Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

Alandauron

@Wreaken, You're funny. I would "LOL" all your posts at this point but you'd probably take that as a compliment.

Templar Charge:

• Can be blocked
• Can be CC broke giving CC immunity afterwards

NightBlade Terror:

• Can be CC broke giving CC immunity afterwards
• Currently bugged like the majority of NB skills(being addressed in other threads such as this one)

Those 2 are CC, not root, so that leaves us with Sorceror Encase:

• Cannot be blocked(just like Talons)
• No immunity granted(just like Talons)
• Takes more effort to use accurately(albeit not the hardest but requires an extra click of the mouse after clicking on the ability or using hotkey/bind)
• Doesn't do any damage against targets unless Shattering morphed(even then not as much damage)
• Has no synergy
• And yet we still want to see the immunity added for this being in the "Root/Immobilize" category

Adding a 7 SECOND IMMUNITY AFTER DODGE ROLL FOR ROOT/IMMOBILIZE ABILITIES would not affect other abilities in PvP or PvE and would not have any affect whatsoever on game balance on PvE side. What it would do is bring the Root/Immobilize in balance with CC.

All the other crap you're spouting really has nothing to do with Talons and I fail to see any form of relevance toward the discussion going on in here. Talons would still be a better skill than all the ones you mentioned even with the 7 second immunity after dodge roll.

If you're meaning that whiners will take to whining about those others listed, I think they will continue to whine about Broken Talons personally. But if the devs simply add the Root Immunity then my crusade will end and I will take to defending Talons against any form of nerf.

I want to see Talons remain effective in PvP, I just want proper counterplay.

Alandauron

Wreaken wrote: »

1. Increase the cost of all above skills to make it less spammable.
2. Make it so that dodge rolling out of an immobilize grants CC immunity for a short duration, just like the CC break system currently does.
3. Reduce the radius of all the above skills to 5 meters so that a dodge roll takes you out of it unless the player moves in your direction.

1. This would be the worst thing you could do. I want to see no increase in cost to Dark Talons or other abilities, the cost has been well balanced. Dark Talons is a great skill for DKs so they can control combat to some extent, it just needs some fine tuning.
2. Yup
3. No, that was added as a counter suggestion in case the devs don't want to implement a Root/Immobilize Immunity.

@NordJitsu made that first post with "possible fixes" for the Dark Talons skill. He did not want ALL of those suggestions to be implemented, just something to toss around in the forums and brainstorm over.

If the devs add the immunity that would fix the majority of the Root/Immobilize issues.

Alandauron

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Alandauron wrote: »

So stating that you can only cast it 3-4 times is either a blatant lie

I actually play the damn class, thank you very much. As a VR8 player, I can cast this ability exactly 3 times before I deplete my magicka, or 4 if I have a decent magicka food buff. This is not a lie, this is me having eyeballs and watching how the use of Burning Talons interacts with my magicka pool. I'm on the live server, by the way, where this actually matters.

@beravinprb19_ESO‌, The PTS is implementing changes that they plan to make. The future of the game.

So I would argue that the PTS is where it matters for the future of the game, which is what this discussion is all about.

P.S. That's a really hard name to remember.

NordJitsu

And this is when I can do nothing but sit back and laugh. @Wreaken‌ I hope for your benefit that you come back to this thread a few days later when you've settled down. Hopefully by that point you'll be done trying to win any arguments. You'll see that nothing you've written has anything remotely to do with the thread or any of its accompanying posts. You'll see that the points you try to make are misinformed and have been well explained to you multiple times.


You'll re-read all this and say, "Wow, I must have been really really drunk."

I hope, for your sake, that these things happen. Because at this point, only YOU can help yourself.

beravinprb19_ESO

Alandauron wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Alandauron wrote: »

So stating that you can only cast it 3-4 times is either a blatant lie

I actually play the damn class, thank you very much. As a VR8 player, I can cast this ability exactly 3 times before I deplete my magicka, or 4 if I have a decent magicka food buff. This is not a lie, this is me having eyeballs and watching how the use of Burning Talons interacts with my magicka pool. I'm on the live server, by the way, where this actually matters.

@beravinprb19_ESO‌, The PTS is implementing changes that they plan to make. The future of the game.

