
    Columba
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    or put a cool down on it?
  • CP5
    CP5
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    I just want to say this. No other defensive skill is able to completely turn as much damage as RS. Other defensive skills either give a chance to dodge attacks and reflect none of the damage, buff your defense and only deal some damage (razor armor or lightning form), or put up a shield with finite health.

    You could invite EVERY enemy player on the server to use Meteor and all together drop it on one dk, but if that dk uses RS then EVERY ULTIMATE LAUNCHED will be reflected and all of that damage will 1.) get negated, 2.) get buffed and sent back to the attackers. So under that volley, from the entire server population onto one person, will not only get negated but also that dk will be dealing that much damage with one skill.

    My main problem with RS is that it negates everything from light attacks to ultimate's and is just good at everything. DK's have frequently said l2p in regards to people getting killed in melee range, but at a range there is little you can do to damage them. The DK's class weakness is their lack of ranged skills but is the ability to effortlessly counter so much with only one skill not over powered?
  • Spangla
    Spangla
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    Varicite wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    ZOS

    Cripple - Why is this being reflected its a DOT. It most certainly is not a projectile.

    Funnel Health - "Funnels Health FROM the Target" Doesnt shoot anything at it, takes health FROM why is this being reflected?

    Just because? Its dk skill so this is fine?

    IF i say..IF you look at the screen when you cast a projectile leaves fromy you and goes to the target. Something that does not happen with sorcs curse and thunder.

    l2p,cry less and you might avoid your destiny: constantly-buffed-crying-Nightblades and all classes nubsniping allover

    Genuine lol

    I wouldn't expect you to be able to read and understand the tooltip. Surprised you can read at all Nicko.

    I can't understand your last paragraph as it looks like it was written by a buffoon.

    Oh wait.... It was - Nicko LPS xd


    Mr brain dead with style:

    Whatever the tooltip says a projectile leaves from you and goes to the targeted enemy. Is your iq high enough to understand that?

    Ps: i speak 3 languages in total you and the other brainless dude that comment my writing are very welcome to speak with me in my main language if you cant speak at all what more from a buffoon will you be?

    Think of the last.

    Then there is a fault with the animation.

    I didn't realise that other languages were not aware of a space-bar?

    I'm tired of coming up against DK mindless flaming and insulting when you point out that their skills are somewhat ridiculous.

    I remember the bash threads:) Anyone who suggested nerf was evil and a victim of l2b nub crap.

    L2P is a cop out defense of an indefensible position


    Bash didn't have anything to do w/ DKs....

    Classic argue for the sake of argue.... Grass isn't green dammit!

    Was more pointing out that the entire argument is completely irrelevant to the thread, honestly.

    But hey, on the topic of Scales, the ability will still be 4x more powerful than the 1h&s version while still reflecting all projectiles, instead of just magical ones.

    And it's not limited to a single target (and CC breakable) like Eclipse.

    I'd be more comfortable w/ raising the limit of reflected projectiles to 6, but the ability is still incredibly powerful either way.

    To be fair it was the chains then bash combo that was the problem.... So... Sort of was relevant to dk's.

    Anyway you missed the point read again.

  • Milf_Hero
    Milf_Hero
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    Hmm. Well REFLECTIVE SCALES IS DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED to the current change zos is going to put out on the PTS. That's the verdict. ADJUDICATED guilty! lol. jk. Still has to go through its (more or less) fair trial. So unless people can put forth a 100% logic solid argument to why making this change is freakin terrible and falls under the categories of unbalanced, broken,"not working as intended," guaranteed(key word guaranteed) to be the CAUSE of the majority amount of subscribers to unsubscribe, and or ultimately lead to the COMEPLETE AND UTTER DEMISE of TESO, nothing will change. I don't see the above conditions having a chance of being met. WHY? EXHIBIT A! (lol to much law and order and my criminal justice class) For example You could change rushed ceremony, or whatever that awesome healing skill's name is for Templars, nerfed to do half the amount of healing it does. The reason they could give is that other class healers thought that was unfair because they don't have support healing skills that are nearly as good as that skill the Templar has. Its a unique skill to Templars that make them better than other people in a certain area. SO...nerf it! Can you give a reason to why a Templar should be able to do this the way he does before the nerf is implemented? NO. Not really other than, damn it, I like this skill. I want it. I like it how it is. don't change it. It only seems more fair to other people if it is nerfed. Thus is the ways of nerf theory. Probably should be LAW because, lez-B honest, it happens every time.
    Edited by Milf_Hero on December 18, 2014 9:18AM
    You name it, and ill kill it.
  • Milf_Hero
    Milf_Hero
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    Also I like to add that I find it funny that skills are changed to match PVP standards of balanced and not PVE standards of balanced. No one would care about any of the skills. They would just ask for more skills or adjustments to their own skills to prevent the game from being stale. I don't think people would really care if DKs could reflect x amount of projectiles in 4 seconds if he was the one on your side. What ever benefits you is best right? <--- ammunition that can be used for both sides of the argument/debate/friendly sharing of thoughts and ideas (forums). lol... Its just about which ever side is louder.
    Edited by Milf_Hero on December 18, 2014 9:26AM
    You name it, and ill kill it.
  • Rylana
    Rylana
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    But its the only counter to my ranged playstyle that protects me from ever having to actually fight someone or take damage

    NERF PL0X, SAVE ME THE TROUBLE OF LEARNING TO PLAY GAEM
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  • Sanct16
    Sanct16
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    CP5 wrote: »
    I just want to say this. No other defensive skill is able to completely turn as much damage as RS. Other defensive skills either give a chance to dodge attacks and reflect none of the damage, buff your defense and only deal some damage (razor armor or lightning form), or put up a shield with finite health.

