REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF

  • Kwas
    Kwas
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    NERF BOLT ESCAPE !!!
  • Panda244
    Panda244
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    If you use a spell reflect, use the one hand one shield and reflect it back at him, if you use a bow. Well you can go cry home because bow and lethal arrow spam is practically an exploit atm, so DKs need defense against it. Reflect SHOULD never be nerfed, DKs are the basic tank class, and this ability is not bad at all. Only people that spam lethal arrow or magicka based ranged classes whine about it. Theres a hundred different ways to kill a DK, without. Ranged.
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  • Bipolo
    Bipolo
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    I am actually surprised DK's are not extinct yet. This is how we feel :lol:

    ZyLBD8w.jpg
    Skeggǫld, Skálmǫld, Skildir ro Klofnir
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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Samadhi wrote: »
    ...
    Also Flame Lash in no way is the best lifetap in the game, that honor belongs to Funnel Health.

    Flame Lash has a ICD of something like 4 or 5 seconds... and heals at best 400ish if your'e magicka based... Funnel Health heals for vastly more then that... and you can stack it on multiple targets.

    Funnel Health on 2500 Magicka and 136 Spell Damage gives my Nightblade around 130 health every 2 seconds on V10 mobs. In PvP it is normally lower than that.

    The support HoTs applying to other people is pretty nice though.
    Being a ranged attack also makes Funnel Health shine, so long as the target doesn't run reflects.

    The heal on funnel health can crit. I've had it ticking for over 250 a pop alone. You can hit multiple people with it to have multiple going at once. You also refresh it everytime you cast funnel health. You have to be really awful at math to think flame lash which heals for 400ish every 5 seconds is comparable
    Edited by Xsorus on December 1, 2014 3:29AM
  • Samadhi
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    Bipolo wrote: »
    I am actually surprised DK's are not extinct yet. This is how we feel :lol:

    ZyLBD8w.jpg

    10 points for SMBC usage.
    Samadhi wrote: »
    ...
    Also Flame Lash in no way is the best lifetap in the game, that honor belongs to Funnel Health.

    Flame Lash has a ICD of something like 4 or 5 seconds... and heals at best 400ish if your'e magicka based... Funnel Health heals for vastly more then that... and you can stack it on multiple targets.

    Funnel Health on 2500 Magicka and 136 Spell Damage gives my Nightblade around 130 health every 2 seconds on V10 mobs. In PvP it is normally lower than that.

    The support HoTs applying to other people is pretty nice though.
    Being a ranged attack also makes Funnel Health shine, so long as the target doesn't run reflects.

    The heal on funnel health can crit. I've had it ticking for over 250 a pop alone. You can hit multiple people with it to have multiple going at once. You also refresh it everytime you cast funnel health. You have to be really awful at math to think flame lash which heals for 400ish every 5 seconds is comparable

    Bolded works for Mages Guild Entropy and the heal from Dragonknight Burning Embers, but not for Funnel Health.
    One Funnel active on self at a time, even with multiple targets available. Casting Funnel again on a second or third target simply extends the duration of the original healing value for an additional 10 seconds. Still only seeing one tick every 2 seconds even with 3 targets.
    Probably able to receive healing ticks from someone elses' Funnel at the same time as my own though, have no method to test that at the moment. Going just by the numbers that my character generates on its own.

    Crit heals after attacking v10 mobs bring the value up to 198 every 2 seconds if every single tick crits; the heal only really gets substantial when both the damage dealt is a crit (easy in PvE, but Impenetrable mitigates in PvP) and the skill lands a crit heal (this at least is manufacturable, if high cost, due to being able to use Shadowy Disguise for guaranteed crit heal). When both values are crits, the ticks come up to 302 every 2 seconds (again, it will be lower in PvP).

    Biggest weakness of Funnel Health is that the heal value drops as enemy damage mitigation increases. Having the misfortune of casting into Block can mean that healing is screwed over for 10 seconds...longer if I wish to cast Funnel Health again before those 10 seconds are up, because it will extend the duration of the low heal from the initial blocked damage.

