The change of NB cloak will totally change this class, most fun part gone,

MincMincMinc

Muizer wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Replication wise you would only be able to see yourself as cloaked if the server said you could cloak. These calcs are done on the server first before your client can continue. The only aspects of the game that would be driven clientside are your general locomotion, block, sprint, roll, light and heavy attack(this is why there are desyncs with light>medium attacks because the client says you hit with a light attack, but the server had a 0.001s delay and thought a medium attack happened.

I don't think that's the scenario I mentioned though? Where something has pulled you out of cloak, but your client has not yet been updated to reflect it.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

If you need help knowing whether you are cloaked, there are plenty of addons to track it.

That thought has occurred to me. That now I will need an add-on to track it. So much for making the skill more accessible.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Designing functionality around 1% of pvp gameplay under a maybe scenario on spam players for the rest of the game is not a solid plan.

I'm not sure this will only affect PvP. But apart from that, making button presses idempotent or as close to it as possible would seem to be a very important consideration when latency is involved. So yeah where toggle changes are concerned, the client should be leading and it should communicate "set toggle to 0" or "set toggle to 1". But I'm not sure that is how toggles are implemented in ESO. If they send "set toggle to opposite of current" that's evidently not lag proof.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

EDIT: Have you logged in pts and tried it yet? Functionally it feels great for weaving and for short stealth stints it saves you from recast overlap/bar swap issues. It is much less tedious/clunky to backbar.

I've only tried it under 'light load' PvE situations, where it may be fractionally easier to handle. For heavy load I'll have to wait until I can try it on the copy of my fully leveled character.

I and any of my group have never seen or experienced cloak desync. Feel free to document this happening if you think you have a case. Go into greyhost Primetime with a friend on another faction. Go record each other cloaking and pulling out of cloak. Put the recordings side by side and show us that these instances happen. Who knows, you may find things that pull you out of cloak when they shouldn't.

The ingame skill timer and two bars work well btw and show a banner around the skill when cloaked. They are definitely more reliable than addons IMO

Considering how cheap they are with the pts server performance, you should try some bgs or duels with it. Granted theres no way to really replicate the primetime greyhost type of server clogging on pts. Maybe get a zerg of people to get in pts and spam healing springs like the old days.

IDK Ive talked to players that solo, 1vX, smallman and they cant complain. I also see no issues with the toggle that outweigh the QOL. I do see MASSIVE glaring issues with the mag regen cut and think it should instead just have a 3500 initial cost with a 40% ramp per 2s tick. (a 30k mag pool will last you about 10s without factoring in cost reductions and regen)

Joy_Division

ShadowProc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@ioResult

I quite literally tested in on PTS before commenting. Perma cloak is 100% possible.

Maybe you should test it before commenting? Or maybe you should increase your game knowledge? Took me 30 seconds to come up with a viable option. And I don't even main a NB.

You know who this change won't affect?

GANKERS

If you knew anything about playing Nightblade in PvP, you'd know that the Nightblades who use cloak the LEAST are gankers, ESPECIALLY ranged gankers.

They'll just sit there as they do today, crouched, using ZERO Cloaks until you come across their path. When you do, they'll group gank you as they do today and then just toggle that cloak on with one button press and get away.

If you think there will be LESS ranged gankers out there because of this change you couldn't be more wrong.

There will be more because its easier to ranged gank with this change - they'll have full Mag pools to just toggle Cloak on with one button press and still run away from you.

It's Nightblades who actually fight you and aren't running around in a Rallying Crutch build who are affected by this change.

So when you get ganked more often as a result of this and the Nightblades who have been fighting you just go back to ranged ganking and then new Nightblades come into Cyrodiil to try the easier ranged ganking meta, don't come on these forums crying because YOU'VE BEEN WARNED. Cyrodiil will be filled with ranged gankblades as a result of this change. Bet on it.

Disagree.

It absolutely will affect gankers.

It is true that gankers do not rely on spamming cloak to execute ganks. I would agree that these changes will not inconvenience their attacks.

And that's fine. While gankers are annoying (and a big reason PvP is pretty brutal to new players), the reality for me (and I would assume most experienced players, certainly those better than me) is that most of the time they fail to get a quick kill. I'm not saying they dont ever get me. Some are quite good and succeed. But it's not like they a boogieman who have me in fear whenever I leave a keep. It's after the failed gank where these changes will very much affect them. They will find it more resource intensive to avoid getting killed by a retaliating player. Which I don;t see as a problem. Ganker has a surprise attack, able to strike first. If they fail, the consequences should be difficult to avoid. It won;t affect gankers offense (which is not being mentioned in all these "NB are dead" threads). They can still do what they do. It's the margin for error is narrowing and consequences for failing is getting higher and that's not a bad thing.