    You could invite EVERY enemy player on the server to use Meteor and all together drop it on one dk, but if that dk uses RS then EVERY ULTIMATE LAUNCHED will be reflected and all of that damage will 1.) get negated, 2.) get buffed and sent back to the attackers. So under that volley, from the entire server population onto one person, will not only get negated but also that dk will be dealing that much damage with one skill.

    My main problem with RS is that it negates everything from light attacks to ultimate's and is just good at everything. DK's have frequently said l2p in regards to people getting killed in melee range, but at a range there is little you can do to damage them. The DK's class weakness is their lack of ranged skills but is the ability to effortlessly counter so much with only one skill not over powered?

    So what you say is as long as you are many, you should not have to think about what you do? There are still plenty of ranged options to damage the DK and there is absolutely nothing he can do against it.
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  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    Rylana wrote: »
    But its the only counter to my ranged playstyle that protects me from ever having to actually fight someone or take damage

    NERF PL0X, SAVE ME THE TROUBLE OF LEARNING TO PLAY GAEM

    My archer is a DK. You aren't countering my ranged playstyle anyway. There's nothing I love more than unloading my burst into flappy wings.

    I've played it since early access and was told more times than I can count how much bows suck, and how using them on a DK is a complete waste. I can't help but find some irony in that.

    I don't have any issues w/ Scales being balanced to be more in line w/ the other reflection-type abilities.

    Let's be completely honest here; Blazing Shield was given a cap to the damage it can reflect for the very same reason that Scales is being pruned. Yes, it sucks that I'll be eating another nerf to my class, but if it's for the sake of game balance, I'm cool w/ that.
    Edited by Varicite on December 18, 2014 2:32PM
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Sanct16 wrote: »
    CP5 wrote: »
    I just want to say this. No other defensive skill is able to completely turn as much damage as RS. Other defensive skills either give a chance to dodge attacks and reflect none of the damage, buff your defense and only deal some damage (razor armor or lightning form), or put up a shield with finite health.

    You could invite EVERY enemy player on the server to use Meteor and all together drop it on one dk, but if that dk uses RS then EVERY ULTIMATE LAUNCHED will be reflected and all of that damage will 1.) get negated, 2.) get buffed and sent back to the attackers. So under that volley, from the entire server population onto one person, will not only get negated but also that dk will be dealing that much damage with one skill.

    My main problem with RS is that it negates everything from light attacks to ultimate's and is just good at everything. DK's have frequently said l2p in regards to people getting killed in melee range, but at a range there is little you can do to damage them. The DK's class weakness is their lack of ranged skills but is the ability to effortlessly counter so much with only one skill not over powered?

    So what you say is as long as you are many, you should not have to think about what you do? There are still plenty of ranged options to damage the DK and there is absolutely nothing he can do against it.

    What i'm saying is that for a defensive skill RS goes far beyond what anything else can do. Other skills either provide a chance to avoid damage or lower the damage you take. RS allows you to turn an any amount of incoming damage to zero, then buff it by 30% and throw it back at the attackers.

    And the only counter play for RS is to either remake your build to fight the dk in their strong area, be a dk yourself to reflect, or to wait until they are done. There is no counter aside from waiting that can't be easily avoided by the dk and when I brought up the example with the entire server attacking one person, is there any other way someone could survive an attack like that? Is it balanced that a dk, with one normal skill, can counter any number of ultimate's so long as they can keep RS up?
  • Grim13
    Grim13
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    Spangla wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    ZOS

    Cripple - Why is this being reflected its a DOT. It most certainly is not a projectile.

    Funnel Health - "Funnels Health FROM the Target" Doesnt shoot anything at it, takes health FROM why is this being reflected?

    Just because? Its dk skill so this is fine?

    IF i say..IF you look at the screen when you cast a projectile leaves fromy you and goes to the target. Something that does not happen with sorcs curse and thunder.

    l2p,cry less and you might avoid your destiny: constantly-buffed-crying-Nightblades and all classes nubsniping allover

    Genuine lol

    I wouldn't expect you to be able to read and understand the tooltip. Surprised you can read at all Nicko.

    I can't understand your last paragraph as it looks like it was written by a buffoon.

    Oh wait.... It was - Nicko LPS xd


    Mr brain dead with style:

    Whatever the tooltip says a projectile leaves from you and goes to the targeted enemy. Is your iq high enough to understand that?

    Ps: i speak 3 languages in total you and the other brainless dude that comment my writing are very welcome to speak with me in my main language if you cant speak at all what more from a buffoon will you be?

    Think of the last.

    Then there is a fault with the animation.

    I didn't realise that other languages were not aware of a space-bar?

    I'm tired of coming up against DK mindless flaming and insulting when you point out that their skills are somewhat ridiculous.

    I remember the bash threads:) Anyone who suggested nerf was evil and a victim of l2b nub crap.

    L2P is a cop out defense of an indefensible position


    Bash didn't have anything to do w/ DKs....

    Classic argue for the sake of argue.... Grass isn't green dammit!

