Guild trader listings being changed to 14 days??!?

Zodiarkslayer · May 2

Ilumia wrote: »

That is so easy to say when it isn't your playstyle being sacrificed on the ever-hungry server improvement altar.

I am sorry, if you feel your playstyle is infringed. But I am confident that you will get over this change.

About the Server improvement: Their reasoning is sound. ESO is basically a giant database, that has to run real time with all connected clients on a fixed amount of hardware.
Cut away the unwanted, unneccesary or redundant data and you'll have less to handle for said hardware.
This is simplified, ofc. But I think we can all agree on the principle.

Will we experience the improved performance on the frontend? Probably not.

Will it be measurable on the back end? Youbetyalillybacksidesitwill!

DenverRalphy · May 2

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Ilumia wrote: »

That is so easy to say when it isn't your playstyle being sacrificed on the ever-hungry server improvement altar.

I am sorry, if you feel your playstyle is infringed. But I am confident that you will get over this change.

About the Server improvement: Their reasoning is sound. ESO is basically a giant database, that has to run real time with all connected clients on a fixed amount of hardware.
Cut away the unwanted, unneccesary or redundant data and you'll have less to handle for said hardware.
This is simplified, ofc. But I think we can all agree on the principle.

Will we experience the improved performance on the frontend? Probably not.

Will it be measurable on the back end? Youbetyalillybacksidesitwill!

To be fair, the change wouldn't improve or reduce data/traffic on the servers. If anything it'd create an increase. Today, when an item expires it was listed only once every 30 days. After the change, the same item would be listed twice (actually thrice if the player is on the ball) every 30 days. Effectively doubling or tripling the traffic transactions, while maintaining the same amount of data represented by the items.

TaSheen · May 2

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Will it be measurable on the back end? Youbetyalillybacksidesitwill!

I am very doubtful that will be the outcome.

DigiAngel · May 2

Seems like more bandaids instead of addressing core issues.

wolfie1.0. · May 2

If zos where concerned about inflation they wouldn't be running a gold increase event.

The stated reason is database limits

But I suspect they are looking at the side impact of engagement. They want people logging in more often.

TaSheen · May 2

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

If zos where concerned about inflation they wouldn't be running a gold increase event.

The stated reason is database limits

But I suspect they are looking at the side impact of engagement. They want people logging in more often.

You're most likely correct - hard for me to log in more often than every day for 7 hours or so though!

twev · May 2

RMW wrote: »

If they said it would be to combat inflation I wouldn't care so much. But they didn't They said it's to improve server performance while at the same time we never got an update regarding the code rewrite from more than 2 years ago. (And I guess that code rewrite is just not happening anymore)

And after seeing how much the server performance got improved after the account wide achievement update... I'm not sure this will be it.

Oh, I'm sure.
With the likely increase in mail traffic, server performance can't 'improve'.

Desiato · May 2

IMO the "performance" reasoning is just spin. The mail and trading systems shouldn't be impacting combat performance. These are changes to reduce overhead and maintenance costs to save money.

sarahthes · May 2

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Ilumia wrote: »

But those of us that believe the econony would benefit from more gold sinks might not enjoy the 14 day timers ...

Sometimes you've got to give up a little bit of personal space in order to have more room for everyone.

You can probably imagine what I think of someone wanting to avoid a change, that would benefit everybody, based on nothing better than one's personal desire for convenience ... 😉

It is not the players' responsibility to make the game work. It is the ones who make it who should be responsible for that.

And yet when they do, everyone says "not like that".

Wildberryjack · May 2

I'm ok with it ONLY if they also halve the listing fee. Otherwise this is bs.

TaSheen · May 2

sarahthes wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Ilumia wrote: »

But those of us that believe the econony would benefit from more gold sinks might not enjoy the 14 day timers ...

Sometimes you've got to give up a little bit of personal space in order to have more room for everyone.

You can probably imagine what I think of someone wanting to avoid a change, that would benefit everybody, based on nothing better than one's personal desire for convenience ... 😉

It is not the players' responsibility to make the game work. It is the ones who make it who should be responsible for that.

