Guild trader listings being changed to 14 days??!?

FlopsyPrince

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

I don't see why this is a problem at all, if something takes longer than a week you probably listed it too expensive.

For me it's a nice QoL to have things expire faster, since I only sell things when I play more or less regularly. So for me it just means I won't have to take them off myself to relist.

Other MMO games I've played give you 48 hours (!) to sell, s I always thought a month was a bit ridiculous. Two weeks seems decent to me, and still pretty long in comparison.

Why/how is it a QoL change? (For the better, it does change the quality of life for many, but not in a good direction.)

I list things at a price I think is good (off TTC on the PC, some guessing on the PS5) and let it run.

Though remember that this not only impacts the listing time, but also the time you have to collect any mail related to successful or expired listings. That can be a major hit if anyone takes an extended break.

It is happening, but don't justify it as being done for the players as it is something ZOS is doing for internal reasons.

QoL changes should make playing the game better, not worse.

DigiAngel

Honestly it seems like just another bandaid on the real problem: better/more servers.

DUTCH_REAPER

This should help combat inflation pricing. If you keep getting items sent back to you for not selling, typically you will either list it again for much less or use it/hold it.

FlopsyPrince

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

This should help combat inflation pricing. If you keep getting items sent back to you for not selling, typically you will either list it again for much less or use it/hold it.

Making some items even harder to find!

Alinhbo_Tyaka

allochthons wrote: »

PC folks who have seen this change, and the change in mail, go live, how much information about it was given In Game? Are people who don't engage in the forums and who don't reach the patch notes going to be taken by surprise 14 days from now, as @h9dlb predicts?

I've seen no in-game notifications for either of the mail system changes (14 day expiration or new auto delete after receiving items). So I suspect there will be a lot of surprised players.

majulook

The guilds I am in have been sending out mail for the past week with information about the change.

I am most likely just going to drop at least one trade guild.when the first 14 day mark hits.
My heavy trading days are provably over. I have over 150 mil in gold, 25789 writ vouchers, 1117 Undaunted keys, and lots of unopened Transmute Geodes. so at this point selling is not a big deal.

Going to maybe find a few social guilds that do things during the times i play, or maybe just solo it and see how things go.

FlopsyPrince

I am sure my guilds have told me, but I don't pay attention to those messages much. I just pay my dues each week and list what I can.

Fiktius

I have already told before what I think about this change, so I won't go into that now.
However I have a question, which is related to this new change:

I have here a picture with vanilla UI, where I tried to sort items by getting newest listed items on top of the list.
I usually use Awesome Guild Store - addon, but in case of clarity, issue displayed with vanilla UI so no addons can be blamed here. Could it be really true that nobody really listed anything in busiest guild trader on PC EU within 3 days or are these listings exactly newest and that 27 days is just misleading UI bug? Or is the entire search with time based filter broken?

kringled_1

Fiktius wrote: »

I have already told before what I think about this change, so I won't go into that now.
However I have a question, which is related to this new change:

I have here a picture with vanilla UI, where I tried to sort items by getting newest listed items on top of the list.
I usually use Awesome Guild Store - addon, but in case of clarity, issue displayed with vanilla UI so no addons can be blamed here. Could it be really true that nobody really listed anything in busiest guild trader on PC EU within 3 days or are these listings exactly newest and that 27 days is just misleading UI bug? Or is the entire search with time based filter broken?

Those items are the last listings before this patch that still had a 30 day expiration. Everything that's been listed since the patch will be at 14 days when first listed or lower. After a couple of weeks time based filters will be working more normally but for now things will be a bit odd.

Fiktius

@kringled_1
I see now, thank you for quick reply!
That explanation makes sense, even when it's quite annoying when trying to find newest deal opportunities from traders.
I guess I could just tone down trading meantime and just wait till filtering works better again.

