Porting out of IC (Imperial City) when fighting other players needs a fix!

IsharaMeradin

As I understand it, unless the individual in question is on your friends list, in one of your guilds or a whisper recipient, there is no way to know the difference between porting out to Cyrodiil or legitimately crashing. Given the threads about ping and instability with the PvP servers, it is entirely possible that the other player crashed once the fighting started.

If your enemies are consistently "porting" away when you start fighting, try using different skills and gear (if proc IC) as a means of troubleshooting. Is it possible that you could be tossing a lot of calculations and effects their way?

TheMajority

Huh. It's almost like people wanna keep the things they worked for and expended effort for instead of letting some ganker take them. Imagine that. (Btw, you can't even prove anyone is doing such a thing, since stealth pots and other methods of hiding are a thing and there is no visual difference between a player dissapeared because of DC or a player dissapeared because of stealth pot)

This is such a non-issue compared to other stuff in the game. Couldn't care less if somebody disappear when I try to pvp them. I Go find another fight. Well, not that there's many real fights in IC. Mostly just PVE players trying to do a quest. Which I leave them alone, because why fight someone who can't defend themself? Boring.

I'm thinking half the time that being able to go in and out of IC quickly is the only reason the game mode is still halfway even active.

Also, I think its perfectly fine to do outside of combat, because who really cares if someone ports in and out for convenience.

tom6143346

I mean what I do is , I just use invisible pots and sneak out trough the dungeon entrance in ic it’s even faster then port out and risk is nearly the same .

fred4

TheMajority wrote: »

I'm thinking half all the time that being able to go in and out of IC quickly is the only reason the game mode is [still halfway even] active.

This is indisputable. Before IC became it's own campaign you had to ride through Cyro to one of 3 sewer entrances to get into IC. First ZOS introduced the flags and bosses, but it was only when they made IC it's own campaign that the population drastically increased. People often claim that IC is deserted, but it's actually not (upstairs), at least not when compared to before it became it's own campaign.

React

It's laughable seeing so many people come here to defend this, when it is a blatant exploit being used to circumvent the entire core mechanic of imperial city.

Like OP said, on PC you can start and accept a queue with one single button press, while in combat, without ever dropping block or stopping your combat inputs. It typically takes around 15-20 seconds for the queue to fire, be accepted, and for you to exit IC.

Anyone that thinks this is "fine because that is an adequate amount of time to secure a kill" must not have any PVP experience whatsoever. It is easier to survive now than it ever has been in the history of this game. Even the most inept players can effortlessly survive skilled players if they have a halfway decent build, and especially when they have no intentions of fighting back.

Furthermore, people suggesting that this can't be removed due to the "stuck in combat bug" are gaslighting you. There are multiple ways they could work around this to make it so you can accept/start a queue while in combat, but not while DIRECTLY in combat with another player.

For example; you can now only start or accept a queue while in a safe zone (small doors, spawns, sewers), or when you haven't dealt or received damage/healing whilst in combat in 30 seconds.

The current state of telvar farming in IC is an absolute joke. I see the same exact people farming every time I go in there, and all of them queue out the second they see me. Often times they're queueing before I even get within melee range of them, allowing me 5-10 seconds to hit then at most. Furthermore, people are simply avoiding PVP with players they don't want to fight through this same method. It's shameful, exploitative, and completely circumvents the entire core of IC.

Personofsecrets

It's no more shameful or exploitive than anything that people to do get out of fights. Additionally, part of the stuck in combat issue is due to a player having active effects on enemies or enemies effects on them. This causes more class imbalance since some kits more heavily rely on dots. Some kits have a great cleanse.

FlopsyPrince

Not being able to kill an player shows you are not good enough, and I suck at PvP!

Sorry, but I would fully oppose a change removing this. Though normally I go to a "safe area" (such as between zones) to then go to Cyrodiil.

I already get ganked enough. More ganking is not needed.

SteveCampsOut

What's laughable is that anyone is crying over something that hurts nobody but gankers.

MidniteOwl1913

Vulkunne wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The situation where players port out of IC in order to avoid losing telvar stones to another player is abused on a regular basis and needs to be adjusted. Why have items such as sigil of imperial retreat (it´s entire purpose is to be used to safely get away with your stones), when you can simply just queue out to an empty campaign with 0 downsides. Players on PC even use addons that do this things automatically depending on your HP to telvar ratio, or addons which allows you to bind hotkeys to start the queue for them. The option to do this removes the entire risk/reward situation completely which shouldn´t be the case. I´ve 0 issues with people who uses tactics such as invisibility potions, stag 4 vamp sprint to get into invis and get away (or any other proper strategy to get away).

