REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF

Pixysticks

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Un-nerf bolt escape and I will never complain about scales again.

If they un-nerfed it, I would bolt Escape from Blackboot to Warden to Farragut and back again to celebrate. But I somehow doubt it. I actually think it's alright as it is tbh, Bolt Escape.

All I want for my Sorc is the average damage output pre Sharpened & Cycle of Life changes. My Frags that hit 800 consistently now average 600. My Curse that hit 600 now averages 450. That's 25% decrease in damage output while all melee spells or weapon attacks hit as hard as they did if not harder.

Shield stacking also got nerfed and now the Sorc just takes butt-loads of damage from everywhere and has both less sustain and less damage. Boo

Where's the cannon part in our glass cannon? I'm fine with BE nerf and fine with shield stacking but the damage needs significant increase imo.

PS. DKs are fine. There's just a lot of unjustified QQ about Battle Roar and Scales. I get huge resources from my Absorption Field too and I can range a DK that uses Scales absolutely fine.

Crit surge should increase spell damage as well as weapon damage. Impen should just be a flat damage reduction instead of flat crit reduction.

That would fix sorcs.

Maulkin

Pixysticks wrote: »

Crit surge should increase spell damage as well as weapon damage. Impen should just be a flat damage reduction instead of flat crit reduction.

That would fix sorcs.

Yeah, probably.

We've been screaming about impenetrable for months, to the point I'm losing faith they'll ever bother. If you could get up to (with legendary items) 5% off the crit dmg bonus with each piece it means 7 pieces = 35% deduction from the base 50% offered by crit. So crit attacks would hit for x1.15 instead of x1.5 worst case scenario. If someone has +65% crit damage (from Mundus stone) that's still x1.3 after the deductions.

It would still be pretty much essential for PvP but at least investing in a crit build would give you some steady rewards. And it would make Crit Surge give some steady rewards to Sorcs, kinda like NBs do with their damage skills.

Samadhi

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

...
It would still be pretty much essential for PvP but at least investing in a crit build would give you some steady rewards. And it would make Crit Surge give some steady rewards to Sorcs, kinda like NBs do with their damage skills.

In terms of steady rewards in healing, would personally like to also see Blood Magic passive changed so it procs on all damage the Sorcerer deals so long as at least one Dark Magic skill is slotted.

It heals around 150 Health for a 3k hp build on each Shards cast, but trying to spam Shards is a death sentence and the rest of Dark Magic is unreliable to try and heal with.

If the passive healed the same amount on every other attack as long as Shards or Negate was slotted, it would be a heal worth note instead of a random case of "oh okay, a little healing."

Maulkin

Samadhi wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

...
It would still be pretty much essential for PvP but at least investing in a crit build would give you some steady rewards. And it would make Crit Surge give some steady rewards to Sorcs, kinda like NBs do with their damage skills.

In terms of steady rewards in healing, would personally like to also see Blood Magic passive changed so it procs on all damage the Sorcerer deals so long as at least one Dark Magic skill is slotted.

It heals around 150 Health for a 3k hp build on each Shards cast, but trying to spam Shards is a death sentence and the rest of Dark Magic is unreliable to try and heal with.

If the passive healed the same amount on every other attack as long as Shards or Negate was slotted, it would be a heal worth note instead of a random case of "oh okay, a little healing."

Nah, that would lead to even more spamming of Mage's Fury.

It would be pretty OP if a ranged, unblockable spell that costs 175mgk (after seducer + light reduction) did on average 170dmg, plus 150 heals, plus put a 4" sec time to proc an execute that also returns 130 magicka.

I think to get more out of Blood Magic you need to use more Dark Magic skills. The problem with that is that Daedric Mines and Encase are ludicrously expensive. I was duelling a DK the other week and I thought I'd try to use Encase to eat up his stamina. Well he started using Efficient Purge because guess what, it's cheaper than Encase and when duels are a fight of resource management the skill becomes useless.