And yet when they do, everyone says "not like that".

That's because it's "their" game, not ours, no matter that it's B2P. As long as I've been here, almost nothing the players have asked for and the devs have eventually provided has dropped as any of the players advocating for whatever it was wanted to see.

See AWA. Now, I don't care about achievements at all, I think they're useless in any game. But there are a lot of people who DO care about them - and they basically got trampled by the "elephants in the dev center".

Arcturus · May 2

Who [snip] wants an item to take longer than 14 days to sell? I don't see the problem with this change.

If it's taking you more than 2 days you should probably check the price, besides, items that are really, really expensive don't get sold in guild traders, they're sold in zone chats to dodge the fees so I don't see the issue there either.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Ilumia · May 2

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

I am sorry, if you feel your playstyle is infringed. But I am confident that you will get over this change.

Just to be clear, almost everything discussed/every grievance about the game is first world problems, so "getting over it" is obviously something to put in the perspective of a game - my entertainment, not my fundamental standard of living. But I won't start every post I make with "in the perspective of my fortunate life where I have time to relax playing eso", I believe that should be implied on this eso forum.
All of that said I have used this game - maybe to an unhealthy amount - to help me stay distracted, entertained and happy when life has been particularly tough. Especially when my house burned completely down, I lost family, and mostly when I've been so depressed it made me loose hope in the future.
Therefore I allow myself to actually care about it and the changes, good and bad. That's what I'm doing here. And for the stuff I think zos does really wrong, I consider leaving, especially if the impact is large enough on my convenience or playstyle (which I'll be the judge of, not you), or take a partial or complete break. The stuff they do right makes me feel better about the game or engages me to stay for longer.
Which is the long og the short on why I'm here on the forum saying that I think this change sucks massively for me, and apparently many others. Telling me I'll get over it is a little demeaning and beside the point. I can always leave and get over eso, it's sad and I'd rather have a game I can enjoy, but at some point too many negative changes are enough, and that is the point.

Melivar · May 2

As someone who sells on the low end for the quick sale the majority of the time this doesn't bother me. Perhaps could help me as prices in general may come down on some of the things I randomly look for because I am too lazy to farm.

I generally buy things just to have not particularly because I want them so it's always just a price threshold, I am willing to pay for things not necessarily what the market value for them are. If it falls in that range when I go shopping, I buy it even it TTC and other addons say it's not worth that much. Most things gradually come down so i can wait.

I_killed_Vivec · May 2

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

About the Server improvement: Their reasoning is sound. ESO is basically a giant database, that has to run real time with all connected clients on a fixed amount of hardware.
Cut away the unwanted, unneccesary or redundant data and you'll have less to handle for said hardware.
This is simplified, ofc. But I think we can all agree on the principle.

Will we experience the improved performance on the frontend? Probably not.

Will it be measurable on the back end? Youbetyalillybacksidesitwill!

Will they affect "database" performance?

By ZoS's own admission most items sell within 14 days, so for those items it won't make any difference at all.

For items that would sell in between 14 and 28 days - now there is an added rejection email and relisting. More work.

For items that take longer than 28 days to sell - now you get twice as many rejection emails and relistings. More work.

So for an active player, monitoring their sales and rejected items, the change puts more strain on the database performance, not less.

The difference is only apparent when someone takes a break of a month. With listings and emails lasting for a month that player loses nothing. If they only last for 14 days then they lose everything - all trader listings gone, all emails gone, all sales gone, all rejected items gone.

Your trading account is effectively purged.

Jaraal · May 2

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

The difference is only apparent when someone takes a break of a month. With listings and emails lasting for a month that player loses nothing. If they only last for 14 days then they lose everything - all trader listings gone, all emails gone, all sales gone, all rejected items gone.

Your trading account is effectively purged.

That makes sense.

