Guild trader listings being changed to 14 days??!?

allochthons

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

ZoS is pruning accounts that have been idle for 30 days.

The change to the budget is some manager asking "how can we reduce our storage overhead?"

Ooooh, I think you're on to something there.
But aren't idle accounts moved into "cold storage" anyway? Maybe this is an interim solution?
This doesn't quote any ZoS employees, but the cold storage comments are by pretty knowledgeable players.

FlopsyPrince

Ilumia wrote: »

This is definitely not in the wrong section, I wouldn't have seen if it had been posted in the pts section, and trading is something I spend a lot of time on, so I am frustrated with it and would like to be able to participate in the debate before it goes live. I just suck at combat sadly, so I don't look at the pts section since I don't really understand those parts, though I suppose I really should bother.

This is a sucky change, and this game makes me feel more and more like a junkie instead of a normal person with a hobby.

QoL improvements do not take features away from us, no mattet how they're used by the players. If zos thinks players use them in a way they're not meant for, they should consider what problems people are trying to solve, and look at making improvements there if they even think about making some system poorer (like in this case trading and mail systems).

They didn't say whose quality of life they wanted to improve!

FlopsyPrince

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

If it means that players will make an effort to list their goods at reasonable prices that others are actually willing to pay, rather than listing at high prices in the hope that people will be forced to pay that much once all of the reasonably-priced items have been scarfed up (possibly by flippers), then I'm not against it.

With no way to figure that out.

Your argument also fails because many items don't just required a good price. They require someone know where it is listed and someone who needs it at that point.

Sure, we could sell most motifs for 10 gold listings, but only because they are really worth more! "Fair pricing" is a false argument especially when you have no way to find out a good price as the system is now, especially on console.

I_killed_Vivec

allochthons wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

ZoS is pruning accounts that have been idle for 30 days.

The change to the budget is some manager asking "how can we reduce our storage overhead?"

Ooooh, I think you're on to something there.
But aren't idle accounts moved into "cold storage" anyway? Maybe this is an interim solution?
This doesn't quote any ZoS employees, but the cold storage comments are by pretty knowledgeable players.

That's why I said "pruning" - just trimming as much of your account as possible without putting it in cold storage.

But I wouldn't be surprised if they also reduce the length of the inactive period before putting you on ice...

allochthons

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

"Fair pricing" is a false argument especially when you have no way to find out a good price as the system is now, especially on console.

I want to emphasize this point. When you have add-ons, and 3rd party sites like TTC, a 'fair price' is reasonable. It is NOT when it takes hours, literally hours, to check for prices in all the traders.

Between this and the 14 days being too short for countries with reasonable vacation policies, it really shows just how much ZoS is focused on PC-NA. The appearance that EU and consoles are simply not included in their calculations is very strong.

FlopsyPrince

allochthons wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

"Fair pricing" is a false argument especially when you have no way to find out a good price as the system is now, especially on console.

I want to emphasize this point. When you have add-ons, and 3rd party sites like TTC, a 'fair price' is reasonable. It is NOT when it takes hours, literally hours, to check for prices in all the traders.

Between this and the 14 days being too short for countries with reasonable vacation policies, it really shows just how much ZoS is focused on PC-NA. The appearance that EU and consoles are simply not included in their calculations is very strong.

Even the TTA price is not necessarily reasonable.

I saw this when I was searching for Bolstered gear for my Tank Azandar. TTC claimed 8-10K was a good price for the items, yet the only sales I could find for many pieces as 10x that. Thus the TTC data is low.

I went to 10-20 of the sites it noted with prices closer to what it said was reasonable - all were sold out, no matter if they were even seen 5 minutes before.

Only a central in-game source could provide accurate data and we do not have that now.

Desiato

allochthons wrote: »

it really shows just how much ZoS is focused on PC-NA. The appearance that EU and consoles are simply not included in their calculations is very strong.

Their focus is on the players who bought 60+ million copies of Skyrim, not a particular platform.