My suggestions to adjust this:
1. Doing damage or taking damage from a player within 30 seconds prevents you from accepting the queue and leaving IC this way.
2. Queueing out of IC while in combat with another player makes you lose the same amount of stones as if you died to said player.
3. Keep the current mechanic but make it so your character stays in IC for another 10-15 seconds before porting out.

I completely agree. Back in the day, this wasn't as big a deal but it's now to the point of being ridiculous and has become too common a practice. There are some out there who leave the very moment you attack them or if they even see you... they gone. It's just sad man. And I saw that post regarding people using those addons, ummm that should be treated as 3rd party cheating software and banned from the game. I'd start with that.

If they see you but aren't in combat, tough. Thems the breaks.

I'm surprised if you really can port while "in combat".

React

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

What's laughable is that anyone is crying over something that hurts nobody but gankers.

Care to explain how this only hurts gankers?

I have never played a ganker in my life, and yet nearly every time I enter IC I end up having somebody queue out to escape me. Most of the time these are players that are in IC to farm telvar, which is a high value resource because of the "risk" associated with farming it - but that risk is non existent when you can simply press a key, hold block and heal/defensive ult for 15 seconds, and escape any player in the game regardless of their skill level or damage.

Keep gaslighting people who are concerned over a genuine exploit. Lol.

The_Ayatollah

React wrote: »

Most of the time these are players that are in IC to farm telvar, which is a high value resource because of the "risk" associated with farming it - but that risk is non existent when you can simply press a key, hold block and heal/defensive ult for 15 seconds, and escape any player in the game regardless of their skill level or damage.

And may I ask what risk do you (or any ganker) take when you enter the zone with 0 tel var and hunt a person who holds let's say 10k tel var? Because to me it looks like you can get all the reward and no risk. So how is that high risk for you?
Actually this is very common strategy for gankers, they go to IC holding 0 tel var, they gank people and if they fail they lose nothing, if they succed they gain a lot of reward, so I don't understand this concept of "high risk - high reward" when some playeres (and especially those who use nb class) take no risk but just reward.

forum_gpt

theres a group of people on AD PC-NA that will just queue out from fights in cyrodiil without any apparent reason.

ForumSavant

Yes, this is abused by more than just people in IC, this is abused everywhere in PvP. People will constantly que out of fights just to avoid giving AP to players, there should be a punishment.

React

The_Ayatollah wrote: »

React wrote: »

Most of the time these are players that are in IC to farm telvar, which is a high value resource because of the "risk" associated with farming it - but that risk is non existent when you can simply press a key, hold block and heal/defensive ult for 15 seconds, and escape any player in the game regardless of their skill level or damage.

And may I ask what risk do you (or any ganker) take when you enter the zone with 0 tel var and hunt a person who holds let's say 10k tel var? Because to me it looks like you can get all the reward and no risk. So how is that high risk for you?
Actually this is very common strategy for gankers, they go to IC holding 0 tel var, they gank people and if they fail they lose nothing, if they succed they gain a lot of reward, so I don't understand this concept of "high risk - high reward" when some playeres (and especially those who use nb class) take no risk but just reward.

In the spoiler below, here are some time stamped videos of me taking vastly outnumbered fights with 25k, 40k, 80k+ telvar on me. I routinely risk large amounts of telvar as I run around trying to kill people in IC.

1:47 40k stones on me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMtMA9OX5dc&t=142s
0:35 for 80k stones on me, 4:47 20k stones on me, 5:54 25k stones on me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue7KMkBjYuk&t=274s
6:00 25k stones on me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDcVr9NttDU

That is beside the point though. Telvar holds value because it is supposed to be difficult/risky to farm. There is no difficulty or risk when you're fighting super easy bosses for it without any risk of dying to a player because of an exploit involving the queue system. Ganker or otherwise, it doesn't matter if your opponent is carrying stones or not - that has no bearing whatsoever on the value of telvar nor the mechanics that are supposed to help regulate the value of telvar.

MidniteOwl1913

React wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

What's laughable is that anyone is crying over something that hurts nobody but gankers.

Care to explain how this only hurts gankers?