As far as the part about Nightblades that "actually fight," I don;t agree with your categorization. I might not like ganking, but it certainly is a legal form of fighting. They are certainly trying to kill me and certainly fighting me (and the game certainly thinks so as I am kept in combat for 5 minutes afterward).

It must be nice to main a class that does not have to run around relying on a "Rallying Crutch" build. It is true those NBs who don't use a meta build will be affected the most. But, that's ten years of ESO. When a class gets so strong that it can ignore the meta everyone has to run, their abilities have historically gotten nerfed and they have had to adjust. Sorcerers right now are in the same boat. They can ignore some defenses that other classes need because Ward is so strong. Zos is trying to reign that in. We'll see how that unfolds in the next update. I get it. A class defining skill that allowed for unique builds is getting nerfed and people aren;t happy about it. That's an annual occurrence in ESO. nothing new here.

OK, we are warned that more NBs will try to gank us. Like that already is happening all the time. At least now, it will be easier to make them pay if they fail.

Another pointing out with his last sentence this is a nerf for convenience of 1vxers. Great. Let’s care more about making it easier for the tank builds to kill the builds that are sacrificing way more to be able to kill stuff. Cool

ZOS is about an anti-1vX as a company can be. ZOS's objective is to make things a little easier for the average players who get deleted by a class that has spent more time in S tier than any other in the game.

Tommy_The_Gun

fred4 wrote: »

Starting with the tangent that most likely prompted you to talk about this, I've read that detection potions don't cancel Cloak on the PTS. Is this true? In response to other posts, not this one, this is IMO normal and I don't have an issue with it. Detection potions do not uncloak you on live either. Only the player running the potion can see you, not others.

I am not sure about that. I think if one person runs detection potions, if an invisible enemy is detected, then it works exactly the same like with every detection skill - stealth/invisibility is disabled and every one can see that player, even if only one player in a group uses detection potions. The only substantial difference is that unlike with detection skills, that have "an eye icon" over players who have those skills up, detection potion don't so there is no "feedback" who has detection potion active.

That is why Detection potions are so powerful counter. Not only there is close to no way to tell who is using those potions, but also you can make various types of those potion that aside from detection will for example restore stamina etc, so potion cooldown is not completely wasted.

As I have mentioned in my "wall of text" post, on live server, Detection potions do cancel out cloak even if it was casted split second ago. On PTS, since Detection potions were never meant to cancel out "toggle-able" skill, it is not fully toggeld off.

fred4

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Starting with the tangent that most likely prompted you to talk about this, I've read that detection potions don't cancel Cloak on the PTS. Is this true? In response to other posts, not this one, this is IMO normal and I don't have an issue with it. Detection potions do not uncloak you on live either. Only the player running the potion can see you, not others.

I am not sure about that. I think if one person runs detection potions, if an invisible enemy is detected, then it works exactly the same like with every detection skill - stealth/invisibility is disabled and every one can see that player, even if only one player in a group uses detection potions.

We're on the same side of the debate, but let me stop you right there. You're wrong. I'd be lying if I said I tested this beyond all reasonable doubt, but I play a perma-cloaking NB as you know. Not crouch and not 10x in a row, but cloaking forever. The blue orb above your head means your stealth is disabled. You literally can't cast cloak. Detection potions are much longer range than the skills that do that, but they do not disable your stealth. They're just devastating, because of the range, because you can't tell you're being detected, and because when you're attacked you will be forcefully uncloaked, then. Devastating especially when you get streaked and also stunned, which gives other opponents time to catch up.

My own default potion is a detection potion. As an aside, in case you find that strange, I typically open with a gank and I get the Major Sorcery only from the potion in that case. I just settled on that potion permanently. I'm also a nightblade hunting other nightblades. If my potion made those visible to others, my faction mates would regularly follow me and go after them too, but they don't. I'm typically not grouped and not on Discord, so they don't. They only see me running off ... after the bomber that just bombed them for example. They don't see the opposing nightblade and the target is not engaged until I Incap them from stealth. This is really different than if I was a sorc. The latter exposes the nightblade constantly, because that's what Streak does. This can make it difficult to tell why you're being exposed and countered so hard, cause it all happens hand in hand, all within one second. It's sorcs streaking you above all else, but other (ranged) classes can equally keep you exposed. A DK may just leap you. Leap is also a CC. That's what subsequently kills you. Not even so much the damage of one Leap (with the Esoteric Greaves at least), but the CCs, the Arcanist roots (Flail), and stuff like Acid Spray or Bombard spam. Once you have players on you that actually know their anti-NB toolkit well, all it takes is a single moment of visibility in the wrong place at the wrong time. For those that don't believe me, bear in mind I frequently play in melee range, so that's what I'm talking about. I'm not a 40m away bow ganker.

Of course there are times when players are less experienced or disorganised. During those times, Cloak can work wonders. I'm personally also just fast enough, and I LoS like every class, that I can push the limits of Cloak. Not when people know what they're doing, but it's their experience and organisation that actually kills you, I'm sure.

