Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

Alandauron

Maverick827 wrote: »

"The masses" are PvE players, and PvP players are the ones ruining the game for them. More people will quit over PvP nerfs affecting PvE than PvP nerfs affecting PvP.

Once again for clarity.

A 7 second immunity after dodge rolling will have absolutely no effect on PvE due to the fact the the AI does not dodge roll. Even if the AI did dodge roll, making the immunity only work for players would be the simple fix for that.

So no one will quit over this type of change due to it "affecting PvE". It just simply does not affect PvE, only time will tell how ZOS decides to fix this issue though, and it does need to be fixed.

Alandauron

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Are we talking 1v1 or 1v2?

Cause i gotta tell ya, a DK probably isn't going keep blowing his mana to root ya in place in a 1v1, unless you happen to be a vampire trying to mist away.

That really depends on their build. But yes a strategy of DKs was to "blow their magick" using talons in order to utterly destroy your stamina.(which didn't really blow their magick nearly as quick as it destroyed their opponent's stamina)

Many of them use this and it has been overly effective. If you don't spot them before their charge then you will have to burn 2 dodge rolls in order to get out of their root spam. That's 50% of your stamina if you do nothing else(33% with medium traits). So then a couple of stamina based skills used by the DK and if you're trying to maintain a block you're completely out of stamina.

Anyway, this is sad really, watching people defend this ability when there is clearly no other skill that even comes close to it's effectiveness. If you've been following the thread so far, have actually read everything put in, and you still aren't convinced then there's really no helping you. Most concerned about getting this fixed are satisfied now that ZOS is aware of the issue and working on a fix.

Maverick827

If we had any communication with ZOS at all then I'd be fine with adding an immunity, because then they would then exist to say "yes, that is a fine solution and that is all we will be doing to fix this issue" and everyone would be happy.

But with their silence, right now all we have is this general, undefined concept of "nerf," which I will argue against until the planets align and ZOS deigns to communicate with us about specifics. I play* a 1H/Shield DK in PvE. With the last Reddit AMA, there are three mentions of nerfing this style into the ground for interactions that have nothing to do with the DK class itself (vampire, ultimate reduction, skill cost reduction, etc.), so I'm not sorry for being resistant to even more nerfs.

*Played. I've since re-rolled due to the impending over-nerfing of the class.

Thevenin

Maverick827 wrote: »

"The masses" are PvE players, and PvP players are the ones ruining the game for them. More people will quit over PvP nerfs affecting PvE than PvP nerfs affecting PvP.

And where does your vast knowledge come from ?
Most players right now are questing to get their levels up, and they're doing it in PvE because PvP gives ridiculously low amounts of XP and every one below VR5 gets instantly destroyed by any VR10 running a fotm build (vampires, DK s&b, sorc).

PvE endgame at the moment is simply non-existant. There are 3 veteran dungeons, which can be run at VR6, aren't difficult and are cleaned by most pick-up groups with a decent setup on the first run. There is little to no gear progression, the main gimmicky mechanism being to get the right random crafting mats in your daily mail - or buy them from a duper.
Craglorn is in the pipeline, but it looks more on the Warhammer Online side of PvE content quantity than on the WoW/Rift/LoTRO side. If ESO doesn't retain players with its RvR - and I think there is quite a huge potential playerbase with very little competition - I fear it will sink to the SWTOR depths of milking the f2p cow of people who want to enjoy the license / content as a solo game.

Maverick827

A vast majority of players are still leveling up, playing PvE.

And I personally wouldn't hate if the game went the way of SWTOR (which became more popular than ever after going F2P). At least then I'd be able to fix the inventory/repair cost/etc. problems this game has with a few dollars.

Hail_Sithis

I am really getting sick of you *** people.

Stop bitching and learn to adapt.

"I lost twice in a row in rock paper scissors, Rock is so overpowered."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAlTOfl9F2w

Obscure

The Knonk mentioned Talons is bugged hitting more targets than intended, and that there will be improvements made for immobilize effect counterplay. Both are an inevitability at this point so I genuinely don't really think I need to persistently repost things that were already covered in the previous 12 pages. Go read the thread if you're unclear. Now is the point we wait and see what they do.

Change is coming. You don't like it? Frankly, madam, I don't give a damn.

Hail_Sithis

Obscure wrote: »

Change is coming. You don't like it? Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

Fixed it for you.