So a skill that clears 2 negatives effects from 24 players is cheaper that a skill that CCs 6. *facepalm*

Pixysticks

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Pixysticks wrote: »

Crit surge should increase spell damage as well as weapon damage. Impen should just be a flat damage reduction instead of flat crit reduction.

That would fix sorcs.

Yeah, probably.

We've been screaming about impenetrable for months, to the point I'm losing faith they'll ever bother. If you could get up to (with legendary items) 5% off the crit dmg bonus with each piece it means 7 pieces = 35% deduction from the base 50% offered by crit. So crit attacks would hit for x1.15 instead of x1.5 worst case scenario. If someone has +65% crit damage (from Mundus stone) that's still x1.3 after the deductions.

It would still be pretty much essential for PvP but at least investing in a crit build would give you some steady rewards. And it would make Crit Surge give some steady rewards to Sorcs, kinda like NBs do with their damage skills.

I cancelled my sub a week ago because of it. I'll re-sub when heal debuff stacking is fixed and impen. is changed to some sort of flat damage reduction, or crit surge is changed to heal off of all damage for a lower amount.

Armitas

I know that sorcs can bolt, so I put invade on
I know that NBs can stealth so I keep detect pots
I know that DK's can reflect so I put non projectiles on my bar only equip projectiles.

Samadhi

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

...
I think to get more out of Blood Magic you need to use more Dark Magic skills. The problem with that is that Daedric Mines and Encase are ludicrously expensive. I was duelling a DK the other week and I thought I'd try to use Encase to eat up his stamina. Well he started using Efficient Purge because guess what, it's cheaper than Encase and when duels are a fight of resource management the skill becomes useless.
...

Was personally put off by Blood Magic's synergy (or lack thereof) with Daedric Mines and Encase.
In theory, it should be a nice mix; in practice, the AoE effect on multiple players still only procs a single heal (despite the passive saying that it procs a heal every time a target is hit by a Dark Magic spell, which would imply that every target on the AoE is supposed to activate a heal effect).
Likewise, Daedric Mines has a quirk where if two different players step on two different mines at the exact same time, only one heal will activate; if they step on the mines 2 seconds apart, both heals activate fine.
Factor that on top of the skills' respective costs, and ended up taking both off my bar despite high hopes for their use in combat.

Of course, suppose if it did a heal for every target hit by the AoE my new favourite activity would be spamming Crystal Blast into crowds instead of Shards....

AhPook_Is_Here

Xeniph wrote: »

Pro-tip* Block casting is NOT the best way to manage resources.

Nope, but I tossed it out there because most people can't time their block to re-reflect with consistency. Sounds like your points are concerns I have when dueling. I'm not arguing about balancing classes around duels. I'm pretty sure zos isn't going to balance their game around 1v1 scenarios.

Lfehova

Armitas wrote: »

I know that sorcs can bolt, so I put invade on
I know that NBs can stealth so I keep detect pots
I know that DK's can reflect so I put non projectiles on my bar only equip projectiles.

Lol quoted for the awesomeness

Made me chuckle

Also, sadly true despite the mocking nature

frozywozy

Spell reflect (Dragon fire scale) is so messed up at the moment.
It happens really often to me that :
- ranged attacks from npcs go through.
- bow abilities go through (snipe, venom arrow).

Even some none DKs confirmed it to me, they have seen the wings active on a dk, they shot a projectile at him right after but it would not reflect anything for some reasons.

So before you complain about spell reflect being op, you should be happy that it is not reflecting every projectile as intended.

Etaniel

TheBull wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Reflect is the only counter to the massive amount of how users in group pvp currently. With reflect being changed pvp will just be who gets the snipe off first .. Going to be a full archer game.

Idk, dodge/block seems to work too.

DKs say the darnedest things.