As I have mentioned in my "wall of text" post, on live server, Detection potions do cancel out cloak even if it was casted split second ago.

No, they don't. That's a misconception. They make it possible to see the NB, despite the fact that they're cloaking and are invisible to everyone else, including NPCs.. They don't actively cancel or interfere with Cloak at all. They merely render Cloak's effect useless against the (single) player who has quaffed the potion. They also make it possible for that (single) player to hit the NB with single target attacks.

MincMincMinc

Two paths forward on this topic

1. Either they change invis detect pots to uncloak and prevent invis within the area (area size should match other sizes 12-20m)
2. Invis pots should only allow the drinker to see stealthed enemies within 40m range. This would not untoggle cloak as the NB does not know who drank what potions. The way the NB would know is when someone is beelining straight for them as if they can see them....

IMO I would prefer the second option so instead of XX number of players seeing me, it is only the one enemy that wasted their pot for it. Could you provide an animation on the detect pot enemy for clarity, I dont see why they cant just copy the magelight animation and make it noticeable.

fred4

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Two paths forward on this topic

1. Either they change invis detect pots to uncloak and prevent invis within the area (area size should match other sizes 12-20m)
2. Invis pots should only allow the drinker to see stealthed enemies within 40m range. This would not untoggle cloak as the NB does not know who drank what potions. The way the NB would know is when someone is beelining straight for them as if they can see them....

IMO I would prefer the second option so instead of XX number of players seeing me, it is only the one enemy that wasted their pot for it. Could you provide an animation on the detect pot enemy for clarity, I dont see why they cant just copy the magelight animation and make it noticeable.

40m is far too long IMO. Why are you even suggesting it when there is already a Cloak change on the table that is arguably an overall nerf?

The sizes of the detection skills are 8m-12m, by the way, with Radiant Magelight being the 12m one.

As regards the eye, as a heavily cloaking NB myself, I can understand where you're coming from, but I think the eye currently has a specific function. It tells you: Don't go near or you will be actively uncloaked and prevented from cloaking, e.g. not like what a potion does. Same when you see that light on NPCs, such as in IC.

Detection potions honestly work both ways for me, I'll be open about that. They are, by far, the best way to go after (another) nightblade and actually kill them, short of the Sentry set. They work precisely because they are so nasty, but you do get a feel for when someone uses them against you too. I basically see this as just L2P for the NB. Not everything needs to be standardised and work the same way. From a historical perspective, those potions used to last longer, by the way. They've also already had a balance pass on them, albeit long ago.

Tommy_The_Gun

@fred4
From my experience, If I am playing a NB or Vamp & I am invisible or in crouch stealth, If I am detected by a detection skill, then I know who is using this skill as I can see that player running around with an "eye" icon above them & I can tell that they detected my. You can not have detection skill active & remain hidden yourself.

If I am detected by "nothing" (I am invisible or in crouch stealth & all of the sudden blue orb appears above & forces de-cloak/un-stelath), but there is no player to be found, then I was detected by detection potion user who is either in stealth (you can use detection potion, but remain hidden yourself) or they are far away, but within like 40 meters.

Hence, why I do think that those 2 work pretty much the same, with Detection Potion being an "opening a safe with an atom bomb" type of counter for any form of stealth, whenever it is invisibility or crouch stealth.

Also one thing. With "cast-able" cloak, you have full controll over invisiblity. If you have been detected & you cast cloak hoping that it will work - then you just waste your magicka and it is pretty much your fault.

With "toggle-able" cloak you actuall have less controll over it and in an event of a detection, it is extremely clunky & it is more or less pure luck if you can manually "turn cloak off" before it automatically drains your mag to 0 (especially if you have cloak on other bar).

In my "way too long" post I tired to explained that everything that interacts with stealth, was always "tuned" to work on "cast-able" cloak. With togge-able one, it just becomes way too messy. Detection potion imho should simply toggle cloak off, that is it. It would just feel overall better.

MincMincMinc

fred4 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Two paths forward on this topic

1. Either they change invis detect pots to uncloak and prevent invis within the area (area size should match other sizes 12-20m)
2. Invis pots should only allow the drinker to see stealthed enemies within 40m range. This would not untoggle cloak as the NB does not know who drank what potions. The way the NB would know is when someone is beelining straight for them as if they can see them....

IMO I would prefer the second option so instead of XX number of players seeing me, it is only the one enemy that wasted their pot for it. Could you provide an animation on the detect pot enemy for clarity, I dont see why they cant just copy the magelight animation and make it noticeable.

40m is far too long IMO. Why are you even suggesting it when there is already a Cloak change on the table that is arguably an overall nerf?

The sizes of the detection skills are 8m-12m, by the way, with Radiant Magelight being the 12m one.