    Funnel Health remains my favourite Nightblade skill though.
    Edited by Samadhi on December 1, 2014 4:11AM
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  • Milf_Hero
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    DK's reflective scales does not need to be nerfed. When you come across certain classes on the battle field, you need to adapt. Otherwise it would be boring. Not every one can fight 6+ people and win. Though there is some one in every class that can do such a thing. I hate and despise these people, but the show that no class is greater than the other, just you need to learn how to work with what ya got. What you should be complaining about is why their is only 1 or 2 ways to be that good. Use this skill, use this armor, use this staff, use this blah blah blah. stale old *** that every one uses. Champion system and magic crafting better open up new possibilities and diverse builds. So you may see a dk using reflective scales but at least he won't also be using cinder storm, talon, whip, green dragon blood, unstable flame etc.
    You name it, and ill kill it.
  • Suntzu1414
    NB's may not dominate in ESO.

    But, We do have all threads on this board...


    Kill Well
    ST
    Edited by Suntzu1414 on December 1, 2014 6:19AM
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  • coplannb16_ESO
    coplannb16_ESO
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    Increasing the cost is not a well-designed option (was a bad move for Bolt-escape).

    The problem is not the cost, the cost is completely fine if you run heavy or medium armor, the game simply becomes completely unbalanced when you factor in light armor.

    No class ability was meant to be spammable at all, issue is, with light armor and going heavily into magicka plus set bonuses like Warlock and Seducer you can spam class abilities with no downside.

    My medium armor stamina Sorcerer can cast Bolt-escape two times and Iam completely Magicka-starved. There is no class ability that I can use more than 2 or three times in a row.

    My heavy armor tank DK has the same issue with like ALL abilities (stamina and magicka). He has more health, but a few seconds into the fight Iam down to light and heavy attacks. Reflective Scales? Yeah, I can use it two or three times. Imbalanced? No!

    ZOS screwed up the armor balance hard, and we all know it, and I hope they know it too.

    Increasing the cost of spell abilities will only hinder the light-armor user slightly, but will screw up everyone else (the last 2 of us) much much more.

    Why increase the cost of all abilities when you can simply fix the armor?

    1. Remove all cost reduction for abilities from light AND medium armor
    2. rebalance spell and stamina cost considering #1 (remove bolt-escape nerf and other "bandaid-fixes")
    3. light armor should only boost Restro/Destro Staff and Mage Guild abilities
    4. medium armor should only boost Dual Wield, Two-Hander, S/B, Bow and Warrior Guild
    5. Heavy armor should have special affects for S/B (a "guard" ability for instance to take some damage in place of an ally) and actually improve the defense/mitigation by a meaningful amount
    6. instead of cost reduction think of different meaningful quirks (light armor could increase the range of spells, the radius of effect, the number of targets or a flat damage bonus for destro/resto/mage guild).

    Bottom line is: armor should not be the decisive factor in how your class abilities perform or how often you can use them. They are either class abilities or they are not. Á templar is a templar no matter what he wears, no?
    Edited by coplannb16_ESO on December 1, 2014 7:59AM
    max level: mDK, stamBlade, stamSorc, magPlar, mDen, stamDen, magBlade, stamCro
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    Stop the grind! Get rid of stupid events and daily-quest gallore. Get rid of "have a chance of 1 in a million to get a piece of 1 in 30 to get a stupid motif or pet... wtf..."
    And at this point just remove all classes and have everyone choose their set of skills. then balance accordingly to skills always used vs. skills never used.
  • Trottz
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    first of all reverse BE nerf. or same treatment for scales.
    everything else is just hypocrisy.

    the eso pvp learning curve might be steep but it certainly is not very high.
    Trist'is and Krahl, a.D.