So I would argue that the PTS is where it matters for the future of the game, which is what this discussion is all about.

P.S. That's a really hard name to remember.

I apologize for the name. It is meant to be "Beravin", but something went wrong during account creation and I'm stuck with a name that could easily be confused with a spam bot. Many forum accounts have this problem, and support has not been very helpful.

Now, with that said... PTS changes are not set in stone, and they are often changed a number of times before they are released. As such, the changes mean absolutely nothing UNLESS they are actually implemented, in which case it will be on the live server.

Alandauron

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

At any rate... Changes on the PTS are not set in stone, and all changes are subject to alterations. That, and most players will be playing on the live server, and not on the PTS. By all rights, changes on the PTS mean nothing to most players until they are actually implemented.

Which is exactly why I'm saying something now rather than letting it hit the live and having more people go completely crazy with the additional buff to an already broken skill.

Anyway, I don't even mind the lower cost taking effect, so long as there is that brief immunity.

beravinprb19_ESO

Alandauron wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

At any rate... Changes on the PTS are not set in stone, and all changes are subject to alterations. That, and most players will be playing on the live server, and not on the PTS. By all rights, changes on the PTS mean nothing to most players until they are actually implemented.

Which is exactly why I'm saying something now rather than letting it hit the live and having more people go completely crazy with the additional buff to an already broken skill.

Anyway, I don't even mind the lower cost taking effect, so long as there is that brief immunity.

Sorry, I was editing my post when you quoted me. I'm basically saying PTS changes don't mean anything because we can never be certain that the changes are actually going to happen. At any rate, I've said my piece, and now I'm going to go and dabble in some other threads. That said, I appreciate that you actually reason, and don't simply insult me in any way you can. If there was a +1 respect button around here somewhere, I'd click it.

Alandauron

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Sorry, I was editing my post when you quoted me. I'm basically saying PTS changes don't mean anything because we can never be certain that the changes are actually going to happen. At any rate, I've said my piece, and now I'm going to go and dabble in some other threads. That said, I appreciate that you actually reason, and don't simply insult me in any way you can. If there was a +1 respect button around here somewhere, I'd click it.

We only resort to insults when someone is trolling or not making any sense . Thank you for your feedback, it's always nice to receive some more input.

Catches_the_Sun

NordJitsu wrote: »

Its time to talk about Dark Talons. This skill is without a doubt the most broken ability in the game. It is, perhaps, the most broken ability in the history of MMOs.

What is Dark Talons? Well its a smart AoE immobilize with damage over time and a powerful synergy. It can lock down a massive group of enemy player, damage them, and allow team mates to destroy them even more. The amount of AoE synergies that work with this are astounding.

It cannot be blocked. It cannot be CC broken. It cannot be prevented with immunity like Immovable.

If you dodge roll out of it (the only way to escape immobilize) then you can be instantly placed back into it. Why? Because the ability has a range (circular, so radius) of 8 meters and is auto/smart snare.

Dodge roll doesn't take you 8 meters. So what's a good DK to do? If anyone dodge rolls out of Dark Talons, he just presses the ability again. Does he have to aim? Nope. Is there any way for the player to prevent it? Nope. Does the first dodge roll give him immunity to a second application? Nope.

So why is this different than other CC? "Encase" from the Sorcs Dark Magick tree is a good immobilize too right? Well the difference is that Encase is easy to avoid. If you get Encased, you can dodge roll to the left, right, or through the player. In order to reapply, they would have to quickly whip around and aim at you. Not so with Dark Talons. Just press a button, no player skill (or thinking beyond Pavlovian dog reflexes) is needed. You can use this to instantly blow through a players stamina, because two dodge rolls is going to leave them practically unable to block or CC break.

This one ability is making DKs the best Tanks, the best DPS, and the best overall class to have in group PvP.

I know some very high level DKs who have taken to calling this ability "Broken Talons." I stole the title from @Obscure‌ by the way.

Basically, right now, if you're playing a DK and not using Broken Talons, you're doing it wrong.

Everyone who knows there stuff and was in the closed Beta told ZOS about this ability and its imbalance repeatedly. Usually it was said with heavy sarcasm and rolling eyes. It was a bit of a joke.