As regards the eye, as a heavily cloaking NB myself, I can understand where you're coming from, but I think the eye currently has a specific function. It tells you: Don't go near or you will be actively uncloaked and prevented from cloaking, e.g. not like what a potion does. Same when you see that light on NPCs, such as in IC.

Detection potions honestly work both ways for me, I'll be open about that. They are, by far, the best way to go after (another) nightblade and actually kill them, short of the Sentry set. They work precisely because they are so nasty, but you do get a feel for when someone uses them against you too. I basically see this as just L2P for the NB. Not everything needs to be standardised and work the same way. From a historical perspective, those potions used to last longer, by the way. They've also already had a balance pass on them, albeit long ago.

Yeah the 40m could be toned down considering that covers basically entire keeps. The way it should be standardized is to take your standard gap closer range + a few meters.

the ~20m was in regards to flare's range (28m+10m) just from the nature of how ground casting actually functions, those really far ranges are highly innacurate or dont cast.

Not the eye, but your ability bar has a border animation around it showing that cloak is active. I can get a pic of it later tonight if you cant get on pts

Tommy_The_Gun

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Yeah the 40m could be toned down considering that covers basically entire keeps. The way it should be standardized is to take your standard gap closer range + a few meters.

the ~20m was in regards to flare's range (28m+10m) just from the nature of how ground casting actually functions, those really far ranges are highly innacurate or dont cast.

Not the eye, but your ability bar has a border animation around it showing that cloak is active. I can get a pic of it later tonight if you cant get on pts

The biggest issue imho is not the range, but total lack of feedback. Detection potions could be converted to work in a way like Piercing Mark (only the user of the potion can see invisible players), but also every one who is invisible/stealth and within the potion range and is detected by some one, should at least get some "feedback" that "some one knows about your presence", but it would still be impossible to know who. That way, I can understand if cloak would still be active & you will be invisible for everybody else. But again - some form of "feedback" that some one is using detection potion near you would be nice.

MincMincMinc

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

@fred4
Also one thing. With "cast-able" cloak, you have full controll over invisiblity. If you have been detected & you cast cloak hoping that it will work - then you just waste your magicka and it is pretty much your fault.

With "toggle-able" cloak you actuall have less controll over it and in an event of a detection, it is extremely clunky & it is more or less pure luck if you can manually "turn cloak off" before it automatically drains your mag to 0 (especially if you have cloak on other bar).

In my "way too long" post I tired to explained that everything that interacts with stealth, was always "tuned" to work on "cast-able" cloak. With togge-able one, it just becomes way too messy. Detection potion imho should simply toggle cloak off, that is it. It would just feel overall better.

The toggle should turn off when actually detected. Even so, how is it clunky to turn off? Ahead of time you could sprint...turns off. You could roll dodge. You could attack. You could untoggle even.

Detect pots untoggling your stealth would be terrible unless they purely became a copy and paste of magelight. Detect pots should only allow the drinker to SEE invis players, not DETECT them. This benefits the NB who is invis to XX amounts of other players even though they are SEEN by the one player. While skill and situational awareness is up to the NB on whether someone is actively running at them spamming skills to attack them.

fred4

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

You can not have detection skill active & remain hidden yourself.

I'm afraid this is wrong. Casting a detection skill will uncloak you like most skills do. However you may then recloak while that skill keeps ticking for 5 or 7 seconds. If an opposing player does this and they subsequently run past you, they will uncloak you, but you didn't see them coming. Them detecting you will probably knock them out of cloak as well, I'm not too sure on that nuance, but basically they'll get the jump on you.

If I am detected by "nothing" (I am invisible or in crouch stealth & all of the sudden blue orb appears above & forces de-cloak/un-stelath), but there is no player to be found, then I was detected by detection potion user who is either in stealth (you can use detection potion, but remain hidden yourself) or they are far away, but within like 40 meters.

Sorry, wrong on many levels. If the blue orb appears, you were detected by a detection skill. That skill and only such a skill, not a detection potion, caused the blue orb to appear. The orb is an indication that you are subsequently prevented from recloaking for 4 seconds, e.g. while the orb lasts.

The detection skills that do this only have a range of 8m (Inner Light, Hunter) or 12m (Radiant Magelight). In other words, the enemy is near. They cannot be 40m away. They may have been running a detection skill and recloaked.

Detection potions do not cause the blue orb. They do not prevent you from cloaking. You do not see another nightblade using a detection potion coming at all. They will just burst you from out of nowhere, although you may possibly hear them cloaking on their approach.

Hence, why I do think that those 2 work pretty much the same

They do not.

