Major issues with the game - by Angry Joe

Jeremy

Jake71887 wrote: »

madterryk wrote: »

Some of them were. Others not so much.

For example: when you start complaining about having to walk to complete your quests - especially considering this game has waypoints scattered all over the place - he loses all manner of credibility with me. Or complaining that not all of the quests had climatic endings. What does he want, an epic battle between good and evil from every NPC he comes across?

These are just some of many petty gripes he dwelled on in that ridiculous review.

Well the walking was tied into the cost of horses, which is a real issue for a lot of people. And the majority of quests are anticlimactic.... Not that every one is, but the fact that most are.

But why is it such an issue for him to just walk until he can afford a horse?

There is literally a way point like every few inches on the map. Is that how lazy this new generation of gamers have really become, that they can't be bothered to walk for a few minutes to complete a quest?

I like convenience too. But I draw the line at expecting games to pick me up and carry me around to finish my quests. Especially on what is suppose to be an adventure game.

knightblaster

Luciana wrote: »

knightblaster wrote: »

Precisely, as long as we use the word "most" and not "all", I agree with this assessment completely. It's the core issue that underlies all of the other design problems with the game. Anyone who is not blinded by new car smell or fan syndrome can see this, imo.

Ehh yeah, I should have probably been more specific in my sentence there, never my intention to speak for -all- mmo/elder scrolls players, I certainly see and understand that some people truly feel that nothing at all is wrong with the game.

As I said though, to me, Zenimax needs to make choices, right now ESO, while definitely having been a lot of fun to me so far, my main now being Veteran rank 1, ultimately ESO is stuck between trying to be an Elder Scrolls game while also wanting to be an MMO, the result is that it does neither any real justice.

I feel that I shouldn't have to download often buggy add ons to get things that I consider basic in every other MMO I actively play (Tera Online, SWTOR, STO), those basic MMO features are missing entirely instead of being optional like I think they should be, at least the things that don't affect others, as I can understand optional proper 1 to 0 skill bars (multiple), would heavily impact those that do feel comfortable with this silly action bar system we have now.

And remember, most of these MMO functions ARE missing to increase the feeling of playing an Elder Scrolls game, as obviously Skyrim had also been known for this kind of minimalist UI, and it worked there, to me, it does not here.

Yep, as I said, I agree. A halfway house design. It's a core issue, and not a really solvable one.

Etchesketch

300k

rawne1980b16_ESO

The Gummy Bear song has over 400 million views.....

Lets not say that views make something good shall we .... although it is catchy.

People watch it right?

It must be good right?

Lets be brutally honest .... cute cat videos get more views than some of those Youtube "celebrities".

Jake71887

Jeremy wrote: »

But why is it such an issue for him to just walk until he can afford a horse?

There is literally a way point like every few inches on the map. Is that how lazy this new generation of gamers have really become, that they can't be bothered to walk for a few minutes to complete a quest?

I like convenience too. But I draw the line at expecting games to pick me up and carry me around to finish my quests. Especially on what is suppose to be an adventure game.

The wayshrines don't really cut down on your walk time that much, unless you're willing to pay the fee, instead of walking to a shrine to tele to the next. And in Cyrodiil it is horrendous having to walk... Even just from one keep to another takes forever.

Etchesketch

Not the point...

300k views by people looking for info on Elder Scrolls Online.... not cats.

Show me the good reviews with that sort of viewership?

Look I am a fan of Bethesda from day one.. Not just mouth, my money is where my mouth is. I wanted this game to be great, as much or better than most. I just don't play games with rose colored glasses on and I make respectful requests for them to fix problems with the game.

I've seen MANY in fact most, games like this go under and it's always for the same reasons. Sad really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPMhanzEXb8

I don't just Say I support Bethesda.

Jeremy

Jake71887 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

But why is it such an issue for him to just walk until he can afford a horse?

There is literally a way point like every few inches on the map. Is that how lazy this new generation of gamers have really become, that they can't be bothered to walk for a few minutes to complete a quest?

I like convenience too. But I draw the line at expecting games to pick me up and carry me around to finish my quests. Especially on what is suppose to be an adventure game.

The wayshrines don't really cut down on your walk time that much, unless you're willing to pay the fee, instead of walking to a shrine to tele to the next.