I have never played a ganker in my life, and yet nearly every time I enter IC I end up having somebody queue out to escape me. Most of the time these are players that are in IC to farm telvar, which is a high value resource because of the "risk" associated with farming it - but that risk is non existent when you can simply press a key, hold block and heal/defensive ult for 15 seconds, and escape any player in the game regardless of their skill level or damage.

Keep gaslighting people who are concerned over a genuine exploit. Lol.

I do not PVP. I go to IC for the dailies. I like doing them. I get telvar while there. Part of the way I manage risk is if I see another player I leave or sometimes I hide, being a NB it's something I'm geared for. Would it make you feel better if I went into the sewer and then went to Cryo? Or are you requiring I stay where I can be farmed?

React

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

React wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

What's laughable is that anyone is crying over something that hurts nobody but gankers.

Care to explain how this only hurts gankers?

I have never played a ganker in my life, and yet nearly every time I enter IC I end up having somebody queue out to escape me. Most of the time these are players that are in IC to farm telvar, which is a high value resource because of the "risk" associated with farming it - but that risk is non existent when you can simply press a key, hold block and heal/defensive ult for 15 seconds, and escape any player in the game regardless of their skill level or damage.

Keep gaslighting people who are concerned over a genuine exploit. Lol.

I do not PVP. I go to IC for the dailies. I like doing them. I get telvar while there. Part of the way I manage risk is if I see another player I leave or sometimes I hide, being a NB it's something I'm geared for. Would it make you feel better if I went into the sewer and then went to Cryo? Or are you requiring I stay where I can be farmed?

Hiding is fine. Invis pots, cloak, vamp passive, running away, imperial retreat sigils, being a tank, line of sighting, forming a group, killing your opponent, etc are all viable and acceptable counterplay options.

Exploiting the queue system to circumvent PVP and thus telvar loss is not, and should be addressed.

The_Ayatollah

React wrote: »

In the spoiler below, here are some time stamped videos of me taking vastly outnumbered fights with 25k, 40k, 80k+ telvar on me. I routinely risk large amounts of telvar as I run around trying to kill people in IC.

Yes, that's nice and all, but I still don't know what risk take ganker who goes to IC while holding 0 tel var and attacks person who holds large amount of it. Like I said in my previous post "(...) if they fail they lose nothing, if they succed they gain a lot of reward". There is no difficulty or risk if you don't carry any tel var on you and you attack other player who does carry them.

React

The_Ayatollah wrote: »

React wrote: »

In the spoiler below, here are some time stamped videos of me taking vastly outnumbered fights with 25k, 40k, 80k+ telvar on me. I routinely risk large amounts of telvar as I run around trying to kill people in IC.

Yes, that's nice and all, but I still don't know what risk take ganker who goes to IC while holding 0 tel var and attacks person who holds large amount of it. Like I said in my previous post "(...) if they fail they lose nothing, if they succed they gain a lot of reward". There is no difficulty or risk if you don't carry any tel var on you and you attack other player who does carry them.

You've yet to explain what your point is? Whether or not the person attacking you while you're farming is holding telvar has no bearing whatsoever on the core mechanics of imperial city or the telvar system. You suggested that people don't risk anything when attacking you, and I provided you with examples to demonstrate that that isn't always the case.

PVP players in the PVP zone have no obligation to risk anything when looking for PVP. The onus is on the PVE or farming oriented players who are looking to financially benefit from a PVP centric currency by PVEing within a PVP zone.

TelVar doesn't come from players, it comes from NPCs. If you want to farm tel var, you run the risk of dying to a player if you're unable to adequately defend yourself or otherwise escape. That is the entire system that props up the value of telvar. If it was farmed in a PVE only zone, the value of everything associated with it would be worthless.

The exploit involving the queue system is becoming so widespread that we are approaching a point where there is truly 0 risk involved in farming telvar.

Jaraal

forum_gpt wrote: »

theres a group of people on AD PC-NA that will just queue out from fights in cyrodiil without any apparent reason.

Yep some people do this so often that it's become a running joke. Keep claims are made making fun of these folks. They will run around a rock in circles avoiding damage until they vanish into thin air.

The main motivations I see are either somebody doesn't want to spoil their Kill Counter kill streak/record, or they know they are going to get wrecked and are trying to avoid the t-bag. On the flip side, if you are just done with Cyrodiil for the day, it's a lot faster to queue for Imperial City and be at the bank in a few seconds than riding for several minutes to find a keep that's not under attack, then porting to your base, and then running to the wayshrine.