BlueRaven

SilverBride wrote: »

I doubt trade guilds will empty. It probably won't affect traders much at all because items don't normally sit for more than 2 weeks without selling, and if they do they need to be priced differently.

Items will become rarer, so expect costs to go up.

RicAlmighty

[Removed]

Necrotech_Master

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

"Fair pricing" is a false argument especially when you have no way to find out a good price as the system is now, especially on console.

I want to emphasize this point. When you have add-ons, and 3rd party sites like TTC, a 'fair price' is reasonable. It is NOT when it takes hours, literally hours, to check for prices in all the traders.

Between this and the 14 days being too short for countries with reasonable vacation policies, it really shows just how much ZoS is focused on PC-NA. The appearance that EU and consoles are simply not included in their calculations is very strong.

Even the TTA price is not necessarily reasonable.

I saw this when I was searching for Bolstered gear for my Tank Azandar. TTC claimed 8-10K was a good price for the items, yet the only sales I could find for many pieces as 10x that. Thus the TTC data is low.

I went to 10-20 of the sites it noted with prices closer to what it said was reasonable - all were sold out, no matter if they were even seen 5 minutes before.

Only a central in-game source could provide accurate data and we do not have that now.

well, with TTC you can already see what a central service can do, the "suggested" price was 8-10k, you went to all the locations that it showed had listings for around that but they were sold out, and the only ones you found for 10x the price

people were using that buying the "cheap" ones and then relisting at the higher price which is why you found the ones that were listed for 10x what the suggested price was

it would be significantly worse with a much more live-data central sales house because you could just search for item, filter low price listed first, buy up everything under a certain amount and then relist for 10-100x what you paid for it

Ilumia

[snip][snip][beep][censored][snip] - [thinly veiled frustration] - Aaargh!

[edited for bashing]

FlopsyPrince

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

"Fair pricing" is a false argument especially when you have no way to find out a good price as the system is now, especially on console.

I want to emphasize this point. When you have add-ons, and 3rd party sites like TTC, a 'fair price' is reasonable. It is NOT when it takes hours, literally hours, to check for prices in all the traders.

Between this and the 14 days being too short for countries with reasonable vacation policies, it really shows just how much ZoS is focused on PC-NA. The appearance that EU and consoles are simply not included in their calculations is very strong.

Even the TTA price is not necessarily reasonable.

I saw this when I was searching for Bolstered gear for my Tank Azandar. TTC claimed 8-10K was a good price for the items, yet the only sales I could find for many pieces as 10x that. Thus the TTC data is low.

I went to 10-20 of the sites it noted with prices closer to what it said was reasonable - all were sold out, no matter if they were even seen 5 minutes before.

Only a central in-game source could provide accurate data and we do not have that now.

well, with TTC you can already see what a central service can do, the "suggested" price was 8-10k, you went to all the locations that it showed had listings for around that but they were sold out, and the only ones you found for 10x the price

people were using that buying the "cheap" ones and then relisting at the higher price which is why you found the ones that were listed for 10x what the suggested price was

it would be significantly worse with a much more live-data central sales house because you could just search for item, filter low price listed first, buy up everything under a certain amount and then relist for 10-100x what you paid for it

Not true. TTC is not a "central service". It is time delayed and dependent on who is using it. One built into the system would show real-time information and would be accurate for "now". You might get beat to a "deal" but even the most dedicated can't immediately snap up every possible deal. Or at least if they did it would be clear what a good sales price was!

And I would rather know 80-100K was the fair price for something than being told 8-10K was a fair price. At least I could know what to list at AND what to buy at. Now it is quite murky.

Necrotech_Master

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

"Fair pricing" is a false argument especially when you have no way to find out a good price as the system is now, especially on console.

I want to emphasize this point. When you have add-ons, and 3rd party sites like TTC, a 'fair price' is reasonable. It is NOT when it takes hours, literally hours, to check for prices in all the traders.

