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REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF

  • Cody
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    well 90% of the population already runs a DK.... so your calculations are already slightly fulfiled:D
  • Cody
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    Kypho wrote: »
    Dont nerf reflect till they didnt nerf bow.

    I know it need ballance, and hope they will adjust that skill, but first the bow. At least DKs have something against lethalspam.

    eveyrone has something against lethal spam.

    its called paying attention and rolling.

    when the healing de-buff gest fixed, people are still going to spam it, because its a good ability.

    just keep your guard up and interrupt/roll and you will be fine.
    Edited by Cody on November 30, 2014 5:00PM
  • Cody
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    people, by melee he meant arrows... OK?
  • FluffiestOne
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    I think they don't need a nerf. Madcuzbad
    Fluffy
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  • Smexerz
    Smexerz
    Soul Shriven
    Yeah they should add like a 33 % increase if casted again withing 10-15 seconds to avoid spam, that would balance it out i believe.
  • Roechacca
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    TheBull wrote: »
    Roechacca wrote: »
    If Ya see a guy glowing red with wings just don't shoot till it wears off . It's not that big of a deal . You can still sap them with Gandalf wands while its up or melee .
    30 seconds later? 1 minute later?

    It's 6 seconds . Unless the server lags and time slows down like in the Matrix . Which has happened .

    This one time , the server lagged while I was using Impale on my NB . It left me stuck in a Saturday Night Fever pose . So I went into ITunes N started playing it . I couldn't Fire any attacks , just point at the enemy N look fantastically fashionable . We won the battle . An after it was over I was able to fix it by typing /idle5 . Which made me even more awesome at the end . Needless to say it lead to me logging out of the game an taking my girl to the dance club . She was thrilled I wanted to go out N asked where the inspiration came from .


    I didn't tell her
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  • Sypher
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    Roechacca wrote: »
    TheBull wrote: »
    Roechacca wrote: »
    If Ya see a guy glowing red with wings just don't shoot till it wears off . It's not that big of a deal . You can still sap them with Gandalf wands while its up or melee .
    30 seconds later? 1 minute later?

    It's 6 seconds . Unless the server lags and time slows down like in the Matrix . Which has happened .

    This one time , the server lagged while I was using Impale on my NB . It left me stuck in a Saturday Night Fever pose . So I went into ITunes N started playing it . I couldn't Fire any attacks , just point at the enemy N look fantastically fashionable . We won the battle . An after it was over I was able to fix it by typing /idle5 . Which made me even more awesome at the end . Needless to say it lead to me logging out of the game an taking my girl to the dance club . She was thrilled I wanted to go out N asked where the inspiration came from .


    I didn't tell her

    It's 4 seconds, and if all your dps is ranged and have no other options it's your issue, not a class issue.
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  • Roechacca
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    Roechacca wrote: »
    TheBull wrote: »
    Roechacca wrote: »
    If Ya see a guy glowing red with wings just don't shoot till it wears off . It's not that big of a deal . You can still sap them with Gandalf wands while its up or melee .
    30 seconds later? 1 minute later?

    It's 6 seconds . Unless the server lags and time slows down like in the Matrix . Which has happened .

    This one time , the server lagged while I was using Impale on my NB . It left me stuck in a Saturday Night Fever pose . So I went into ITunes N started playing it . I couldn't Fire any attacks , just point at the enemy N look fantastically fashionable . We won the battle . An after it was over I was able to fix it by typing /idle5 . Which made me even more awesome at the end . Needless to say it lead to me logging out of the game an taking my girl to the dance club . She was thrilled I wanted to go out N asked where the inspiration came from .


    I didn't tell her

    It's 4 seconds, and if all your dps is ranged and have no other options it's your issue, not a class issue.

    Is it 4 Mississippi seconds or 4 seconds in a Pepsi add ?
    Roechacca NB DC
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  • dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO
    Orchish wrote: »
    It doesn't reflect melee so no idea what you're on about there.

    It only reflects for 4 seconds not 6-8. You have two weapon bars, if your build is all range then you have given your self a weakness. Why is it so hard for people to change bar and stop spamming your lethal arrows and crystal fragments at a guy that is quite obviously flapping his big wings?