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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Bolt escape was nerfed because it allowed sorcs to escape fights far to easily. As poweful as reflective scale is, I don't see dks escaping fights (in fact dks pretty much have to fight, there is no escape). I mean right now sorcs even after the nerf can still escape or kite forever with be.
  • Milf_Hero
    Milf_Hero
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    This whole thread is a load of Bull ***. Zos do not list to this garbage. Reflective scales is fine. bolt escape was nerfed because you freakin sorcs could engage in a fight and then zap away. easy stay alive button. sorcs still use it that way. I see no difference other than it cost slightly more but if your running in the first place you really won't need magicka to fight after your 3 miles from your freakin enemy. Like xsorusb14_ESO said, DK's don't run, they fight. They take it all in the face and give it to you harder. I wish reflective scales lasted longer. What you all want to do is face roll DKs by taking one of their main skills away of crippling to make it insane to use. SO before you go convincing Zos to fix things that aren't broken, please feel free to pick one skill from your own class that makes it unique and is actually effective in pvp and suggest they increase its magicka cost, tweak it, nerf it.


    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Content]
    Edited by ZOS_ShannonM on December 3, 2014 5:14PM
    You name it, and ill kill it.
  • Juraigr
    Juraigr
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    Bolt escape was nerfed because it allowed sorcs to escape fights far to easily. As poweful as reflective scale is, I don't see dks escaping fights (in fact dks pretty much have to fight, there is no escape). I mean right now sorcs even after the nerf can still escape or kite forever with be.

    True I can BE from most fights on my sorc, on my dk it's like 'well no choice KILL EM ALLL'
    EU Worst DK , Best DK Singapore and NA also known as 'Special Snowflake'

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  • Lava_Croft
    Lava_Croft
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    Make Reflective Scales behave like Harness Magicka, so it will only reflect a set number of projectiles before wearing off.
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    Make Fear behave like every other hard CC. Not work through block :blush:
    Edited by Maulkin on December 1, 2014 12:38PM
    EU | PC | AD
  • Lava_Croft
    Lava_Croft
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    Make Fear behave like every other hard CC. Not work through block :blush:
    I wouldn't mind a Bolt Escape-like cost increase. Most of the time a single cast of Fear is enough to kill you permablockers anyway. :wink:
  • Nijjion
    Nijjion
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    Should we just give all skills cooldowns and be done with it?

    Always going to be OP skills when no CDs... though at the moment every class has one.

    Reflective Scales, BE, Terror(fear), Blazing shield. If you nerf scales you will have to nerf the others as well.
    NijjijjioN - DK - AR27
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  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    Lava_Croft wrote: »
    Make Fear behave like every other hard CC. Not work through block :blush:
    I wouldn't mind a Bolt Escape-like cost increase. Most of the time a single cast of Fear is enough to kill you permablockers anyway. :wink:

    Ofc you wouldn't mind. A cost increase for the next 4" means nothing when the target is CC'ed for next 4" or immune for 6" because he broke CC. That's not what I said though ;)

    I also wouldn't mind if the 30% damage increase on reflected projectiles applied for the first 3 projectiles only. There :D
    Edited by Maulkin on December 1, 2014 12:51PM
    EU | PC | AD
  • RinaldoGandolphi
    RinaldoGandolphi
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    ***_Hero wrote: »
    This whole thread is a load of Bull ***. Zos do not list to this garbage. Reflective scales is fine. bolt escape was nerfed because you freakin sorcs could engage in a fight and then zap away. easy stay alive button. sorcs still use it that way. I see no difference other than it cost slightly more but if your running in the first place you really won't need magicka to fight after your 3 miles from your freakin enemy. Like xsorusb14_ESO said, DK's don't run, they fight. They take it all in the face and give it to you harder. I wish reflective scales lasted longer. What you all want to do is face roll DKs by taking one of their main skills away of crippling to make it insane to use. SO before you go convincing Zos to fix things that aren't broken, please feel free to pick one skill from your own class that makes it unique and is actually effective in pvp and suggest they increase its magicka cost, tweak it, nerf it.