Between this and the 14 days being too short for countries with reasonable vacation policies, it really shows just how much ZoS is focused on PC-NA. The appearance that EU and consoles are simply not included in their calculations is very strong.

Even the TTA price is not necessarily reasonable.

I saw this when I was searching for Bolstered gear for my Tank Azandar. TTC claimed 8-10K was a good price for the items, yet the only sales I could find for many pieces as 10x that. Thus the TTC data is low.

I went to 10-20 of the sites it noted with prices closer to what it said was reasonable - all were sold out, no matter if they were even seen 5 minutes before.

Only a central in-game source could provide accurate data and we do not have that now.

well, with TTC you can already see what a central service can do, the "suggested" price was 8-10k, you went to all the locations that it showed had listings for around that but they were sold out, and the only ones you found for 10x the price

people were using that buying the "cheap" ones and then relisting at the higher price which is why you found the ones that were listed for 10x what the suggested price was

it would be significantly worse with a much more live-data central sales house because you could just search for item, filter low price listed first, buy up everything under a certain amount and then relist for 10-100x what you paid for it

Not true. TTC is not a "central service". It is time delayed and dependent on who is using it. One built into the system would show real-time information and would be accurate for "now". You might get beat to a "deal" but even the most dedicated can't immediately snap up every possible deal. Or at least if they did it would be clear what a good sales price was!

And I would rather know 80-100K was the fair price for something than being told 8-10K was a fair price. At least I could know what to list at AND what to buy at. Now it is quite murky.

TTC is the closest we have to a central service for sales, the delays and inefficiencies (only capturing listings which people upload) is what helps keep it in check

if TTC is suggesting the listing is 8-10k, then that means the vast majority of the listings are showing an avg of 8-10k, if your only seeing listings for 80-100k, theres likely not many of those, and the calculations they use might treat those as outliers and exclude that data, as that would just raise the avg

i personally dont like TTC because it only uses listings to give suggestions, not actual sales, though in this case if its suggesting an avg of 8-10k, i doubt the ones listed at 80-100k are selling at all unless they are the only ones left on the market because all of the 8-10k ones are being bought up (hence why the listings in that range are sold out)

but it does do a good job at making it easier to find the listings, just no guarantee that they will still be there if they are on the low end of the suggested because everyone wants to buy the cheapest first

Dawnblade

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

"Fair pricing" is a false argument especially when you have no way to find out a good price as the system is now, especially on console.

I want to emphasize this point. When you have add-ons, and 3rd party sites like TTC, a 'fair price' is reasonable. It is NOT when it takes hours, literally hours, to check for prices in all the traders.

Between this and the 14 days being too short for countries with reasonable vacation policies, it really shows just how much ZoS is focused on PC-NA. The appearance that EU and consoles are simply not included in their calculations is very strong.

Even the TTA price is not necessarily reasonable.

I saw this when I was searching for Bolstered gear for my Tank Azandar. TTC claimed 8-10K was a good price for the items, yet the only sales I could find for many pieces as 10x that. Thus the TTC data is low.

I went to 10-20 of the sites it noted with prices closer to what it said was reasonable - all were sold out, no matter if they were even seen 5 minutes before.

Only a central in-game source could provide accurate data and we do not have that now.

well, with TTC you can already see what a central service can do, the "suggested" price was 8-10k, you went to all the locations that it showed had listings for around that but they were sold out, and the only ones you found for 10x the price

people were using that buying the "cheap" ones and then relisting at the higher price which is why you found the ones that were listed for 10x what the suggested price was

it would be significantly worse with a much more live-data central sales house because you could just search for item, filter low price listed first, buy up everything under a certain amount and then relist for 10-100x what you paid for it

Except it doesn't work that way in games with a large central marketplace. The counter-balance is that those central market systems have little to no restrictions or limits as with ESO, thus the volume of items sold and the velocity of sales is much, much higher.

