REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF

Sanct16 · December 2014

Just good that dk has a viable gap closer.... ah no. I forgot. Dk hasnt.

Bipolo · December 2014

Sanct16 wrote: »

Just good that dk has a viable gap closer.... ah no. I forgot. Dk hasnt.

Gorthax · December 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

No it does NOT show balance lol Because a sorc has to run away do something run away do something run away do something just to attempt to do stuff to a DK does not mean it is balanced. Especially when the DK just holds his shield and laughs then charges and Burning Talons you then whips you while holding his shield, then you dodge roll or BE to get away to repeat the process ALL while the DK regains stamina and health.

Why the hell not? It works. If it was the way you describe it I'd never be able ot kill a DK but I can.

Why do you expect to just stand there in front a strong melee warrior and not have to move around with the skills you are given? You were given Bolt Escape for a reason. Use it strategically to apply damage and stun and to put any needed distance between you.

A friend of mine described the fights between a DK and Sorc as fight between a Matador and a bull. The bull charges (Invasion) while the Matador faints and moves behind him (Streak) applying small jabs all the time that will eventually wear him out. I thought it was a brilliant description.

Gorthax wrote: »

Clearly you do not see the dilemma here. A class with little to no damage going against a class that has survived multiple nerfs and is still king of the ring is not balanced lol Sorcs need some serious love. I want DoT to be good and viable against a DK and other classes. If they want to stand there holding block in my DoT AoE then they should be punished for it. Much like people who want to stand in Bat swarms feel they shouldnt die...guess what you should lol

I've already said in previous posts that Sorcs need their damage increased to 1.4 levels to be more in balance with DKs and NBs. I've listed reasons and example as well as potential changes.

Bumping up the damage of Sorcs doesn't mean we have to nerf the most useful skill of a tank class so they can just die to anything ranged.

Gorthax wrote: »

As it sits right now, sorcs DoT is very VERY laughable. Block mitigates a good chunk of it at no stamina cost to them. If the DoT did not cost as much as it does AND drained stamina when being blocked then I would be happy(somewhat). Currently the ONLY means for a sorc to be viable outside of his negates in pvp is to use BE, VC (or SP depends on player), CF, MF, CW(last one is debatable).

WTF are you talking about. Block does not mitigate Liquid Lightning AoE or any magicka AoE in fact, or DoTs. Do you even PvP?

Yes I pvp lol why else would I be here [snip] about this stuff? If block does not mitigate the damage, then why do the numbers vary when shield is being used to block and when it isnt? Also, no i do NOT expect to stand there in a melee classes face and win. You still dont get it. Yes it IS possible to kill a DK, but majority of the time they just out heal everything you can throw at them. Even with streaking through to do a little damage.

I think we can agree to disagree here. Because I feel that it is a pointless fight. Sorcs can kill DKs agreed, but it takes a long loooooooooong time. The only viable method is the slowest method(which can easily be outhealed by them). As for the DoT stuff I should of just said AoE damage. Not applied DoT that can be purged. Better?

Again I have NEVER said nerf RS. Not once! Dont get it twisted mmk? I want sorcs buffed to not be so laughable.

Bipolo wrote: »

EDITED:

Gorthax wrote: »

No it does NOT show balance lol Because a sorc DK has to run away close gap do something run away close gap do something run away close gap do something just to attempt to do stuff to a DK Sorc does not mean it is balanced. Especially when the DK Sorc just holds his shield and laughs then charges Streaks and Burning Talons Encase/Mine's you then whips Curse/Fury's you while holding his shield, then you dodge roll or BE Damn, DK's cant escape to get away to repeat the process ALL while the DK Sorc regains stamina and health and magicka.

It had to be done...