There isn't a fee to transport from way point to way point though. And they can cut down your walking time by a huge amount. For example, I can instantly travel from Devon's Watch to Fungal Grotto in a matter of minutes. Two places on opposite ends of the map.

Getting around on this game is exceedingly easy. For him to complain about the need to walk the short distances between way shrines while questing is just silly to me.

Chelo

Laura wrote: »

the problem with eso is it was released too soon. it feels almost half baked and incomplete. There is nothing wrong with the core of the game IMO and it will only get better.

Lot of things he said were absolutely wrong though like I'm pretty sure you can't spend an extra 20 bucks to play any race on any alliance.

Too soon? For real man O_o? This game was in development since 2007... 7 years are enough time to release an MMO...

Jake71887

Jeremy wrote: »

Jake71887 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

But why is it such an issue for him to just walk until he can afford a horse?

There is literally a way point like every few inches on the map. Is that how lazy this new generation of gamers have really become, that they can't be bothered to walk for a few minutes to complete a quest?

I like convenience too. But I draw the line at expecting games to pick me up and carry me around to finish my quests. Especially on what is suppose to be an adventure game.

The wayshrines don't really cut down on your walk time that much, unless you're willing to pay the fee, instead of walking to a shrine to tele to the next.

There isn't a fee to transport from way point to way point though. And they can cut down your walking time by a huge amount. For example, I can instantly travel from Devon's Watch to Fungal Grotto in a matter of minutes. Two places on opposite ends of the map. So I'm not understanding your argument here.

Which is great if you're standing next to a shrine, but most people's experience go like this:

Out questing, bags get full...
Walk a few minutes to get back to a shrine to port to a town.
Walk a few minutes from the shrine around the city(Cause most cities shrines are outside the city, and soem cities are horribly spread out)
Walk a few minutes back to the shrine, to port back to a shrine close to your quests.
Walka few minutes back to your quest.

Before you know it, you've wasted 20 minutes, and most of it pointlessly walking.

And I'll take that since you didn't address the cyrodiil issue, that you have either not participated, or didn't have a rebuttal.. because walking is by far the most noticeable there.

byghostlightrwb17_ESO

Greydog wrote: »

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

ENAK wrote: »

Hi,

Joe's review of ESO is up (I'm sure others posted the link but here it is again, just for measure): Here...

The review shows what's wrong with the game... Seems most people agree, judging by the comments and thumbs up on the vid.

Also... Why is there no easily accessible open forum here?!? It's hidden somewhere in the category map - level 3 or 4 as if to discourage discussion or something...

Sorry but Angry Joe's word is hardly one that carries weight with everyone, in fact I am yet to see a single thing he has ever done that was worth sitting through. Likewise his fans, to say everyone seems to agree with him based on his comments is flaw. 1) since when has anyone really said anything nice on youtube ever 2) the only people who would take time posting comments on his page are those who support his "style"

People seem to think the numbers of subscribers people have is somehow a sign of their importance. Thats like saying Fox News is a valued and balanced source in the world of news just because it has heaps of viewers. Hardly.

If you really want your opinion of someone else's views to carry any weight you really need to buck it up and actually listen to what they are saying, san's your predetermined feelings on the matter.

This is the first online review I've ever watched and while I agree with much of what he said I still had to read thru his "angry" persona to understand where he was coming from.

Same goes for your Fox quip ..have you ever actually watched or are your opinions predetermined by what others have told you.

Criticism is just another's opinion. Actual critical thought requires an understanding of that other opinion.

nope stand by my Fox quip I quite enjoy turning it on and see people invent news, not sure what is sadder is the people who invent it or the people who believe it. Likewise Angry Joe speaks to this angry, lame and hyperbole generation or people. Everyone who thinks they are experts in every field, everyone who thinks everything is crap. and they are somehow better than everyone else who have grounded expectations for things. I dont think ESO is perfect but the things it does right are better than the things it doesnt.

rawne1980b16_ESO

Etchesketch wrote: »

Not the point...

300k views by people looking for info on Elder Scrolls Online.... not cats.

Show me the good reviews with that sort of viewership?

Look I am a fan of Bethesda from day one.. Not just mouth, my money is where my mouth is. I wanted this game to be great, as much or better than most. I just don't play games with rose colored glasses on and I make respectful requests for them to fix problems with the game.

I've seen MANY in fact most, games like this go under and it's always for the same reasons. Sad really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPMhanzEXb8

I don't just Say I support Bethesda.