And the reason most people port to IC instead of using the Keep Recall Stones is that the stones cost AP, they can't be used anywhere near a keep or outpost, they can't be used while stuck in combat, and they have a cast time that makes you vulnerable to gankers while channeling the effect.

Orbital78

Jaraal wrote: »

forum_gpt wrote: »

theres a group of people on AD PC-NA that will just queue out from fights in cyrodiil without any apparent reason.

Yep some people do this so often that it's become a running joke. Keep claims are made making fun of these folks. They will run around a rock in circles avoiding damage until they vanish into thin air.

I ran into one of those groups at a resource while getting level 1, people were laughing in chat at them. To me dying is an easy teleport in Cyrodiil. IC is a different story though, since you lose currency that PVE players have a harder time accumulating. I tried out that Tel Var saver addon and it does work great. I had suspected there was a QoL tool like this out there, but hadn't bothered to find one until this post. Thanks.

SeaGtGruff

React wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

What's laughable is that anyone is crying over something that hurts nobody but gankers.

Care to explain how this only hurts gankers?

I have never played a ganker in my life, and yet nearly every time I enter IC I end up having somebody queue out to escape me. Most of the time these are players that are in IC to farm telvar, which is a high value resource because of the "risk" associated with farming it - but that risk is non existent when you can simply press a key, hold block and heal/defensive ult for 15 seconds, and escape any player in the game regardless of their skill level or damage.

Keep gaslighting people who are concerned over a genuine exploit. Lol.

It does sound like an exploit, but I would rather see a solution that doesn't interfere with the normal, non-exploitative queuing from IC to Cyrodiil and vice versa.

And I'm sure there will be arguments over which cases are "normal, non-exploitative queuing" and which are "exploitative," but to my mind it boils down to whether there's any automation involved-- i.e., press a single key to run a script, or use an addon that automatically joins and accepts a queue if some threshold has been crossed. Those sound too much like macros to me, which I thought were disallowed and could get players banned.

On the other hand, reporting other players just because they queued from IC to Cyrodiil or vice versa-- which is a normal part of the game's design-- is too susceptible to abuse by people who are sore that their intended victim got away.

If I remember correctly, before IC got its own campaigns and became separated from Cyrodiil, it used to be possible to queue from one campaign to another, because I'm pretty sure I used to use that method on occasion to quickly return to base (in a different campaign) to hand in scouting missions, or to safely leave IC after having gone there to do a master crafting writ.

It was also possible to enter one of the three sewer outlets around Lake Rumare to access our alliance base in the IC sewers, then immediately exit the sewers and find ourselves back at our base in Cyrodiil, something else I used to do a lot.

The way things work now is little more than a variation on the way things have always worked, and asking ZOS to punish (ban) players for using a normal and intended part of the game's design is wrong. But if players are using macros and addons that automate this to the level of an exploit, then I would be in favor of ZOS plugging those holes to stop the exploits as long as it doesn't prevent the normal, intended process of queuing for IC and Cyrodiil.

FlopsyPrince

The design decision to require running the sewers to get back to the base otherwise was a bad design choice.

And as to "AD players" being blamed - players from all factions do bad things. Unless you are just pegging me for not wanting to fight solo myself, since I primarily run AD.

davidtk

Yeah yeah, I can understand that it can look like an exploit for gankers and for those who can't fight against equals and prefer to only attack low-lvl.
Btw every public addon working with game API what devs allowed to use. So still can't see any problem or exploit with that.
I know that was there some PvP addon what used some techniques what detected cloaked player, that was exploit and cheat. Queue to Cyro <-> IC isn't because you can use it without addon. And if you can't do it in the middle of fight without addon?
You can still use inv pots and go throught the gate/balcony and queue safely.
Btw I saw it many times that some heroes rather went to kill low-lvl than high CP and then ran somewhere else. Lol.

The_Ayatollah

React wrote: »

The_Ayatollah wrote: »

React wrote: »

In the spoiler below, here are some time stamped videos of me taking vastly outnumbered fights with 25k, 40k, 80k+ telvar on me. I routinely risk large amounts of telvar as I run around trying to kill people in IC.

Yes, that's nice and all, but I still don't know what risk take ganker who goes to IC while holding 0 tel var and attacks person who holds large amount of it. Like I said in my previous post "(...) if they fail they lose nothing, if they succed they gain a lot of reward". There is no difficulty or risk if you don't carry any tel var on you and you attack other player who does carry them.