No one uses mines :P the cost for them is just crazy especially with how easy it is to move around and avoid. Only really stupid people fall for them lol But I like what you did

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Profanity]

pmn100b16_ESO · December 2014

Armitas wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

A "tanky class" that puts out near the highest dps in the game. In my experience of other mmo's, if you're a tanky class, your damage output is negligible, not up there with the best. That's the only issue I have with DKs. Keep your scales, keep your mitigations, keep your insta-heals, but the damage output needs to be lowered.

What is the DK's current single target sustained DPS and how is this achieved while also a tank?

As an NB, I have overcharged magicka by about 150 and soft capped spell damage. My surprise attacks hit most v14 DKs for somewhere in the 500s region. I regularly see 450 hits from flame whip (I'm not a vamp). Thats not including the dot from talons (I can't include cripple dots as that's blockable now, hence never applied to your average DK). So just by spamming flame whip and talons, your average DK is putting out not far below your average magicka spec'd melee NB. A "tanky class" in any other game would not be anywhere near this damage output.

As for the 'while also a tank' argument. We all know you just run full light magicka builds to be a more than adequate tank. Capped magicka and relying on your class skills and passives for survivability is all that's needed to be a tank. But in this build you still have stupendous damage output.

The fact is, you can't call a DK a "tanky class" to justify all the survivability skills, and not mention the fact they still output massive amounts of damage. DK in their current form is not a "tanky class" by any MMO standard, they are an overpowered class.

Maulkin · December 2014

Gorthax wrote: »

Yes I pvp lol why else would I be here[snip] about this stuff? If block does not mitigate the damage, then why do the numbers vary when shield is being used to block and when it isnt?

Go check again. It doesn't.

Gorthax wrote: »

Also, no i do NOT expect to stand there in a melee classes face and win. You still dont get it. Yes it IS possible to kill a DK, but majority of the time they just out heal everything you can throw at them. Even with streaking through to do a little damage.

Their job is to tank and outheal, yours is to hit and move. Depending on how well you play, you can win or lose.

Gorthax wrote: »

I think we can agree to disagree here. Because I feel that it is a pointless fight. Sorcs can kill DKs agreed, but it takes a long loooooooooong time. The only viable method is the slowest method(which can easily be outhealed by them). As for the DoT stuff I should of just said AoE damage. Not applied DoT that can be purged. Better?

It should take a long time. If you could blast the tankier class in seconds, they'd be underpowered. I don't know why you have this expectation of killing them quickly.

Gorthax wrote: »

No one uses mines :P the cost for them is just crazy especially with how easy it is to move around and avoid. Only really stupid people fall for them lol But I like what you did

They are indeed a ridiculously expensive skill. They are still used in duels, which I think is what Bipolo was referencing, but the have very little usability in open PvP in my experience.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Juraigr · December 2014

Looooooooool biplo

Gorthax · December 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Yes I pvp lol why else would I be here [snip] about this stuff? If block does not mitigate the damage, then why do the numbers vary when shield is being used to block and when it isnt?

Go check again. It doesn't.

Gorthax wrote: »

Also, no i do NOT expect to stand there in a melee classes face and win. You still dont get it. Yes it IS possible to kill a DK, but majority of the time they just out heal everything you can throw at them. Even with streaking through to do a little damage.

Their job is to tank and outheal, yours is to hit and move. Depending on how well you play, you can win or lose.

Gorthax wrote: »

I think we can agree to disagree here. Because I feel that it is a pointless fight. Sorcs can kill DKs agreed, but it takes a long loooooooooong time. The only viable method is the slowest method(which can easily be outhealed by them). As for the DoT stuff I should of just said AoE damage. Not applied DoT that can be purged. Better?

It should take a long time. If you could blast the tankier class in seconds, they'd be underpowered. I don't know why you have this expectation of killing them quickly.

Gorthax wrote: »

No one uses mines :P the cost for them is just crazy especially with how easy it is to move around and avoid. Only really stupid people fall for them lol But I like what you did

They are indeed a ridiculously expensive skill. They are still used in duels, which I think is what Bipolo was referencing, but the have very little usability in open PvP in my experience.