    Was more pointing out that the entire argument is completely irrelevant to the thread, honestly.

    But hey, on the topic of Scales, the ability will still be 4x more powerful than the 1h&s version while still reflecting all projectiles, instead of just magical ones.

    And it's not limited to a single target (and CC breakable) like Eclipse.

    I'd be more comfortable w/ raising the limit of reflected projectiles to 6, but the ability is still incredibly powerful either way.

    To be fair it was the chains then bash combo that was the problem.... So... Sort of was relevant to dk's.

    Anyway you missed the point read again.

    Chains, Talons, Bash..

    Or my most hated: Invasion, Talons, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash...
    Da'Mara
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    AD Thornblade NA

    Roughly half of the population's IQs are below average... think about it! : I
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    Class Representative
    CP5 wrote: »

    What i'm saying is that for a defensive skill RS goes far beyond what anything else can do. Other skills either provide a chance to avoid damage or lower the damage you take. RS allows you to turn an any amount of incoming damage to zero, then buff it by 30% and throw it back at the attackers.

    And the only counter play for RS is to either remake your build to fight the dk in their strong area, be a dk yourself to reflect, or to wait until they are done. There is no counter aside from waiting that can't be easily avoided by the dk and when I brought up the example with the entire server attacking one person, is there any other way someone could survive an attack like that? Is it balanced that a dk, with one normal skill, can counter any number of ultimate's so long as they can keep RS up?

    Excessive use of adjectives and adverbs turn otherwise reasonable statements into nonsensical hyperbole.

    Think about the mechanics of Blazing shield and think about the mechanics of Reflective scales. Both negate incoming damage and both throw it back at the attacker. That doesn't sound "far beyond...anything else" to me.

    It is not true those are the "only" counters to RS. People who overspecialize in one form of attack will find themselves at a disadvantage - as they should be for being a one-trick pony.

    There are counters, available to every class and every weapon line, that a RS using DK is vulnerable to. If this stuff is "easily" avoidable, that is immaterial to RS as players using those skills will struggle against a non RS user.

    The "entire" server? OK, yeah sure. And, yes, there is "any" other way someone could survive that - google "Krim."

    I'm guessing the "any" number of ultimates affected by RS is one. Let's see:
    Radial sweep? - no
    Nova? - no
    Right of Passage? - no.
    Dragon Leap? - no
    Standard of Might? - no.
    Magma Armor? - no.
    Soul Harvest? - no? (dont play NB).
    Veil of Blades? - no
    Soul Shred? - no.
    Strom Atronach? - no.
    Negate? - no
    Overload? - one form is and one form is not.
    Soul Assault? - no
    Dawnbreaker? - no
    Meteor? - yes.
    Batswarm? - no.
    Werewolf? - no.

    But I really think it is ridiculous to debate about this skill now as we do not know what other skills are getting adjusted and we do not know how Cyrodiil will play out after 1.6 goes live.
    Edited by Joy_Division on December 18, 2014 8:51PM
  • Durham
    Durham
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    Dk has no range ... what is a dk suppose to do? Bow users just want easy kills from safe distances.... Btw if a dk is spamming reflect its not doing much else....

    Maybe make the change if a dk has a ranged weapon out it cannot use the ability...
    PVP DEADWAIT
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  • Kraven
    Kraven
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    Durham wrote: »

    Maybe make the change if a dk has a ranged weapon out it cannot use the ability...

    I just came because I can't believe this thread is still going and the rage is quite delicious.

    This is a TERRIBLE idea. Start basing what class skills can and can't be used based on what weapon you have? That's all kinds of trouble no one wants.
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    to be continued... Nevermind, no longer "to be continued"
  • Milf_Hero
    Milf_Hero
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    Grim13 wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    Spangla wrote: »
    ZOS

    Cripple - Why is this being reflected its a DOT. It most certainly is not a projectile.

    Funnel Health - "Funnels Health FROM the Target" Doesnt shoot anything at it, takes health FROM why is this being reflected?

    Just because? Its dk skill so this is fine?

    IF i say..IF you look at the screen when you cast a projectile leaves fromy you and goes to the target. Something that does not happen with sorcs curse and thunder.

    l2p,cry less and you might avoid your destiny: constantly-buffed-crying-Nightblades and all classes nubsniping allover

    Genuine lol

    I wouldn't expect you to be able to read and understand the tooltip. Surprised you can read at all Nicko.

    I can't understand your last paragraph as it looks like it was written by a buffoon.

    Oh wait.... It was - Nicko LPS xd


    Mr brain dead with style:

    Whatever the tooltip says a projectile leaves from you and goes to the targeted enemy. Is your iq high enough to understand that?

    Ps: i speak 3 languages in total you and the other brainless dude that comment my writing are very welcome to speak with me in my main language if you cant speak at all what more from a buffoon will you be?

    Think of the last.

    Then there is a fault with the animation.

    I didn't realise that other languages were not aware of a space-bar?

    I'm tired of coming up against DK mindless flaming and insulting when you point out that their skills are somewhat ridiculous.

    I remember the bash threads:) Anyone who suggested nerf was evil and a victim of l2b nub crap.

    L2P is a cop out defense of an indefensible position


    Bash didn't have anything to do w/ DKs....

    Classic argue for the sake of argue.... Grass isn't green dammit!

    Was more pointing out that the entire argument is completely irrelevant to the thread, honestly.