• Detection skills pulse every second in an 8m or 12m radius around the player running that skill. They will do so for 5 seconds in case of Hunter and 7 seconds in case of Magelight (actual in-game live tooltips, not outdated web info). These skills will forcefully uncloak you when you are hit with one of their invisible pulses. If you brush past the other player at a marginal distance, that may happen inbetween two pulses and the detection skill may "miss". Once you do get detected, however, you are knocked out of cloak, visible to all, have the blue orb, and are prevented from recloaking for 4 seconds.
• Detection potions don't pulse. They don't knock NBs out of stealth. They just flat out ignore invisibility within a certain range. The target can keep cloaking and they are technically still cloaked. The potion does not cause blue orbs. The potion user can just simply see the NB and attack them with all types of attacks, despite them cloaking. Furthermore, the range of the potion currently says 43.5m, but that ain't it. That is only the technical value against crouching players - another reason why I have drawn such a distinction between cloaking and crouching in my posts. This is the part I'm not 100% on, but the range of those potions was adjusted from something like 28m to 43.5m in a relatively recent patch. However, as far as I know and from the feel as a perma-cloaking magblade, the actual range of the potion against cloaking players remained the same, despite the very confusing tooltip and consternation in the forums at the time. Basically, as far as I understand it, cloaking seems to give you a negative detection radius internally within the game engine. Adding the 43.5m detection potion range lands you back at the ~28m effective detection range those potions historically had (or whatever the historical value was).
• The Sentry set is still another matter. It shares the mechanics of detection potions, but as far as I know the detection range is unlimited. In practice this means it is limited by the draw distance of the game and, therefore, possibly your graphics settings. So after all of this, can you be spotted from 40m away in Cloak? Yes, but only with the Sentry set. I should know. I have encountered it from players at Arrius Lumber while I came - cloaking - down the stairs from the keep.

Also one thing. With "cast-able" cloak, you have full controll over invisiblity. If you have been detected & you cast cloak hoping that it will work - then you just waste your magicka and it is pretty much your fault.

That appears to go for both live and PTS, though, as long as everything that currently knocks you out of cloak, including combat, still knocks you out of cloak. Heck, as long as certain skills, such as the self-heal, still knock you out of cloak, that saves you having to actually cancel cloak, because most other skills will do it for you. If it works that way.

With "toggle-able" cloak you actuall have less controll over it and in an event of a detection, it is extremely clunky & it is more or less pure luck if you can manually "turn cloak off" before it automatically drains your mag to 0 (especially if you have cloak on other bar).

I would have a problem with that too, but I have not been on the PTS. Other people in this thread are saying they have been and this is not the way it works.

In my "way too long" post I tired to explained that everything that interacts with stealth, was always "tuned" to work on "cast-able" cloak.

I get that point in principle. As a dev, you have to be careful. However I couldn't think of any actual ways the historical tuning of Cloak would matter much in this case, just so long as lots of things still knock you out of cloak.

Detection potion imho should simply toggle cloak off, that is it. It would just feel overall better.

But it is precisely the detection potions (and Sentry) that are the execeptions. This is not new. You can very easily burn your magicka due to inexperience on live, when playing against a potion user. Just so long as a heal or facing them in combat automatically turns cloak and it's magicka drain off, I really see no major difference to live. The proof of the pudding will be going on the PTS.

Durham

Shadowasrial wrote: »

This is possibly the worst change for Nb ever. Everyone wants to dump on nd cloak as saying it’s overpowered but fail to realize that nb kit has never had super strong heals that were meant for sustained fights. (Yes you have other skill lines but they require you to use weapons that conflict with the weapons primarily used for damage thus nerfing your dps output.) but I’m talking strictly the nb skill lines. We have no real good heal. So cloak was a way to give our healing a chance to tick, as well as escape and redirect the fight by either reengaging or disengaging depending on whether we could take on said opponent. On top of that our primary damage dealing ultimate is trash compared to every other classes primary damage dealing ultimate. (Easily missed, easily blocked, minimal range, and no real ability to apply pressure to the target when cast. So many of the other classes ultimates are undodgable, unblockable, have a serious damage over time in addition to the hard hitting initial damage (the pressure I was speaking of) and still buff the player or greatly debuff the target. Look at dragon leap. Does a ton of damage, has huge range, flings you into the air is undodgable applies a stun after the fact your knocked back as well. Or they get a damage shield for the other morph.
So now you want to turn our only way to effectively line up an effective burst combo with our ultimate into a toggle ability. Which will more than likely still be negated by casting other skills and broken by others damage. On top of that our magic recovery is disabled.
Thanks I just might quit eso now if this goes live. I only play nb and have for 10 years. And I can tell you this will gut nb and kill any chance for a stealthy strike from shadows form of gameplay in PvP

"kit has never had super strong heals that were meant for sustained fights."
Night blades have the strongest heals in the game because of Crit. My highest burst heals are from my NB hands down. Nightblades make some of the best healers these days! I would agree in the past when Night blades heals were lacking cloak was much more important then, but not now. Crit healing is insane.