I will go check again in fact

I just need to find a DK in another faction willing to test it as the other person I used to test stuff with has quit the game some time ago. I am not saying I want to kill them in seconds lol that is not the point :P the point is that for a "tank" based class to be able to do EVERYTHING and in most cases BETTER is just seriously silly.

Armitas · December 2014

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

A "tanky class" that puts out near the highest dps in the game. In my experience of other mmo's, if you're a tanky class, your damage output is negligible, not up there with the best. That's the only issue I have with DKs. Keep your scales, keep your mitigations, keep your insta-heals, but the damage output needs to be lowered.

What is the DK's current single target sustained DPS and how is this achieved while also a tank?

As an NB, I have overcharged magicka by about 150 and soft capped spell damage. My surprise attacks hit most v14 DKs for somewhere in the 500s region. I regularly see 450 hits from flame whip (I'm not a vamp). Thats not including the dot from talons (I can't include cripple dots as that's blockable now, hence never applied to your average DK). So just by spamming flame whip and talons, your average DK is putting out not far below your average magicka spec'd melee NB. A "tanky class" in any other game would not be anywhere near this damage output.

As for the 'while also a tank' argument. We all know you just run full light magicka builds to be a more than adequate tank. Capped magicka and relying on your class skills and passives for survivability is all that's needed to be a tank. But in this build you still have stupendous damage output.

The fact is, you can't call a DK a "tanky class" to justify all the survivability skills, and not mention the fact they still output massive amounts of damage. DK in their current form is not a "tanky class" by any MMO standard, they are an overpowered class.

You can't base the entire class's dps by your personal experience of their dps and your current dps.

Block is what makes someone tanky, that is achieved either through heavy armor with s/b or with shielding glyphs. Sure anyone can be tanky for a while in light armor but it's not sustainable tanking. Each block takes a lot of stamina without block reduction. We can siphon magicka for stamina but not in a way that supports perma blocking and to do so we reduce our resource pool for damage at the same time.

Joy_Division · December 2014

@‌Gorthax -

I do not have it wrong. I play a sorcerer, I don't play a "cookie cutter" build as you say, and I do not have a problem killing DKs any more than Templars. You keep saying sorcs COULD kill a DK "if that's their cup of tea" - which is a tacit acknowledgement that as presently constituted Sorcs are perfectly capable of killing DKs. But since sorcs can't kill them they way you WANT to (presumably blasting them to dust form the safety of 28 meters away), scales needs to be nerfed.

No, you should stop being so stubborn and learn to drink other types of tea.

Gorthax · December 2014

Joy_Division wrote: »

@‌Gorthax -

I do not have it wrong. I play a sorcerer, I don't play a "cookie cutter" build as you say, and I do not have a problem killing DKs any more than Templars. You keep saying sorcs COULD kill a DK "if that's their cup of tea" - which is a tacit acknowledgement that as presently constituted Sorcs are perfectly capable of killing DKs. But since sorcs can't kill them they way you WANT to (presumably blasting them to dust form the safety of 28 meters away), scales needs to be nerfed.

No, you should stop being so stubborn and learn to drink other types of tea.

Not being stubborn lol I am merely saying that there should be other methods of doing it (which I have already said I found and are not cookie cutter builds). The damage is weak. It needs to be tweaked. So no I will NOT drink another cup of tea. Glad you enjoy yours, I really enjoy mine. My entire point is that sorcs got nerfed BAD and have not recovered. I can keep saying it till I am blue in the face. DONT NERF ANYTHING! BUFF! bring everyone in line with the best class. Simple as that. Reduce some cost numbers for sorcs, adjust skills to be more competitive, etc etc. Then do that for every class.

Not once did I every say I want to kill them from 28 meters away lol not once. So you can stop with that

But thanks ^_^

Again, I repeat, I NEVER SAID NERF RS! so please stop saying I did lol

Jahosefat · December 2014

Juraigr wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Now for some context: For argument sake.

Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.

Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.

(arbitrary numbers to follow)

Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.

DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)

Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.

Dodge roll = 210 stamina.

210 x10 = 2100 stamina.

Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.

150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.

I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.

When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.

I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.

The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect

And I want someone to explain to me how "going melee" helps a sorc vs a DK? What melee is viable for a sorc? Crit charge with crit surge (this isn't even really melee)? And is completely countered by blocking. Uppercut? Great I'll stand next to the DK (who has way more healing potential than a melee sorc) where he can do full DPS. What "awesome" dk smashing melee do sorcs have access to?

It will be a glorious day when a real counter to RS scales is introduced. All the sorcs that have trudged through this RS BS will probably pop to the top of the ladders (because sorcs take way more skill to play than easy-mode DKs "I PRESS TWO BUTTONS AND LIVE THROUGH IT ALL" ).

Ooh 500 unblockable damage is weak ok then

Every 3.5 secs

> ~142 DPS. So yes, with the powers of math I can prove this is weak. Particularly on a DK with GDB. GDB can't heal more than 142 DPS??? lol.

eventide03b14a_ESO · December 2014

Gorthax wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

The point of this thread is that a bowuser should be able to kill everyone just spamming snipe.

if thats what you get out of this thread than you need to go re-read everything. Everyone is NOT saying that

That's not even the title of this thread...

@Xeniph‌ That was a very well thought out and honest assessment of the ability. @Jahosefat‌ I think that pretty much sums up all of the frustration people have with the DK and RS in particular.

The class is OP only because it doesn't suffer the penalties and restrictions other classes do. Other classes have trade offs for using their more powerful abilities like Bolt Escape, where the cost is extremely high, or the effects of the abilities are reduced, like the nightblade's Fear which only effects 2 targets unlike the 6 targets of most AoEs. Nightblades have Siphoning Attacks, which is great for replenishing magicka and stamina but reduces weapon and spell damage by a whopping 25%. Sorcerers have Dark Exchange which is great to get health and magicka back but depletes their stamina. These are only a few examples.

So what restrictions do DK's have for similar abilities? The answer is none. There is no penalty to cast any DK ability aside from the cost of the resource. GDB not only restores a large chunk of health right away but also increases HP and stamina regen for it's duration, with absolutely no penalty. Reflective Scales makes the DK invulnerable 90% of ranged attacks and can easily be recast every 4 seconds. Again with no penalty. Talons not only roots but also causes damage and of course has no penalty to the DK.

Basically what needs to happen is that either DK abilities need to start including some sort of penalty or the penalties should be removed from the other classes abilities to make them more competitive. DK's have excellent defense and excellent damage simultaneously which makes it very one sided when fighting them.

Jahosefat · December 2014

Armitas wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Now for some context: For argument sake.

Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.

Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.

(arbitrary numbers to follow)

Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.

DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)

Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.

Dodge roll = 210 stamina.

210 x10 = 2100 stamina.

Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.

150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.

I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.

When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.

I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.

The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect

So you can kill a DK, you admit there is a reliable way to kill them but your complaint is that it takes to long to do so and it's too much trouble?

If it takes 5 minutes to kill a DK, then the DK couldn't kill you in 5 minutes either.

lol I think you are missing the point. That 5 minutes invloves the sorc streaking/dodge rolling around clinging on to dear life hoping the DK the is overextending in his aggressiveness. Saying this was "reliable" was an overstatement. It is completely possible for a DK for go fully defensive and be completely unkillable by a sorc.

A sorc has to wait for the DK to make a few big mistakes in a row, or run them selves out of resources trying to catch the sorc. A DK can kill a sorc in about 5 seconds if the sorc makes a mistake. Playing a DK is much more forgiving and robust, and therefore is easier (hence so may people playing DK). I think the imbalance between the class populations in PVP more than proves this point.