In the same way that they utilized FOMO during the last event, making it so your items and sales earnings disappear after 14 days instead of 30 is another FOMO trigger. Better log in more often if you want to keep your stuff from disappearing in the mail. Don't want to miss out on making gold? Then you'll need to log in more than twice as often to refresh your listings.

Zodiarkslayer · May 2

An item listed on a guild trader creates multiple instances of traffic between a client and the servers, everytime a Player parses the guild trader. Now multiply that by the number of players, who parse through the guild listings. Per second.
Thats a lot of traffic!
Now compare this immense traffic to a relitavely small and static traffic that an item attached to a mail has, because it doesn't get send to a dozen players per second ...

C'mon, you are all smart enough to know that.

Alinhbo_Tyaka · May 2

Arcturus wrote: »

Who [snip] wants an item to take longer than 14 days to sell? I don't see the problem with this change.

If it's taking you more than 2 days you should probably check the price, besides, items that are really, really expensive don't get sold in guild traders, they're sold in zone chats to dodge the fees so I don't see the issue there either.

It is not uncommon for me to have items that take close to the full time to sell that isn't related to the asking price. The biggest factor affecting sales is the guild trader system itself. There is no mechanism for a player to find all of the traders selling a particular item meaning it is shear luck that a player finds your trader and buys the item. Yes there is TTC on the PC but it is unreliable as it depends upon players with the addon visiting guild traders for updating. Even then it does not report all items at a guild trader, only those that were searched for. Another drawback is not all guild traders are accessible by all players. If a player does not own a DLC or subscribe to ESO+ they cannot access those locations guild traders even if they know the item they are looking for is there at the best price.

As to high priced items I have had no problems selling the few I get via the guild trader. Yes it might take some time but the system is designed to be list it and forget about it. This change means passive sellers like myself will be forced to become more active. So much for "Play it your own way."

Jaraal wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

The difference is only apparent when someone takes a break of a month. With listings and emails lasting for a month that player loses nothing. If they only last for 14 days then they lose everything - all trader listings gone, all emails gone, all sales gone, all rejected items gone.

Your trading account is effectively purged.

That makes sense.

In the same way that they utilized FOMO during the last event, making it so your items disappear after 14 days instead of 30 is another FOMO trigger. Better log in more often if you want to keep your stuff from disappearing in the mail. Don't want to miss out on making gold? Then you'll need to log in twice as often to refresh your listings.

The change is definitely a disincentive for me to utilize the guild trader or do much more than collect my daily reward and immediately logout.

[edited to remove quote]

I_killed_Vivec · May 2

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

An item listed on a guild trader creates multiple instances of traffic between a client and the servers, everytime a Player parses the guild trader. Now multiply that by the number of players, who parse through the guild listings. Per second.
Thats a lot of traffic!

But they aren't reducing the number of listings. Surely you can see that, not least because reducing the number of listings available to each player would make a difference (but I still don't think people care too much about how long it takes to access a trader - this is not a performance issue like Cyrodiil is).

Most active traders will try to keep the number of items listed up to the maximum, filling empty slots within a day or two. So the number of listings that have to be retrieved each time a player uses a trader won't change because of this initiative.

They say themselves that "most" items sell in 14 days. So their change means nothing for most items.

If expired items are relisted within a day or so then it makes very little difference to these either.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Now compare this immense traffic to a relitavely small and static traffic that an item attached to a mail has, because it doesn't get send to a dozen players per second ...

C'mon, you are all smart enough to know that.

And yet their other "big" change is to reduce the number of days you will retain emails. Addressing what you call "a relatively small and static traffic". I wonder why they bother...

The difference only becomes apparent for people who are absent for a while. Take two weeks off and you have NO items listed. Take four weeks off and you've lost all of the returned items. As someone said above - driving game play through FOMO.

FluffyBird · May 2

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

An item listed on a guild trader creates multiple instances of traffic between a client and the servers, everytime a Player parses the guild trader. Now multiply that by the number of players, who parse through the guild listings. Per second.
Thats a lot of traffic!
Now compare this immense traffic to a relitavely small and static traffic that an item attached to a mail has, because it doesn't get send to a dozen players per second ...