"Look at dragon leap"
You will still have the have the highest burst combo in the game, and it will be up much more than leap!

"So now you want to turn our only way to effectively line up an effective burst combo "
You can still line it up nothing stopping you.

ksbrugh

colossalvoids wrote: »

So people wanted cloak gone finally got it, but we're still having cast times, longer ability travel times and overall nerfed kit to accompany it. I'm kinda happy to know the last class with some little identity left is finally "updated" to their modern standards in full, so can quit crutching on a thought that it would be my main gama one day again lol.

Now imagine if every class had their major resolve on a toggle lol that's basically what's just been done to nightblade. Especially if you're a one bar bill.

Tommy_The_Gun

ksbrugh wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

So people wanted cloak gone finally got it, but we're still having cast times, longer ability travel times and overall nerfed kit to accompany it. I'm kinda happy to know the last class with some little identity left is finally "updated" to their modern standards in full, so can quit crutching on a thought that it would be my main gama one day again lol.

Now imagine if every class had their major resolve on a toggle lol that's basically what's just been done to nightblade. Especially if you're a one bar bill.

Shadow Barrier procs from every cast of any shadow ability, and is not "up" for the how long cloak will be toggled on. This passive has its own duration. After Veiled Strike was moved to Assassination, NBs tend to have significantly lower uptime on resolve, with only exception being PvE DPS (especially mag DPS) as they use Twisting Path in their rotation. Cloak becoming a toggle will also lower major resolve uptime even more, as NB won't be casting cloak every 3 seconds, so that Shadow Barrier won't be proced.

So, previously, if a NB left stealth in a ganking attack, they not only had casted cloak a moment ago, procing the major resolve, but also they were procing major resolve every time they used their spamable (Veiled Strike).

So, just like NB got to the A+ or S tier with lots of small & minor buffs that stacked over time, I see now the reversal. Small & minor nerfs that will stack & class will go down a tier.

bladenick

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

Funny how the cloak change will not affect any NBs but we have players desperate in this thread.

It will affect every NB that uses Shadowy Disguise morph... but not in the way everyone is thinking about.

Any build focus only mag recover to sustain cloak will failed

Any melee dps build use cloak for survival, no way to do this as even release incap from stealth approaching become hardcore, conceal weapon from stealth? Luxury. This playstyle unplayable

Any range mag build relied on cloak for survival, way more difficult to manage resorce, mostly unplayable

Stem range ganker still get room to manage, and keep this play style, may benefit as it don’t build mag recover, after change it cost less for them

Mag tank build use 2nd shadow cloak morph get no impact, and shall be the only NB dare to fight in melee

StaticWave

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

Tommy_The_Gun

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

It takes 7 Nbs to take down 1 sorc on average ? Is this how we should read that O.o XD

Edit:
Also, funny how Tarnished is doing like 22% of dmg.... XD Clearly Nb's cloak is the issue lol

And yes, people should be able to express their opinion in eso forum without being targeted in game for having different opinions. That is the sad part, but the rest is funny XD

Aurielle

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

So sad. Grow up, guys. Someone should be able to express an opinion in a forum without being targeted in game for that opinion. This is precisely the reason why my forum username and my in-game name are different.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

It takes 7 Nbs to take down 1 sorc on average ? Is this how we should read that O.o XD

Edit:
Also, funny how Tarnished is doing like 22% of dmg.... XD Clearly Nb's cloak is the issue lol

Way to miss the point. This is targeted harassment based on an opinion expressed in a forum — it’s not demonstrating that it “takes 7 Nbs to take down 1 sorc on average.”

BlueRaven

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

It’s the community that is scaring away players from PvP, not cloak. Case in point, this post.

Aurielle wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

This is precisely the reason why my forum username and my in-game name are different.

Ditto.

ShadowProc

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

[Edited to remove image for Naming]

It takes 7 Nbs to take down 1 sorc on average ? Is this how we should read that O.o XD

Edit:
Also, funny how Tarnished is doing like 22% of dmg.... XD Clearly Nb's cloak is the issue lol

And yes, people should be able to express their opinion in eso forum without being targeted in game for having different opinions. That is the sad part, but the rest is funny XD

Exactly. But his stance is you shouldn’t be able to get away if you fail bash your head on his shield. He shouldn’t have to use the 50 counters to cloak in the game. You should get a snare on you as well to help 1vx you.

deadpool3431

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

Its the only defense nightblade has that doesn't require running armor cap or losing damage. Sorcs are the most obnoxious class in the game by far. They play on easy mode now and still whine about nightblades. from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken? It wasn't skill. It doesn't take skill to run circles around a tree spamming a heal/shield while everyone else's skills don't hit you. You dislike nightblades because the experienced ones know when to hit you. That's why you see it in your recap so often. You actively choose not to use the tools the game gives you to counter stealth because if you did you wouldn't be able to use your own broken class mechanics. Instead you come here to complain. Idgaf if this gets me banned from the forums btw so go ahead and report it. I'm done with this game after U44.