Here that works because there are players with too much time on their hands able to arbitrage the price of items listed in low-ish quantities (mostly due to the highly constrained market with limited selling slots coupled with the distributed nature of traders) by buying anything posted at the low end, then relisting at a markup and have a very good chance someone will eventually throw their hands up and say 'screw this running around wasting time looking for the item at a better price' and just buy their overpriced wares.

Necrotech_Master

Dawnblade wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

"Fair pricing" is a false argument especially when you have no way to find out a good price as the system is now, especially on console.

I want to emphasize this point. When you have add-ons, and 3rd party sites like TTC, a 'fair price' is reasonable. It is NOT when it takes hours, literally hours, to check for prices in all the traders.

Between this and the 14 days being too short for countries with reasonable vacation policies, it really shows just how much ZoS is focused on PC-NA. The appearance that EU and consoles are simply not included in their calculations is very strong.

Even the TTA price is not necessarily reasonable.

I saw this when I was searching for Bolstered gear for my Tank Azandar. TTC claimed 8-10K was a good price for the items, yet the only sales I could find for many pieces as 10x that. Thus the TTC data is low.

I went to 10-20 of the sites it noted with prices closer to what it said was reasonable - all were sold out, no matter if they were even seen 5 minutes before.

Only a central in-game source could provide accurate data and we do not have that now.

well, with TTC you can already see what a central service can do, the "suggested" price was 8-10k, you went to all the locations that it showed had listings for around that but they were sold out, and the only ones you found for 10x the price

people were using that buying the "cheap" ones and then relisting at the higher price which is why you found the ones that were listed for 10x what the suggested price was

it would be significantly worse with a much more live-data central sales house because you could just search for item, filter low price listed first, buy up everything under a certain amount and then relist for 10-100x what you paid for it

Except it doesn't work that way in games with a large central marketplace. The counter-balance is that those central market systems have little to no restrictions or limits as with ESO, thus the volume of items sold and the velocity of sales is much, much higher.

Here that works because there are players with too much time on their hands able to arbitrage the price of items listed in low-ish quantities (mostly due to the highly constrained market with limited selling slots coupled with the distributed nature of traders) by buying anything posted at the low end, then relisting at a markup and have a very good chance someone will eventually throw their hands up and say 'screw this running around wasting time looking for the item at a better price' and just buy their overpriced wares.

if it was a true central market, it would be worse

people would just have all the listings in one place, the listings could be like 500g each for something to like random 1 mil listings

now a vast majority (80-90%) would be probably 500-1000g, it would be extremely easy for another person to come in and buy up every listing for 1000g or less, so the only ones left were oddballs of say 50k or higher, then said person could relist all of the ones they bought for 50k, and that would be the "new price" because anything sold less than that would get bought and relisted for 50k

the only time ive seen a central market work OK is when its like a blind bid system

player 1 lists an item for 500g, but other players cannot see what value its listed at, just the last 5 sales occurred at
player 2 posts a buy order for 500g trying to get a better price than whats listed, this would then fulfill the sale price of player 1

i liked that system because i could be lazy and just list all my items for sale for 1 currency unit, paying virtually nothing in listing fees, and still receive 50,000 currency on a sale because that was what the buy order was posted at lol, my 1 currency listing would go to whoever posted a buy order first with however much they were willing to pay. buyers could not sort by price to only buy the cheapest, they could just request to buy the items at lower than the last 5 sales and hope someone listed them low lol

i never had to "figure out" what a rough price was because it was a blind system, though if i wanted to guarantee a minimum amount i could list closer to what the last 5 sales occurred at, though it would cost me more in listing fees

was that system immune to flippers? of course not, because the flipper could still sit at one spot and do all the market management without moving, list a ton of lowball bits relist items at higher minimum buy prices and eventually the sales history would show the increase

JanTanhide

Definitely NOT a good idea. Now if it doesn't sell within 14 days and we want to put it up for sale again we pay another listing fee.

DO NOT DO THIS! I have items that don't sell until the very last week of the 30 day listing sometimes.

