The change of NB cloak will totally change this class, most fun part gone,

Desiato

nm

Katahdin

This change sucks, is really clunky and pretty much makes cloak on a stamblade not possible any more.

Really glad I maxed out my NB to Grand Overlord, etc a long time ago because this change makes NB, particularly stam NB an easy target and kill in Cyrodiil. Been playing it for 10 years but I guess he will have to retire from war now and give me yet another reason to log in even less than I do now.

Bushido2513

Katahdin wrote: »

This change sucks, is really clunky and pretty much makes cloak on a stamblade not possible any more.

Really glad I maxed out my NB to Grand Overlord, etc a long time ago because this change makes NB, particularly stam NB an easy target and kill in Cyrodiil. Been playing it for 10 years but I guess he will have to retire from war now and give me yet another reason to log in even less than I do now.

This is actually a really interesting comment. I get where you're coming from on how this change could suck but I'm also thinking of how it feels to hear there might potentially be less NB and cloakers in pvp.

I wouldn't want to see population decline but if the missing population were NB I'd be torn on exactly how much happier I'd be.

I think we're about to see which is which though. Will ZOS have to revert this change due to player loss? Will more players who didn't like NB constant cloaking come back to PVP? I think this sucks for NB but is worth seeing the effect of on the game for at least a patch cycle.

ioResult

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think we're about to see which is which though. Will ZOS have to revert this change due to player loss? Will more players who didn't like NB constant cloaking come back to PVP? I think this sucks for NB but is worth seeing the effect of on the game for at least a patch cycle.

As I've said before anyone who says "constant cloaking" doesn't know how stealth works in ESO. There have never been nighblades in "perma-cloak". They CROUCH, just like any toon of any class can crouch. You become a vampire and lose the movement penalty of Sneaking (i.e. walking while crouched). Then they put CP into Sneak costing less and into reducing the distance at which they can be detected while Sneaking.

Literally none of this has anything to do with Shadowy Disguise. You can do this with any class using zero Nightblade abilities. Just be a vampire.

Now that ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise a 2s/tick toggle ability that disables Mag Regen while moving, you won't see any fewer Nightblades, you just will see them less in your PvDoor zergs and more at range because what this change affects most is GUARDS in Cyrodiil. All ZOS have succeeded in doing is make it difficult for Nightblades to get out of sight of guards without draining all your Magicka.

There will now be MORE of them outside contested keeps, waiting in CROUCH to shoot people off their horses and *** them all off to the point that Nightblades get even more salty hate whispers.

ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise an unwieldy confusing mess of a skill where you can't tell whether its toggled on or off while in combat because EVERYTHING for Nightblades has some sort of red glow (including the SoulCleaver set and Motifs) and you end up with no Magicka in a few seconds because its toggled on even though you are visible and fighting.

So Nightblade mains will do what we've always done with every single nerf that ZOS has thrown at us at the behest of everyone maining other classes in PvP. We will adapt. Everyone else will still complain about Nightblades in "perma-cloak" because they don't know how to play a stealthy toon in ESO.

Bushido2513

ioResult wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think we're about to see which is which though. Will ZOS have to revert this change due to player loss? Will more players who didn't like NB constant cloaking come back to PVP? I think this sucks for NB but is worth seeing the effect of on the game for at least a patch cycle.

As I've said before anyone who says "constant cloaking" doesn't know how stealth works in ESO. There have never been nighblades in "perma-cloak". They CROUCH, just like any toon of any class can crouch. You become a vampire and lose the movement penalty of Sneaking (i.e. walking while crouched). Then they put CP into Sneak costing less and into reducing the distance at which they can be detected while Sneaking.

Literally none of this has anything to do with Shadowy Disguise. You can do this with any class using zero Nightblade abilities. Just be a vampire.

Now that ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise a 2s/tick toggle ability that disables Mag Regen while moving, you won't see any fewer Nightblades, you just will see them less in your PvDoor zergs and more at range because what this change affects most is GUARDS in Cyrodiil. All ZOS have succeeded in doing is make it difficult for Nightblades to get out of sight of guards without draining all your Magicka.

There will now be MORE of them outside contested keeps, waiting in CROUCH to shoot people off their horses and *** them all off to the point that Nightblades get even more salty hate whispers.

ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise an unwieldy confusing mess of a skill where you can't tell whether its toggled on or off while in combat because EVERYTHING for Nightblades has some sort of red glow (including the SoulCleaver set and Motifs) and you end up with no Magicka in a few seconds because its toggled on even though you are visible and fighting.

So Nightblade mains will do what we've always done with every single nerf that ZOS has thrown at us at the behest of everyone maining other classes in PvP. We will adapt. Everyone else will still complain about Nightblades in "perma-cloak" because they don't know how to play a stealthy toon in ESO.

I said constant cloaking because I specifically meant the act of reusing cloak over and over. I'll give an enable and I can post a video if needed just to be clear.

I'm talking about the opponent that comes out of stealth, hits you with an attack or two, stealths again then moves in the few seconds and launches another attack, stealths again, and repeats as much as their sustain can tolerate.

And yes I use reveals and pots but if they know what they are doing they just hit stealth and back away into a crouch or another stealth if they have the sustain until I run low on resources or I'm on cool down. I'm not saying that the counters don't work but that they are soft counters that can be gotten around by a smart player that understands how to get around them.

Honestly perma cloak wouldn't be an issue because you can't both be in cloak and attacking so I don't think anyone is really talking about perma cloak, we're talking about players thar cloak 3 or more times during an encounter without straining their resources. A powerful tool like cloak should be powerful but it should require smart usage and not be something that can just casually be used without building for that.

Also I don't have an issue with bow blades because if you chase and reveal them their options are rightfully limited because they aren't as well built for close range combat or brawling, and I can use los on them. To me that's a fair trade.

ioResult

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm talking about the opponent that comes out of stealth, hits you with an attack or two, stealths again then moves in the few seconds and launches another attack, stealths again, and repeats as much as their sustain can tolerate.

And yes I use reveals and pots but if they know what they are doing they just hit stealth and back away into a crouch or another stealth if they have the sustain until I run low on resources or I'm on cool down. I'm not saying that the counters don't work but that they are soft counters that can be gotten around by a smart player that understands how to get around them

Yes and as one of the players who knows how to use their Nightblade toolkit effectively exactly as you describe, that's why we're so pissed off at ZOS. I'm just as good on my Nightblade as others are on their DK, Sorc or Warden. But have any of those had their core ability to play their playstyle just completely taken away? No, no they haven't. Mine was just gutted & anyone who says it wasn't doesn't play the playstyle that you just accurately described. I tried it in Cyrodiil in a couple of contested keeps last night and ran out of Magicka every time and then was zerg'd down and bagged by zerglings.