    Bolt escape is what makes sorc unique, and in its pre nerf form was no where near as op as reflective scales is.

    My use of bolt escape today is only possible with tripots that cost 10k a stack and even then it still don't allow me to use the ability as intended...im one of the few that likes to use streak as an offensive move, but doing so cripples my mana regen and mama resources, potions do have a cool down time, I can't just spam potions every second.

    I'm not a fan of nerfing things though, I say buff the other classes and put them on par.

    Give Sorc pre nerf bolt escape back and we will be close to being even with DK.

    The other classes will need buffs too.

    Folks complain about Sorc BE from fights. Yet its ok for DK to stand right at keep walls flapping wings being unable to be killed by the keeps defenders, but hey that's perfectly fine, but BE had to be nerfed because folks used it to run..

    As I said let DK keep their scales just buff the other classes put them on par

    [Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]
    Edited by ZOS_ShannonM on December 3, 2014 5:15PM
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    Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

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  • Maulkin
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    woodsro wrote: »
    Bolt escape is what makes sorc unique, and in its pre nerf form was no where near as op as reflective scales is.

    Ok let's not talk rubbish here, at launch Streak was beyond insane. No target cap, 200 cost when all reductions were factored in, 300 unblockable dmg, stun if target was not blocking, insane ult-generation....

    The best sorcs would not use it only defensively but mostly offensively. You could just pin whole groups down and nail them just with streak and bats. Many many an emperor were crowned by using just Clouding Swarm and Streak.

    And this comes from somebody who plays a Sorc too.
    EU | PC | AD
  • Laggus
    Laggus
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    I can make anyone, any class, a sword, a knife or 2, Mace etc etc. Dont make bows though. Most peeps can make bows apparently!!! Problem solved you close the thread now.
  • AhPook_Is_Here
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    LOL I used to use the uncapped streak to farm anomalies and rifts in Craglorn solo. the only button you needed was pretty op.
    “Whatever.”
    -Unknown American
  • Xeniph
    Xeniph
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    Well hell, I may as well chime in!

    As many have said, there are counters to it. These days I find is more of a annoyance than anything. Though there are instances where it is completely unavoidable, which annoy the heck out of me when I am on any toon, but my DK.

    As an example, like so may here have said about Lethal Arrow "You can hear it coming, just roll dodge" Fortunately for the DK this is not needed, just hit Reflect. Of coarse the shot will be reflected and any other shot currently in flight. All while the attacker has limited options once a projectile is in flight.
    Yes, they can roll, block, vanish what have you, or just eat it. This is true for all classes/specs that are using projectile abilities.

    Never the less, this forces any attacker to assume before hand that every DK is currently protected by, or will cast Scales. In most cases, limiting the attacker to one bar, since a lot of folks run a ranged bar for pvp. This isn't necessarily bad as it promotes reactive combat. However I feel this is a bit extreme.

    I propose a few Idea's:

    1) If a projectile is fired while reflect is not up, but casted after. Said projectile hits
    .
    2) Change the skill to use Stamina, instead of Magicka.

    3) Increase the cost of the skill. Either directly, or possibly exponentially with subsequent casts.

    4) Make the skill reflect one school of projectiles, not all. (ie..Physical or Magic based, not both)

    5)Make the skill a one time buff that reflects only one physical based projectile. (Much like the 1h line's reflect, but different school.)

    6) For the love of God ZoS, take a look at what is, according to your animations, an actual projectile or not!

    These, I feel ,are some of the things they could do to Scales and bring it closer to being balanced ( My opinion!) Obviously It would be too much to combine most of these "adjustments" together, and in no way do I think they should.
    But certainly some of these alone could help.

    Now again, I am in no way calling for nerfs, nor am I crying about this skill. I have adapted to it like a lot of people have. Hell, I have and play my DK with it all the time. These are just my opinions and observations.