Yamenstein

allochthons wrote: »

From this comment:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hello, All. We have received a lot of feedback regarding the changes to the Mail expiration timers on the PTS. We understand the concerns raised around shortening Mail timers, specifically in instances where a player may need to step away from the game for an extended period of time, and that with this shortened window they may miss items or gold coming from Guild Traders through the Mail.

As we reviewed this feedback and investigated those concerns, our data revealed that the vast majority of items listed at Guild Traders sell within a week. If an item does not sell by then, it typically doesn't sell during that listing period. In light of this, Guild Trader listings will now be reduced from 30 to 14 days. All Mail expiration timers will remain at 14 days. To be clear, the timer for Mail expiration will be 14 days from when the item sells or is returned to the player. A Guild Trader listing will expire 14 days from when an item is listed. This will affect all new Mail items and Guild Trader listings from U42 launch onward.

We understand that this may not be the news some of you were hoping to hear, and want to provide context for this decision. Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.

If you plan on being away from the game for an extended period, we recommend taking those personal plans into account when making decisions regarding Guild Trader listings.

We hope this information has been insightful, and as always, you are welcome to leave additional feedback in the PTS section of the Forums.

Here is a better idea. Improve your database with better storage and compute resources.
Improve your underlying infrastructure and tech stack.

Next change - reduce inventory and bank space.
Data analytics show that majority of players tend to scrap/dismantle/bank items before they reach 200 inventory capacity. Due to this we have reduced inventory space to 200. It allows for improvements in server performance by reducing strain in the database.

FlopsyPrince

Yamenstein wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

From this comment:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hello, All. We have received a lot of feedback regarding the changes to the Mail expiration timers on the PTS. We understand the concerns raised around shortening Mail timers, specifically in instances where a player may need to step away from the game for an extended period of time, and that with this shortened window they may miss items or gold coming from Guild Traders through the Mail.

As we reviewed this feedback and investigated those concerns, our data revealed that the vast majority of items listed at Guild Traders sell within a week. If an item does not sell by then, it typically doesn't sell during that listing period. In light of this, Guild Trader listings will now be reduced from 30 to 14 days. All Mail expiration timers will remain at 14 days. To be clear, the timer for Mail expiration will be 14 days from when the item sells or is returned to the player. A Guild Trader listing will expire 14 days from when an item is listed. This will affect all new Mail items and Guild Trader listings from U42 launch onward.

We understand that this may not be the news some of you were hoping to hear, and want to provide context for this decision. Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.

If you plan on being away from the game for an extended period, we recommend taking those personal plans into account when making decisions regarding Guild Trader listings.

We hope this information has been insightful, and as always, you are welcome to leave additional feedback in the PTS section of the Forums.

Here is a better idea. Improve your database with better storage and compute resources.
Improve your underlying infrastructure and tech stack.

Next change - reduce inventory and bank space.
Data analytics show that majority of players tend to scrap/dismantle/bank items before they reach 200 inventory capacity. Due to this we have reduced inventory space to 200. It allows for improvements in server performance by reducing strain in the database.

I am sure they would benefit greatly from some serious refactoring. But I won't hold my breath waiting for that!

Necrotech_Master

h9dlb wrote: »

These forums are going to be log jammed on 19th June when loads of people have lost all their stuff and gold in the mail

how would you lose everything on june 19th?

even if you listed something on june 3 (release day), it gets 2 weeks on the trader and 2 weeks in your mail, which is 28 days

so your saying you would have to basically either not login at all, or not pay any attention to your in game happenings (mail or sales) for almost an entire month

Khrogo

This is a really bad idea. They system was fine as it was. People selling expensive, slow-moving items are being punished.

MJallday

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not dying. They are just trying to improve server performance.

Why just now? Systems are faster than ever. Needing to hyper manage this type of storage raises serious questions.

I am sure they believe the changes will help, but I have not seen this kind of change ever help with large systems and I have worked on many.

It’s almost like it’s a software problem not a hardware one.. but I’ve been banging that drum for about 8 years now

LaintalAy

If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.