Beyond the toggle being complete garbage, there is the fact that everything glows red on Nightblade abilities and sets and motifs, so you can't tell if the toggle is actually on by accident or not when in the heat of combat so you end up with zero Magicka when you need it. If its a toggle, the visual effect of it being toggled on needs to be really unique and not used for anything else Nightblades do - so we can TELL that it's on. But I won't hold my breath for ZOS to do anything in that area for at least another patch or two - you know, by the time most have abandoned their Nightblade and even abandones ESO for another game.

And ZOS wants me to continue to pay them every month for the privilege of waiting for them to fix the visuals on something they shouldn't have changed the way they did? Nope, that's not happening. The change was supposedly necessary to make the skill more accessible to newer players. That's not gonna happen because it's too unwieldy to use in combat. You should be happy. You won't have to face the Nightblades you describe above anymore. The ones on melee will all be Brawlers now using the other morph to out heal you as you LOS around trees and rocks.

Honestly perma cloak wouldn't be an issue because you can't both be in cloak and attacking so I don't think anyone is really talking about perma cloak, we're talking about players thar cloak 3 or more times during an encounter without straining their resources. A powerful tool like cloak should be powerful but it should require smart usage and not be something that can just casually be used without building for that.

Lots of people in the PTS threads had screamed about perma-cloaking. It's what got us to this whole terrible cloak change in the first place. I was never that active in the forums prior to this issue because I was always live & let live. But be sure now, I am going to make it my mission to get Sorcs nerfed, Wardens nerfed and DKs nerfed in a fundamental way the same way that Nightblade has just been fundamentally gutted for the Nightblade PvP playstyle you accurately mentioned above.

Also I don't have an issue with bow blades because if you chase and reveal them their options are rightfully limited because they aren't as well built for close range combat or brawling, and I can use los on them. To me that's a fair trade.

Difference is now there will be packs of bowblades all the time going after single targets. Pissed off Nightblade mains are going to make sure of it. So there won't be and LOS'ing 5, 6, 8, 10 Nightblades in a pack popping out of crouch. And when victims complain in salty whispers and on the forums about it, I'm sure ZOS devs will again do something to thwart Nightblades because that's all they've ever done patch after patch after patch in the last decade. They nerf an ability or a set each time Nightblades adapt and find a way to use it and especially if other classes catch on to it.

Like right now. Saw a ton of stealthy Sorcs running Anthemir's and Thunder Caller last night in Cyrodiil. All of them are players I recognize as people who like to run ranged Nightblade gankers. Last patch, these same people were on Nightblades running Tarnished and Anthelmir's as bowblades. So what did ZOS do this patch? Nerf Cloak AND nerf Tarnished. What will ZOS do next patch now that Nightblade mains are moving to Sorc to be able to Streak away since ZOS nerfed Cloak - their only escape tool?

Anthelmir's will get nerfed next patch probably along with anything that is taking advantage of the OP extra lightning damage that Sorcs get.

So get ready for a bunch of new stealthy Sorcs as well as packs of bowblades. This is what ZOS has reduced open world PvP to be for those who don't want to just PvDoor in mega-zergs and get farmed by ball groups.

Katahdin

ioResult wrote: »

As I've said before anyone who says "constant cloaking" doesn't know how stealth works in ESO. There have never been nighblades in "perma-cloak". They CROUCH, just like any toon of any class can crouch. You become a vampire and lose the movement penalty of Sneaking (i.e. walking while crouched). Then they put CP into Sneak costing less and into reducing the distance at which they can be detected while Sneaking.

Literally none of this has anything to do with Shadowy Disguise. You can do this with any class using zero Nightblade abilities. Just be a vampire.

.

I put way too much time and effort into how my charcters look when I made them to make them look like a dead corpse.
I shouldnt have to be a vampire to be a nightblade.

Stamblades CAN NOT PERMA CLOAK. Before the nerf, the most times they could use cloak was 3 times before they run out of magicka. For a stamblade, cloak was pretty much only the defensive ability they had. They dont carry shields, their heals arent that great and they are squishy because they give all that up for high burst damage. Even then with the 12 or so counters to cloak, if they got caught most of the time they are dead. This toggle makes it so much more clunky to use and completely negates its usefulness. The second you run out of magicka = dead

Magblades however CAN cloak halfway across the map if they want because of the magicka they typically carry and the regen they have. Stamblades would have to give up too much damage to cloak that much.

For anyone saying, "just go brawler"....might as well switch to DK or warden for that because they do it better

bladenick

ioResult wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm talking about the opponent that comes out of stealth, hits you with an attack or two, stealths again then moves in the few seconds and launches another attack, stealths again, and repeats as much as their sustain can tolerate.

And yes I use reveals and pots but if they know what they are doing they just hit stealth and back away into a crouch or another stealth if they have the sustain until I run low on resources or I'm on cool down. I'm not saying that the counters don't work but that they are soft counters that can be gotten around by a smart player that understands how to get around them

Yes and as one of the players who knows how to use their Nightblade toolkit effectively exactly as you describe, that's why we're so pissed off at ZOS. I'm just as good on my Nightblade as others are on their DK, Sorc or Warden. But have any of those had their core ability to play their playstyle just completely taken away? No, no they haven't. Mine was just gutted & anyone who says it wasn't doesn't play the playstyle that you just accurately described. I tried it in Cyrodiil in a couple of contested keeps last night and ran out of Magicka every time and then was zerg'd down and bagged by zerglings.

Beyond the toggle being complete garbage, there is the fact that everything glows red on Nightblade abilities and sets and motifs, so you can't tell if the toggle is actually on by accident or not when in the heat of combat so you end up with zero Magicka when you need it. If its a toggle, the visual effect of it being toggled on needs to be really unique and not used for anything else Nightblades do - so we can TELL that it's on. But I won't hold my breath for ZOS to do anything in that area for at least another patch or two - you know, by the time most have abandoned their Nightblade and even abandones ESO for another game.

And ZOS wants me to continue to pay them every month for the privilege of waiting for them to fix the visuals on something they shouldn't have changed the way they did? Nope, that's not happening. The change was supposedly necessary to make the skill more accessible to newer players. That's not gonna happen because it's too unwieldy to use in combat. You should be happy. You won't have to face the Nightblades you describe above anymore. The ones on melee will all be Brawlers now using the other morph to out heal you as you LOS around trees and rocks.

Honestly perma cloak wouldn't be an issue because you can't both be in cloak and attacking so I don't think anyone is really talking about perma cloak, we're talking about players thar cloak 3 or more times during an encounter without straining their resources. A powerful tool like cloak should be powerful but it should require smart usage and not be something that can just casually be used without building for that.

Lots of people in the PTS threads had screamed about perma-cloaking. It's what got us to this whole terrible cloak change in the first place. I was never that active in the forums prior to this issue because I was always live & let live. But be sure now, I am going to make it my mission to get Sorcs nerfed, Wardens nerfed and DKs nerfed in a fundamental way the same way that Nightblade has just been fundamentally gutted for the Nightblade PvP playstyle you accurately mentioned above.