CameraBeardThePirate

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

Its the only defense nightblade has that doesn't require running armor cap or losing damage. Sorcs are the most obnoxious class in the game by far. They play on easy mode now and still whine about nightblades. from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken? It wasn't skill. It doesn't take skill to run circles around a tree spamming a heal/shield while everyone else's skills don't hit you. You dislike nightblades because the experienced ones know when to hit you. That's why you see it in your recap so often. You actively choose not to use the tools the game gives you to counter stealth because if you did you wouldn't be able to use your own broken class mechanics. Instead you come here to complain. Idgaf if this gets me banned from the forums btw so go ahead and report it. I'm done with this game after U44.

Only defense Nightblade has? Yes let's completely ignore the fact that they have one of the best burst heals in the game, one of the best HoTs in the game, a skill that gives cheap dodge rolls, both Major and Minor Expedition, and both Major and Minor Cowardice (one of which is sourced by the second best stun in the game). None of those require running armor cap or losing damage. In fact, their heals get better the more damage they have, unlike classes such as Warden or Arcanist.

Aurielle

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken?

My take-away from that screenshot was that seven NB mains ganged up on a player (after recognizing his forum username) and then sent him toxic hate tells when they killed him, simply because they don’t like what he has to say about Cloak in the forums. This is not the same thing as “it took a zerg to kill you.”

Galeriano2

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

Its the only defense nightblade has that doesn't require running armor cap or losing damage. Sorcs are the most obnoxious class in the game by far. They play on easy mode now and still whine about nightblades. from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken? It wasn't skill. It doesn't take skill to run circles around a tree spamming a heal/shield while everyone else's skills don't hit you. You dislike nightblades because the experienced ones know when to hit you. That's why you see it in your recap so often. You actively choose not to use the tools the game gives you to counter stealth because if you did you wouldn't be able to use your own broken class mechanics. Instead you come here to complain. Idgaf if this gets me banned from the forums btw so go ahead and report it. I'm done with this game after U44.

Only defense Nightblade has? Yes let's completely ignore the fact that they have one of the best burst heals in the game, one of the best HoTs in the game, a skill that gives cheap dodge rolls, both Major and Minor Expedition, and both Major and Minor Cowardice (one of which is sourced by the second best stun in the game). None of those require running armor cap or losing damage. In fact, their heals get better the more damage they have, unlike classes such as Warden or Arcanist.

Lets also add to it the only class source of major evasion on the same ability that grants immunity to snares and immobilizes and gives cheaper dodge rolls, major resolve being on a passive and ability to just teleport back to previously marked point with shade which also applies minor maim. Yeah definietly a class lacking sources of defense other than cloak...

necro_the_crafter

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

[snip]

Alright here we go:

1. Burst heal mentioned is healthy offering, so u can have it with cloak.
2. Hot mentioned is refreshing path, doesnt drain any health, also grants major expo, while concealed add minor.
3. Fantasmal Escape is snare immunity, no need to run RaT other then for minor force.
4. There is no worst cc then FG fear, go and try hit on thargets tham actually move and not AFK.NBs fear is the best fear in the game, FG, necros and vamp are super clunky and unreliable.
5. Wow shade really does require skill, unlike cloack that is no brain one button escape.
6. Power extraction isnt a PvE morph, its single sourse in the entire game of minor courage put on skill while all others are 5pc sets.

Other skills isnt pain to use, they reqire a bit of tactical and strategical thinking. NB is good, and changes to cloak wont do anything to class power and popularity in pvp. And yeah there is no stamima and magika nb(or any other class, except for mana sorcs) You either stam leaning hybrid or mana leaning hybrid, depending on yours skill setup, either way you build for hybrid sustain in any optimised build. So yeah, only one pain point of new cloak is its mana cost, and should be adressed, any other arguments like server lags making toggles inconvinient, or that nb has no other defense tools would be ignored i hope.

[edited to remove quote]

Turtle_Bot

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

[snip]

I have to ask, but have you played NB at all in the past 3 years? I get that nobody likes to see their favourite class receive nerfs, but come on, every single one of your "details" has glaring mistakes and/or is completely wrong.

1. Offering (the burst heal) is NOT the other morph of shadowy disguise, that is dark cloak which is a heal over time that scales off max health. The burst heal is a completely different skill to cloak so NB gets to have BOTH at the same time.

2. The heal over time abilities, Dark cloak/refreshing path do NOT drain your health, that is Offering that does that as part of its cost and it's health drain is so minimal and easy to completely ignore if you have siphoning strikes (either morph) slotted on either bar.