    But hey, on the topic of Scales, the ability will still be 4x more powerful than the 1h&s version while still reflecting all projectiles, instead of just magical ones.

    And it's not limited to a single target (and CC breakable) like Eclipse.

    I'd be more comfortable w/ raising the limit of reflected projectiles to 6, but the ability is still incredibly powerful either way.

    To be fair it was the chains then bash combo that was the problem.... So... Sort of was relevant to dk's.

    Anyway you missed the point read again.

    Chains, Talons, Bash..

    Or my most hated: Invasion, Talons, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash...

    WTF are you people talking about? who the hell bashes still? Unless your casting an interruptible ability then no one should be bashing you to death like they use to back in freakin version 1.2 Plus, this thread isn't about bashing. its not about chains, its not about mutha freakin dorthy in the wizard of OZ this is about RS. Keep it on track ppl. RS needs nerf or is doesn't?
    Edited by Milf_Hero on December 18, 2014 9:33PM
    You name it, and ill kill it.
  • CP5
    CP5
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    CP5 wrote: »

    What i'm saying is that for a defensive skill RS goes far beyond what anything else can do. Other skills either provide a chance to avoid damage or lower the damage you take. RS allows you to turn an any amount of incoming damage to zero, then buff it by 30% and throw it back at the attackers.

    And the only counter play for RS is to either remake your build to fight the dk in their strong area, be a dk yourself to reflect, or to wait until they are done. There is no counter aside from waiting that can't be easily avoided by the dk and when I brought up the example with the entire server attacking one person, is there any other way someone could survive an attack like that? Is it balanced that a dk, with one normal skill, can counter any number of ultimate's so long as they can keep RS up?

    Excessive use of adjectives and adverbs turn otherwise reasonable statements into nonsensical hyperbole.

    Think about the mechanics of Blazing shield and think about the mechanics of Reflective scales. Both negate incoming damage and both throw it back at the attacker. That doesn't sound "far beyond...anything else" to me.

    It is not true those are the "only" counters to RS. People who overspecialize in one form of attack will find themselves at a disadvantage - as they should be for being a one-trick pony.

    There are counters, available to every class and every weapon line, that a RS using DK is vulnerable to. If this stuff is "easily" avoidable, that is immaterial to RS as players using those skills will struggle against a non RS user.

    The "entire" server? OK, yeah sure. And, yes, there is "any" other way someone could survive that - google "Krim."

    I'm guessing the "any" number of ultimates affected by RS is one. Let's see:
    Radial sweep? - no
    Nova? - no
    Right of Passage? - no.
    Dragon Leap? - no
    Standard of Might? - no.
    Magma Armor? - no.
    Soul Harvest? - no? (dont play NB).
    Veil of Blades? - no
    Soul Shred? - no.
    Strom Atronach? - no.
    Negate? - no
    Overload? - one form is and one form is not.
    Soul Assault? - no
    Dawnbreaker? - no
    Meteor? - yes.
    Batswarm? - no.
    Werewolf? - no.

    But I really think it is ridiculous to debate about this skill now as we do not know what other skills are getting adjusted and we do not know how Cyrodiil will play out after 1.6 goes live.

    When I rant I tend to go a bit overboard. This was written after taking a break from ESO, then coming back to do some non-vet pvp and seeing a very large number of my enemies running as DK's (all in the upper 40's) was a bit irritating. Going to try to reply to this without any of that fluff mixed in.

    You first (this reply being based off of this post) mention how Blazing shield and Reflective scales both return damage. My main point between the two is where as the damage RS can reflect is limited only by the number of enemies attacking you (hence the entire server attacking example), Blazing shield can only return a finite amount, and it is a damage shield so the damage it can absorb is limited as well.

    You bring up aoe as a counter for RS since you can damage the dk when they have scales up. As someone who has been using the bow from when I started this would apply to volley and arrow spray. Volley (from my use) seems to have a 3s delay between when you confirm the aoe you want to hit and when the arrows start to fall. In this time with the game encouraging mobility it is unlikely someone will stand and wait for the arrows to fall. Arrow spray has a 20m range, and gap closers have a 22m range. DK's have the longest range gap closer in the game (Take Flight) so they won't be using that often, but like most classes dk's use weapons to cover the gaps in skills, and with Invasion dk's have, from my experience, little trouble getting to you.

    And to clarify, my point with "the entire enemy server population attacking you at once" was more an example to say, in my opinion, the problem with RS. It has no limit and only gets stronger the more people who are attacking you. Damage shields like Blazing shield and Hardened Ward only protect against a set amount of damage, and gain nothing from your armor. RS can reflect infinite damage in its 4s window. Armor buffing skills like Lightning Form or Spiked Armor make you take less damage but you still receive damage, and the damage those skills deal is either from proximity (lightning form's aoe) or a flat value (spiked armors melee damage "return"). NB's and medium armor users, along with some class skills make dodges and misses apply a random chance to avoid all damage from an attack. No damage is returned from misses or dodged attacks and it is only ever a chance.

    RS is a guarantee to take an infinite amount of single target ranged skills, negate all of the damage they would do, and return 100%+ of the damage. I just think the real question is what Reflective Scales should be as a skill, because as it is now, in my opinion it is more than just a defensive skill.