TLDR: DKs are easy-mode class in ESO pvp because of RS and GDB. Sorcs can occasionally kill DKs but it is generally much easier for DKs to kill a sorc, because of essentially one very strong skill. How can you argue that is balanced in any way?

Lava_Croft · December 2014

The problem with DK's is not so much RS in itself, but it's the combination of RS with the other pretty good DK skills, which combined with the ridiculous damage mitigation from S&B turns every DK into something that requires little effort for a high gain, certainly when compared to the other classes, which require quite a bit more effort to have the same kind of success in PvP.

AhPook_Is_Here · December 2014

Take away scales, keep the wings, give him an instant ability instead called "hey little bird fly away home" that instantly teleports the DK to the inside of a friendly keep.

Now the DK has his instant escape like sorcs and NBs and he is no longer a PVP tank allowing ranged classes to cry at each-other over ranged specific nerfs.

Gorthax · December 2014

Jahosefat wrote: »

lol I think you are missing the point. That 5 minutes invloves the sorc streaking/dodge rolling around clinging on to dear life hoping the DK the is overextending in his aggressiveness. Saying this was "reliable" was an overstatement. It is completely possible for a DK for go fully defensive and be completely unkillable by a sorc.

A sorc has to wait for the DK to make a few big mistakes in a row, or run them selves out of resources trying to catch the sorc. A DK can kill a sorc in about 5 seconds if the sorc makes a mistake. Playing a DK is much more forgiving and robust, and therefore is easier (hence so may people playing DK). I think the imbalance between the class populations in PVP more than proves this point.

TLDR: DKs are easy-mode class in ESO pvp because of RS and GDB. Sorcs can occasionally kill DKs but it is generally much easier for DKs to kill a sorc, because of essentially one very strong skill. How can you argue that is balanced in any way?

Watch out, you are going to get flamed and told you are crying for nerfs. Or the best one "L2P".

Armitas · December 2014

Jahosefat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Now for some context: For argument sake.

Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.

Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.

(arbitrary numbers to follow)

Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.

DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)

Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.

Dodge roll = 210 stamina.

210 x10 = 2100 stamina.

Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.

150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.

I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.

When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.

I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.

The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect

So you can kill a DK, you admit there is a reliable way to kill them but your complaint is that it takes to long to do so and it's too much trouble?

If it takes 5 minutes to kill a DK, then the DK couldn't kill you in 5 minutes either.

That 5 minutes invloves the sorc streaking/dodge rolling around clinging on to dear life hoping the DK the is overextending in his aggressiveness. Saying this was "reliable" was an overstatement. It is completely possible for a DK for go fully defensive and be completely unkillable by a sorc.

That is exactly what pvp should be like. A fight for your life. This isn't pve where you stand around pew pewing something that doesn't think. You have perfectly described what balanced pvp looks like.

Reliable was an overstatement on your part? So I guess you mean mostly reliable which is again a good sign of balance.

Gorthax · December 2014

Armitas wrote: »

That is exactly what pvp should be like. A fight for your life. This isn't pve where you stand around pew pewing something that doesn't think. You have perfectly described what balanced pvp looks like.

So sorcs should be weak, and DK should be ungodly and high dps at the same time? Sounds balanced to me! thread closed!

eventide03b14a_ESO · December 2014

Armitas wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Now for some context: For argument sake.

Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.

Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.

(arbitrary numbers to follow)

Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.

DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)

Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.

Dodge roll = 210 stamina.

210 x10 = 2100 stamina.

Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.

150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.

I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.

When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.

I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.

The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect

So you can kill a DK, you admit there is a reliable way to kill them but your complaint is that it takes to long to do so and it's too much trouble?

If it takes 5 minutes to kill a DK, then the DK couldn't kill you in 5 minutes either.