Please, stop saying dodge roll and block is a counter....
oh you dodge rolled ! the sniper is now clueless as to what to do ! oh wait no, he's shooting again, and you will run out of stamina before being able to do anything. Block? even with block you take a large chunk of damage, plus you have this awesome healing debuff on you, that stacks up every second because you are getting sniped every second ! and don't tell me to purge because you can't purge fast enough to get rid of all the debuffs. So yes, reflect is the only counter, and it's op only because bows are op at the moment.

Basically everyone here is QQing because DKs are the only one that can survive a wave of snipers. They either want the dks to die like the rest, or to be able to slot the wings too. Fix this stupid bow and wings won't be spammed as much

Gorthax

Orchish wrote: »

It doesn't reflect melee so no idea what you're on about there.

It only reflects for 4 seconds not 6-8. You have two weapon bars, if your build is all range then you have given your self a weakness. Why is it so hard for people to change bar and stop spamming your lethal arrows and crystal fragments at a guy that is quite obviously flapping his big wings?

You cannot or will not adapt therefor something needs nerfing.

sooooo people who DONT use melee are boned, and classes who have nothing BUT ranged dpg *cough* sorcs *cough* are boned because WE wont adapt to an OBVIOUS over powered skill? please, tell me more

Maulkin

Gorthax wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

It doesn't reflect melee so no idea what you're on about there.

It only reflects for 4 seconds not 6-8. You have two weapon bars, if your build is all range then you have given your self a weakness. Why is it so hard for people to change bar and stop spamming your lethal arrows and crystal fragments at a guy that is quite obviously flapping his big wings?

You cannot or will not adapt therefor something needs nerfing.

sooooo people who DONT use melee are boned, and classes who have nothing BUT ranged dpg *cough* sorcs *cough* are boned because WE wont adapt to an OBVIOUS over powered skill? please, tell me more

I'll tell you more....

I'll tell you to make better use of Streak, Velocious Curse, Endless Fury and Resto Heavies none of which are reflected. The only reflected attack is Crystal Frags and if you're wearing S&B you can make those go through the scales too.

Extremely strong though they are, they are killable if you know how to play them, but obviously it's not a quick or easy fight. I'd rather see the damage output of Sorcs increased rather then see DKs nerfed because baddies keep smashing their faces against Scales.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Before you created this thread you should have stopped for a few minutes and did some research on the ability. It's only 4 seconds and It's very obvious when they are using it. I personally feel like it's OP and I would love to see it gone. I don't play a DK though. As it stands I just find other methods to take down those pesky DK's, even if that means waiting for them to lower their guard. If you kill yourself with your own abilities because you were shooting them at a DK after you see giant wings envelop them then it's really own fault. These threads remind me of the countless threads I read about Bolt Escaping sorcerers and how it wasn't fair they couldn't be caught.

Nijjion

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Un-nerf bolt escape and I will never complain about scales again.

Every class has an ability that is "OP" when spammed.

NBs have sap essence.

Templars have Blazing Shield.

DKs have Scales, and flame lash, and talons, and GDB.

Sorcs have... Oh wait... Why are sorcs they ONLY CLASS with a built in punishment for spamming a skill in a game of skill spamming?

You think Bolt is OP when spammed? So is all that other crap.

And don't even try to tell me that pre-nerf Bolt escape was somehow more powerful than reflecting ALL range attacks while rooting people with talons(even using immovable), having the best DPS in the game with one skill and healing for 600HPS all at the same damn time.

In a RvR environment mobility is really powerful, 1 class having that potential is stupid. That in any previous games would be laughed at really, GW2 has classes with mobility over others and they are all the top tier (Ele, warrior, Thief).

Evergnar

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I think the gripe is because ranged was one of the few mitigating weak spots of the whole DK tank setup so people specced some range so they could avoid the talons, whip, swarm/standard spamming at melee range. Now with a single ability they negate ranged too... And many things seem to fall into the reflection category that seem... odd.

^This. It's just nuts that abilities like strife & cripple of a NB are considered projectiles.

Gorthax

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

It doesn't reflect melee so no idea what you're on about there.