C'mon, you are all smart enough to know that.

[Snip] So: how the shortening of a listing lifetime would reduce the AMOUNT of listings at any given time?
[Snip]

[Edited for baiting and bashing]

FlopsyPrince · May 2

FluffyBird wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

An item listed on a guild trader creates multiple instances of traffic between a client and the servers, everytime a Player parses the guild trader. Now multiply that by the number of players, who parse through the guild listings. Per second.
Thats a lot of traffic!
Now compare this immense traffic to a relitavely small and static traffic that an item attached to a mail has, because it doesn't get send to a dozen players per second ...

C'mon, you are all smart enough to know that.

[Snip]So: how the shortening of a listing lifetime would reduce the AMOUNT of listings at any given time?
[Snip]

The performance "boost" will probably be because many players will not quickly repost things to sell.

Imagine how great a boost they could get if they simply banned listings! Or made them 1 day!

Obviously they won't do that or it would kill guild traders, but that is the only performance boost for a shorter listing time. They may be trying to reduce the overall database size, but that is something they have to face if they ever manage to grow the playerbase.

[Edited quote]

Jaraal · May 2

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

An item listed on a guild trader creates multiple instances of traffic between a client and the servers, everytime a Player parses the guild trader. Now multiply that by the number of players, who parse through the guild listings. Per second.
Thats a lot of traffic!
Now compare this immense traffic to a relitavely small and static traffic that an item attached to a mail has, because it doesn't get send to a dozen players per second ...

C'mon, you are all smart enough to know that.

[Snip] So: how the shortening of a listing lifetime would reduce the AMOUNT of listings at any given time?
[Snip]

The performance "boost" will probably be because many players will not quickly repost things to sell.

I can't speak for ALL players, but I keep all 150 trader slots filled 100% of the time. I'm not sure why a shorter listing time would motivate anyone to store items in their inventory, rather than trying to get rid of them for gold.

[Edited quote]

FlopsyPrince · May 2

Jaraal wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

An item listed on a guild trader creates multiple instances of traffic between a client and the servers, everytime a Player parses the guild trader. Now multiply that by the number of players, who parse through the guild listings. Per second.
Thats a lot of traffic!
Now compare this immense traffic to a relitavely small and static traffic that an item attached to a mail has, because it doesn't get send to a dozen players per second ...

C'mon, you are all smart enough to know that.

[Snip] So: how the shortening of a listing lifetime would reduce the AMOUNT of listings at any given time?
[Snip]

The performance "boost" will probably be because many players will not quickly repost things to sell.

I can't speak for ALL players, but I keep all 150 trader slots filled 100% of the time. I'm not sure why a shorter listing time would motivate anyone to store items in their inventory, rather than trying to get rid of them for gold.

I don't speak for all of them either, but I would be fairly confident in my assumption that many do not relist that quickly.

[Edited quote]

Ilumia · May 2

Zodiak does make a point about fewer listings, and a server performance improvement in that. I definitely think this change will result in fewer overall listings, since there's a delay for relisting expired stuff, and more people will have to take down everything for life circumstances now only being allowed to take 14 days. Also, more casual traders will be kicked for taking holidays/trips/etc., and might take a bit longer when they return to the game to start listing again, since some might have to get back in a trading guild.

This'll probably most likely affect the uncommon items that most people say often takes a while to sell.

So this is another consequence of this annoying change, and another way to inconvenience traders or anyone buying things from them - maybe I'm being a bit over dramatic, but I just really dislike this stupid change.

It will overall make the trader system even worse than I cosidered in the beginning of reading kevins post - whoever analogied the toadstool sandwich with sauerkraut and arsenic sauce was on point! (And managed to say it with brilliantly few words, I should really learn).

sarahthes · May 2

FluffyBird wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

An item listed on a guild trader creates multiple instances of traffic between a client and the servers, everytime a Player parses the guild trader. Now multiply that by the number of players, who parse through the guild listings. Per second.
Thats a lot of traffic!
Now compare this immense traffic to a relitavely small and static traffic that an item attached to a mail has, because it doesn't get send to a dozen players per second ...

