Guild trader listings being changed to 14 days??!?

Freilauftomate

Instead of taking away stuff from the game all the time, maybe it would be worth a try to just add to the server hardware? Or would that be too expensive?

CGPsaint

Carcamongus wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.

1.) Is the cost to list an item going to be halved since we're effectively going to have to list unsold items twice in order to get the same listing duration for harder to sell items?

2.) If the goal is to reduce strain on the database to improve server performance, wouldn't it make more sense to try and get people to stop listing so much garbage on traders? Maybe slightly increase the value when selling to merchants so that people don't try and sell every single item that they loot on guild traders.

It's comical to pick up some garbage by accident and see TTC has data on it. There's also the style mats for the 8 basic motifs plus Imperial, which crafting merchants sell and people list on guild traders. It puzzles me as to why. Surely someone who knows how to use a guild trader also knows the merchants sell those, right?

To solve some of the garbage problem, maybe make some of them bind on pickup so they can't be listed?

The vast majority of looted items are trash and maybe should be BoP. I would honestly pay double or triple in guild fees to have a trading guild that only allowed members to sell items worth selling. No junk allowed!

Hapexamendios

1. I don't get a lot of stuff back at 30 day limit. I expect more at 14.

2. No mention of lowering listing fees to match new limit. Another negative.

3. The comment about taking listings into account for a personal vacation just comes across as rude to me.

aetherial_heavenn

The 'vast majority' of sales take 'x days' is the claim. I want actual data not fluffy assertions. I want a graph with item values, volumes and time taken, at least provided to major trade guild reps.

I assume ZoS is basing this on actual data. In the absence of this it's just another bunch of assertions by a company no one is inclined to trust to run a data base without a debacle. How this data manipulation will improve actual combat performance and lag is still unclear to me.

I, too, can make some fluffy "lived experience" observations as an average player who meets minimum trade guild requirements but isn't a major trader.

Mats worth under 10k sell quickly on an average trader in Rimmen for example. Crappy green recipes sell at 27 gold to new players within hours. These are the items new players without friends/guilds need to start crafting. Intricates sell for a few 200 gold plus each, same day, at high traffic or middle traders. Good potions the same.

My guess is that these will immediately disappear from most trader listings after the proposed change as people will horde their slots for valuable items. These low cost items are the vast majority of most peoples' every day sales in average guilds. This chump change does not cover big trader bids but they encourage guild traffic and helps non guild and new players access low cost items long term players would otherwise vendor.

On the other hand, gold furnishing recipes worth 300k plus from average traders can take a week or more to sell and the really rare drops worth 1 million plus often take 28 days. Players who trade and flip will wait till the month elapses in case a player relists at a lower price in panic. I sell these on day 27 routinely when it's clear the price is NOT going to force drop due to my item not shifting in a week. This won't change. Flippers will wait til day 13 to purchase. So the volume and time overall for these will just run on a 14 day cycle. As these are rare I can't see how this will improve the data /performance issue. Although the listing fees the player incurs will double.

All which 'data' just as valid as ZoS asserting people use guild listings and mail as storage and that most stuff sells in 14 days without showing us the breakdown. 'Most stuff' being cheap, high volume, of course. Not the items traders and trade guilds make real gold from.

As for rewards of the worthy. I get dozens a day when PvPing. I get one transmute to crack open per day per reward. So I guess I lose all the transmutes I usually open once a day because I will have to open them as received to free up mail in time not open them on the cycle the game rewards me to open them.

Ittrix

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

The 'vast majority' of sales take 'x days' is the claim. I want actual data not fluffy assertions. I want a graph with item values, volumes and time taken, at least provided to major trade guild reps.

I assume ZoS is basing this on actual data

The exact claim is the vast majority of items sell within a week.

Even without data, this says to me the change shouldn't go through.
If the vast majority of items are selling in a week, then that means the extreme minority of items aren't.

Is cracking down on that extreme minority by halving it's list time really going to help server strain? Even if it does help server strain- is it going to help it enough to justify all the QoL complaints players are giving as feedback?
I doubt it.

Change shouldn't go through.

ComboBreaker88

@ZOS_Kevin since the timer for guild listing is being cut in half, is the listing fee also being cut in half to reflect the change?

Actually that's a 54% reduction in listing time.