It only reflects for 4 seconds not 6-8. You have two weapon bars, if your build is all range then you have given your self a weakness. Why is it so hard for people to change bar and stop spamming your lethal arrows and crystal fragments at a guy that is quite obviously flapping his big wings?

You cannot or will not adapt therefor something needs nerfing.

sooooo people who DONT use melee are boned, and classes who have nothing BUT ranged dpg *cough* sorcs *cough* are boned because WE wont adapt to an OBVIOUS over powered skill? please, tell me more

I'll tell you more....

I'll tell you to make better use of Streak, Velocious Curse, Endless Fury and Resto Heavies none of which are reflected. The only reflected attack is Crystal Frags and if you're wearing S&B you can make those go through the scales too.

Extremely strong though they are, they are killable if you know how to play them, but obviously it's not a quick or easy fight. I'd rather see the damage output of Sorcs increased rather then see DKs nerfed because baddies keep smashing their faces against Scales.

I use velocious curse to drain their stamina, but majority of the time they dont break it, why?! because they can just regen to full health. I use bolt escape, its a nice little tool. endless fury sure, but it does not do any decent damage. I can spam it till I am blue in the face and nothing seems to do anything (max spell damage, 2500+ magicka btw).

I am not saying nerf RS (nor have I EVER in any RS threads I personally have made). I want Sorcs to NOT suck a55. I know all about defensive posture to bounce the CF back blah blah but like I said, melee is NOT my forte. I dont like it. My complaint is NOT about how OP RS is, but about how I hate when people say "baddies" or "L2P" or any other variation when it comes to a sorc complaining about RS.

Someone who DOESNT want to play melee should have options. As a staff sorc you dont.

Also, while VC works wonders (should they want to break it) SP is far better but more costly and more dangerous (have to be closer). They WILL dodge roll out of that. I would also like to put on note here that heavy attack from lightning staff, while very VERY pathetic in channeling and its final attack, does not get reflected just the same as restos. Also, Crushing Shock is not a projectile but all three elements get reflected and the DK takes no damage.

Sure you could say use DoT, but not one DK I have ever fought stands in them, and if they do, they hardly take damage. Again its not a L2P issue, or check build issue. It is how pathetic the damage is. The real issue here is sorcs need better damage numbers, and even terrabad people who just flat out suck at this game can easily play a DK and face roll things. If that doesnt say something is wrong then I dont know what will prove it

DONT NERF DK! BUFF SORC!

*EDIT: Give RS the same treatment as BE! <---- this I would love to see!! It is only fair after all.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Nijjion wrote: »

In a RvR environment mobility is really powerful...

So is the the ability to hard counter about 70% of the games skills with one button.

I am not denying that bolt is a powerful maneuver, I am just saying that bolt gets under people's skin more than DK abilities do due to entirely different reasons.

When a DK beats you, you can quell your cognitive dissonance by telling yourself you were just outplayed by a better player.

When a sorc bolts away with 10% health you scream #@*$(@ I would have had him!!!!!1!!

But in both cases the same thing happened. You got an opponent down to 10% health, then they spammed one button and got the advantage.

Whether it was bolt and the sorc is gone, or dragon blood then whipped to death from a DK with 10% health a second ago, the same thing happened. But people treat it differently and cry for BE nerf while they accept the fact that DKs can have amazing recoveries AND kill you in the process.

Gorthax

see this guy here gets it! @Yolokin_Swagonborn‌ Now the issue is this, since the best mobility in the game is now gone (for the most part) and the new king combo showed up RS+GDB, no one wants to complain about it. Yet when you do people tell you L2P, or you are a baddie, or stop playing your way go melee, etc etc etc. They DONT want it to be fixed. Yes I say fixed because it is clearly broken.