We thought, "hey, they're smart. They've built a great CC system because they understand how important it is to get CC right. There's no way they're going to let this one slide."

We assumed the ability would be reworked prior to launch because how could it not be? We gave ZOS the benefit of the doubt because it seemed so obvious.

Now the game is out and it seems that they've taken all the lessons they learned and applied to the entire CC system and thrown them out the window with regards to one ability. This ability cannot be blocked, prevented, countered, ect. The only thing you can do is not be near them.

For me, as a sorc, that's not that bad actually. I can Bolt Escape away and THEN dodge roll, which takes me past 8 meters. But if you're a NB or a Temp? Good luck. You're perma locked if these guys ever get near you.

So how do you fix it?

Well there's several options and a mix would probably be best.

1. Increase the cost of Dark Talons to make it less spammable.
2. Make it so that dodge rolling out of an immobilize grants CC immunity for a short duration, just like the CC break system currently does.
3. Reduce the radius of Dark Talons so that a dodge roll takes you out of it unless the DK moves in your direction.

Lets get it done ZOS. Dragon Knights Online isn't going to be a fun game for your other 3 classes.

Well written post & I agree with everything you've said here. They addressed Vampires today, which was a great step forward. After they address Broken Talons, the other balancing changes will be minor in comparison.

TheBull

I like how they spam knock my NB out of stealth.

Quaesivi

What is most irritating throughout all this post is blaming the Dark Talons for all the problems. Seriously, even when devs say Talons are bugged due to number of people hit (which is not really relevant) AND they are looking at the all immobilization effects, you go "Woo they are nerfing Talons!". Honestly, in PvP, I have not encountered more than twice that I got killed just because of "Talon spamming" and that is because there were MULTIPLE DKs running after us, not a single one, and the other time we got shot down by a single vamp/DK, well, we were inside one of the walls, which has a smaller radius than Talons, so it was expected. And all your theorycrafting is based on how powerful Talons could be, if they go all magicka/regen/light armor/racial effects/etc. Seriously? I'm a Heavy Armor wearing DK and NOT magicka specced, if I use Talons more than twice, I'm dead meat because I can't get out or heal myself, and many DKs I met were honestly too lazy or too broke to change Light Armor just before every PvP, and frankly its boring. If you just go around nerfing things just because how powerful they can be with all the items/specs/racial bonuses and such, then you would end up trying to nerf all the builds, I can seriously make you a full stamina build that can take down a vamp/DK (yes I tested, with a bow, its immensely fun, and just to take a swing, Flurry actually also gets easy kills despite what people say). Just go and enjoy the damn game instead of worrying over what is the best build you got and how you can shot down other builds that could defeat you just so you can be the best, this is not Pokemon.

SexyVette07

Baphomet wrote: »

Dodge-roll breaking roots should give 1 sec immunity, bolt escape shouldn't allow you to move when rooted = fixed.

How is an ability called "bolt escape" not supposed to actually escape? 0.o

Its a teleport, its not illogical that it would remove CC, or even take the CC with you afterwards.

If balance needs to be done, do it through balancing the cost of the spell, not by doing *** and illogical things.

Kraun

Talons is utterly broken in pvp as is standard, anyone claiming otherwise is a DK abusing and loving the above mentioned skills or is just ignorant.

Crescent

SexyVette07 wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

Dodge-roll breaking roots should give 1 sec immunity, bolt escape shouldn't allow you to move when rooted = fixed.

How is an ability called "bolt escape" not supposed to actually escape? 0.o

Its a teleport, its not illogical that it would remove CC, or even take the CC with you afterwards.

If balance needs to be done, do it through balancing the cost of the spell, not by doing *** and illogical things.

The cost is fine. What is not is the stacking of mana regen and light armor passives reducing the cost so much.

Leather wearing sorcs cannot spam this skill and they should not get punished because light armor caster sorcs can spam it. I hate blanket nerfs. Melee leather sorcs are already a borderline build that's barely staying viable.

Maverick827

Kraun wrote: »

Talons is utterly broken in pvp as is standard, anyone claiming otherwise is a DK abusing and loving the above mentioned skills or is just ignorant.

Talons is fine in PvP as is Standard, anyone claiming otherwise needs to l2p or is just ignorant.