MasterSpatula

dragonlord500 wrote: »

err wrong section of the forums to discuss this isn't it?

No, it's not. Not everyone gets involved in the PTS, particularly since doing so seems to be a pointless exercise in futility, giving feedback on vital issues that are never acted upon and seeing those same issues going live. I found going on the PTS outright depressing and haven't been on in years.

Not everyone clicks on "Recent" or "Dev Tracker" for navigating this forum, so they won't see Kevin's post.

This isn't a new feature that players can wait to learn about when it goes live. This is a base-game change that many players players will detest, and with ample cause. it increases the nuisance factor of a game with far too much nuisance factor in it already. It is an active, willful, and intentional choice to take something about the game that no one really thinks about and make it worse than it currently is. It is, quite simply, developers choosing to perform a Quality of Life Deterioration rather than a QOL Improvement, and players who don't get involved in the PTS need to know about it and be able to talk about it.

General Discussion is a perfectly appropriate place for this conversation.

However, if history is our guide, the moderators will agree with you, and this thread will go bye-bye. But they will be explicitly wrong to do so.

Desiato

1. This is a punitive response to our feedback.

2. It doesn't actually address the issue.

Let's say I post an item and 5 days later rl makes it impossible for me to play ESO for 3 weeks. On day 7 it sells, and I'll miss out on the gold sent to me.

Or, let's say it doesn't sell by day 14, gets returned to me, but my unexpected 3 weeks away from ESO began on day 10. Then I lose the item!

This is extremely customer unfriendly.

@ZOS_Kevin If this change goes through, the system should place gold from deleted mail in the account's bank and try to place items from deleted mail in the first available free inventory slot. You are changing 10 years of precedence, so you should try very hard to avoid causing players catastrophic losses.

Edit: I also want to add that while most items may sell within 7 days and therefore experienced sellers usually re-list anyway, some extremely expensive items are not relisted with the understanding the buyers will find them via TTC.

wolfie1.0.

huntgod_ESO wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This will tank prices.

Not really, most items do sell within 14 days in some areas they will sell within hours. It's the outlier items that will stick around and the really rare items that will be most impacted but those are all high risk/reward items. At most it will curb inflation.

It will actually create massive deflation...as listers are going to be far more aggressive to push prices down so they can get faster sales.

It will create some deflation, but likely not much. More likely it's going to cause players with more remote traders to lower prices to try to draw players, but main hub prices will likely just slow inflation.

What will change is likely what players list. It's likely that high ticket items and low ticket items may become harder to find.

Rishikesa108

My most precious items are always sold almost at the end of 30 days. Only items of low value have a quick sale in a few days. ZOS wanted to punish traders... they wanted to make sure that to earn something we have to spend double. As if having to pay the trading guilds wasn't enough...

twev

huntgod_ESO wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

This will tank prices.

Not really, most items do sell within 14 days in some areas they will sell within hours. It's the outlier items that will stick around and the really rare items that will be most impacted but those are all high risk/reward items. At most it will curb inflation.

It will actually create massive deflation...as listers are going to be far more aggressive to push prices down so they can get faster sales.

I think a lot more stuff will go straight to trash rather than work one more strategy into the game.
I expect there will be less variety in the guild traders going forward.

This is just one more thing on the 'list of stuff that makes ESO more like a job and less like a game' pile that makes me not only rethink paying for ESO+, but also putting nearly as much time into the game as compared to previous years.
Sunk cost gaming only goes so far before it becomes glaringly obvious to even the most optimistic.

The game has already convinced me to stop making any more game purchases (chapters, etc) that I did in the past. At this point - the game is feeling like more wasted time and effort, in return for less fun than it used to be.
It's just more corporate interference with a game, and 'corporate' never seems to understand games and gamers.

TheImperfect

Honestly I personally feel like this is a good move, it does seem mostly that it either sells quickly for the majority of items and just sits hogging a trader slot if it doesn't sell and I can just process my items that are unwanted quicker.

FlopsyPrince

dmnqwk wrote: »

I think this is a wonderful idea.

They looked at the numbers, then acted without letting individual personal bias taint by people decrying it going 'oh but for ME I will use confirmation bias and a failure to accept this because ONE item out of HUNDREDS sold after longer'.

I am glad they used data and not the personal opinions of the forums.