Also I don't have an issue with bow blades because if you chase and reveal them their options are rightfully limited because they aren't as well built for close range combat or brawling, and I can use los on them. To me that's a fair trade.

Difference is now there will be packs of bowblades all the time going after single targets. Pissed off Nightblade mains are going to make sure of it. So there won't be and LOS'ing 5, 6, 8, 10 Nightblades in a pack popping out of crouch. And when victims complain in salty whispers and on the forums about it, I'm sure ZOS devs will again do something to thwart Nightblades because that's all they've ever done patch after patch after patch in the last decade. They nerf an ability or a set each time Nightblades adapt and find a way to use it and especially if other classes catch on to it.

Like right now. Saw a ton of stealthy Sorcs running Anthemir's and Thunder Caller last night in Cyrodiil. All of them are players I recognize as people who like to run ranged Nightblade gankers. Last patch, these same people were on Nightblades running Tarnished and Anthelmir's as bowblades. So what did ZOS do this patch? Nerf Cloak AND nerf Tarnished. What will ZOS do next patch now that Nightblade mains are moving to Sorc to be able to Streak away since ZOS nerfed Cloak - their only escape tool?

Anthelmir's will get nerfed next patch probably along with anything that is taking advantage of the OP extra lightning damage that Sorcs get.

So get ready for a bunch of new stealthy Sorcs as well as packs of bowblades. This is what ZOS has reduced open world PvP to be for those who don't want to just PvDoor in mega-zergs and get farmed by ball groups.

I’m also NB main, I also admit the range Proc NB is too OP in pre U44

The cloak itself exist for 10 years, it get OP because more and more good proc set roll out, it definitely not good way to re- tune proc set, so the only direction is just nerf Cloak

SaffronCitrusflower

bladenick wrote: »

Update Sep23
If range proc set stealth NB is major problem, just prevent caster go visibility after those proc effect triggered? For example, poison arrow, way of fire, sheer venom, let it force reveal caster’s invisible, then it solved problem and don’t ruin the class,

Make NB burst damage only possible in melee
———————————————-
Update Sep 19
The most attractive part of ESO is freedom of build, we build character for certain play style, stealth class with perm cloak is one of style, it better adjust investment/reward ratio, for example increase cost of cloak, the player need invest more in mag recover, then he lost offense/defense, also the anti stealth skill could further strengthen, for example increasing detect radius or durations, that far more better than eliminate this play style entirely

Eliminating this kind of stealth player style, especially NB cloak which already exsit for 10 years and many many player get fun from it , it not good solution by any means


ZOS please don’t balance the game with WOW mindset, as dev always want to define how player play the game, and perfect balance equal unify, as all class lost identity and get similar
—————-/——————————-


Update Sep 18
This class lose identity , the dev seems aim at no stealth class in PVP, maybe for the incoming 2 side BG, to avoid 4 NB team and perm cloak

Need class redesign rather than only change the cloak which is core skill and all play style and build are base on this

———————————————

The change of shadow cloak is purely nerf to ground, and no counter compensation on other skill adjustments, all current play style shall either impossible or much more difficult


update:
1. once cast cloak, you go to "Invisible" status, it NOT auto switch to "Hide" status, unless you run out of Mana.
2. once cast cloak, the mana restore is 0, and drain mana 2xxx every 2 seconds, with 20k mana pool, you can only sustain invisible for 10 - 14 seconds.
3. Toggle off, need cast a skill which reveal "HIDE", or attack an enemy. refer to point 1, there no way to auto switch from "INVISIBLE" to "HIDE"

General impact: The stealth class gone in PVP ,it force NB to expose in blank sight and only cast shadow disguise when you want guaranteed critical, in 2 seconds and no more. As detect pot still 40m range, use it for escape is stupid as you burn mana under detect pot

the only vible NB build are range stem NB and melee tanker with other cloak morph, the former one could left all mana pool to cast Cloak, the later use other morph.
the mag NB range/melee is dead, it impossible to use mana to cast cloak and offence skill(spamable conceal weapon as example) at same time...because during invisible there 0 mana restore and drain mana constantly.

As incap and spectral bow designed as easy to miss, it expecting execution without notice by enemy, consequently incap will be useless as stealth approaches enemy with enough resource to release combo shall be hard core , because every body saw you in engage in combat then invisible in blank sight, every body know you need take action in 2 seconds, dare not to stay invisible more then 5 seconds, that to easy to counter.

currently melee NB need repeat cast cloak and approach enemy to release Incap, this play style is no more and if insist to do it will end at zero mana after incap







surpprisely the sorc hardward is not touched..(mistake here , get 33% healing nerf)

In PvP NB's never should have been able to cloak for more than a few seconds from the beginning. As with RoA and other free pull sets, cloak is just bad game design in a PvP situation.

LadyLethalla

Cast_El wrote: »

This is not a nerf. Toogle it, crouch, toogle it off. Job done 👍

I cannot uncrouch. 4 minutes after I cast the skill, if I'm standing still my magicka goes up and down like a yo yo. If I start moving it goes down like a stamina sprint drain. I don't see how this ISN'T a bug, not being able to uncrouch.

Bushido2513

ioResult wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm talking about the opponent that comes out of stealth, hits you with an attack or two, stealths again then moves in the few seconds and launches another attack, stealths again, and repeats as much as their sustain can tolerate.

And yes I use reveals and pots but if they know what they are doing they just hit stealth and back away into a crouch or another stealth if they have the sustain until I run low on resources or I'm on cool down. I'm not saying that the counters don't work but that they are soft counters that can be gotten around by a smart player that understands how to get around them

Yes and as one of the players who knows how to use their Nightblade toolkit effectively exactly as you describe, that's why we're so pissed off at ZOS. I'm just as good on my Nightblade as others are on their DK, Sorc or Warden. But have any of those had their core ability to play their playstyle just completely taken away? No, no they haven't. Mine was just gutted & anyone who says it wasn't doesn't play the playstyle that you just accurately described. I tried it in Cyrodiil in a couple of contested keeps last night and ran out of Magicka every time and then was zerg'd down and bagged by zerglings.

Beyond the toggle being complete garbage, there is the fact that everything glows red on Nightblade abilities and sets and motifs, so you can't tell if the toggle is actually on by accident or not when in the heat of combat so you end up with zero Magicka when you need it. If its a toggle, the visual effect of it being toggled on needs to be really unique and not used for anything else Nightblades do - so we can TELL that it's on. But I won't hold my breath for ZOS to do anything in that area for at least another patch or two - you know, by the time most have abandoned their Nightblade and even abandones ESO for another game.