C'mon, you are all smart enough to know that.

[Snip]. So: how the shortening of a listing lifetime would reduce the AMOUNT of listings at any given time?
[Snip].

Well, if someone has stuff listed and goes inactive they can't be put into cold storage til their listings expire and then their mail expires. Meaning instead of 30 days inactivity it works out to 60 days inactivity before their character data is moved.

I suspect all this is related to that. Which does free up resources.

[Edited quote]

BahometZ · May 2

Not a fan of this at all. Data driven changes often miss the mark because data alone is not knowledge, it relies on correct interpretation.

Will it improve performance? Who knows.

I do know that everytime there is an event the game performance suffers significantly.

I worry that the game can't cope with the amount of engagement they are actively seeking.

FluffyBird · May 2

sarahthes wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

An item listed on a guild trader creates multiple instances of traffic between a client and the servers, everytime a Player parses the guild trader. Now multiply that by the number of players, who parse through the guild listings. Per second.
Thats a lot of traffic!
Now compare this immense traffic to a relitavely small and static traffic that an item attached to a mail has, because it doesn't get send to a dozen players per second ...

C'mon, you are all smart enough to know that.

[Snip]. So: how the shortening of a listing lifetime would reduce the AMOUNT of listings at any given time?
[Snip].

Well, if someone has stuff listed and goes inactive they can't be put into cold storage til their listings expire and then their mail expires. Meaning instead of 30 days inactivity it works out to 60 days inactivity before their character data is moved.

I suspect all this is related to that. Which does free up resources.

I can see how "shorter expiration timer -> faster cold storage readiness -> more accounts in cold storage" works, yes.
It feels like they are cutting corners more and more and can't be honest and open about what and why they are doing.

[Edited quote]

FlopsyPrince · May 3

sarahthes wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

An item listed on a guild trader creates multiple instances of traffic between a client and the servers, everytime a Player parses the guild trader. Now multiply that by the number of players, who parse through the guild listings. Per second.
Thats a lot of traffic!
Now compare this immense traffic to a relitavely small and static traffic that an item attached to a mail has, because it doesn't get send to a dozen players per second ...

C'mon, you are all smart enough to know that.

[Snip]. So: how the shortening of a listing lifetime would reduce the AMOUNT of listings at any given time?
[Snip].

Well, if someone has stuff listed and goes inactive they can't be put into cold storage til their listings expire and then their mail expires. Meaning instead of 30 days inactivity it works out to 60 days inactivity before their character data is moved.

I suspect all this is related to that. Which does free up resources.

A game that has to put people into "cold storage" for being gone 30 days is sad.

[Edited quote]

FlopsyPrince · May 3

FluffyBird wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

An item listed on a guild trader creates multiple instances of traffic between a client and the servers, everytime a Player parses the guild trader. Now multiply that by the number of players, who parse through the guild listings. Per second.
Thats a lot of traffic!
Now compare this immense traffic to a relitavely small and static traffic that an item attached to a mail has, because it doesn't get send to a dozen players per second ...

C'mon, you are all smart enough to know that.

[Snip]. So: how the shortening of a listing lifetime would reduce the AMOUNT of listings at any given time?
[Snip].

Well, if someone has stuff listed and goes inactive they can't be put into cold storage til their listings expire and then their mail expires. Meaning instead of 30 days inactivity it works out to 60 days inactivity before their character data is moved.

I suspect all this is related to that. Which does free up resources.

I can see how "shorter expiration timer -> faster cold storage readiness -> more accounts in cold storage" works, yes.
It feels like they are cutting corners more and more and can't be honest and open about what and why they are doing.

I agree. I am seriously considering how long this game will be around. I would stop playing today if I knew they would cancel it in a year. What would be the point?

I don't expect that to happen, thus I am not currently planning on that, but things like this do make me wonder.

[Edited quote]

SilverBride · May 3

ESO is not dying. They are just trying to improve server performance.