    You cannot or will not adapt therefor something needs nerfing.

    It reflects non magic based projectiles that's what he means by mêlée. dk is strongest in close quarters and people feel its not balanced that the "weakness" of reflect is to go close and fight where dk shines the most. I'm not saying Nerf but dk has much more strengths than weaknesses compared to every other class. If they Nerf anything it should be battleroar.
  • Samadhi
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    Goldie wrote: »
    Spells & Ranged Attacks... May as well reflect ballista fire while we are at it! ...

    This is a brilliant suggestion.
    @ZOS please do this and ignore the rest of this thread.
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
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  • Gargragrond
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    According to my kill counter statistics, dk is currently the weakest class (based on kills/deaths ratio) - but that's only one data point - it would be nice to know what other people's stats tell..?
    Imo dk have already been nerfed to the point that there's only one viable build - when was the last time you saw dk without s/b, and the exact same skills? I haven't seen one for a while - probably because they got killed before there was a chance to notice they were dk.
  • Samadhi
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    According to my kill counter statistics, dk is currently the weakest class (based on kills/deaths ratio) - but that's only one data point - it would be nice to know what other people's stats tell..? ...

    My dual restoration Nightblade healer build gets Kill Counter credited for kills made by basically every person that gets tagged with my heals, but that by no means makes my pure healer build an unstoppable monster with a 70-1 kill to death ratio.

    Think that Dragonknights having limited-to-no ranged Class skills could hold higher account for their relative KDR on your counter.
    Would be interested to see if Dragonknight players have kill counters that show them having dramatically more deaths than kills though.
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Vesir
    Vesir
    Reflect is the only counter to the massive amount of bow users in group pvp currently. With reflect being changed pvp will just be who gets the snipe off first .. Going to be a full archer game.

    i believe that's the entire point of it being considered OP.

    It is the only counter yet only 1 class gets that counter

    (not that i consider it OP)
  • TheBull
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    Reflect is the only counter to the massive amount of how users in group pvp currently. With reflect being changed pvp will just be who gets the snipe off first .. Going to be a full archer game.
    Idk, dodge/block seems to work too.

    DKs say the darnedest things.
  • Asgari
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    TheBull wrote: »
    Reflect is the only counter to the massive amount of how users in group pvp currently. With reflect being changed pvp will just be who gets the snipe off first .. Going to be a full archer game.
    Idk, dodge/block seems to work too.

    DKs say the darnedest things.

    Yet my main is a Sorc and i also have a NB alt? I played the first 6 months of this game as a Sorc and then switched to NB and DK to mix it up.

    Should we just make ESO 1 race and 1 class with 1 set of skills to use? So everyone can have the same stuff and not need to cry nerf anymore?
    Formerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
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  • kijima
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    Yeah, no thanks.

    I like the fact we have four classes with class specific skill lines, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Do some need tweaking? Of course they do, and it'll continue to be the case as it is with any MMO.

    What your suggesting is to get rid of the whiners by nerfing the game, that's a very short sighted veiwpoint. No thanks if it's all the same to you.

    Even if this did happen (and I pray to Talos it doesn't) you'd still get whiners QQ'ing on the forums about being beaten by players using hacks, when the real reason they got beaten is because the player the fought was a superior player, with synergy in his/her build, with skill...

    Many of the QQ'ers find it hard to swallow that they are rubbish players and can get torn apart at any moment by a half decent player.

    It's not like everyone doesn't have the option of running reflective scales, or fear, or negate, or blazing saddles (see what I did there :P) because we all have access to leveling another class if we so chose.
    Been here since Round IV Beta - You'd think I'd be half reasonable at this game by now...
  • TheBull
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    TheBull wrote: »
    Reflect is the only counter to the massive amount of how users in group pvp currently. With reflect being changed pvp will just be who gets the snipe off first .. Going to be a full archer game.
    Idk, dodge/block seems to work too.

    DKs say the darnedest things.

    Yet my main is a Sorc and i also have a NB alt? I played the first 6 months of this game as a Sorc and then switched to NB and DK to mix it up.