How about we stick to big boy arguments, though?

Alandauron

Aenthel wrote: »

What is most irritating throughout all this post is blaming the Dark Talons for all the problems. Seriously, even when devs say Talons are bugged due to number of people hit (which is not really relevant) AND they are looking at the all immobilization effects, you go "Woo they are nerfing Talons!". Honestly, in PvP, I have not encountered more than twice that I got killed just because of "Talon spamming" and that is because there were MULTIPLE DKs running after us, not a single one, and the other time we got shot down by a single vamp/DK, well, we were inside one of the walls, which has a smaller radius than Talons, so it was expected. And all your theorycrafting is based on how powerful Talons could be, if they go all magicka/regen/light armor/racial effects/etc. Seriously? I'm a Heavy Armor wearing DK and NOT magicka specced, if I use Talons more than twice, I'm dead meat because I can't get out or heal myself, and many DKs I met were honestly too lazy or too broke to change Light Armor just before every PvP, and frankly its boring. If you just go around nerfing things just because how powerful they can be with all the items/specs/racial bonuses and such, then you would end up trying to nerf all the builds, I can seriously make you a full stamina build that can take down a vamp/DK (yes I tested, with a bow, its immensely fun, and just to take a swing, Flurry actually also gets easy kills despite what people say). Just go and enjoy the damn game instead of worrying over what is the best build you got and how you can shot down other builds that could defeat you just so you can be the best, this is not Pokemon.

@Aenthel, You obviously did not read past the title of the thread. Not wasting time re-explaining this. Go back and read before jumping into a conversation.

Alandauron

Maverick827 wrote: »

Talons will be fine in PvP after a 7 second immunity is added Standard is fine.

Fixed for you.

The learn 2 play argument is tired and does not apply to those you are talking to buddy. But keep trolling and repeating the same tired thing, shows loads about your level of intelligence.

Maverick827

Alandauron wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Talons will be fine in PvP after a 7 second immunity is added Standard is fine.

Fixed for you.

The learn 2 play argument is tired and does not apply to those you are talking to buddy. But keep trolling and repeating the same tired thing, shows loads about your level of intelligence.

Obviously the point of my post went over your head. I'll explain it more clearly for you.

I used the term "l2p"because it is an unproductive, dismissive non-argument, and I was using that as a statement to show how the post I quoted was similarly unproductive, dismissive non-argument.

Perhaps you should rein in those insults to other people's intelligence when you were fooled so easily by a little word play.

Alandauron

Maverick827 wrote: »

Obviously the point of my post went over your head. I'll explain it more clearly for you.

I used the term "l2p"because it is an unproductive, dismissive non-argument, and I was using that as a statement to show how the post I quoted was similarly unproductive, dismissive non-argument.

Perhaps you should rein in those insults to other people's intelligence when you were fooled so easily by a little word play.

LOL. You're a funny guy.

Overexplaining a bad argument for the sake of saving face. You have used the L2P several times in this thread, so what you're saying is that your ENTIRE argument is that you are "unproductive, dismissive non-argument".

I think you are jumping WAY over your own head here. Take your tired excuses somewhere where people are silly enough to fall for them.

Also try contributing to the thread instead of just trolling. Oh, and L2P is NOT contributing, in case you were unclear about that, didn't want to go over your head ya know .

bg22

Maverick827 wrote: »

Alandauron wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Talons will be fine in PvP after a 7 second immunity is added Standard is fine.

Fixed for you.

The learn 2 play argument is tired and does not apply to those you are talking to buddy. But keep trolling and repeating the same tired thing, shows loads about your level of intelligence.

Obviously the point of my post went over your head. I'll explain it more clearly for you.

I used the term "l2p"because it is an unproductive, dismissive non-argument, and I was using that as a statement to show how the post I quoted was similarly unproductive, dismissive non-argument.

Perhaps you should rein in those insults to other people's intelligence when you were fooled so easily by a little word play.

Actually, the guy you originally quoted was just stating the obvious. On the other hand, everything you've stated is completely useless to both the pro and con side of this argument.

This isn't a issue of "l2p", and anyone that "kh2p" will agree that broken-talons is at the moment, the most ridiculously over powered ability in the game.