    I will say this. I do not think any class should be able to stand at a keep wall, having 20-30 players trying to range them during a siege, and reflect all that damage. But it is fun as hell being able to do it :wink:

    As it stands, a DK with reflect up can not only render millions of any combination of resources used against him moot, but can turn those millions of resources to direct damage. All for the low, low cost of around 368 magicka every 4 seconds. (Arbitrary number, but the actual resources reflected, per cast, can be infinite)

    As I see it, if you want to render my 199 magicka skill I just used on you useless, you should have to spend an equal amount of any resource. Reactive skill usage, not fire and forget for 4 seconds.

    Above all people. Roll a DK and learn how they play, abuse the hell out of this wonderful skill. It is quite fun, until it gets a bit boring.

    Cheers,
    Phenix
    Edited by Xeniph on December 1, 2014 3:50PM
    Here since Beta.

    Characters: All of them, both Stamina and Magicka.
  • Jahosefat
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    Panda244 wrote: »
    Theres a hundred different ways to kill a DK, without. Ranged.

    If you are a dk/temp/nb. Tell me the "hundreds" of non-ranged sorc abilities that are capable of killing a dk. Am I not looking a the same abilities?? LOL and before someone says "daedric mines", go try to do that to a halfway-lucid dk, take a vid, and show us how you pulled it off.

    BTW, I kill dks on my sorc (even good ones ;) ) with ranged attacks. Where I see the imbalance: if I make mistakes they are often very costly for a sorc where as dks can flub around for a while and recover from most situations with reflect and a few green dragons blood. I think dk is just generally easier to play to good effect in pvp, hence so many people rolling that class and in return non-dk players complaining about the abilities that make playing a pvp dk easy.
    Joeshock- AD NA AB Thorn Chill Sorc New Eden Low Sec Roamer

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  • AhPook_Is_Here
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    Since you can plainly see when the shield is active I don't know how you have to assume anything. It lasts 4 seconds. you can time your lethal arrow and the travel time around that. If the DK refreshes it before your projectile arrives but has left your bow you can roll dodge it, or block it.

    I play a sorc too, and if I am using crystal shards as part of my rotation against them I keep an eye out for reflections I might need to block to avoid being knocked over. Block casting works fine for sorcs too.
    “Whatever.”
    -Unknown American
  • Xeniph
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    You have to assume, since any DK worth a damn will cast/refresh it during animation/audio queues if it needs to be. Therefore, if he has no red shield in front of him (the visual queue), firing any projectile is a risk since it's activation is instant.
    I don't know about you, but in a battle of resource management. I prefer not to double or more my resource use,( Blocking, Dodging) yielding no result except to be where you started from, less those resources.

    Feel free to explain to me how, for example, it's productive to cast a projectile at anyone, only to have it reflected and needing to spend more resources to keep it from hitting yourself.

    I did clearly state what the options were in that situation. I also never said anything about the counters to the skill were hard. This game is incredibly easy as a matter of fact.

    And no, I am not speaking of Stealth openers. As I am aware those have no visual/audio queues. Nor am I referring to any single Class/Spec/ Weapon line.

    From my perspective, as a Sorc/NB/Templar (all of which I have at VR level) the skill is too broad. As my VR DK, this skill is perfectly balanced, :blush:

    Pro-tip* Block casting is NOT the best way to manage resources.
    Edited by Xeniph on December 1, 2014 5:05PM
    Here since Beta.

    Characters: All of them, both Stamina and Magicka.
  • Mukuro
    Mukuro
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    My main is a sorc and scales dont bother me at all... stop crying about things and learn to deal with them... curse streak unstable familiar resto heavies mines... Just sustain. .. He will run out of resources. .. flame lash melts my vampire face though. ..
    Illusions... or real illusions. Within the illusions hide real illusions... from the real illusions, the illusions are created. Within the truth hides the lie... within the lie hides the truth.
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  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
    Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    Un-nerf bolt escape and I will never complain about scales again.