    Should we just make ESO 1 race and 1 class with 1 set of skills to use? So everyone can have the same stuff and not need to cry nerf anymore?
    Yet you don't know how to use dodge and block against Lethal arrow?
  • Asgari
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    TheBull wrote: »
    TheBull wrote: »
    Reflect is the only counter to the massive amount of how users in group pvp currently. With reflect being changed pvp will just be who gets the snipe off first .. Going to be a full archer game.
    Idk, dodge/block seems to work too.

    DKs say the darnedest things.

    Yet my main is a Sorc and i also have a NB alt? I played the first 6 months of this game as a Sorc and then switched to NB and DK to mix it up.

    Should we just make ESO 1 race and 1 class with 1 set of skills to use? So everyone can have the same stuff and not need to cry nerf anymore?
    Yet you don't know how to use dodge and block against Lethal arrow?

    I dodge roll more than 99% of the player base in ESO. I run a minimum of 2k stamina on all my chars for just rolling.
    Formerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
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  • Gargragrond
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    Samadhi wrote: »
    My dual restoration Nightblade healer build gets Kill Counter credited for kills made by basically every person that gets tagged with my heals, but that by no means makes my pure healer build an unstoppable monster with a 70-1 kill to death ratio.

    Think that Dragonknights having limited-to-no ranged Class skills could hold higher account for their relative KDR on your counter.
    Would be interested to see if Dragonknight players have kill counters that show them having dramatically more deaths than kills though.

    The exact value of kdr is not very useful due to reason you mentioned, but comparing class-specific ratios might offer some insight. e.g. dk kills / killed by a dk. vs templar kills / killed by a templar. This should balance out population differences and it doesn't matter whether it was you or someone you healed that actually made the kill. Take a large enough sample and you should get some idea who kills and who dies more on average.

    Whether this is a good way to measure class strengths is debatable, but at least it's based on data instead of perceptions. I.e. I may feel that dk is more powerful because it took me 10 minutes to kill one, but I forget that nb that killed me in 2 seconds.
  • Xsorus
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    Imo dk have already been nerfed to the point that there's only one viable build - when was the last time you saw dk without s/b, and the exact same skills? I haven't seen one for a while - probably because they got killed before there was a chance to notice they were dk.

    Almost every DK i see now is a Bow build using Reflect and Spamming Lethal Arrows. If someone jumps them at melee, they switch to sword/board and then use the best single target heal in the game, Dragon Blood while combining shield charge with Flame lash for the best lifetap in the game.

    Reflect needs to be similar to the shield ability and only reflect the next incoming attack, not all ranged attacks for 4 seconds.


    So you're upset you're dying to a Stamina DK? Since that's who will be spamming Lethal Arrow, a medium armor stamina DK

    Also Flame Lash in no way is the best lifetap in the game, that honor belongs to Funnel Health.

    Flame Lash has a ICD of something like 4 or 5 seconds... and heals at best 400ish if your'e magicka based... Funnel Health heals for vastly more then that... and you can stack it on multiple targets.
  • SRIBES
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    If you look to the allaince war forum you will see another reflect thread in its natural habitat, you can see the overpopulated nooblet species crying for nerfs and the slowly dying l2p breed.
    Come on guys we must admit that reflect does need a nerf, but it's not as severe as some of the people on here are making it out to be. Maybe make it only absorb spells instead? Or give the caster a damage reduction to all their other attacks. I really don't think reflect should get the bolt escape treatment no matter what.. Bolt escape should not have been nerfed but it was a poorly named ability and was meant as a disengage rather then an escape. There will always be abilities that need nerfs and buffs. Reflect does not need to be nerfed as some people are making it out to be. I can kill a group of 18+ bad players but I can't manage to kill 4 good players. I ran into a group of only sorcs and had reflect up most of the time, they kited me around with streak and mainly resto/cursed me. The fact that I have been beat by good players in every class means just one good player can show up and ruin a DKs day when he is trying to wreck some pugs.
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  • Samadhi
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    ...
    Also Flame Lash in no way is the best lifetap in the game, that honor belongs to Funnel Health.