That 5 minutes invloves the sorc streaking/dodge rolling around clinging on to dear life hoping the DK the is overextending in his aggressiveness. Saying this was "reliable" was an overstatement. It is completely possible for a DK for go fully defensive and be completely unkillable by a sorc.

That is exactly what pvp should be like. A fight for your life. This isn't pve where you stand around pew pewing something that doesn't think. You have perfectly described what balanced pvp looks like.

Reliable was an overstatement on your part? So I guess you mean mostly reliable which is again a good sign of balance.

Except it's only the sorcerer who is fighting for their life.

Armitas · December 2014

Gorthax wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

That is exactly what pvp should be like. A fight for your life. This isn't pve where you stand around pew pewing something that doesn't think. You have perfectly described what balanced pvp looks like.

So sorcs should be weak, and DK should be ungodly and high dps at the same time? Sounds balanced to me! thread closed!

Weak? He said he won and complained that it took to long and was too much trouble. He even said there is a reliable way to kill dks. It doesn't seem like he wants balance it seems like he doesn't want to be troubled for his kills.

Maulkin · December 2014

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Except it's only the sorcerer who is fighting for their life.

Except that's only if you don't know what you're doing.

Armitas · December 2014

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Now for some context: For argument sake.

Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.

Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.

(arbitrary numbers to follow)

Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.

DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)

Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.

Dodge roll = 210 stamina.

210 x10 = 2100 stamina.

Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.

150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.

I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.

When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.

I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.

The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect

So you can kill a DK, you admit there is a reliable way to kill them but your complaint is that it takes to long to do so and it's too much trouble?

If it takes 5 minutes to kill a DK, then the DK couldn't kill you in 5 minutes either.

That 5 minutes invloves the sorc streaking/dodge rolling around clinging on to dear life hoping the DK the is overextending in his aggressiveness. Saying this was "reliable" was an overstatement. It is completely possible for a DK for go fully defensive and be completely unkillable by a sorc.

That is exactly what pvp should be like. A fight for your life. This isn't pve where you stand around pew pewing something that doesn't think. You have perfectly described what balanced pvp looks like.

Reliable was an overstatement on your part? So I guess you mean mostly reliable which is again a good sign of balance.

Except it's only the sorcerer who is fighting for their life.

Really? cause the guy said he won... meaning the sorc lived and the dk died. That would leave the DK in the position of literally fighting for his life. The guys only complaint was that he had to work for the kill.

Xeniph · December 2014

Gorthax wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

In fact, the only ranged weapon that is not reflected is a resto staff.

wrong :P lightning staff is not reflected but since it is not fire it is WEAK!

Actually, it is reflected. The channel isn't, but the projectile at the end of it is. So I suppose we could both be right if someone only did a partially charged heavy.

Maulkin · December 2014

Xeniph wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

In fact, the only ranged weapon that is not reflected is a resto staff.

wrong :P lightning staff is not reflected but since it is not fire it is WEAK!

Actually, it is reflected. The channel isn't, but the projectile at the end of it is. So I suppose we could both be right if someone only did a partially charged heavy.

Correct

Though if you're going to channel, resto heavy is THE way. You:
a) do more damage by channelling all the way (as opposed to partial channel)
b) never risk overrunning the channel and having a projectile reflected back at you
c) restore an awesome amount of magicka.

Which is why a lot of duellists are complain that heavy attack channelling is no longer interruptible. You can get huge resources during the duel.

david.haypreub18_ESO · December 2014

Xeniph wrote: »

It would seem that some folks in this thread are not actually reading the well thought out and constructive posts.

Look I get it, I have a v14 DK. I too absolutely LOVE Scales when I am playing her. The more coherent and constructive posts are not calling for blanket nerfs, simply asking for an adjustment.

Also, I agree that Lethal arrow in it's current form is just silly with the heal debuff stacking. But very few people are actually taking about the bow, though everyone who cites "L2P" and other nonsense seem to be focusing on it.