You know they say that if you torture the numbers they will admit to anything, right?

Caring about your players is far more important than just "following the numbers".

Saying "most items sell in less than 14 days" indicates that many things still take longer. Thus 14 days is only "most things" not all of them.

Unfortunately, the reasoning @ZOS_Kevin presented seems more like justification for their changes than reasoning for them.

So many fight against requests for Quality of Life changes yet changes like these get support. You would think players are only her to give money to ZOS and its employees, not that those parties were here to get rewarded for making the game more enjoyable for players!

FlopsyPrince

Carcamongus wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Based on the data of how quickly items typically sell, the team felt that 30 days for Guild Trader listings was unnecessarily long, and reducing the Mail expiration timers and the Guild Trader listings will allow for improvements in server performance by reducing strain on the database.

1.) Is the cost to list an item going to be halved since we're effectively going to have to list unsold items twice in order to get the same listing duration for harder to sell items?

2.) If the goal is to reduce strain on the database to improve server performance, wouldn't it make more sense to try and get people to stop listing so much garbage on traders? Maybe slightly increase the value when selling to merchants so that people don't try and sell every single item that they loot on guild traders.

It's comical to pick up some garbage by accident and see TTC has data on it. There's also the style mats for the 8 basic motifs plus Imperial, which crafting merchants sell and people list on guild traders. It puzzles me as to why. Surely someone who knows how to use a guild trader also knows the merchants sell those, right?

To solve some of the garbage problem, maybe make some of them bind on pickup so they can't be listed?

They need to adjust their architecture if these items are that much of a problem. I have worked with large databases and the reasoning is very suspicious to me.

SavageTSC

As someone who deals with guild trader sales on a daily basis, I must admit I like this idea, but I really think the listing fee should be reduced to compensate. Potentially having to list an item and pay the fee twice in a 30 day period is an unfair tax on players' coin purses. While the listing fee is small for low priced items, it can get quite expensive having to list higher value items multiple times.

FlopsyPrince

SavageCascadeX0 wrote: »

As someone who deals with guild trader sales on a daily basis, I must admit I like this idea, but I really think the listing fee should be reduced to compensate. Potentially having to list an item and pay the fee twice in a 30 day period is an unfair tax on players' coin purses. While the listing fee is small for low priced items, it can get quite expensive having to list higher value items multiple times.

Listing on the PC with addons is easy. Doing the same on console is a pain. Once again, consoles will be left behind.

TrelNord

ZOS is a for-profit enterprise.

Forcing items out of free, temporary storage (e.g., mail, guild store listings) and back into player inventory encourages ESO+ subscriptions.

This is not science.

katanagirl1

So, if it is stated that the majority of items sell quickly, then why do these changes need to take place?

I would think it would only need to be changed if they did not. Am I missing something?

FlopsyPrince

TrelNord wrote: »

ZOS is a for-profit enterprise.

Forcing items out of free, temporary storage (e.g., mail, guild store listings) and back into player inventory encourages ESO+ subscriptions.

This is not science.

It is not free for many of us.

You are grossly simplifying things.

Tenthirty2

What a great change that no one asked for, what is the point of it?

It already feels like a second job some days when I have to list\relist items, now I get to do it even MORE often.
Wonderful.

twev

TrelNord wrote: »

ZOS is a for-profit enterprise.

Forcing items out of free, temporary storage (e.g., mail, guild store listings) and back into player inventory encourages ESO+ subscriptions.

This is not science.

But players have finite storage, so items in storage or inventory has no relevance to players regarding the quantity of items in storage or inventory.
At best, it would seem that it would just cause more churn in where the items are at any given point, and not in the numbers of items stored or in inventory.
And all that means is that the database would have to be updated more frequently regarding where any given item is at the moment.

ETA: If they had wanted to reduce the size of inventory database - they should let me delete the majority of mounts and pets in my collections, along with lots of other stuff i never wanted and have no desire to ever use.
I'm sure there are plenty of players who would delete a few things that they have to scroll passed without ever wanting to use.

Narvuntien

GIVE ME MORE INVENTORY and/or BANK SPACE!@!1

with so many events a year that give me so much junk, but not so much of junk I want to just delete it and constantly new motifs with new style stones constantly I don't have any bank or inventory space to work with.