NordJitsu

@Aphilas‌

Didn't take us more than 10 secs to figure out a counter for Bat Swarm. We just yelled in TS for everyone to back up and stay at range. Then we used fire damage (Weakness to Elements + Vampire natural Fire Debuff FTW). There were guys in our group solo'ing VR10 Bat-spammers when they were VR1.

I was talking about that specific combo, which Obscure and I only just tried out. It was far from the only way to Counter it.

But again, like we've said with Talons, the fact that something can be countered in some way does not necessarily mean its a balanced skill. You have to take each situation individual and see what the impact is on the meta-game.

Not sure what you're going on about with AoE nerfs. I've actually been calling for AoE buffs since the first PvP test back in September (which was met with the first AoE nerf.) I love zerg busting mechanics.

@Brizz‌

Thank you. Yes, people like to troll. I'm used to it because internet. I do wish ZOS would step up the enforcement though. People not contributing to threads, going off topic, attacking other posters, ect. should be handled by moderators. So far they seem to get away with it every time.

@Maverick827‌

Still waiting on an explanation from you for how adding a Immobilize break immunity to players would affect PvE.

Additionally, I wouldn't even mind if this particular skill was re-balanced for PvE. DKs are the best tanks right now because of this skill (Dragon's Blood helps too.) You can make a competent tank in another class, but play how you want to play goes out the windows when every top trial team will be running all DK tanks.

And yes, like Obscure said, the devs have read this thread. They mentioned in the AuA that Talons is currently bugged (hitting more targets than intended, ie. infinite) and also that they are looking at additional counters for Immobilize/Root.

So I'm satisfied that the issue has been brought to their attention and I don't have much less to discuss until we see their changes in action.

bg22

Hail_Sithis wrote: »

I am really getting sick of you *** people.

Stop bitching and learn to adapt.

"I lost twice in a row in rock paper scissors, Rock is so overpowered."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAlTOfl9F2w

What are you even talking about? You didn't even get the analogy correct.

Maverick827

I've already agreed that adding an immunity would not affect PvE.

Until Zenimax agrees with this particular fix, however, the title of this thread is still an obnoxious meme of adding "broken" to something you think is too strong. Across these forums, hoping that DKs get nerfed to uselessness is all the rage (usualy involving another PvP d00d phrase involving "drinking tears"). Zenimax is caving left and right on PvP issues and their solutions are seriously harming PvE builds. They're still not communicating about anything, let alone how their PvP nerfs are affecting PvE.

So again, you'll have to excuse me for still being defensive. I have a history of just -so-happening to pick the "OP" class in new MMOs that gets irrevocably nerfed because of PvP. A few people got stun locked by a Rogue in WoW in 2004, cried loudly enough, and for the next seven years Rogues weren't allowed to be anything but a one-note, paper-thin DPS class in PvE.

NordJitsu

@Maverick827‌

And again....

That is specifically the fix that ZOS said they are implementing, not a blanket nerf to the skill.

Apparently they have better reading comprehension than 99% of this forums users, who are incapable of reading past the title (if even that.)

Maverick827

If the DK complaints and subsequent nerfs stop at adding a root immunity, I'll eat my hat. ZOS has not earned my trust with regards to fixing issues.

Xsorus

Alandauron wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Are we talking 1v1 or 1v2?

Cause i gotta tell ya, a DK probably isn't going keep blowing his mana to root ya in place in a 1v1, unless you happen to be a vampire trying to mist away.

That really depends on their build. But yes a strategy of DKs was to "blow their magick" using talons in order to utterly destroy your stamina.(which didn't really blow their magick nearly as quick as it destroyed their opponent's stamina)

Many of them use this and it has been overly effective. If you don't spot them before their charge then you will have to burn 2 dodge rolls in order to get out of their root spam. That's 50% of your stamina if you do nothing else(33% with medium traits). So then a couple of stamina based skills used by the DK and if you're trying to maintain a block you're completely out of stamina.

Anyway, this is sad really, watching people defend this ability when there is clearly no other skill that even comes close to it's effectiveness. If you've been following the thread so far, have actually read everything put in, and you still aren't convinced then there's really no helping you. Most concerned about getting this fixed are satisfied now that ZOS is aware of the issue and working on a fix.

In a 1v1..Unless they drop Standard on top of you, you really don't have to dodge roll out of the Dark Talons

Also I don't believe Dodge Roll Takes 33% of your stamina with Medium Armor, I base this on the fact i'm able to dodge roll more then 3 times.