In fact, it's not even a argument... It's simply the only type of CC that doesn't grant a period of CC immunity. Just by knowing that, any one with half a brain can realize "wtf, that doesn't even make sense" and see that it needs fixed.

Despite having a few other ridiculously overpowered abilities compared to other classes, a DK could literally be successful in PvP with just broken-talons on their skill bar.

I would explain the method, (which the above average PvP'er should have already figured out) but I wouldn't want you and the masses of average/below average players currently running DK to hop off the forum and exploit the broken ability even further/more easily.

Regardless, as mentioned before, it's publicly been noted by the developers that the ability is on the "fix" list. So, enjoy "bein good" while you can... Soon enough you'll need talent like the rest of the classes (for the most part).

Maverick827

Alandauron wrote: »

You have used the L2P several times in this thread

Point them out.

I'll wait.

Alandauron

Maverick827 wrote: »

Point them out.

I'll wait.

You are correct, mistook you for another that has been doing nothing except trolling the thread. You have provided some decent discussion points, BUT you have also been trolling the thread quite a bit with your "fixed for you" crap as well as some other non-productive and useless posts.

Apologies for mistaking you for someone else using that L2P crap, but you haven't been a whole lot better tbh. I try to respond to people based off what they contribute to the thread(contribute trolls, get responded to with a troll; contribute something productive, be responded to productively)

If you don't have something productive to say then just stay out, trolling is responded to by more trolling. This thread has been otherwise productive and it has been awhile since I saw a touchy subject like this go this many pages without turning into a raging troll fest.

Honestly though, I dare say the point has been made and the devs are looking into fixing this issue.

warmheart

I am just wondering what CC means?

Alandauron

warmheart wrote: »

I am just wondering what CC means?

CC stands for crowd control. Basically in this context it is meaning a spell or ability that stuns or disorients another player to help control the field.

CCs are:
-stuns
-ability that removes control from player for x amount of time
-player cannot move, cast, attack
-can be broke out of using left mouse button + right mouse button
-gets brief immunity after break
-can be blocked

EDIT: What we are trying to discuss in this thread is why Immobilize/Roots should have a short immunity after dodge rolling out just like CC break grants a short immunity.

Immobilize/Roots are:
-lockdowns
-ability that locks player in place for x amount of time
-player cannot move but CAN attack and cast spells
-player cannot turn around, is fixed in direction they were rooted
-can be broke out of using dodge roll
-gets no immunity after break
-cannot be blocked

Xsorus

Obscure wrote: »

@Wreaken‌
My brain hurts at the colossal idiocy of what you're saying.

There is a radius to Dark Talons, that's literally how the skill works, it's on the tool tip as exactly that: 8m radius.

Dodge all you'd like, rolls take you roughly 5m. Now I'm no mathematics professor but I'm pretty sure 8 is larger than 5. Maybe fact check me on that one and get back to me.

And to finish off absolutely no one is talking about breaking soft CC's except for you literally stating:

Wreaken wrote: »

Not sure if this was mentioned in here, but you can break out of Dark Talons, just like every other CC ability.......

So either your trolling or are legitimatly out of your f***ing mind. I can forgive insanity, that's not your fault, but trolling? I deal with them with flames, they're vulnerable to them.

Well you're right about 1 thing in that bolded part...you're not Mathematics professor...

Unless i'm standing within 3 Meters of the DK, i can dodge roll out of the of the root.

Also why take Cinderstorm? Cinderstorm is better for 1v1 fights, a Root is not going to help me magically more unless i'm just watching to screw with a Vampire, a 30% miss rate on the other hand is incredibly useful. The Reason DK's tend to use Talons more in groups fight vs cinderstorm is for the fact its got a very nasty Synergy Attached to Talons.

NordJitsu

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Wreaken‌
My brain hurts at the colossal idiocy of what you're saying.

There is a radius to Dark Talons, that's literally how the skill works, it's on the tool tip as exactly that: 8m radius.

Dodge all you'd like, rolls take you roughly 5m. Now I'm no mathematics professor but I'm pretty sure 8 is larger than 5. Maybe fact check me on that one and get back to me.

And to finish off absolutely no one is talking about breaking soft CC's except for you literally stating:

Wreaken wrote: »

Not sure if this was mentioned in here, but you can break out of Dark Talons, just like every other CC ability.......