And ZOS wants me to continue to pay them every month for the privilege of waiting for them to fix the visuals on something they shouldn't have changed the way they did? Nope, that's not happening. The change was supposedly necessary to make the skill more accessible to newer players. That's not gonna happen because it's too unwieldy to use in combat. You should be happy. You won't have to face the Nightblades you describe above anymore. The ones on melee will all be Brawlers now using the other morph to out heal you as you LOS around trees and rocks.

Honestly perma cloak wouldn't be an issue because you can't both be in cloak and attacking so I don't think anyone is really talking about perma cloak, we're talking about players thar cloak 3 or more times during an encounter without straining their resources. A powerful tool like cloak should be powerful but it should require smart usage and not be something that can just casually be used without building for that.

Lots of people in the PTS threads had screamed about perma-cloaking. It's what got us to this whole terrible cloak change in the first place. I was never that active in the forums prior to this issue because I was always live & let live. But be sure now, I am going to make it my mission to get Sorcs nerfed, Wardens nerfed and DKs nerfed in a fundamental way the same way that Nightblade has just been fundamentally gutted for the Nightblade PvP playstyle you accurately mentioned above.

Also I don't have an issue with bow blades because if you chase and reveal them their options are rightfully limited because they aren't as well built for close range combat or brawling, and I can use los on them. To me that's a fair trade.

Difference is now there will be packs of bowblades all the time going after single targets. Pissed off Nightblade mains are going to make sure of it. So there won't be and LOS'ing 5, 6, 8, 10 Nightblades in a pack popping out of crouch. And when victims complain in salty whispers and on the forums about it, I'm sure ZOS devs will again do something to thwart Nightblades because that's all they've ever done patch after patch after patch in the last decade. They nerf an ability or a set each time Nightblades adapt and find a way to use it and especially if other classes catch on to it.

Like right now. Saw a ton of stealthy Sorcs running Anthemir's and Thunder Caller last night in Cyrodiil. All of them are players I recognize as people who like to run ranged Nightblade gankers. Last patch, these same people were on Nightblades running Tarnished and Anthelmir's as bowblades. So what did ZOS do this patch? Nerf Cloak AND nerf Tarnished. What will ZOS do next patch now that Nightblade mains are moving to Sorc to be able to Streak away since ZOS nerfed Cloak - their only escape tool?

Anthelmir's will get nerfed next patch probably along with anything that is taking advantage of the OP extra lightning damage that Sorcs get.

So get ready for a bunch of new stealthy Sorcs as well as packs of bowblades. This is what ZOS has reduced open world PvP to be for those who don't want to just PvDoor in mega-zergs and get farmed by ball groups.

Well I I think you're correct in saying you were effectively using your kit however just like sorc with ridiculous shields at the moment, just because it's effective for you doesn't mean it feels healthy for other players or even to ZOS.

Honestly over the years there have been changes to core skills on each class but that's not important because we're really taking about the game we have to play right now. There are several balance issues spread across the classes so I'll just say that yes they all need balance passes.

I do think the toggle is a really bad way to go especially due to lag. I rarely even play in lag because the way I play requires that skills work as timely as possible and I could see toggle being a major issue with trying to use cloak in pvp. Ramping cost or anything less clunky might have been better.

As for groups of anything I'll just say that coordinated groups of any class can kill you even if it was say a bunch of necros. If you catch me not near Los or not ready to do multiple dodge rolls and streaks then hey it just is what it is. And even if people want to vamp stealth that's fine or stealth pots no problem. I just don't want someone speeding around evading counters with relative ease while responding with hard hitting attacks.

At least with a pack of other classes I can count them as they kill me. NB just repeatedly turns a fight into a guessing game and not a fun one most of the time.

KingLewie_III

ioResult wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think we're about to see which is which though. Will ZOS have to revert this change due to player loss? Will more players who didn't like NB constant cloaking come back to PVP? I think this sucks for NB but is worth seeing the effect of on the game for at least a patch cycle.

As I've said before anyone who says "constant cloaking" doesn't know how stealth works in ESO. There have never been nighblades in "perma-cloak". They CROUCH, just like any toon of any class can crouch. You become a vampire and lose the movement penalty of Sneaking (i.e. walking while crouched). Then they put CP into Sneak costing less and into reducing the distance at which they can be detected while Sneaking.

Literally none of this has anything to do with Shadowy Disguise. You can do this with any class using zero Nightblade abilities. Just be a vampire.

Now that ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise a 2s/tick toggle ability that disables Mag Regen while moving, you won't see any fewer Nightblades, you just will see them less in your PvDoor zergs and more at range because what this change affects most is GUARDS in Cyrodiil. All ZOS have succeeded in doing is make it difficult for Nightblades to get out of sight of guards without draining all your Magicka.

There will now be MORE of them outside contested keeps, waiting in CROUCH to shoot people off their horses and *** them all off to the point that Nightblades get even more salty hate whispers.

ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise an unwieldy confusing mess of a skill where you can't tell whether its toggled on or off while in combat because EVERYTHING for Nightblades has some sort of red glow (including the SoulCleaver set and Motifs) and you end up with no Magicka in a few seconds because its toggled on even though you are visible and fighting.

So Nightblade mains will do what we've always done with every single nerf that ZOS has thrown at us at the behest of everyone maining other classes in PvP. We will adapt. Everyone else will still complain about Nightblades in "perma-cloak" because they don't know how to play a stealthy toon in ESO.

I'm not sure you're aware, but you just proved everyone's point about how cloak is exploited very easily by even a beginner level player. No one should have an ability that plays defense for them by disabling another players ability to target them. You've phrased it as using the toolkit effectively, without the realization of how broken of a mechanic that is. Sorc's Hardened Ward is the closest comparison at the moment, but even that falls short of all the advantages cloak brings to Nightblade. At least with a shield, the player can still be targeted, CC'd, Etc. With Cloak in its current form, you quite literally don't have to play defensively, you can stay on the offensive the entire time and disengage at will with no drawback at all. There's no risk to match the reward of stealth gameplay in a PVP environment right now. And before you mention anything about all players having the ability to crouch, try c on any other class to evade an attack in 1 global cool down, mid fight, with an opposing player staring right at you by crouching. Nightblade does that no problem with the press of a button.

BlueRaven

KingLewie_III wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think we're about to see which is which though. Will ZOS have to revert this change due to player loss? Will more players who didn't like NB constant cloaking come back to PVP? I think this sucks for NB but is worth seeing the effect of on the game for at least a patch cycle.

As I've said before anyone who says "constant cloaking" doesn't know how stealth works in ESO. There have never been nighblades in "perma-cloak". They CROUCH, just like any toon of any class can crouch. You become a vampire and lose the movement penalty of Sneaking (i.e. walking while crouched). Then they put CP into Sneak costing less and into reducing the distance at which they can be detected while Sneaking.