    Also as a quick thing on ultimate's. Yes, from my irritation I went overboard with the amount of ultimate's reflected. In my opinion, since it is more of a weapon than a power skill Overload's light attacks should be reflected, but I think, not sure but believe I saw somewhere, that the heavy attack was also reflected. The mages guild ultimate doesn't seem to be used much since it is not that strong as is and against anyone keeping reflects up is simply just another projectile.

    Again, sorry for the rant, just needed to put my original post up just to vent after an irritating night of facing what seemed to only be dk's. This just comes down to the term "projectile" being thrown on so many skills, including many that shouldn't be projectiles (like the volatile familiar's explosion if it is still reflected). I would honestly just hope that ZOS looks at the skill and clearly defines its intended role in the game with 1.6, guess we will see.
  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    Durham wrote: »
    Dk has no range ... what is a dk suppose to do? Bow users just want easy kills from safe distances.... Btw if a dk is spamming reflect its not doing much else....

    Maybe make the change if a dk has a ranged weapon out it cannot use the ability...

    This is not better than just limiting the projectiles it can reflect, imo.
  • Kromus
    Kromus
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    Think about the mechanics of Blazing shield and think about the mechanics of Reflective scales. Both negate incoming damage and both throw it back at the attacker. That doesn't sound "far beyond...anything else" to me.

    True, but there is a twist, huge twist. RS can negate unlimited damage per cast, and Blazing Shield only 1200 for top build Templars with ~4k health. There is another twist, RS returns amplified damage to attacker (120%) while Blazing Shield reflect 50% of absorbed damage which would be ~600, tho it would affect all players in area. And, there is another twist, RS reflect attacks from range and BS only in melee range. Could also note that no matter how much sparkles and effects you have on screen in heat of action, you can always see Templar with BS shining like a light bulb, which can't be said for DK and RS.

    You are free to make a survey and ask any experienced mmo player what he thinks about low cost spammable skill, that completely negate unlimited number of range attacks for its duration, with no penalty, cd or any other limitation and check the answer. No need to mention which game, class etc. only skill as such. Pretty sure all will say its OP, no matter what.
  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    So with crushing shock thats what 1 crushing shock and 1 ranged and then RS is busted? This is going to be great...
    Edited by Armitas on December 19, 2014 7:40PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Milf_Hero
    Milf_Hero
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    Kromus wrote: »
    Think about the mechanics of Blazing shield and think about the mechanics of Reflective scales. Both negate incoming damage and both throw it back at the attacker. That doesn't sound "far beyond...anything else" to me.

    True, but there is a twist, huge twist. RS can negate unlimited damage per cast, and Blazing Shield only 1200 for top build Templars with ~4k health. There is another twist, RS returns amplified damage to attacker (120%) while Blazing Shield reflect 50% of absorbed damage which would be ~600, tho it would affect all players in area. And, there is another twist, RS reflect attacks from range and BS only in melee range. Could also note that no matter how much sparkles and effects you have on screen in heat of action, you can always see Templar with BS shining like a light bulb, which can't be said for DK and RS.

    You are free to make a survey and ask any experienced mmo player what he thinks about low cost spammable skill, that completely negate unlimited number of range attacks for its duration, with no penalty, cd or any other limitation and check the answer. No need to mention which game, class etc. only skill as such. Pretty sure all will say its OP, no matter what.

    i just want to correct you on something kronos, it cost as much as chains and more the DK whip. It cost me 395 for what I wear. The skills that are ment to spam (just an educated guess on how ZOS thought things might work) are in 200 cost range and not close to the 400 cost range like reflective scales is. So it isn't low cost initially. By itself the 4 seconds give you time to recover most of the cost. Though if your using other magicka skills you would run out of magicka if said dk had no pots and/or was wearing light armor.
    You name it, and ill kill it.
  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    I agree, it's only low cost for magicka builds.

    While I've always thought that Scales could use some balancing, I don't think that making it unusable for stamina builds (looking right at you, Bolt Escape) is the right direction.
  • Radolfus
    Radolfus
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    Sypher wrote: »
    Did you guys not see the recent patch notes?
    Elder Scrolls Online Patch 1.5.7

    Dragonknight (Draconic Power)

    Reflective Scales: This ability no longer reflects melee abilities and only reflects projectiles. We also reduced the duration from 6-8 seconds down to 4 seconds.


    Good Job OP... You got it nerfed.. Happy?!


    I wonder if they're gonna cry OP on my underwear and have that nerfed too… don't let them nerf my underwear Sypher :0

    @RaddyBK
    Radolfus {Beast STDK}
    Radolfen {MGDK}
    RADOLFUS II {Retired DK}
    Channel Rad Tribes {Sorc}


    "Rad you always suck for 2 or so months then come back as this OP being man.. - Jago.

    "He's using poisons on his shield... At what point did he revert to this style of cheeeeeeeeese yo"

    "#FreeLemur <

    My Brother in Tank Yo
  • Nijjion
    Nijjion
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    Well we know why they did the excessive nerf now.