    Flame Lash has a ICD of something like 4 or 5 seconds... and heals at best 400ish if your'e magicka based... Funnel Health heals for vastly more then that... and you can stack it on multiple targets.

    Funnel Health on 2500 Magicka and 136 Spell Damage gives my Nightblade around 130 health every 2 seconds on V10 mobs. In PvP it is normally lower than that.

    The support HoTs applying to other people is pretty nice though.
    Being a ranged attack also makes Funnel Health shine, so long as the target doesn't run reflects.
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Vesir
    Vesir
    Vesir wrote: »
    Reflect is the only counter to the massive amount of bow users in group pvp currently. With reflect being changed pvp will just be who gets the snipe off first .. Going to be a full archer game.

    i believe that's the entire point of it being considered OP.

    It is the only counter yet only 1 class gets that counter

    (not that i consider it OP)

    Do you understand each class has various skills that the other classes do not?

    ... yes, i have played this game for more than 1 minute
    S&b has a reflect for everyone else to use.
    The mechanic of Reflect can only be reflected once by the opponent so if you reflect back it will hit them regardless. It is a 300+ magic based skill that only lasts 4 seconds and needs to be constantly reapplied if you do not want any projectiles hitting you (excluding re-reflected projectiles).

    don't even try to compare reflective scales to the one hand and shield reflect, they're not even remotely in the same ballpark, and the only time they are is in a duel. In any actual fight in cyrodil its damn near impossible to get a 1v1 and reflect is a really good ability to bring enemies into the DK's favorable area (melee). Reflective scales scales exponentially in its power based on the number of enemies attacking the DK, it is barely similar to the 1 and done sword and shield ability.
    If players played smart there wouldn't be an issue with reflect. The only reason this is being discussed is because Bow is so prevalent now in PvP. With the changes in 1.6 to magicka and stamina builds anyone with a 2h or duel wield will wreak havoc on a dk in light armor.

    i 100% agree with you, it's why i said in my first statement that i don't have a problem with reflective scales.
    Please first look at all of the available skills and abilities at your disposal before you cry nerf nerf nerf and ruin another class. Sorcs are already utterly useless in PvP and PvE except for Negate because of all the complaints. Focus on fixing skills lacking behind and not ones working as intended and that cause no real threat to anyone unless your dead set on fighting from afar in the shadows.

    Again, i was trying to explain their thought process behind why they think reflective scales is OP, i'm not crying for a nerf for it at all.
    Edited by Vesir on December 1, 2014 1:02AM
  • AhPook_Is_Here
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    I think it is fine the way it is. I have a sorc and a DK, and I really don't have too much trouble with most DKs on my sorc.

    Last night I was pretty wrecked and tossed on my trials gear for giggles and ran around mashing crushing shock on various targets. I was really surprised how many DK's never even bothered (or had the chance) to use scales before melting.

    I'm feeling like the classes are about balanced, I have a low VR nightblade and I am finding the play rewarding. I don't have a templar yet but from experience with my DK, I find templars are stroger melee tanks due to blazing shields mostly, and DKs are more ranged tanks.

    If there are no tanks in this game the fights will really be a lot more static and the lines will move less. I don't think every class needs scales either to balance it, nor does every class need streak or blazing shield or shadow cloak for that matter. Those skills define the class, and are best left that way for diversity.

    “Whatever.”
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  • Suntzu1414

    ST
    Jahosefat wrote: »
    Give it the bolt escape treatment! (increased mag cost if used withing certain time period with decreased mag regen during that period ;) ). I don't see why ZOS has not made this change but was so quick to jump on bolt escape.

    DKs need the reflect to stay alive currently, so you can't take it away without making major class changes elsewhere. However, infinitely spamming one very strong ability seems inblanced.... (and reminiscent of the old bolt escape complaints). So make the second cast within 4 secs of the first cost double, and have magica regen halved during the duration of the second cast.

    This is so close to the issues (complaints) people had with streak. You could spam it too much, but sorcs needed it to stay alive. Do the same thing with reflective scales and it will be much more balanced.

    very thoughtful comment.


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  • Sanct16
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    DK skills are already far mor expensive than other class skills. Just l2p and scales is fine.
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