Literally none of this has anything to do with Shadowy Disguise. You can do this with any class using zero Nightblade abilities. Just be a vampire.

Now that ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise a 2s/tick toggle ability that disables Mag Regen while moving, you won't see any fewer Nightblades, you just will see them less in your PvDoor zergs and more at range because what this change affects most is GUARDS in Cyrodiil. All ZOS have succeeded in doing is make it difficult for Nightblades to get out of sight of guards without draining all your Magicka.

There will now be MORE of them outside contested keeps, waiting in CROUCH to shoot people off their horses and *** them all off to the point that Nightblades get even more salty hate whispers.

ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise an unwieldy confusing mess of a skill where you can't tell whether its toggled on or off while in combat because EVERYTHING for Nightblades has some sort of red glow (including the SoulCleaver set and Motifs) and you end up with no Magicka in a few seconds because its toggled on even though you are visible and fighting.

So Nightblade mains will do what we've always done with every single nerf that ZOS has thrown at us at the behest of everyone maining other classes in PvP. We will adapt. Everyone else will still complain about Nightblades in "perma-cloak" because they don't know how to play a stealthy toon in ESO.

I'm not sure you're aware, but you just proved everyone's point about how cloak is exploited very easily by even a beginner level player. No one should have an ability that plays defense for them by disabling another players ability to target them. You've phrased it as using the toolkit effectively, without the realization of how broken of a mechanic that is. Sorc's Hardened Ward is the closest comparison at the moment, but even that falls short of all the advantages cloak brings to Nightblade. At least with a shield, the player can still be targeted, CC'd, Etc. With Cloak in its current form, you quite literally don't have to play defensively, you can stay on the offensive the entire time and disengage at will with no drawback at all. There's no risk to match the reward of stealth gameplay in a PVP environment right now. And before you mention anything about all players having the ability to crouch, try c on any other class to evade an attack in 1 global cool down, mid fight, with an opposing player staring right at you by crouching. Nightblade does that no problem with the press of a button.

So do all “not being able to target” functions in the game need to be removed? Like streak, invisibility potions, stuns, traps, etc?

I would say this is a crazy suggestion but…

“Nerf rock, paper is fine.” - Scissors

Bushido2513

BlueRaven wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think we're about to see which is which though. Will ZOS have to revert this change due to player loss? Will more players who didn't like NB constant cloaking come back to PVP? I think this sucks for NB but is worth seeing the effect of on the game for at least a patch cycle.

As I've said before anyone who says "constant cloaking" doesn't know how stealth works in ESO. There have never been nighblades in "perma-cloak". They CROUCH, just like any toon of any class can crouch. You become a vampire and lose the movement penalty of Sneaking (i.e. walking while crouched). Then they put CP into Sneak costing less and into reducing the distance at which they can be detected while Sneaking.

Literally none of this has anything to do with Shadowy Disguise. You can do this with any class using zero Nightblade abilities. Just be a vampire.

Now that ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise a 2s/tick toggle ability that disables Mag Regen while moving, you won't see any fewer Nightblades, you just will see them less in your PvDoor zergs and more at range because what this change affects most is GUARDS in Cyrodiil. All ZOS have succeeded in doing is make it difficult for Nightblades to get out of sight of guards without draining all your Magicka.

There will now be MORE of them outside contested keeps, waiting in CROUCH to shoot people off their horses and *** them all off to the point that Nightblades get even more salty hate whispers.

ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise an unwieldy confusing mess of a skill where you can't tell whether its toggled on or off while in combat because EVERYTHING for Nightblades has some sort of red glow (including the SoulCleaver set and Motifs) and you end up with no Magicka in a few seconds because its toggled on even though you are visible and fighting.

So Nightblade mains will do what we've always done with every single nerf that ZOS has thrown at us at the behest of everyone maining other classes in PvP. We will adapt. Everyone else will still complain about Nightblades in "perma-cloak" because they don't know how to play a stealthy toon in ESO.

I'm not sure you're aware, but you just proved everyone's point about how cloak is exploited very easily by even a beginner level player. No one should have an ability that plays defense for them by disabling another players ability to target them. You've phrased it as using the toolkit effectively, without the realization of how broken of a mechanic that is. Sorc's Hardened Ward is the closest comparison at the moment, but even that falls short of all the advantages cloak brings to Nightblade. At least with a shield, the player can still be targeted, CC'd, Etc. With Cloak in its current form, you quite literally don't have to play defensively, you can stay on the offensive the entire time and disengage at will with no drawback at all. There's no risk to match the reward of stealth gameplay in a PVP environment right now. And before you mention anything about all players having the ability to crouch, try c on any other class to evade an attack in 1 global cool down, mid fight, with an opposing player staring right at you by crouching. Nightblade does that no problem with the press of a button.

So do all “not being able to target” functions in the game need to be removed? Like streak, invisibility potions, stuns, traps, etc?

I would say this is a crazy suggestion but…

“Nerf rock, paper is fine.” - Scissors

Well cloak isn't being removed just altered. Over the years I believe all the other skills you mentioned have been altered as well.

Also streak shouldn't exactly be counted as removing your ability to target the player, you absolutely still can target them. We're talking about where cloak means I just can't lock on to you regardless of you being 3 meters away or 30 meters away

BlueRaven

Bushido2513 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think we're about to see which is which though. Will ZOS have to revert this change due to player loss? Will more players who didn't like NB constant cloaking come back to PVP? I think this sucks for NB but is worth seeing the effect of on the game for at least a patch cycle.

As I've said before anyone who says "constant cloaking" doesn't know how stealth works in ESO. There have never been nighblades in "perma-cloak". They CROUCH, just like any toon of any class can crouch. You become a vampire and lose the movement penalty of Sneaking (i.e. walking while crouched). Then they put CP into Sneak costing less and into reducing the distance at which they can be detected while Sneaking.

Literally none of this has anything to do with Shadowy Disguise. You can do this with any class using zero Nightblade abilities. Just be a vampire.

Now that ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise a 2s/tick toggle ability that disables Mag Regen while moving, you won't see any fewer Nightblades, you just will see them less in your PvDoor zergs and more at range because what this change affects most is GUARDS in Cyrodiil. All ZOS have succeeded in doing is make it difficult for Nightblades to get out of sight of guards without draining all your Magicka.

There will now be MORE of them outside contested keeps, waiting in CROUCH to shoot people off their horses and *** them all off to the point that Nightblades get even more salty hate whispers.

ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise an unwieldy confusing mess of a skill where you can't tell whether its toggled on or off while in combat because EVERYTHING for Nightblades has some sort of red glow (including the SoulCleaver set and Motifs) and you end up with no Magicka in a few seconds because its toggled on even though you are visible and fighting.