    I guess the new skill that they said in the live cast is nice but I'd rather not have it and they just do a BE type nerf to scales.
    NijjijjioN - DK - AR27
    NijjioN - NB -
    Daggerfall Covenant
    The Nice Guys Guild
    EverQuest -> Dark Age of Camelot -> Ragnarok Online -> Cabal Online -> Guild Wars 1 -> Warhammer Online -> Vindictus -> SWTOR -> Tera -> Guild Wars 2 -> Elder Scrolls Online ->

    Eagerly awaiting Camelot Unchained.
  • Durham
    Durham
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    Just give everyone a free bow ... i see far more bows then wings ... nerf bows please...
    PVP DEADWAIT
    PVE Eternal Destiny
  • Cody
    Cody
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    CP5 wrote: »

    What i'm saying is that for a defensive skill RS goes far beyond what anything else can do. Other skills either provide a chance to avoid damage or lower the damage you take. RS allows you to turn an any amount of incoming damage to zero, then buff it by 30% and throw it back at the attackers.

    And the only counter play for RS is to either remake your build to fight the dk in their strong area, be a dk yourself to reflect, or to wait until they are done. There is no counter aside from waiting that can't be easily avoided by the dk and when I brought up the example with the entire server attacking one person, is there any other way someone could survive an attack like that? Is it balanced that a dk, with one normal skill, can counter any number of ultimate's so long as they can keep RS up?

    Think about the mechanics of Blazing shield and think about the mechanics of Reflective scales. Both negate incoming damage and both throw it back at the attacker. That doesn't sound "far beyond...anything else" to me.

    It is not true those are the "only" counters to RS. People who overspecialize in one form of attack will find themselves at a disadvantage - as they should be for being a one-trick pony.

    There are counters, available to every class and every weapon line, that a RS using DK is vulnerable to. If this stuff is "easily" avoidable, that is immaterial to RS as players using those skills will struggle against a non RS user.

    The "entire" server? OK, yeah sure. And, yes, there is "any" other way someone could survive that - google "Krim."

    I'm guessing the "any" number of ultimates affected by RS is one. Let's see:
    Radial sweep? - no
    Nova? - no
    Right of Passage? - no.
    Dragon Leap? - no
    Standard of Might? - no.
    Magma Armor? - no.
    Soul Harvest? - no? (dont play NB).
    Veil of Blades? - no
    Soul Shred? - no.
    Strom Atronach? - no.
    Negate? - no
    Overload? - one form is and one form is not.
    Soul Assault? - no
    Dawnbreaker? - no
    Meteor? - yes.
    Batswarm? - no.
    Werewolf? - no.

    But I really think it is ridiculous to debate about this skill now as we do not know what other skills are getting adjusted and we do not know how Cyrodiil will play out after 1.6 goes live.

    fixed:) part of your response was irrelavant:)

    plz continue. this convo has me interested
    Edited by Cody on December 21, 2014 6:24AM
  • Nicko_Lps
    Nicko_Lps
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    Cody wrote: »
    Kromus wrote: »
    Nicko_Lps wrote: »
    @Milf_Hero its not about being on my side is actually being accurate to wh
    Kromus wrote: »
    Nicko_Lps wrote: »

    A templar dont need to use projectiles vs DK

    Also in case you dont know Eclipse reflects soul assault not only DK's reflect ultimates right? but in this case you guys have a prob with the DK's cause u dont have anything better to do .I would preffer being able to reflect soul assault that is twice lethal as 4 x shooting stars... L2P
    Also in case you dont know No2 blazing shield bugs(exploit?) and reflects all projectiles the first 2-3 sec of cast that does not annoy you cause u didnt even notice it right?

    This is not quite true or at least we can say it depends on situation. Unless Eclipse is on DK you don't have much choice in your range class abilities to do damage. Sun fire, javelin and solar flare gets reflected and only left is mediocre damage from Spear shard aoe, or to go melee with Puncturing strikes and use Blazing shield for protection and some damage.

    Personally, don't see problem in it as we (templars) still have option to counter RS and/or do some damage in periods when we can't apply Eclipse. That is cool thing, as it is not guaranteed counter since it depends on current DK immunity status whether you can apply it or not, which gives better fights overall.

    Eclipse reflecting Soul Assault is neat ability and by my opinion right where it should be in class balance, due to:
    - Soul Assault casters are puss..s (except if they are healers)
    - you need good timing for it to work
    - it's clearly visible on target at any given moment
    - it can only reflect one Soul strike as you would hardly have time to cast it on two targets using SS on you
    - allow for that priceless "oh, yeah" moment :)

    Don't think what you say for BS reflecting all projectiles for first 2-3 seconds is true in normal conditions. Can you please elaborate a bit how you got to that conclusion?

    I dont know how it bugs-exploits and reflects back projectiles but as far as i know there was a patch that fixed random dk and templar reflects without any ability active to be responsible for that reflect. I remember how and why dk rs were buging but honestly i aint gonna give you that kind of tip for an exploit..

    A templar solo on a keep wall at real life dawn reflecting crystal shards so i gone back and put on my skills crushing shock that i know its being reflected and guess what.. It was comming back at me lol

    Also a templar has no reason to spam blazin shield on a keep wall like some dk's do. Im more than 100% sure of what ive seen and to be honest its not the first time that blazing shield reflects back at me lol

    Have fun and have in mind using an exploit isnt the best thing you have to do..
    If you work it out

    My question was to give us some feedback about how can you be sure its Blazing Shield that reflected your spells. Did it show Blazing Shield at death recap even tho you were out of range for it to hit you? Are you sure Templar you are talking about did not have Defensive Posture under that blazing shield? How many people were hitting that Templar at same time as you did? A lot of useful info is missing in order to evaluate whether what you are saying is correct or not, and not to blindly trust what your eyes saw.