You've yet to explain what your point is? Whether or not the person attacking you while you're farming is holding telvar has no bearing whatsoever on the core mechanics of imperial city or the telvar system. You suggested that people don't risk anything when attacking you, and I provided you with examples to demonstrate that that isn't always the case.

PVP players in the PVP zone have no obligation to risk anything when looking for PVP. The onus is on the PVE or farming oriented players who are looking to financially benefit from a PVP centric currency by PVEing within a PVP zone.

TelVar doesn't come from players, it comes from NPCs. If you want to farm tel var, you run the risk of dying to a player if you're unable to adequately defend yourself or otherwise escape. That is the entire system that props up the value of telvar. If it was farmed in a PVE only zone, the value of everything associated with it would be worthless.

The exploit involving the queue system is becoming so widespread that we are approaching a point where there is truly 0 risk involved in farming telvar.

My point is to figure out what sort of risk take gankers who go to IC with 0 tel var on them, the "risk" you stated in your first post that I responded to. I'm also very convinced that it does matter if person who attacks me holds tel var and it is directly related to IC mechanics. When I kill ganker who attacks me and holds 0 tel var I get noting out of it, however if this same ganker who holds 0 tel var manage to kill me, he takes half of my tel var which I needed time to farm. You provided here one example where you hold tel var while fighting in IC, yet I stated that it's common for gankers to hold 0 tel var, I never stated that always person who attacks you hold no tel vars.

So if you say that "PVP players in the PVP zone have no obligation to risk anything when looking for PVP" then about what risk you were talking about eariler? that's what I'm trying to figure out here, because it seems like you admit that there are players who take no risk and gain whole reward. In regarding to main topic here I could make argument that PVE players have no obligation to risk anything when looking for PVE or thier tel var, and that is why they port out of IC, and if you are looking for PVP you can go to cyrodiil, BGs or do some duels, however if some players are looking for tel var they have no other place to go.

I do agree with you that tel vars come from NPCs, however it's players who have to spend time to get them, and that is why they don't want to lose them, because they are losing time. And when it comes to defending myself I do understand that point, however on multiple, and I mean multiple occasions I died due to server delay/lag and not my lack of skills, basically I was dead before I had any chance to react, so because of this I do understand when people prefer to simply port out with thier tel vars instead of engage in fight.

Should I call sever delay an exploit in that case? No, developer of this game created this mechanics/system and players just use it.

Rowjoh

Don't think this is an issue for Nightblades!

Sidewaves89

OsUfi wrote: »

Can you queue if you're in combat? If someone has time to open the Cyro window, queue for a campaign, get into queue, accept a queue request all while being attacked you're not doing enough DPS.

If they've queued before combat, then thats just poor timing. Tough boobies.

One addon allow you to queue with one button to your home campaign even in combat, another addon auto accept queue request. All you need is survive few seconds before porting.

Delimber

You can fix this issue by making it so you don't lose Telvar on death. There, problem solved.

davidtk

Sidewaves89 wrote: »

One addon allow you to queue with one button to your home campaign even in combat, another addon auto accept queue request.....

You need only one for that

OsUfi wrote: »

Can you queue if you're in combat? If someone has time to open the Cyro window, queue for a campaign, get into queue, accept a queue request all while being attacked you're not doing enough DPS.

Or you met some working troll build

Aurielle

I’m a PVPer, and my time is valuable to me. I never port out during combat in IC (that’s just greasy behavior) and will always fight to the death if engaged, but I do admittedly stealth and port out to bank my Tel Var when I hit 2k (whether there are other players around or not). If I had to waste time running back to base through the sewers to bank my TV or waste funds on retreat stones, I simply wouldn’t go to IC anymore. I only go to IC for the hakeijos, and would go back to buying them with gold if it became less efficient to farm TV. I certainly don’t go to IC for the PVP. Cyrodiil and BGs offer much better PVP experiences for my playstyle. Getting ganked by a NB wearing three ranged proc sets or getting zerged down by 24 ADs farming bosses on cooldown while I’m solo barely qualifies as “PVP,” so I feel no shame in refusing to engage in that garbage.

darvaria

Well NB's can do it all the time and Sorcs can streak and use invis potion. Or any class can use invis potion.

Using this is the ONLY way to get out of combat. This isn't really a problem. In fact, it would ruin it for many players not to be able to que back and forth between IC and Cyro.