So Nightblade mains will do what we've always done with every single nerf that ZOS has thrown at us at the behest of everyone maining other classes in PvP. We will adapt. Everyone else will still complain about Nightblades in "perma-cloak" because they don't know how to play a stealthy toon in ESO.

I'm not sure you're aware, but you just proved everyone's point about how cloak is exploited very easily by even a beginner level player. No one should have an ability that plays defense for them by disabling another players ability to target them. You've phrased it as using the toolkit effectively, without the realization of how broken of a mechanic that is. Sorc's Hardened Ward is the closest comparison at the moment, but even that falls short of all the advantages cloak brings to Nightblade. At least with a shield, the player can still be targeted, CC'd, Etc. With Cloak in its current form, you quite literally don't have to play defensively, you can stay on the offensive the entire time and disengage at will with no drawback at all. There's no risk to match the reward of stealth gameplay in a PVP environment right now. And before you mention anything about all players having the ability to crouch, try c on any other class to evade an attack in 1 global cool down, mid fight, with an opposing player staring right at you by crouching. Nightblade does that no problem with the press of a button.

So do all “not being able to target” functions in the game need to be removed? Like streak, invisibility potions, stuns, traps, etc?

I would say this is a crazy suggestion but…

“Nerf rock, paper is fine.” - Scissors

Well cloak isn't being removed just altered. Over the years I believe all the other skills you mentioned have been altered as well.

Also streak shouldn't exactly be counted as removing your ability to target the player, you absolutely still can target them. We're talking about where cloak means I just can't lock on to you regardless of you being 3 meters away or 30 meters away

I was not aware you can target players who are behind you while stunned, which is the main effect of streak, is it not?

Cloak is being “altered” so that it is too expensive to use effectively. But hey, they are one of the worst classes at the moment, so I guess they are deserving of a nerf.

It was the one remaining class skill that did anything remotely interesting and useful. And now I have a bunch of nbs that don’t use class skills.

Rohamad_Ali

Change is no Bueno ZoS but this one one can help but wonder was this new cloak the "fix" for the old cloak always being broken? If it was a game engineering reason, knowing would be good.

ioResult

BlueRaven wrote: »

Cloak is being “altered” so that it is too expensive to use effectively. But hey, they are one of the worst classes at the moment, so I guess they are deserving of a nerf.

It was the one remaining class skill that did anything remotely interesting and useful. And now I have a bunch of nbs that don’t use class skills.

And this is exactly why I saw a few more of my friends in Discord say they were turning off their ESO Plus subscriptions today. When asked by ZOS in email why, they told ZOS it's because they didn't just nerf Cloak, they effectively broke it for the whole class.

ioResult

KingLewie_III wrote: »

I'm not sure you're aware, but you just proved everyone's point about how cloak is exploited very easily by even a beginner level player. No one should have an ability that plays defense for them by disabling another players ability to target them. You've phrased it as using the toolkit effectively, without the realization of how broken of a mechanic that is. Sorc's Hardened Ward is the closest comparison at the moment, but even that falls short of all the advantages cloak brings to Nightblade. At least with a shield, the player can still be targeted, CC'd, Etc. With Cloak in its current form, you quite literally don't have to play defensively, you can stay on the offensive the entire time and disengage at will with no drawback at all. There's no risk to match the reward of stealth gameplay in a PVP environment right now. And before you mention anything about all players having the ability to crouch, try c on any other class to evade an attack in 1 global cool down, mid fight, with an opposing player staring right at you by crouching. Nightblade does that no problem with the press of a button.

Exploited?

Tell me you've never played Nightblade without telling me you've never played Nightblade. LMAO SMH

There are so many counters in the game now to Cloak. Anyone can counter it. If you don't know any of the myriad of ways to counter Cloak then you aren't a PvPer.

And no risk playing Nightblade? Thanks I showed that to a bunch of Nightblades and they were howling with laughter.

NEWSFLASH:

There are NO counters to Streak.

There are NO counters to Leap.

There are NO counters to the infinite shields that Arcanists are getting in PvP.

But sure, Cloak was the problem. /eyeroll

KaosWarMonk

LadyLethalla wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

This is not a nerf. Toogle it, crouch, toogle it off. Job done 👍

I cannot uncrouch. 4 minutes after I cast the skill, if I'm standing still my magicka goes up and down like a yo yo. If I start moving it goes down like a stamina sprint drain. I don't see how this ISN'T a bug, not being able to uncrouch.

Need to decloak to un-crouch. So hit the skill again or start sprinting.

Bushido2513

BlueRaven wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think we're about to see which is which though. Will ZOS have to revert this change due to player loss? Will more players who didn't like NB constant cloaking come back to PVP? I think this sucks for NB but is worth seeing the effect of on the game for at least a patch cycle.

As I've said before anyone who says "constant cloaking" doesn't know how stealth works in ESO. There have never been nighblades in "perma-cloak". They CROUCH, just like any toon of any class can crouch. You become a vampire and lose the movement penalty of Sneaking (i.e. walking while crouched). Then they put CP into Sneak costing less and into reducing the distance at which they can be detected while Sneaking.

Literally none of this has anything to do with Shadowy Disguise. You can do this with any class using zero Nightblade abilities. Just be a vampire.

Now that ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise a 2s/tick toggle ability that disables Mag Regen while moving, you won't see any fewer Nightblades, you just will see them less in your PvDoor zergs and more at range because what this change affects most is GUARDS in Cyrodiil. All ZOS have succeeded in doing is make it difficult for Nightblades to get out of sight of guards without draining all your Magicka.

There will now be MORE of them outside contested keeps, waiting in CROUCH to shoot people off their horses and *** them all off to the point that Nightblades get even more salty hate whispers.

ZOS has made Shadowy Disguise an unwieldy confusing mess of a skill where you can't tell whether its toggled on or off while in combat because EVERYTHING for Nightblades has some sort of red glow (including the SoulCleaver set and Motifs) and you end up with no Magicka in a few seconds because its toggled on even though you are visible and fighting.

So Nightblade mains will do what we've always done with every single nerf that ZOS has thrown at us at the behest of everyone maining other classes in PvP. We will adapt. Everyone else will still complain about Nightblades in "perma-cloak" because they don't know how to play a stealthy toon in ESO.

I'm not sure you're aware, but you just proved everyone's point about how cloak is exploited very easily by even a beginner level player. No one should have an ability that plays defense for them by disabling another players ability to target them. You've phrased it as using the toolkit effectively, without the realization of how broken of a mechanic that is. Sorc's Hardened Ward is the closest comparison at the moment, but even that falls short of all the advantages cloak brings to Nightblade. At least with a shield, the player can still be targeted, CC'd, Etc. With Cloak in its current form, you quite literally don't have to play defensively, you can stay on the offensive the entire time and disengage at will with no drawback at all. There's no risk to match the reward of stealth gameplay in a PVP environment right now. And before you mention anything about all players having the ability to crouch, try c on any other class to evade an attack in 1 global cool down, mid fight, with an opposing player staring right at you by crouching. Nightblade does that no problem with the press of a button.