I don't disagree with you as such, I just don't like to use view count.

Bathesda are one of only 2 companies i'll gladly buy games from without researching first ... the other being CDProject RED.

As it happens i'm eagerly awaiting news of Fallout 4 which i'm hoping will be announced soon .... I need more Fallout.

The game has issues, that goes without saying. Even the more rabid of ESO's fans will admit it has bugs and a bot problem.

I think the main problem people have with Joe is he didn't actually play a lot of the content he's talking about, vet content specifically ... he was only level 19 on the weekend (my daughter is one of his followers, I get to keep up on news even if I don't want it).

The problem I have, as someone who has watched a lot of his videos, is for someone who calls himself "Angry Joe" .... he isn't angry very often. In fact, most of his reviews are praising games and throwing around "badass seals approval".

But whether people love him or hate him it doesn't make his opinion any less valid to himself or his fans.

Jake71887

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I dont think ESO is perfect but the things it does right are better than the things it doesnt.

Really? It seems like it did a lot either poorly, or adequately to me...

Jeremy

Jake71887 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Jake71887 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

But why is it such an issue for him to just walk until he can afford a horse?

There is literally a way point like every few inches on the map. Is that how lazy this new generation of gamers have really become, that they can't be bothered to walk for a few minutes to complete a quest?

I like convenience too. But I draw the line at expecting games to pick me up and carry me around to finish my quests. Especially on what is suppose to be an adventure game.

The wayshrines don't really cut down on your walk time that much, unless you're willing to pay the fee, instead of walking to a shrine to tele to the next.

There isn't a fee to transport from way point to way point though. And they can cut down your walking time by a huge amount. For example, I can instantly travel from Devon's Watch to Fungal Grotto in a matter of minutes. Two places on opposite ends of the map. So I'm not understanding your argument here.

Which is great if you're standing next to a shrine, but most people's experience go like this:

Out questing, bags get full...
Walk a few minutes to get back to a shrine to port to a town.
Walk a few minutes from the shrine around the city(Cause most cities shrines are outside the city, and soem cities are horribly spread out)
Walk a few minutes back to the shrine, to port back to a shrine close to your quests.
Walka few minutes back to your quest.

Before you know it, you've wasted 20 minutes, and most of it pointlessly walking.

And I'll take that since you didn't address the cyrodiil issue, that you have either not participated, or didn't have a rebuttal.. because walking is by far the most noticeable there.

That is correct. I have only been there twice and am not comfortable commenting about it.

I did notice the map was vast - so I believe it was intended to take large amounts of time to traverse. This was probably done to prevent gank parties from zipping around slaughtering people inside a smaller map. But that is just a guess.

In any case, the distance between way shrines is very reasonable while questing. If walking a few minutes to reach a shrine so you can instantly teleport back to town is too much of a hassle then I believe we have reached critical mass.

I suppose games must offer instant teleports to where ever you want to go now else players like Angry Joe are going to feel forced to walk the blank spans of nothingness or what ever ridiculous description it was he used.

This is one subject I don't think we are going to find agreement on. Because I really don't have a problem with walking around on a game designed to be an adventure/exploration game.

Etchesketch

Don't get caught up on his name.

Point to where he is wrong.

Nowhere in that video did I outright disagree with him. In fact, for the most part, I found it EXACTLY to be my impression so far.

Fans of the game bought early access already. ZoS doesn't have to work very hard to get most of us to subscribe. Its the people that join now and tomorrow and the next day that will decide if this game survives.

It's the level 20 and below content/problems that will be the deciding factor.

The no grouping issue,
the bot issue,

Those are the killers.

Valn

ENAK wrote: »

The review shows what's wrong with the game... Seems most people agree, judging by the comments and thumbs up on the vid.

Angry Joe is no an MMO player. And the people who thumbed up aren't either.

byghostlightrwb17_ESO

Etchesketch wrote: »

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Etchesketch wrote: »

40 thousand views in the last hour....

Say what you want, people watch him.

people eat millions of McDonalds cheeseburgers every day, doesnt mean they are good or nutritious.

Just mean there are a lot of silly people in the world who cant make up their own mind.

That's such a great analogy.

this guy will end up with over a million views on this game review. Not everyone will even agree with him.

I just like to make fun of the obvious fanboi trolling that constantly like to try and take shots at him or anyone else that are popular on youtube.