    Saying how Templar have no reason to use BS at specific location is just absurd. BS is supposed to absorb incoming damage and you were damaging him, thus there is a reason for Templar to use it. It matters none is it at wall, flag, open field etc.

    blazing shield does not reflect spells.

    i have played since beta, and not one time have i ever witnessed blazing shields reflecting ranged projectiles of any kind

    Mr.So sure about it,

    Im here since beta myself and im sure about those random reflects on DK and templar,you may go back on the patch notes and search when it was actually fixed. Im not going to do that for you.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    Class Representative
    Kromus wrote: »
    Think about the mechanics of Blazing shield and think about the mechanics of Reflective scales. Both negate incoming damage and both throw it back at the attacker. That doesn't sound "far beyond...anything else" to me.

    True, but there is a twist, huge twist. RS can negate unlimited damage per cast, and Blazing Shield only 1200 for top build Templars with ~4k health. There is another twist, RS returns amplified damage to attacker (120%) while Blazing Shield reflect 50% of absorbed damage which would be ~600, tho it would affect all players in area. And, there is another twist, RS reflect attacks from range and BS only in melee range. Could also note that no matter how much sparkles and effects you have on screen in heat of action, you can always see Templar with BS shining like a light bulb, which can't be said for DK and RS.

    You are free to make a survey and ask any experienced mmo player what he thinks about low cost spammable skill, that completely negate unlimited number of range attacks for its duration, with no penalty, cd or any other limitation and check the answer. No need to mention which game, class etc. only skill as such. Pretty sure all will say its OP, no matter what.

    Yes, I know. Experienced MMO players will always says something is OP without actually considering the circumstances around a particular skill. This forum is ample evidence of that.

    And by the way, I wasn't making a statement whether blazing shield or RS was better than the other or whether or not one was OP and one was fine. Just that they perform similar functions (albeit in different ways) such that RS is not "far beyond...anything else". IMHO, there are times I prefer blazing shield because this mitigates all damage and returns damage to all players next to me. And there are times when I prefer RS (namely when I am not threatened with melee).
    Edited by Joy_Division on December 21, 2014 3:21PM
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    Class Representative
    CP5 wrote: »
    CP5 wrote: »

    What i'm saying is that for a defensive skill RS goes far beyond what anything else can do. Other skills either provide a chance to avoid damage or lower the damage you take. RS allows you to turn an any amount of incoming damage to zero, then buff it by 30% and throw it back at the attackers.

    And the only counter play for RS is to either remake your build to fight the dk in their strong area, be a dk yourself to reflect, or to wait until they are done. There is no counter aside from waiting that can't be easily avoided by the dk and when I brought up the example with the entire server attacking one person, is there any other way someone could survive an attack like that? Is it balanced that a dk, with one normal skill, can counter any number of ultimate's so long as they can keep RS up?

    Excessive use of adjectives and adverbs turn otherwise reasonable statements into nonsensical hyperbole.

    Think about the mechanics of Blazing shield and think about the mechanics of Reflective scales. Both negate incoming damage and both throw it back at the attacker. That doesn't sound "far beyond...anything else" to me.

    It is not true those are the "only" counters to RS. People who overspecialize in one form of attack will find themselves at a disadvantage - as they should be for being a one-trick pony.

    There are counters, available to every class and every weapon line, that a RS using DK is vulnerable to. If this stuff is "easily" avoidable, that is immaterial to RS as players using those skills will struggle against a non RS user.

    The "entire" server? OK, yeah sure. And, yes, there is "any" other way someone could survive that - google "Krim."

    I'm guessing the "any" number of ultimates affected by RS is one. Let's see:
    Radial sweep? - no
    Nova? - no
    Right of Passage? - no.
    Dragon Leap? - no
    Standard of Might? - no.
    Magma Armor? - no.
    Soul Harvest? - no? (dont play NB).
    Veil of Blades? - no
    Soul Shred? - no.
    Strom Atronach? - no.
    Negate? - no
    Overload? - one form is and one form is not.
    Soul Assault? - no
    Dawnbreaker? - no
    Meteor? - yes.
    Batswarm? - no.
    Werewolf? - no.

    But I really think it is ridiculous to debate about this skill now as we do not know what other skills are getting adjusted and we do not know how Cyrodiil will play out after 1.6 goes live.

    When I rant I tend to go a bit overboard. This was written after taking a break from ESO, then coming back to do some non-vet pvp and seeing a very large number of my enemies running as DK's (all in the upper 40's) was a bit irritating. Going to try to reply to this without any of that fluff mixed in.

    You first (this reply being based off of this post) mention how Blazing shield and Reflective scales both return damage. My main point between the two is where as the damage RS can reflect is limited only by the number of enemies attacking you (hence the entire server attacking example), Blazing shield can only return a finite amount, and it is a damage shield so the damage it can absorb is limited as well.

    You bring up aoe as a counter for RS since you can damage the dk when they have scales up. As someone who has been using the bow from when I started this would apply to volley and arrow spray. Volley (from my use) seems to have a 3s delay between when you confirm the aoe you want to hit and when the arrows start to fall. In this time with the game encouraging mobility it is unlikely someone will stand and wait for the arrows to fall. Arrow spray has a 20m range, and gap closers have a 22m range. DK's have the longest range gap closer in the game (Take Flight) so they won't be using that often, but like most classes dk's use weapons to cover the gaps in skills, and with Invasion dk's have, from my experience, little trouble getting to you.