I have been dealing with it by juggling stuff through my guild stores and my mail for 60 days, They are directly making things difficult for me.

hiyde

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any significant impact to guild trader sales. I'm not overly concerned but I guess we'll find out!

That said...

As someone else pointed out above, if the vast majority of items sell within a week, then taking this new step would seem to have a negigible impact on improving database issues.

Also, in any MMO I've played where there is a choice for how long to list an item for, the fees are based on length of time. If listing times are being cut by more than 1/2, the listing fee should see a similar cut. Will this be the case, @ZOS_Kevin ?

Whether or not it was intended, this does kinda come across as a punishment for the mail timer feedback. Instead of some sort of middle ground (say, 21 days), they added additional inconvenience for some (dunno how many) traders.

It also seems that the new reality is that anything new that comes to the game will force some older system to give something up for the sake of database limits.

EF321

With server hardware renewed on all platforms, I expected to see improvements for players, not anti-QoL changes...

LaintalAy

allochthons wrote: »

This is an APPALLINGLY bad idea.

Using the trading guild system on console is already incredibly time consuming.
I spend literally hours every week keeping 3 guild trader memberships full: 1 capital, 1 secondary (Vivec right now, sometimes Grahtwood), and 1 third tier. Most of what I sell is motifs, furniture blueprints, and overland gear. It usually takes a week or 3 to sell, because those aren't high-volume items like potions, materials, or food. My Clockwork Reliquary runebox sold after 45 days. Timbercrow usually takes 2-3 months. And those items are at competitive (albeit very expensive) prices.

If I have to relist things twice as often, I simply WON'T.

PLEASE DON'T MAKE THIS CHANGE.

The very harsh reality is that if your item has not sold within seven (7) days, then you have priced it incorrectly. If I see an item that is ageing in the trader, as a purchaser, my gut feeling is that it is over priced. Otherwise it would have been bought by someone else...

Anything that takes 3 months to sell, is overpriced and will only be bought by someone who has nothing better to waste their money on. This is not competitive pricing; if it was competitive, it would sell within 3 days.

For example, I keep finding 'Hardwood' lying around. ATT tells me that the current value (according to the sales data from my five guilds) is '910' gold pieces. Yet if I sell it for 850, two things happen:

• It sells in a few hours
• I find some more later

910 or 850; it is STILL 100% profit, less the listing fee

I'll add that when enough people get tired of waiting and relist their items at prices to ensure that they sell, suddenly the overall prices start to drop. Again, before the recent event, 'Hardwood' was closer to 1100 gold pieces. That looks like a 20% drop in three weeks to me... so much for the perception of inflation..

I agree with that without Awesome Guild Store addon, my life would be hell.
It is high time that ZOS revamped the sales interface to be more like AGS for all platforms

Finally, If players are using the mail system as storage; and if that is causing performance issues, then I'm all for the changes.
Sadly, all the other issues around this change are ones of perception and are manageable.

SeaGtGruff

If it means that players will make an effort to list their goods at reasonable prices that others are actually willing to pay, rather than listing at high prices in the hope that people will be forced to pay that much once all of the reasonably-priced items have been scarfed up (possibly by flippers), then I'm not against it.

FluffyBird

I don't get it. You'll have same amount of items, they just move between players and guild stores more, no? Or do they expect players just to destroy everything that wasn't sold in 14 days?

Ilumia

This is definitely not in the wrong section, I wouldn't have seen if it had been posted in the pts section, and trading is something I spend a lot of time on, so I am frustrated with it and would like to be able to participate in the debate before it goes live. I just suck at combat sadly, so I don't look at the pts section since I don't really understand those parts, though I suppose I really should bother.

This is a sucky change, and this game makes me feel more and more like a junkie instead of a normal person with a hobby.

QoL improvements do not take features away from us, no mattet how they're used by the players. If zos thinks players use them in a way they're not meant for, they should consider what problems people are trying to solve, and look at making improvements there if they even think about making some system poorer (like in this case trading and mail systems).

GuuMoonRyoung

Why change something that is already working fine? Take a look at some other things that don't work correctly or at all.

h9dlb

Micromanagement Online.

This game is bad enough as it is with inventory. After playing since beta (so over 10 years), that's it I'm done when the update comes. Final nail in the coffin