Let's see YOUR youtube review with actual viewer numbers.

Im a grown adult and learnt long ago things with the biggest numbers arent the best. Everyone goes to Paris every year to see the Eiffel Tower yet it is the least interesting thing in the city, while the best things are empty cos everyone follows the sheep. Likewise just because every person on the planet seems to have their own live feeds on twitch or channel on youtube doesn't mean all of them are worth your time. Why would I bother adding my stuff to an already overpopulate online culture? I would rather spend my time playing the game and making up my own opinion and talk between my friends, my concerns or likes. I dont need someone else telling me what they thought, I make up my own mind.

Jake71887

Jeremy wrote: »

That is correct. I have only been there twice and am not comfortable commenting about it.

I did notice the map was vast - so I believe it was intended to take large amounts of time to traverse. This was probably done to prevent gank parties from zipping around slaughtering people inside a smaller map. But that is just a guess.

In any case, the distance between way shrines is very reasonable while questing. If walking a few minutes to reach a shrine so you can instantly teleport back to town is too much of a hassle then I believe we have reached critical mass.

I suppose games must offer instant teleports to where ever you want to go now else players like Angry Joe are going to feel forced to walk the blank spans of nothingness or what ever ridiculous description it was he used

This is one subject I don't think we are going to find agreement on. Because I really don't have a problem with walking around on a game designed to be an adventure/exploration game.

No one was asking for instant teleports... The entire issue was that horses are unnecessarily expensive for the amount of walking involved in playing(As AngryJoe said: especially in PVP). No one wants to spend half their play-time walking, and with the price of horses, many people find themselves doing just that.

byghostlightrwb17_ESO

Jake71887 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

But why is it such an issue for him to just walk until he can afford a horse?

There is literally a way point like every few inches on the map. Is that how lazy this new generation of gamers have really become, that they can't be bothered to walk for a few minutes to complete a quest?

I like convenience too. But I draw the line at expecting games to pick me up and carry me around to finish my quests. Especially on what is suppose to be an adventure game.

The wayshrines don't really cut down on your walk time that much, unless you're willing to pay the fee, instead of walking to a shrine to tele to the next. And in Cyrodiil it is horrendous having to walk... Even just from one keep to another takes forever.

hate to see how you would have coped playing a real game like EQ or DAoC, there are far too many quick travel options in this game as it is.

Etchesketch

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Etchesketch wrote: »

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Etchesketch wrote: »

40 thousand views in the last hour....

Say what you want, people watch him.

people eat millions of McDonalds cheeseburgers every day, doesnt mean they are good or nutritious.

Just mean there are a lot of silly people in the world who cant make up their own mind.

That's such a great analogy.

this guy will end up with over a million views on this game review. Not everyone will even agree with him.

I just like to make fun of the obvious fanboi trolling that constantly like to try and take shots at him or anyone else that are popular on youtube.

Let's see YOUR youtube review with actual viewer numbers.

Im a grown adult and learnt long ago things with the biggest numbers arent the best. Everyone goes to Paris every year to see the Eiffel Tower yet it is the least interesting thing in the city, while the best things are empty cos everyone follows the sheep. Likewise just because every person on the planet seems to have their own live feeds on twitch or channel on youtube doesn't mean all of them are worth your time. Why would I bother adding my stuff to an already overpopulate online culture? I would rather spend my time playing the game and making up my own opinion and talk between my friends, my concerns or likes. I dont need someone else telling me what they thought, I make up my own mind.

Good job..

Still waiting for somebody to point us to the good reviews.

10k more just the last 20 minutes. 310k.

Jeremy

Etchesketch wrote: »

Don't get caught up on his name.

Point to where he is wrong.

Nowhere in that video did I outright disagree with him. In fact, for the most part, I found it EXACTLY to be my impression so far.

Fans of the game bought early access already. ZoS doesn't have to work very hard to get most of us to subscribe. Its the people that join now and tomorrow and the next day that will decide if this game survives.

It's the level 20 and below content/problems that will be the deciding factor.

The no grouping issue,
the bot issue,

Those are the killers.

Most of the things he was right about can be said generally of MMORPGs though.

Every recent MMO I have played has been a largely single-player game when it comes to questing. A lot of them don't even allow you to group period for them. That's just the trend these days.

And every MMO has bots. Especially near after launch before the developers get a handle on them.