    And to clarify, my point with "the entire enemy server population attacking you at once" was more an example to say, in my opinion, the problem with RS. It has no limit and only gets stronger the more people who are attacking you. Damage shields like Blazing shield and Hardened Ward only protect against a set amount of damage, and gain nothing from your armor. RS can reflect infinite damage in its 4s window. Armor buffing skills like Lightning Form or Spiked Armor make you take less damage but you still receive damage, and the damage those skills deal is either from proximity (lightning form's aoe) or a flat value (spiked armors melee damage "return"). NB's and medium armor users, along with some class skills make dodges and misses apply a random chance to avoid all damage from an attack. No damage is returned from misses or dodged attacks and it is only ever a chance.

    RS is a guarantee to take an infinite amount of single target ranged skills, negate all of the damage they would do, and return 100%+ of the damage. I just think the real question is what Reflective Scales should be as a skill, because as it is now, in my opinion it is more than just a defensive skill.

    Also as a quick thing on ultimate's. Yes, from my irritation I went overboard with the amount of ultimate's reflected. In my opinion, since it is more of a weapon than a power skill Overload's light attacks should be reflected, but I think, not sure but believe I saw somewhere, that the heavy attack was also reflected. The mages guild ultimate doesn't seem to be used much since it is not that strong as is and against anyone keeping reflects up is simply just another projectile.

    Again, sorry for the rant, just needed to put my original post up just to vent after an irritating night of facing what seemed to only be dk's. This just comes down to the term "projectile" being thrown on so many skills, including many that shouldn't be projectiles (like the volatile familiar's explosion if it is still reflected). I would honestly just hope that ZOS looks at the skill and clearly defines its intended role in the game with 1.6, guess we will see.

    OK, fair enough and better. But do you really want policy to be based off rants? Or would you rather decisions be based off objective and rationale analysis?

    I know RS and Blazing shield are different. And they should be. I will grant that in more situation I'd prefer to have RS. But both of these skills act similar enough that they are not incomparable. In fact, Blazing shield is also on many player's nerf target list.

    Yes, I get it that using arrow spray and bombard are not ideal vs a RS using DK and it's sort of like playing left-handed. That is the point of reflective scales! If a DK wants to stand in their cinder storm and not move, bombard them (especially since this skill cannot be blocked). If you are worried about getting shield-charged for arrow spray, you need to stop coming to Cyrodiil. I am sorry there is a risk involved in you using a damaging skill vs another player, but that one is kind of non-negotiable to me. How about some class skills? Every single skill I use on my templar is not reflected by a DK. Here is one final suggestion if people are still having trouble vs an RS using DK because they are a one-trick pony. Acknowledge your one-trick ponyness and *attack someone else*!

    OK, ZoS now believes the whole unlimited thing was ridiculous. They are changing it and won't change it back until they see how it plays out in 1.6. The horse is dead, it does not need any more punishment.

    It is probably annoying to a meteor user or a light overload attack that these are reflected but...they are ranged projectiles! I can see the logic in granting ultimates some sort of boss-type immunity, but I think the bigger issue here quite frankly is that meteor is so lackluster.

    Have you read the thread? ZoS did look at the skill and is trying to define its role in 1.6. From their changes, it is apparent that they like the idea of reflecting projectiles back but do not want the skill to grant server wide immunity for 4 seconds. I would have done things differently, but it is what it is and it is a significant enough of a change that they are going to see how it unfolds in 1.6. RS discussion really needs to be tabled until that point. And at that, I will take my own advice and wait to see how it plays out in Cyrodiil before replying to any Reflective Scales threads.
  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    If a DK wants to stand in their cinder storm and not move, bombard them (especially since this skill cannot be blocked).

    Curious who told you this, since it doesn't seem that you've tried this yourself.

    Bombard can most definitely be blocked, both cutting its damage in half and completely negating the root effect. In fact, it's the only AoE root in the entire game that can be blocked.

  • duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO
    Durham wrote: »
    Dk has no range ... what is a dk suppose to do? Bow users just want easy kills from safe distances.... Btw if a dk is spamming reflect its not doing much else....

    Maybe make the change if a dk has a ranged weapon out it cannot use the ability...

    Not as a class skill, but with bow, destroy or rest staff, sure.

    And with heavy attacks of those staffs re-charging magicka (most stupid idea ever) you see them doing so in abundance.

    For said reason, the most annoying thing about reflective skill is not that it reflects all ranged attacks, 100% of the time (even if shooter has moved out of sight / range), but that the DK can still attack while having 100% immunity.

    This is a particular problem in PvP during sieges (both sides of the wall).

    The works only 4 times is BS.

    Far better - in this one's opinion as a bow user - would be to simply have it break any time the DK with RS on is using a skill on anybody but him/herself.

    Just compare it with the skill "agony": Breaks by damage from any source.
    This would then be: Breaks by damage to any source.

    Or in other words: no 100% immunity (there are only ranged attacks against a DK standing on a wall during siege), while putting out damage or operating a siege weapon at the same time.

    Then you only shoot at those DK who shoot back.

    That would be still unbalanced, but at least no longer overpowered, as they could - if they really love their scales so much - re-cast it after each and every attack.

    Also for DK in PvE: they can still tank, block etc. just not attack at the same time, and even do damage to the mobs if those keep on being stupid enough to shoot.
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