    Every class has an ability that is "OP" when spammed.

    NBs have sap essence.

    Templars have Blazing Shield.

    DKs have Scales, and flame lash, and talons, and GDB.

    Sorcs have... Oh wait... Why are sorcs they ONLY CLASS with a built in punishment for spamming a skill in a game of skill spamming?

    You think Bolt is OP when spammed? So is all that other crap.

    And don't even try to tell me that pre-nerf Bolt escape was somehow more powerful than reflecting ALL range attacks while rooting people with talons(even using immovable), having the best DPS in the game with one skill and healing for 600HPS all at the same damn time.





  • Xeniph
    Xeniph
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    To be fair, my DK with 139 spell power only heals 450-525 (depending on target) with Flame Lash exploit.

    Just to dispel it being a massive heal, it's decent for sure but not quite as powerful as that. And it does have a 4 second internal CD, and requires the target be exploitable.

    Still good enough to have on the bar though! Carry on :smile:
    Here since Beta.

    Characters: All of them, both Stamina and Magicka.
  • MrGhosty
    MrGhosty
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    kijima wrote: »

    It's not like everyone doesn't have the option of running reflective scales, or fear, or negate, or blazing saddles (see what I did there :P) because we all have access to leveling another class if we so chose.

    I would pay much gold to have a skill that would allow me to shoot my horse into a crowd and watch it explode.

    I have a DK that hasn't seen much PvP, but I've come up against many on my NB. I specced DW and Bow from the beginning, but as a vampire I usually choose to run away from DKs whenever possible. I've personally found that there are some great skills outside of the class and weapon lines which do good works. If I absolutely have to use up that DKs reflect I will fire and immediately block, then try and hit them with some sort of CC or at least plonk a few arrows into them before they reflect again. Ultimately I consider this a non issue.

    I would say they either need to do a generic COD style loadout upon entering Cyrodiil or stop allowing these knee jerk reactions to influence the direction of the game. Are reflect spammers annoying? you betcha, are they only annoying ones? Nope. It's annoying to be killed, and will continue to be so until you figure out a way to counter it and there are ways to counter all of this (save for the poison health debuff bug, but that's a bug and doesn't count in my cleverly executed counter argument.) I enjoy looking at a death recap and seeing what others have put together. Yes there are the uninspired types who just spam whatever skill of the month is currently in fashion, but I find those to be few and far between. I love the tactics of trying to tweak a build on the fly to adapt to current battlefield conditions. I don't always do it well, but the process is fun and if we take that away by just crying nerf all of the time, the PvP will become terribly bland. So no thank you to your buff, I prefer to fight my DKs in all their flappy bird glory.

    "It is a time of strife and unrest. Armies of revenants and dark spirits manifest in every corner of Tamriel. Winters grow colder and crops fail. Mystics are plagued by nightmares and portents of doom."
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    Un-nerf bolt escape and I will never complain about scales again.

    If they un-nerfed it, I would bolt Escape from Blackboot to Warden to Farragut and back again to celebrate. But I somehow doubt it. I actually think it's alright as it is tbh, Bolt Escape.

    All I want for my Sorc is the average damage output pre Sharpened & Cycle of Life changes. My Frags that hit 800 consistently now average 600. My Curse that hit 600 now averages 450. That's 25% decrease in damage output while all melee spells or weapon attacks hit as hard as they did if not harder.

    Shield stacking also got nerfed and now the Sorc just takes butt-loads of damage from everywhere and has both less sustain and less damage. Boo

    Where's the cannon part in our glass cannon? I'm fine with BE nerf and fine with shield stacking nerf for obvious reasons but the damage output needs significant increase imo.

    PS. DKs are fine. There's just a lot of unjustified QQ about Battle Roar and Scales. I get huge resources from my Absorption Field too and I can range a DK that uses Scales absolutely fine.
    Edited by Maulkin on December 1, 2014 6:28PM
    EU | PC | AD
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