Not every class has the tools to fight that ONE combo...... unless they go melee.... or hope to god someone shows up for back up and by someone I mean like 20+ people so that ONE DK+vamp goes down and everyone can feel good about it until a group of 40+ flappy vamps come running in cuz they know it would take a entire faction to take down their flappy group :P

P.S. Exaggerating mostly. I know it is possible to kill DK 1v1. Mostly you just wish people would show up :P

*edit for typos and such*

Columba

Question...can this be spammed to eliminate gaps between the reflects? I see no visual cue when this is not active.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Columba wrote: »

Question...can this be spammed to eliminate gaps between the reflects? I see no visual cue when this is not active.

Yes. Even a mediocre player can count to 4 and recast it.

k2blader

Sanct16 wrote: »

I don't think there is any DK who spams reflect. It lasts for 4 seconds and deals no damage. Why should someone spam it?

The tone of your post is serious, and I just want to confirm you are actually serious?

k2blader

Orchish wrote: »

Why is it okay for anyone to spam lethal arrow or crystal fragments but it's not okay for me to spam reflect? You have two bars, make use of them both.

If you actually think sorcs commonly "spam" crystal fragments in PvP you either aren't PvPing or you PvP in an alternate reality.

The only DKs who might have any right to whine about crystal fragments are those who never use reflective scales.

TheBull

Scales eliminates entire weapons and skill lines for an indefinite amount of time Is there anything else so powerful?

Domander

If your setup is projectile based, and you want to be able to fight a player that is able to reflect/absorb those projectiles, you should probably rethink your setup, OR accept that you are setup to destroy some builds and not others. It's the same as a dk that chooses melee, anything outside of 22m is unattackable, on a wall - can't attack, on a hill - can't attack.. in middle of a zerg? bad idea to attack.... etc...

moving on

Panda244

Xeniph wrote: »

To be fair, my DK with 139 spell power only heals 450-525 (depending on target) with Flame Lash exploit.

Just to dispel it being a massive heal, it's decent for sure but not quite as powerful as that. And it does have a 4 second internal CD, and requires the target be exploitable.

Still good enough to have on the bar though! Carry on

As an emp it heals for 800-1.2k (On a level 49 with 90 spell damage, and the Imperial racical procs for 300-500)


Anywhom as pointed out above RS should not be nerfed if you're a projectile based build, it's just entirely contradictary. If you're a sorc, use 1h1s and reflect it back, FOR MORE DAMAGE for one. If you don't want to reflect it back, to bad, that's on you. As far as NB stamina based builds go, all you guys do is sit back and spam one ability and hope to win, one. PROJECTILE. Ability, so no, absolutely not, no one should be nerfed in this scenario, though I do agree with sorc damage buff. And as a v1 DK, in light armor, with a melee build, I cannot tell you how aggravating it is to spam reflect an entire fight because one person. With one lethal arrow, can be the difference between life and death, thanks to that *** healing debuff.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

TheBull wrote: »

Scales eliminates entire weapons and skill lines for an indefinite amount of time Is there anything else so powerful?

Bolt Escape apparently. There were and are counters to Bolt Escape too. It is outranged by every other charge ability and projectiles still hit (yes even the BoL morph has some severe flaws). Yet for some reason the answer to Bolt was NOT L2P, it was L2Nerf.

But for scales, the answer is always L2P. Are DK's the only class that don't have to L2P?


There is NO consistency here. Either all powerful skills should get a "spam punishment" nerf or none should.

Junipus

I think that RS needs to be changed so that weapon projectiles aren't reflected. It can be compensated by reducing incoming damage by 40% or so. That way DKs are put on an equal footing with other classes who aren't able to stand in the middle of the field and laugh.

Saying all that however, after getting frustrated as a sniper with having to let DKs go past due to RS spamming, as a NB I have an entire bar dedicated to taking down DKs and now they're my most killed class.

For myself, it would be nice to have the change (NOT nerf) to RS, but I find it far more entertaining to kill them while they still think they're invulnerable.

k2blader

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I'll tell you more....