People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.

reazea

.

Yamenstein wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

From this comment:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hello, All. We have received a lot of feedback regarding the changes to the Mail expiration timers on the PTS. We understand the concerns raised around shortening Mail timers, specifically in instances where a player may need to step away from the game for an extended period of time, and that with this shortened window they may miss items or gold coming from Guild Traders through the Mail.

As we reviewed this feedback and investigated those concerns, our data revealed that the vast majority of items listed at Guild Traders sell within a week. If an item does not sell by then, it typically doesn't sell during that listing period. In light of this, Guild Trader listings will now be reduced from 30 to 14 days. All Mail expiration timers will remain at 14 days. To be clear, the timer for Mail expiration will be 14 days from when the item sells or is returned to the player. A Guild Trader listing will expire 14 days from when an item is listed. This will affect all new Mail items and Guild Trader listings from U42 launch onward.

We understand that this may not be the news some of you were hoping to hear, and want to provide context for this decision. Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.

If you plan on being away from the game for an extended period, we recommend taking those personal plans into account when making decisions regarding Guild Trader listings.

We hope this information has been insightful, and as always, you are welcome to leave additional feedback in the PTS section of the Forums.

Here is a better idea. Improve your database with better storage and compute resources.
Improve your underlying infrastructure and tech stack.

Next change - reduce inventory and bank space.
Data analytics show that majority of players tend to scrap/dismantle/bank items before they reach 200 inventory capacity. Due to this we have reduced inventory space to 200. It allows for improvements in server performance by reducing strain in the database.

This situation of too much bloat from materials and items is ZOS' own creation. How many different materials for all the different crafts are truly unnecessary? Just think how many different provisioning ingredients there are alone. Add to that all the different trait stones. Add to that all the different levels of metals, woods and clothing materials.

ZOS created this bloat. Now they are restricting our mail and guild store usage as a result.

Instead of making us pay the price for what is fundamentally bad design, most likely done on purpose to encourage eso+ subs, ZOS should look at reducing some of these excess materials from the game.

reazea

LaintalAy wrote: »

If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.

People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.

I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.

dkblight

Khrogo wrote: »

This is a really bad idea. They system was fine as it was. People selling expensive, slow-moving items are being punished.

They are following Amazon's example by forcing sellers to reduce prices on items or don't sell using our services. I have a rare item no longer in production for 20+ years, everyone else sells for 500, I try to sell at 300, Amazon is like too high, please lower to like 100 or less as we compare values to 20 years ago values but present day.

Got a rare design no one farms, worth 1.3mil, with maybe 1% of the over all community looking for it as they know it exists. could take 25 days to sell or need a relist after 30 days at a 113k listing fee. Sure when it sells on day 46 it will be less than 1 mil after taxes and dual listing fees, but 14 days is an additional 226k in listing fees lost.

The probability that it sells if the price was reduced to say 1 mil, still factors the fact only 1% are looking for it and it still would take 46 days to sell. Reducing it to like 500k means someone would buy it who probably had no idea it exists, so for the people searching for that rare drop in agony themselves are also being punished as now some rando bought it for a bargain unbeknownst to them.

It's like selling collectible statues, Brand name statues sell for like 500+, but this 14 day to push people to reduce pricing on items or pay the fees to sell your item at rarity/quality price, is like demanding us to sell quality stuff for wish dot com prices.

In terms of all that is fair, this is not fair.

Reduce the time on market, reduce the price to list. That would be fair.

Sorry if my examples don't hit dead on, but you should get the idea.

AD_Tuggo

I guess I'll just sell my stuff in chat.

dkblight

I do actually, as a hobby, buy and resell items online in RL. I've been doing so since 2006. I have stuff from 2006 I'm still trying to sell for a profit, as the money is a hobby side gig and that's how I do my sales in most games.

I list either at ATT/MM last sold price (updated daily, in 5 higher end trade guilds) or just under/over lowest TTC (also updated daily via the .exe program), then leave it.