SilverBride

JanTanhide wrote: »

Now if it doesn't sell within 14 days and we want to put it up for sale again we pay another listing fee.

These are the kinds of things that happen when players ask for things like more gold sinks.

KlauthWarthog

This is more like a patience sink than a gold sink.

Lauranae

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

ZoS is pruning accounts that have been idle for 30 days.

The change to the budget is some manager asking "how can we reduce our storage overhead?"

Ooooh, I think you're on to something there.
But aren't idle accounts moved into "cold storage" anyway? Maybe this is an interim solution?
This doesn't quote any ZoS employees, but the cold storage comments are by pretty knowledgeable players.

That's why I said "pruning" - just trimming as much of your account as possible without putting it in cold storage.

But I wouldn't be surprised if they also reduce the length of the inactive period before putting you on ice...

Not only that, but its a way to force player to play one game mainly, as if not, they risk to loose mails.
Before we had some guild trader asking us to be present for some time at the risk of beeing kicked, and now we have the game leaders force us to be present on game more than before.

Personally, i already left guilds and play with a lot of fun without any rules, so i will just remove my hirelings, and gather a little more. And when i will be tired enough of ZOS attitude i will just go away for the time i want.

I just renewed my subs on two other games, which i play for as long and more of ESO, and in which the communication is opened and honest.
As for ESO, i did few PTS as i am not good enough for analysing all the changes, but i just removed completely the PTS folder, and will never ever go on again. Why spend time on PTS when i need to be at least 14 days in to watch my mails.....

Czeri

That's pretty clever, actually. It'll more than double the limited gold-sink of listing fees.

virtus753

Czeri wrote: »

That's pretty clever, actually. It'll more than double the limited gold-sink of listing fees.

Only for items that take longer than 14 days to sell.

If the things I list sell within the week that the "vast majority" of sold items take to move, then I have no need to relist them and will not pay any more in listing fees than I did before.

If I list things that do not sell in 30 days right now, then yes my listing fees will slightly more than double if I keep relisting them at prices that don't sell.

VisitHammerfell

allochthons wrote: »

This is an APPALLINGLY bad idea.

Using the trading guild system on console is already incredibly time consuming.
I spend literally hours every week keeping 3 guild trader memberships full: 1 capital, 1 secondary (Vivec right now, sometimes Grahtwood), and 1 third tier. Most of what I sell is motifs, furniture blueprints, and overland gear. It usually takes a week or 3 to sell, because those aren't high-volume items like potions, materials, or food. My Clockwork Reliquary runebox sold after 45 days. Timbercrow usually takes 2-3 months. And those items are at competitive (albeit very expensive) prices.

If I have to relist things twice as often, I simply WON'T.

PLEASE DON'T MAKE THIS CHANGE.

I'm the same way. 1 Mournhold 1 Vivec City/Elden Root guild (35k in combined weekly fees). Almost exclusively selling motifs, plans, and overland/pvp gear. Ocassionally a lux flip or something (Azure Plasm cage took at least 2 listings). This is just going to lead to people massively undercutting, and less money made, and still having to pay the Mournhold Mafia's 25k fees. It's annoying as hell having to price check things in 1-5 cities at all those traders before listing as we don't have addons, no way in hell am I doing that every 2 weeks. The only gear that insantly sells like mats would be something super meta and on trait during Mayhem. Listed an Aetheric Cipher on EU and dreading the thought of having to relist something like that with a 12k fee

This feels like console players being punished so PC NA can have prices reduced

twev

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

This is an APPALLINGLY bad idea.

Using the trading guild system on console is already incredibly time consuming.
I spend literally hours every week keeping 3 guild trader memberships full: 1 capital, 1 secondary (Vivec right now, sometimes Grahtwood), and 1 third tier. Most of what I sell is motifs, furniture blueprints, and overland gear. It usually takes a week or 3 to sell, because those aren't high-volume items like potions, materials, or food. My Clockwork Reliquary runebox sold after 45 days. Timbercrow usually takes 2-3 months. And those items are at competitive (albeit very expensive) prices.