So either your trolling or are legitimatly out of your f***ing mind. I can forgive insanity, that's not your fault, but trolling? I deal with them with flames, they're vulnerable to them.

Well you're right about 1 thing in that bolded part...you're not Mathematics professor...

Unless i'm standing within 3 Meters of the DK, i can dodge roll out of the of the root.

Because walking isn't a thing?

Xsorus

NordJitsu wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Wreaken‌
My brain hurts at the colossal idiocy of what you're saying.

There is a radius to Dark Talons, that's literally how the skill works, it's on the tool tip as exactly that: 8m radius.

Dodge all you'd like, rolls take you roughly 5m. Now I'm no mathematics professor but I'm pretty sure 8 is larger than 5. Maybe fact check me on that one and get back to me.

And to finish off absolutely no one is talking about breaking soft CC's except for you literally stating:

Wreaken wrote: »

Not sure if this was mentioned in here, but you can break out of Dark Talons, just like every other CC ability.......

So either your trolling or are legitimatly out of your f***ing mind. I can forgive insanity, that's not your fault, but trolling? I deal with them with flames, they're vulnerable to them.

Well you're right about 1 thing in that bolded part...you're not Mathematics professor...

Unless i'm standing within 3 Meters of the DK, i can dodge roll out of the of the root.

Because walking isn't a thing?

Are we talking 1v1 or 1v2?

Cause i gotta tell ya, a DK probably isn't going keep blowing his mana to root ya in place in a 1v1, unless you happen to be a vampire trying to mist away.

In a 1v2..Or hell Say a group near a DK, who's he going to root after they dodge roll out of his DT and move in different directions..He can follow someone... and hope he can catch them (unless its a Sorc, who'll just teleport away)

Getting out of DK root isn't hard... it never is..

Getting out of DK root while blocking and being beat on by multiple people is hard.

That's simply because my stamina is instantly drained by being beat on and blocking.

Aphilas

NordJitsu wrote: »

The vamp thing is pretty funny btw. Just a day or two before it was fixed, @Obscure‌ and I figured out a really really nasty way to stop it. Dark Talons + Negate Magic + Standard of Might = Melted Vampires.

The Talons would root them and do fire damage. Mist Form wouldn't give immunity. The Negate Magic would shut off their Bats plus any other spells they were using (as well as keeping sorcs from bolting out of the Talons.) Then his Standard would finish them off with all that fire damage.

So it took you a month to figure out such a basic thing. You're quite not the light beacon of knowledge you assume/pretend to be.

But please, do go on. Talons is an issue, nerf it. AoE is an issue? Nerf it. Then nerf something, and something else until you reach the phase where you need to nerf *** abilities because it became OP due to nerfing everything around it.
Instead of addressing the actual issue of cost reduction gear/talents stacking.

This skill is problematic against PvE content as well. Have you seen Attorneyatlawals video where he solo's a 4 person VR12 delve and world boss in Craglorn? Would not have been possible without his spammable Talons locking down all the adds and ticking for 600 damage a second.

Since I've seen you suggesting to multiple people already to read entire thread, I'd like to drop same suggestion at you. Before you use "Did you see that DK soloing 4 man v12 content video - it's because of Talons!" again - do read that thread (which is btw only 2-3 pages long). Specially the part where creator of that video explains in details how every class in the game can solo it if they chose to build accordingly.

Brizz

@NordJitsu - Asking to balance this game for pvp seems like it brings every troll out from under their bridge to attack you. They want their class to stay overpowered because they are having fun killing people with 2 buttons, and claim that you only want to "water down" ESO. They will ruin this game for the masses and ZOS doesn't seem to care, so I wont care to give them my subscription.

Maverick827

Brizz wrote: »

@NordJitsu - Asking to balance this game for pvp seems like it brings every troll out from under their bridge to attack you. They want their class to stay overpowered because they are having fun killing people with 2 buttons, and claim that you only want to "water down" ESO. They will ruin this game for the masses and ZOS doesn't seem to care, so I wont care to give them my subscription.

"The masses" are PvE players, and PvP players are the ones ruining the game for them. More people will quit over PvP nerfs affecting PvE than PvP nerfs affecting PvP.