My end game is Gold, having copious amounts of Gold collected by buying low/selling high, crafting, finding items, grinding for rare drops, etc. If I wanted fast gold, I'd sell crowns, but where is the "Merchant Soul" in doing it that way?

Not to name drop another game, but GW II is a game I started like in 2013, I played for a couple years, then stopped (core friends dragged me to BDO/AA). I logged on maybe 3-4 years ago and I had all my sales, my buy purchases that I listed back then, 7 birthday boxes, and all the stuff that came with events for 7 years.

Don't get me wrong or anything, ESO is my HOME. I migrated games and set roots in ESO back in 2017...went back to GW II due to my core friends parting ways from ESO. I came back to ESO full on and haven't left since.

My honest guess is changing the mail system and listing system was far easier than to actually fix the probably as just like changing one thing affected the ability to block, my guess is this change had the least chain reaction bad stuff.

It's like Disney robotics, most of those robots were made decades ago, the parts aren't even made anymore. So when they break down, repairing them is a challenge as one the parts have to be custom made in-house and two the coding...the people who coded it either retired or left the company years ago and no one has any idea how it was done. So fixing the code is a needle in a haystack as it can cause news issues elsewhere in the robot. Presumably the base game coding has been patches so many times, fixing the core issue would mean a WHOLE new base game reprogramming with all patch work updates that will not fit the budget.

Still, understanding all that, reducing/removing the listing fee is an easy solution to appeal to this situation with little repercussions to the coding. Although I have no clue if it is even possible. Like stack-able maps may be so embedded in the base coding, it's easier to create a storage book that stores stacked treasure maps as all new coding that can be accessed even in cryodill.

FlopsyPrince

dkblight wrote: »

It's like Disney robotics, most of those robots were made decades ago, the parts aren't even made anymore. So when they break down, repairing them is a challenge as one the parts have to be custom made in-house and two the coding...the people who coded it either retired or left the company years ago and no one has any idea how it was done. So fixing the code is a needle in a haystack as it can cause news issues elsewhere in the robot. Presumably the base game coding has been patches so many times, fixing the core issue would mean a WHOLE new base game reprogramming with all patch work updates that will not fit the budget.

While Disney is facing challenges because of this (and other serious factors), they have to solve it if they want people to keep paying for what they offer.

The same is true for ZOS. People will gradually leave if they do not. Perhaps not as quickly as a Disney Theme Park, but people will leave.

It is quite likely that management has decided it is worth living with that and not paying the larger cost of really fixing things. That is why the "recent" hardware upgrades didn't change a whole lot for the better, likely because costs were constrained far too much.

LaintalAy

reazea wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.

People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.

I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.

The listing fee is a percentage that applies whether the 3.5 Million is sold as one sale; or across hundreds of smaller sales. We all pay the same rate and ultimately the same amount of fees.

Even if you spend 100000 to list the item before it sells, who cares? You still have 3.4-3.9 million left over. Presumably you found this item, so it cost you nothing to acquire. However, flippers may now have a real problem, as the fee costs will now add to the overall cost.

LaintalAy

AD_Tuggo wrote: »

I guess I'll just sell my stuff in chat.

For single, big ticket items, then yep. You can also be in the zones where your potential buyers are more likely to be.

ProudMary

LaintalAy wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.

People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.

I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.

The listing fee is a percentage that applies whether the 3.5 Million is sold as one sale; or across hundreds of smaller sales. We all pay the same rate and ultimately the same amount of fees.

Even if you spend 100000 to list the item before it sells, who cares? You still have 3.4-3.9 million left over. Presumably you found this item, so it cost you nothing to acquire. However, flippers may now have a real problem, as the fee costs will now add to the overall cost.

Everyone who relies on guild traders as their primary source of income in game cares.

The more times a person has to list an item the more they have to pay to sell that item. That means the player makes less gold, especially on big ticket items. With an item like an aetherial cypher that could add up to 200,000-400,000 less take home profit from selling the item. So everyone who sells in guild stores care because it really adds up.