KiroElmarok

These posts are silly.
Its a root.
It can be broken via dodging.
You simply need the stam to break free.

(The OP is right about the cost increase for talons)

Fixed my op.

Sanguisaevum

KiroElmarok wrote: »

This thread is silly.
Its a root.
It can be broken.
You simply need the stam to break free.

You SERIOUSLY need to read the original post VERY CAREFULLY before posting again.

KoooZ

stevenkloy-elderscrollsb16_ESO wrote: »

KiroElmarok wrote: »

This thread is silly.
Its a root.
It can be broken.
You simply need the stam to break free.

You SERIOUSLY need to read the original post VERY CAREFULLY before posting again.

You could just say what it says, it's not long. The DK can recast it.

KiroElmarok

@stevenkloy-elderscrollsb16_ESO
@Koooz
Exactly. And if you have the stamina you can break the root.

Why do I have to read the OP when I was talking to everyone saying its an unbreakable/uncounterable cc... when it is breakable.

Next time I'll @handle or quote people...

NordJitsu

@KiroElmarok‌

You're still misunderstanding what both of them said and what the OP says.

You cannot break it.

You can dodge roll out of it.

Dodge roll is not the same as CC-break because it does not add an immunity.

For Dark Talons in particular, this makes it very easy to reapply a second root. All you need to do is press the button again (without even aiming) and they get re-rooted.

KiroElmarok

@NordJitsu
I understand perfectly what they are saying, and I agree with you that the cost of talons should go up.
But flaming me saying I didn't read a thread that is about my class and what I fight in Cyrodiil... wow. (Not you nord)

Talons is a Root, not a knockdown or a stun. I see sorcs blink away with talons on them and get away all the time. I was simply talking about the other posts in this thread and sort of what was in the op. Is incorrect.

As you literally just stated, you can dodge out of it. This breaks the root at the cost of a large chunk of stamina. I've dodged out of 2-3 talons before with 1.1k stam and a stam pot.
Was it annoying, hell yes. Did it help me kill the other DK... yep. He burned through his magicka and I burst him down with my other abilities.

Sorry I was miss understood. If it did grant immunity... honestly I would not care in the slightest.

NordJitsu

@KiroElmarok‌

Words matter. If you did indeed understand the mechanics, then you simply need to be more careful with your word choice.

CC-break is not the same thing as dodge roll. They are two separate game mechanics. Using the term "break" when you mean "dodge roll out of" was the problem.

It should have some immunity to bring it in line with other CC skills in the game.

Maverick827

By "it," you mean all roots, right?

bg22

Maverick827 wrote: »

By "it," you mean all roots, right?

That goes without saying...

But I'll say it,

Of course.

NordJitsu

bg22 wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

By "it," you mean all roots, right?

That goes without saying...

But I'll say it,

Of course.

@Maverick827‌

^
What he said.

Therium104

Learn to play.

NordJitsu

@Therium104‌

What faction are you?

My favorite thing about the Guesting system is that it enables me to silence ignorant forums warriors. I'd be happy to show you which one of us needs to learn to play.

Therium104

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Therium104‌

What faction are you?

My favorite thing about the Guesting system is that it enables me to silence ignorant forums warriors. I'd be happy to show you which one of us needs to learn to play.

Eh. Learn to play. Stop asking for buffs to your class and nerf to others based on your meaningless opinion and no facts.

Your inability to play the game is evidenced by your post. There is no need. So let me state this again because you seem to as incompetent at reading as you are at this game:

Learn To Play.

Maverick827

So if the real problem is that roots as a whole need immunities, why did you make a thread decring Dark Talons, specifically? If you framed your argument that way from the start, then you would have met far less resistance.

NordJitsu

@Therium104‌

So you're scared. Got it. Your cowardice and ignorance is now on public display.

@Maverick827‌

The whole thread says that. Read it. Dark Talons was singled out because its the biggest problem. Its the only one that doesn't require aiming, so its the easiest to reapply.

bg22

Maverick827 wrote: »

So if the real problem is that roots as a whole need immunities, why did you make a thread decring Dark Talons, specifically? If you framed your argument that way from the start, then you would have met far less resistance.

Because as it stands, DK is the class whom is abusing this mechanic more so than any other.

I thought that was obvious as well.

Guess not.