I'll tell you to make better use of Streak, Velocious Curse, Endless Fury and Resto Heavies none of which are reflected. The only reflected attack is Crystal Frags and if you're wearing S&B you can make those go through the scales too.

Extremely strong though they are, they are killable if you know how to play them, but obviously it's not a quick or easy fight. I'd rather see the damage output of Sorcs increased rather then see DKs nerfed because baddies keep smashing their faces against Scales.

"The only reflected attack is crystal frags" is a false statement. Yes you listed a few sorc class abilities which are not reflected (one was only just recently fixed to not reflect an explosion) and one weapon ability that is not reflected, but all are fairly laughably weak, with the possible exception of Streak irritation, against a DKs self heal and other counters. While going sword & board is an option, the stamina cost to the sorc is high, especially for just one reflect (assuming it doesn't bug or lag and hit the sorc anyway) and requires much greater resource consideration than what the DK must consider. If there was a way to have a 3rd weapon swap bar I'd definitely run S&B for the sole purpose of using against DKs but imo it's just not effective enough for the group/objective playstyle I prefer.

It isn't impossible for a sorc to kill a DK 1v1 but the sorc who does that has a much higher skill level than the DK. Personally I think it's far more efficient to wait for more people before engaging and using my "safe" weak ass abilities (the ones you mentioned) while those with hopefully better-hitting melee can do the heavy work. :-P

Maulkin

k2blader wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I'll tell you more....

I'll tell you to make better use of Streak, Velocious Curse, Endless Fury and Resto Heavies none of which are reflected. The only reflected attack is Crystal Frags and if you're wearing S&B you can make those go through the scales too.

Extremely strong though they are, they are killable if you know how to play them, but obviously it's not a quick or easy fight. I'd rather see the damage output of Sorcs increased rather then see DKs nerfed because baddies keep smashing their faces against Scales.

"The only reflected attack is crystal frags" is a false statement. Yes you listed a few sorc class abilities which are not reflected (one was only just recently fixed to not reflect an explosion) and one weapon ability that is not reflected, but all are fairly laughably weak, with the possible exception of Streak irritation, against a DKs self heal and other counters. While going sword & board is an option, the stamina cost to the sorc is high, especially for just one reflect (assuming it doesn't bug or lag and hit the sorc anyway) and requires much greater resource consideration than what the DK must consider. If there was a way to have a 3rd weapon swap bar I'd definitely run S&B for the sole purpose of using against DKs but imo it's just not effective enough for the group/objective playstyle I prefer.

It isn't impossible for a sorc to kill a DK 1v1 but the sorc who does that has a much higher skill level than the DK. Personally I think it's far more efficient to wait for more people before engaging and using my "safe" weak ass abilities (the ones you mentioned) while those with hopefully better-hitting melee can do the heavy work. :-P

How is it a false statement if it's actually true? Crystal Frags IS the only Sorc class attack that is reflected by scales.

Also regarding the resource considerations you talked about, balanced builds always fair better than glass cannon builds in 1v1 or sustained combat. If you gonna fight a DK 1v1, you better have some stamina regen too, instead of plunging 160+ into magicka regen while your stamina is at 70. s&b on the Sorc works unbelievably well, a lot of top duellists use s&b on theirs.

Overall, the assessment that DKs are easier to play is true. It's also true that it requires slightly higher skill to win that fight. An average DK can be a tough opponent for a good Sorc. But guess what a) it's doable and b) the game is not balanced on 1v1. I can achieve much much higher kill streaks on my Sorc and dictate battles more through my Negates than I can on my DK.

I'm all for some Sorc love in terms of extra damage and some fixes to impen so crit surge works better, but otherwise I think the class is fine and so is the DK. And finally if I ever see a solo DK and I'm solo too, I always go for them. 7/10 times they'll be a player less honed in duelling and I'll kill them. The other 3/10 times, I can Bolt Escape away :P The only ones I fear are other Sorcs, because you can't disengage from the fight if it turns bad for you.