I'm not excusing these faults. They are serious issues I would like them to address. But they shouldn't come across as anything new to any MMO reviewer.

Jake71887

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

hate to see how you would have coped playing a real game like EQ or DAoC, there are far too many quick travel options in this game as it is.

I don't have a problem with travelling... Never said I did, I said a lot of people have problems with this and the cost of the horse. I also have a horse so the point is moot for me, doesn't mean that the argument was any less valid just because it doesn't personally affect me though.

byghostlightrwb17_ESO

...................
@Etchesketch Good job..

Still waiting for somebody to point us to the good reviews.

10k more just the last 20 minutes. 310k.
.................

and Gangnam Style has like like one trillion-billion-zillion hits, doesnt mean its good, nor does it advance the history of music, to say nothing of Justin Bieber. So by all means just keep posting the numbers as some sort of proof of *shrugs* (actually i have no idea what you are trying to prove). All that counting numbers on youtube prove is how much of the world are nothing but sheep, docile and useless unless in a flock.

make up your own mind... there is a novel idea, who needs to have an external person confirming your doubts. Dont want to play, fine, Dont want to pay find but at least come to that conclusion yourself.

Rotherhans

Jake71887 wrote: »

Before you know it, you've wasted 20 minutes, and most of it pointlessly walking.

And I'll take that since you didn't address the cyrodiil issue, that you have either not participated, or didn't have a rebuttal.. because walking is by far the most noticeable there.

What the heck is this "walking a few minutes BS?!? Are you playing the game? You know you can sprint, right?

The so called "Cryodil Walking Issue" is part of the strategic plan.
It´s supposed to be the actual punishment for getting killed and even creates opportunities for ambushes by small well organized enemy faction squads.
Gameplay GW2 was constantly advertising too for their RvR, which their compared to Cryodil ridiculously small maps soundly defeat.

As for my take on the "review", it´s just another Joe-Screamathon.
As subjective as it was over the top.

Of course he´s right with all the problems and I agree wholeheartedly with his criticisms.
I myself waited 2 weeks since early access to actually start my sub because of the shameful beta-state this game has been in and to a lesser extent still is.

I´m giving the game now 90 days to woo me back and some disgruntled UTub (or forum) loudmouths won´t change that timetable one bit.

knightblaster

Every MMO has some bots, but having played virtually every major AAA MMO launch in the past 8 years or so, I can safely say that the amount of bots in this game is far and away the worst I have ever seen. It's because of the design. The public dungeon bosses are set up very easy to bot. Some overland areas are very easy to bot. I have seen bots every single day for the past week -- that has never, ever, happened to me in a launch period AAA MMO. It's an unprecedented level of bots.

Jeremy

[

Jake71887 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

That is correct. I have only been there twice and am not comfortable commenting about it.

I did notice the map was vast - so I believe it was intended to take large amounts of time to traverse. This was probably done to prevent gank parties from zipping around slaughtering people inside a smaller map. But that is just a guess.

In any case, the distance between way shrines is very reasonable while questing. If walking a few minutes to reach a shrine so you can instantly teleport back to town is too much of a hassle then I believe we have reached critical mass.

I suppose games must offer instant teleports to where ever you want to go now else players like Angry Joe are going to feel forced to walk the blank spans of nothingness or what ever ridiculous description it was he used

This is one subject I don't think we are going to find agreement on. Because I really don't have a problem with walking around on a game designed to be an adventure/exploration game.

No one was asking for instant teleports... The entire issue was that horses are unnecessarily expensive for the amount of walking involved in playing(As AngryJoe said: especially in PVP). No one wants to spend half their play-time walking, and with the price of horses, many people find themselves doing just that.

I have a horse but rarely use it. I prefer to walk most of the time to be honest with you. That way I can more easily collect materials from the environment as I go.

So why you and Angry Joe seem to feel a horse is so necessary to avoid these horrible walking times that supposedly exists while questing is something I just can't relate to.

It's really not a big deal to walk on this game while you are doing your quests. You say you don't want instant teleporting, but that really is the next logical step because there are already instant teleports spots scattered all over the place. If that's not good enough, then instant teleporting to where ever you want to go no matter where you are is the only thing I could imagine would be.

Etchesketch

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

...................
@Etchesketch Good job..

Still waiting for somebody to point us to the good reviews.