So do all “not being able to target” functions in the game need to be removed? Like streak, invisibility potions, stuns, traps, etc?

I would say this is a crazy suggestion but…

“Nerf rock, paper is fine.” - Scissors

Well cloak isn't being removed just altered. Over the years I believe all the other skills you mentioned have been altered as well.

Also streak shouldn't exactly be counted as removing your ability to target the player, you absolutely still can target them. We're talking about where cloak means I just can't lock on to you regardless of you being 3 meters away or 30 meters away

I was not aware you can target players who are behind you while stunned, which is the main effect of streak, is it not?

Cloak is being “altered” so that it is too expensive to use effectively. But hey, they are one of the worst classes at the moment, so I guess they are deserving of a nerf.

It was the one remaining class skill that did anything remotely interesting and useful. And now I have a bunch of nbs that don’t use class skills.

Well yes if I stun you then no you won't be able to target me and I'll likely be behind you however when you break free you'll be able to target me as you please and have immunity. If cloak is in play you can choose when or if I get to target to again for the most part. Yes I can pop a detect but if you know what you're doing you can just burn through that with a few evasive maneuvers and heals and the fight is back to your favor.


I don't agree with the toggle because I feel like it does contribute to situations where your resources get burned away at a possibly unfair rate. A ramp would have been better in my opinion as far as options that weren't clunky

Bushido2513

ioResult wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

I'm not sure you're aware, but you just proved everyone's point about how cloak is exploited very easily by even a beginner level player. No one should have an ability that plays defense for them by disabling another players ability to target them. You've phrased it as using the toolkit effectively, without the realization of how broken of a mechanic that is. Sorc's Hardened Ward is the closest comparison at the moment, but even that falls short of all the advantages cloak brings to Nightblade. At least with a shield, the player can still be targeted, CC'd, Etc. With Cloak in its current form, you quite literally don't have to play defensively, you can stay on the offensive the entire time and disengage at will with no drawback at all. There's no risk to match the reward of stealth gameplay in a PVP environment right now. And before you mention anything about all players having the ability to crouch, try c on any other class to evade an attack in 1 global cool down, mid fight, with an opposing player staring right at you by crouching. Nightblade does that no problem with the press of a button.

Exploited?

Tell me you've never played Nightblade without telling me you've never played Nightblade. LMAO SMH

There are so many counters in the game now to Cloak. Anyone can counter it. If you don't know any of the myriad of ways to counter Cloak then you aren't a PvPer.

And no risk playing Nightblade? Thanks I showed that to a bunch of Nightblades and they were howling with laughter.

NEWSFLASH:

There are NO counters to Streak.

There are NO counters to Leap.

There are NO counters to the infinite shields that Arcanists are getting in PvP.

But sure, Cloak was the problem. /eyeroll

Well exploited would be a very strong word and possibly incorrect depending on how you use it. It's not an exploit in the sense that it's a bug but it was something you could use repeatedly with ease and have a change of getting a good or great return on easily.

Also this person said no risk to equal the reward given which isn't saying there's no risk at all

There are counters and I use them but truth is that if someone just builds with a little speed and uses the decent heal that's in the kit they can likely get around the counters before you can mount an effective full burst. Only gank specs work in a high risk high reward fashion. Most other specs have more of a chance to get away than I would personally say is fair play.

I say this as a player that has both played NB and has fought a good number nbs ranging from those that clutch on cloak and die easy to those that only used cloak for the buff and clearly didn't need it to otherwise kill me. It's just easier than it needs to be for someone that's not good to be mid tier when they should be more likely to die and encouraged to learn more of the kit in my opinion.

Edit.

Streak is countered by movement speed or a gap closer. Movement speed is a lot easier to get and use in an overall build though.

Leap is countered by it being telegraphed and blockable.

Arc shields aren't as much of a problem anymore because the more shields they have, the less damage the tend to have. I've seen some tanky procanist but these days they usually take damage now if the deal damage.

ioResult

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Well exploited would be a very strong word and possibly incorrect depending on how you use it. It's not an exploit in the sense that it's a bug but it was something you could use repeatedly with ease and have a change of getting a good or great return on easily.

Also this person said no risk to equal the reward given which isn't saying there's no risk at all

There are counters and I use them but truth is that if someone just builds with a little speed and uses the decent heal that's in the kit they can likely get around the counters before you can mount an effective full burst. Only gank specs work in a high risk high reward fashion. Most other specs have more of a chance to get away than I would personally say is fair play.

So you just love the current tank/shields/heal meta. Everyone should just stand there and rock 'em sock 'em or stand in 2 lines ala 1776 infantry line warfare. Got it.

I say this as a player that has both played NB and has fought a good number nbs ranging from those that clutch on cloak and die easy to those that only used cloak for the buff and clearly didn't need it to otherwise kill me. It's just easier than it needs to be for someone that's not good to be mid tier when they should be more likely to die and encouraged to learn more of the kit in my opinion.

See there you go..."mid tier"? 90% of the people playing the game don't have a clue what you're saying when you use those terms. And you "played" a NB? As if you ever played anything other than a brawlblade. Give us a break.

Streak is countered by movement speed or a gap closer. Movement speed is a lot easier to get and use in an overall build though.

What fantasy world do you live in? Streak doesn't require you to actually target anyone and applies an UNBLOCKABLE stun to anyone it touches. There's no counter to it. Tell me you're running around in Cyrodiil on a Sorc these days w/o telling me you're running around on a Sorc. Tell me you don't hop from "meta" class to meta class every time ZOS misses something and unbalances something new with each patch. You were on Warden before the Sorc you're on now and on DK before that.

Leap is countered by it being telegraphed and blockable.

DKs can leap from a million miles away on while you're fighting someone else, so telegraphed? Perhaps in a 1v1 dueling but otherwise, not in any real practical sense. And then all they do is regen health to full seemingly immediately and then right back into another Ultimate. It takes no effort at all to play a DK in PvP "mid tier" or better as you say. Same with Warden and Sorc these days. There's zero risk other than getting zerg'd down for any of them in this current meta.

Arc shields aren't as much of a problem anymore because the more shields they have, the less damage the tend to have. I've seen some tanky procanist but these days they usually take damage now if the deal damage.

The idiotic Scribing shields are just a problem in general and add them to an Arcanist and they run around humping trees or grout endlessly and heal right through 5 people all spec'd into damage hitting them simultaneously.

You obviously live in a tower *** world where the only thing you do in Cyrodiil is "find fights" and then run around in a tower with friends for hours where you all talk to each other about silliness like "tiers" as if the game is a personal competition between you and others. Tell me I'm wrong.