Jhava

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

h9dlb wrote: »

These forums are going to be log jammed on 19th June when loads of people have lost all their stuff and gold in the mail

how would you lose everything on june 19th?

even if you listed something on june 3 (release day), it gets 2 weeks on the trader and 2 weeks in your mail, which is 28 days

so your saying you would have to basically either not login at all, or not pay any attention to your in game happenings (mail or sales) for almost an entire month

For expiry yes. However sales start the 14 day countdown as soon as sold. So things listed and sold on day 1 could go poof on day 15 for casuals not paying attention.

katanagirl1

LaintalAy wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.

People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.

I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.

The listing fee is a percentage that applies whether the 3.5 Million is sold as one sale; or across hundreds of smaller sales. We all pay the same rate and ultimately the same amount of fees.

Even if you spend 100000 to list the item before it sells, who cares? You still have 3.4-3.9 million left over. Presumably you found this item, so it cost you nothing to acquire. However, flippers may now have a real problem, as the fee costs will now add to the overall cost.

Assuming you put no time into finding this item. Time is money.

FlopsyPrince

Collecting mail should be made easier to help in this area. It is a pain on console to collect all the stock emails.

Let me have (on console) something like the PC addon I use to automatically collect all the regular mails.

LaintalAy

ProudMary wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.

People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.

I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.

The listing fee is a percentage that applies whether the 3.5 Million is sold as one sale; or across hundreds of smaller sales. We all pay the same rate and ultimately the same amount of fees.

Even if you spend 100000 to list the item before it sells, who cares? You still have 3.4-3.9 million left over. Presumably you found this item, so it cost you nothing to acquire. However, flippers may now have a real problem, as the fee costs will now add to the overall cost.

Everyone who relies on guild traders as their primary source of income in game cares.

The more times a person has to list an item the more they have to pay to sell that item. That means the player makes less gold, especially on big ticket items. With an item like an aetherial cypher that could add up to 200,000-400,000 less take home profit from selling the item. So everyone who sells in guild stores care because it really adds up.

An item's true value is what it sells for on the day.
Prior to that, it's all speculation.

If I find an item, it cost me nothing. If after selling it, I have 3M gold, then I fail to see how this is a problem.

If everyone in ESO agrees that Aetheric Cipher is "worth 3 - 3.5 million"; then If I place the one I found up for sale at 2Million,
what is the most likely outcome? This:

• It WILL be sold within a period of six hours or so.
• I will have 2M gold that I didn't have 6 hours before.
• Proof that Aethric Cipher is actually only worth 2M gold.

It's that simple. If you choose to relist an incorrectly priced item multiple times at the same fantasy price, then this is not 'sales' but 'gambling', as in: I'll wager another 3.5% listing fee that I can sell this thing FOR WHAT I WANT; and not what it's really worth.

LaintalAy

katanagirl1 wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

If you can't generate in-game gold by selling the free things that you find lying around in the game, then the problem is at your end.

People who know to trade won't have much problem with this change.

I just had to relist an atherial cypher. That is a 3.5-4 million dollar item. These items often do not sell in 14 days due to their high cost/value. So now we have to pay the listing fees twice as often, and those fees don't even go to the guild.

The listing fee is a percentage that applies whether the 3.5 Million is sold as one sale; or across hundreds of smaller sales. We all pay the same rate and ultimately the same amount of fees.

Even if you spend 100000 to list the item before it sells, who cares? You still have 3.4-3.9 million left over. Presumably you found this item, so it cost you nothing to acquire. However, flippers may now have a real problem, as the fee costs will now add to the overall cost.

Assuming you put no time into finding this item. Time is money.

Correct. If you choose to farm this item, then that's your call.
I invest my time in farming things that do sell, rather than items that might sell.

If things don't sell after a second listing, then they're deconned or binned. I'm not wasting any more of my resources.