10k more just the last 20 minutes. 310k.
.................

and Gangnam Style has like like one trillion-billion-zillion hits, doesnt mean its good, nor does it advance the history of music, to say nothing of Justin Bieber. So by all means just keep posting the numbers as some sort of proof of *shrugs* (actually i have no idea what you are trying to prove). All that counting numbers on youtube prove is how much of the world are nothing but sheep, docile and useless unless in a flock.

make up your own mind... there is a novel idea, who needs to have an external person confirming your doubts. Dont want to play, fine, Dont want to pay find but at least come to that conclusion yourself.

just silly.

I make up my own mind. I've played many, many mmos. This one is average at best and ground poundingly broken at worst.

I support Bethesda. I want the game to succeed and the way to do that isn't to hide and pretend the game is where it should be. It's not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPMhanzEXb8

p.s. anyone know how to make vid links like this smaller/resized in the post?

Leesha

It will never cease to amaze me how many people act like sheep when it comes to the video game industry. This "Angry Joe" person is completely irrelevant and his opinion only matters to the people who choose to mindlessly follow what someone else says. Form your own opinions, it's ok. You don't need some loud mouth insecure guy to validate them for you.

If he really wants to impress anyone with his opinions, he should shut his mouth and make a successful mmo.

Greydog

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

nope stand by my Fox quip I quite enjoy turning it on and see people invent news, not sure what is sadder is the people who invent it or the people who believe it.

Just because other outlets don't report it doesn't make it a lie. I guess you and I will not be discussing politics any time soon

On to the topic at hand because this is an area where we may be partially in agreement.

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Likewise Angry Joe speaks to this angry, lame and hyperbole generation or people. Everyone who thinks they are experts in every field, everyone who thinks everything is crap. and they are somehow better than everyone else who have grounded expectations for things. I dont think ESO is perfect but the things it does right are better than the things it doesnt.

All commentators try to speak to their respective audiences in a manner that is often provocative. That gets people to perk up and listen. Those that like it will come back, those that don't wont. Those that have an open mind will have actually heard what was said.

There is an old saying "everyone in life will hurt you at some point. The trick is to find someone worth suffering for" ..you may miss that someone if you're not paying attention.

Where we more closely agree is that last part. ESO does many things right but those areas where they tripped over themselves are just so glaring that it overshadows the good.

Greydog

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Jake71887 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

But why is it such an issue for him to just walk until he can afford a horse?

There is literally a way point like every few inches on the map. Is that how lazy this new generation of gamers have really become, that they can't be bothered to walk for a few minutes to complete a quest?

I like convenience too. But I draw the line at expecting games to pick me up and carry me around to finish my quests. Especially on what is suppose to be an adventure game.

The wayshrines don't really cut down on your walk time that much, unless you're willing to pay the fee, instead of walking to a shrine to tele to the next. And in Cyrodiil it is horrendous having to walk... Even just from one keep to another takes forever.

hate to see how you would have coped playing a real game like EQ or DAoC, there are far too many quick travel options in this game as it is.

Back then no one knew better. That's like saying 18th century people were bummed because they knew what we in the 21st have

Singular

Jake71887 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

That is correct. I have only been there twice and am not comfortable commenting about it.

I did notice the map was vast - so I believe it was intended to take large amounts of time to traverse. This was probably done to prevent gank parties from zipping around slaughtering people inside a smaller map. But that is just a guess.

In any case, the distance between way shrines is very reasonable while questing. If walking a few minutes to reach a shrine so you can instantly teleport back to town is too much of a hassle then I believe we have reached critical mass.

I suppose games must offer instant teleports to where ever you want to go now else players like Angry Joe are going to feel forced to walk the blank spans of nothingness or what ever ridiculous description it was he used

This is one subject I don't think we are going to find agreement on. Because I really don't have a problem with walking around on a game designed to be an adventure/exploration game.

No one was asking for instant teleports... The entire issue was that horses are unnecessarily expensive for the amount of walking involved in playing(As AngryJoe said: especially in PVP). No one wants to spend half their play-time walking, and with the price of horses, many people find themselves doing just that.

Horses really aren't that fast for the first 20 days of ownership.

Anyways: Angry Joe is right about botting and the group function. Botting needs to stop, grouping needs to be made better. It's basically just frustrating to use it right now.

He's also right about pvp: it's visually stunning.