And stop with the " DK's need a counter to snipe" because all classes have to deal with it. Even without Scales, you would be no worse off than any other class. You still have a heal and a shield without even having a specific weapon requirement, and only the Templar can match that.

I also agree that folks who only slot projectile abilities, need to adjust a bit. The fact is the skill is too broad. In it's current form it nearly neuters 2 weapon skill lines, except for 3 aoe. Heck, even DW has a skill that's reflected. This is to include Light and Heavy attacks. In fact, the only ranged weapon that is not reflected is a resto staff.

Now for some context: For argument sake.

Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.

Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.

(arbitrary numbers to follow)

Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.

DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)

Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.

Dodge roll = 210 stamina.

210 x10 = 2100 stamina.

Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.

150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.

All for the low cost of 368 magicka. Now that is a scenario in a perfect world, but it is completely possible. Heck, it can increase exponentially as the number of attackers grow, such as at a Keep defense. And with the ability to overwrite itself, while not mana efficient, is completely plausible.

Absofriggenlutely Scales needs either a rate limit on the numbers of projectiles it can reflect per cast, or it's cost need to be increased to bring it more in line with the resources it is able to negate and the damage it is capable of reflecting. UNLESS you ask any DK, including myself when I am playing her.

Come to think about it, just revert it back to consuming stamina/magicka based on the base cost of the ability reflected, like it used to.

All the DK's can defend the skill all they want to. But WE, I include myself, know for a fact it is OP atm and giggle every time we cast it.

There is another option though, change Defensive Stance in the 1h line to last 4 seconds and reflect all projectiles without the bonus damage.

At least then the class diversification in pvp would broaden more.

And no, I am not whining. Rather trying to shed some light on the potential of the ability, where otherwise may have not been considered.

This is by far the best, most constructive and balanced post in the entire thread.

Sanct16 · December 2014

Pretty sure that the final hit isnt reflected either.

Gonna test it later tho.

Maulkin · December 2014

Just for the record @Armitas, I don't want my defending of reflective scales be interpreted as saying the classes are in perfect balance atm. They pretty much were at balance pre 1.5, but at the moment DK is stronger. That's coming from someone who plays and duels with both.

The fixes to sharpened and cycle of life, as well as the nerfs to shield-stacking have hit Sorcs harder. As I've said before, I got a 25% drop in my damage output while my main damage ability for DK (Flame Whip) was unaffected.

The shields that used to sustain you well against DoT stacking no longer do so. A good DK will keep a minimum of 2, or probably 3 DoTs on me and when I apply Harness, the magicka return stops within 1 sec.

As much as those fixes were necessary (I reiterate that), Sorc damage is at the moment too low considering the lack of defensive mechanisms and quick heals built in the class. Basically the problem of the class becoming more glass and less cannon at the same time, as I usually put it.

But that's not a DK or Scales issue. That's a Sorc issue they need to look at.

eventide03b14a_ESO · December 2014

@Armitas‌ The fact that he was ultimately victorious is meaningless. He had to put a lot of work into that and is probably a very skilled player. But that's the point. A sorcerer has to be skilled in PvP to be successful, a nightblade also has to have some skill to be successful. A DK is a faceroll and presumably you don't agree because you play one. You are terrified that they are going to do something that might actually make you have to work at PvP. Stop pretending like DK's are this nuanced class that takes skill to play.

Maulkin · December 2014

Sanct16 wrote: »

Pretty sure that the final hit isnt reflected either.

Gonna test it later tho.

It is

Armitas · December 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

As much as those fixes were necessary (I reiterate that), Sorc damage is at the moment too low considering the lack of defensive mechanisms and quick heals built in the class. Basically the problem of the class becoming more glass and less cannon at the same time, as I usually put it.

When I think of the roles each class plays I see it like this.
Temp = Healer
DK = Tank
NB = dps
Sorc = ?... negate?

Yeah sorcs need looking at for sure.