Bottom line is you're arguing things from the perspective of the 1% of players who chase the meta each patch and not the 99% who have no interest in doing what you do in Cyrodiil - running into towers to Xv1 Ultidump "noobs". Rinse. Repeat. Ad nauseum. We watch you switch to a new class each time ZOS screws up the balance in the game egregiously & shake our heads.

ioResult

LadyLethalla wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

This is not a nerf. Toogle it, crouch, toogle it off. Job done 👍

I cannot uncrouch. 4 minutes after I cast the skill, if I'm standing still my magicka goes up and down like a yo yo. If I start moving it goes down like a stamina sprint drain. I don't see how this ISN'T a bug, not being able to uncrouch.

See this @ZOS_Kevin ? See this right here?

All this nonsense from ZOS about how you made Shadowy Disguise a toggle to make it easier for new and less experienced players?

We can all see from this that such a statement from ZOS is complete hogwash.

Turning this ability into a toggle is completely unintuitive and cumbersome for no good reason.

Bushido2513

ioResult wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Well exploited would be a very strong word and possibly incorrect depending on how you use it. It's not an exploit in the sense that it's a bug but it was something you could use repeatedly with ease and have a change of getting a good or great return on easily.

Also this person said no risk to equal the reward given which isn't saying there's no risk at all

There are counters and I use them but truth is that if someone just builds with a little speed and uses the decent heal that's in the kit they can likely get around the counters before you can mount an effective full burst. Only gank specs work in a high risk high reward fashion. Most other specs have more of a chance to get away than I would personally say is fair play.

So you just love the current tank/shields/heal meta. Everyone should just stand there and rock 'em sock 'em or stand in 2 lines ala 1776 infantry line warfare. Got it.

I say this as a player that has both played NB and has fought a good number nbs ranging from those that clutch on cloak and die easy to those that only used cloak for the buff and clearly didn't need it to otherwise kill me. It's just easier than it needs to be for someone that's not good to be mid tier when they should be more likely to die and encouraged to learn more of the kit in my opinion.

See there you go..."mid tier"? 90% of the people playing the game don't have a clue what you're saying when you use those terms. And you "played" a NB? As if you ever played anything other than a brawlblade. Give us a break.

Streak is countered by movement speed or a gap closer. Movement speed is a lot easier to get and use in an overall build though.

What fantasy world do you live in? Streak doesn't require you to actually target anyone and applies an UNBLOCKABLE stun to anyone it touches. There's no counter to it. Tell me you're running around in Cyrodiil on a Sorc these days w/o telling me you're running around on a Sorc. Tell me you don't hop from "meta" class to meta class every time ZOS misses something and unbalances something new with each patch. You were on Warden before the Sorc you're on now and on DK before that.

Leap is countered by it being telegraphed and blockable.

DKs can leap from a million miles away on while you're fighting someone else, so telegraphed? Perhaps in a 1v1 dueling but otherwise, not in any real practical sense. And then all they do is regen health to full seemingly immediately and then right back into another Ultimate. It takes no effort at all to play a DK in PvP "mid tier" or better as you say. Same with Warden and Sorc these days. There's zero risk other than getting zerg'd down for any of them in this current meta.

Arc shields aren't as much of a problem anymore because the more shields they have, the less damage the tend to have. I've seen some tanky procanist but these days they usually take damage now if the deal damage.

The idiotic Scribing shields are just a problem in general and add them to an Arcanist and they run around humping trees or grout endlessly and heal right through 5 people all spec'd into damage hitting them simultaneously.

You obviously live in a tower *** world where the only thing you do in Cyrodiil is "find fights" and then run around in a tower with friends for hours where you all talk to each other about silliness like "tiers" as if the game is a personal competition between you and others. Tell me I'm wrong.

Bottom line is you're arguing things from the perspective of the 1% of players who chase the meta each patch and not the 99% who have no interest in doing what you do in Cyrodiil - running into towers to Xv1 Ultidump "noobs". Rinse. Repeat. Ad nauseum. We watch you switch to a new class each time ZOS screws up the balance in the game egregiously & shake our heads.

You are as far off the mark as it gets with me. You're confusing what I'm saying from years of experience playing the game with me saying I play the game that way.

Tiers is just a general statement. To put it another way in pvp you have those that die easily, those that put up a fight and sometimes win, and those that often win. It's really more of a math thing because even if we can't see it we all have KD ratios.

Now here's where you're getting me wrong. I don't think I'm in the elite crop of anything. Yes I have a good KD ratio in most formats I play in and I have videos to back that up. At the same time there are players that can reliably kill me and I'm cool with that. I play the game because it's fun to vs other people not because it gives me an inflated sense of ego or compensates for power I wish I had in life.

That's why I argue for a balanced game that provides fair opportunities to beat and be beaten.

For nb I played bow gank, brawler, and melee gank, and bomber. I have 19 characters now with at least two of each class with all skills fully leveled because over the years I wanted to try everything. Sorc ended up being my main but I've tried all classes as healers, tanks, bombers, brawlers, gankers, etc. I've done s good amount of pve and do so on occasion but for many years now pvp has been my default.

So I don't meta hop, my sorc is actually my only 5 star and I did that mostly with no boosting pots till I was on star 3 I think. I actually have been playing sorc long before it was good in this patch and have just preferred it over any class.

I'm pretty mobile and somewhat tanky and I have been chased down and wrecked by non sorc classes enough times to say a gap closer isn't needed lol. Believe it if you want, look at @StaticWave videos but yeah you can chase a sorc down if you build for it just a bit. The only way I have been able to make sure someone can't catch me that's good is to back away at the edge of their range as soon as they come towards me. Again believe what you will but there's several videos on that subject.

So when I get leaped by a DK my position is locked for a second. By default when my character is no longer under my control I let off a quick block. Doesn't always work but it works enough that I don't always find myself eating stuns or damage more than I care to tolerate.

Yes the get a shield and resources but I think of it as ult and counter ult. That's where poison and such comes in. Some fights you just can't win and that's frustrating but it's just part of the game design overall so we can only hope ZOS continues to balance but in better ways. I'm not a fan of long drawn out fights that are boring but in this game you just have to find other targets sometimes.

I'm actually solo most of the time and don't really care to group unless it's with more casual players that just happen to be good players. For me it's not too fun to sit around saying you have to wear this set or run this skill so we can be a comp group.

I prefer to just go run around and try to get kills and try random off meta builds. I don't even own the chapter for scribing. Most sorcs that use meta and or scribing usually either stalemate or kill me but I'm fine with that since I'm playing what makes me happy.

I used to be more into going for 1vx but lately I just haven't had the interest to put in the time and the game has just moved away from being as 1vx friendly which I'm totally ok with.

Anyway I definitely don't need to cripple NB for me to enjoy the game. I don't support the toggle implementation but I do think NB and some other classes needed balance passes and I'm curious to see how the game looks after this change.