3. Concealed weapon gives MINOR! expedition, NOT Major. Minor expedition is MUCH harder to come by outside of scribing than Major is and concealed gives it for free on EITHER bar. No other class has this, not even sorc that has to actively use hurricane, costing resources, to get minor expedition which has a duration.

4. FG fear is much worse than NB fear. NB fear inflicts MAJOR cowardice, that is such a rare debuff currently whereas Turn Evil gives minor protection and minor endurance, both of which are already easily available for a lot of (if not all of) the classes, including NB. This also doesn't take into account that Mass hysteria has an additional meter of AoE over turn evil, making it easier to land.

5. Power extraction is not a PvE morph, it is insanely strong in PvP. It's AoE so it reveals invis enemies, it grants Major Brutality/Sorcery AND Minor Courage as well as inflicting Minor cowardice. This skill alone has the biggest weapon/spell damage stat swing of ANY skill in the game currently and it's a spammable AoE on par with whirling blades on top of that.

6. The roll dodge cost reduction is a FREE BONUS effect on blur, blur is already such a strong skill, especially phantasmal escape morph because it is castable while invis and it grants MAJOR evasion AND snare immunity/cleanse. Major evasion is still a very rare buff that is currently a very strong source of mitigation.


As for NB requiring a lot of GCDs for its defense, how is this different from any other class/build (outside of specifically max mag wardsorc). Every other class (including sorcs that don't use ward, yes we exist) need to stack up multiple HoTs, their burst heal, roll dodge, block, LoS etc. but none of those other classes have cloak or shade on top of all of that nor does any other get their Major Resolve buff for free as a passive meaning those classes all have 1 more button push for their defensive rotations than NB has.

The only difficulty with shade is ensuring it's maintained and having some tiny awareness that there aren't 20 enemies camping it ready to punish the teleport. For that "difficulty" shade not only comes with a teleport that ignores LoS/walls/verticality, but also a free DoT + minor maim for free 5% mitigation.

P.s. this is from someone who has been playing a lot of NB lately (not just brawler blade) and who also took the 2 minutes it takes to ensure correct information by double checking the class on the build editor that shows every single skill.

[edited to remove quote]

Galeriano2

deadpool3431 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is the single most annoying and obnoxious class in the game. I can’t count how many times a NB in full dmg gear hits me with Snipe and 3 procs from max range, only to immediately run away in Cloak when I chase after him. Detect potions can’t do much either if you are getting hit from multiple directions by multiple proc NBs.

Cloak needed this nerf. It was long overdue. Now NBs who crutched on Cloak will actually need to adapt and improve instead of relying on this single skill as their defense.

Its the only defense nightblade has that doesn't require running armor cap or losing damage. Sorcs are the most obnoxious class in the game by far. They play on easy mode now and still whine about nightblades. from what I understand it took a zerg to kill you earlier. How is that not completely broken? It wasn't skill. It doesn't take skill to run circles around a tree spamming a heal/shield while everyone else's skills don't hit you. You dislike nightblades because the experienced ones know when to hit you. That's why you see it in your recap so often. You actively choose not to use the tools the game gives you to counter stealth because if you did you wouldn't be able to use your own broken class mechanics. Instead you come here to complain. Idgaf if this gets me banned from the forums btw so go ahead and report it. I'm done with this game after U44.

No it's not the only defense that nb has and even if it would it still doesn't justify current state of nb stealth playstyle.

It seems like You are understanding things incorrectly if that's what You're getting from static's post. It was a skill. Nothing unusual in that. Even if 7 players would play on the worst pvp class and 1 would be playing on meta god mode class still these 7 players should do the easy work out of that 1 if they would have any basic understanding on the game. It takes overwhelmingly more skill to survive 1v7 on any build than to 7v1 someone. If You would look at static's screenshots more carefully You would notice that his max mag will be sitting somwhere around 27k and his max HP somwhere around 36k which doesn't give him that good tooltips on hardened ward. Static is also known for being a big enemy to current state of sorc's shield which You can see in one of the threads he made so accusing him of playing as shieldspammer as some means to defend current nb playstyles is very silly to say atleast

Galeriano2

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

6. Power extraction isnt a PvE morph, its single sourse in the entire game of minor courage put on skill while all others are 5pc sets.

Just a small correction here. Minor courage is also sourced from arcanist's domain, werewolf's pack leader morph and recently from certain scribing abilities.

Tommy_The_Gun

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I have to ask, but have you played NB at all in the past 3 years?

I did played NB today actually... But what I have not done is I have not drink my morning coffee...

necro_the_crafter

Galeriano2 wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

6. Power extraction isnt a PvE morph, its single sourse in the entire game of minor courage put on skill while all others are 5pc sets.

Just a small correction here. Minor courage is also sourced from arcanist's domain, werewolf's pack leader morph and recently from certain scribing abilities.

Yea my bad. But still it shows how free it is for nb, Arcanist one has a radius, WW is ultimate and scribing is behind paywall.