If I have to relist things twice as often, I simply WON'T.

PLEASE DON'T MAKE THIS CHANGE.

I'm the same way. 1 Mournhold 1 Vivec City/Elden Root guild (35k in combined weekly fees). Almost exclusively selling motifs, plans, and overland/pvp gear. Ocassionally a lux flip or something (Azure Plasm cage took at least 2 listings). This is just going to lead to people massively undercutting, and less money made, and still having to pay the Mournhold Mafia's 25k fees. It's annoying as hell having to price check things in 1-5 cities at all those traders before listing as we don't have addons, no way in hell am I doing that every 2 weeks. The only gear that insantly sells like mats would be something super meta and on trait during Mayhem. Listed an Aetheric Cipher on EU and dreading the thought of having to relist something like that with a 12k fee

This feels like console players being punished so PC NA can have prices reduced

It isn't going to be kittens and sunshine on PC, either.
I really don't think they have thought this through to a logical conclusion.
There are so many issues they're shrugging off and expecting players to just kneel and acquiesce.
Maybe it's another tactic to goad legacy players into just quitting, or at least quitting participation in the trading aspect of the game.

Jaraal

TheImperfect wrote: »

Honestly I personally feel like this is a good move, it does seem mostly that it either sells quickly for the majority of items and just sits hogging a trader slot if it doesn't sell and I can just process my items that are unwanted quicker.

You will process items the same way as always, only you will be forced to remove them after 14 days instead of voluntarily doing it.

You lose the listing fee either way.

Also, listing something for 30 days or listing it for 14 days twice and then 2 days the third time has the same impact on the server. The only change is now ZOS is generating THREE mails on your behalf instead of one.

Think about it like this: You list one item for 30 days, your impact on the server is one item, for 30 days, and one mail after that time period. With the new changes, within that 30 day period you will now have 1 item listed three times for 14, 14, and two days. The only difference is that now you have two extra mails generated that did not exist before, on top of the third mail at the end of the third listing. So, the total impact on the server will be considerably more data heavy than it is currently.

ClowdyAllDay

furiouslog wrote: »

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

So you expect us to believe that the guild traders and the mail are whats responsible for bad server performance?

Really?

Is that some kind of toilet pokemon?

what country are you from? i want to avoid visiting there if your toilets look like that... def not where i wish to poo or pee...

Wildberryjack

Ok, then you need to halve the fee to list.

Drammanoth

Sometimes we don't ask ZOS for changes, but they still implement them.

To this day, had anyone asked them about the Sticker Book? About curated sets items? Don't recall, and yet they have implemented these changes - and PRAISE ZOS for this.

After 3 weeks the posted items lose value, not to mention during some events.

Half a month? A BRILLIANT IDEA. This will boos the economy. What is it that people are waiting for - for prices to be cheaper after three weeks? If you see an item, buy it and be done with it.

Drammanoth

huntgod_ESO wrote: »

It will actually create massive deflation...as listers are going to be far more aggressive to push prices down so they can get faster sales.

Haven't some people been complaining about ingame INFLATION of prices?

You are more than likely correct, thus if it does happen, prices will become affordable again. Columbines, platinum dust, etc.

SilverBride

I don't see how this will do anything to listing prices. Most of my items sell in one day and those that take longer still rarely go past a week. Why would this make me drop prices?

DoofusMax

The part that I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We understand that this may not be the news some of you were hoping to hear, and want to provide context for this decision. Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.

As a very part-time trader, my line of reasoning runs: (1) I don't want/need that item, (2) list it for sale on guild trader, (3) keep fingers crossed that I've priced it well, (4) IF 3 is not true (overpriced), then relist ELSE (4) collect gold

Note that server load is mostly unaffected in this reasoning. If it sells, fine. If it doesn't sell, then it generates subsequent listings until it sells because #1 is always true (if it's something I want/need, I don't list it).

On the whole, bad means to achieve stated ends.