Templar & Necro have been in a very bad spot for 5-6 updates now.

ESO_Nightingale

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

So look lets just talk raw numbers for a second, plain old parse numbers. We not talking content damage right now as thing switch up quite a bit there. We are talking maximum possible under ideal circumstances. So with that in mind - At the absolute tippy top end right now based on vids i could find we have:

Sorc: 141k
Blade: 133k+
Templar: 133k+
Arcanist: 133k+
Warden: 131k+
Dk: 130k+

🥁

Necro: 123k+

whats wrong with this picture?

Dragonknight needs a buff, obviously

So note the part where i say in content is different. Dks in content damage is actually much higher then a blade in pve by virtue of it being nearly impossible to keep a rotation that puts out that kind of damage, its highly inconsistent, sorcs also perform worse i content then dks. Necro in content is still lower then anything else here by a mile. It performs well as a dps in no situation. At the moment for in content the damage goes closer to:

Arc
Dk
Sorc
Templar
Blade
Warden
Necro

1 & 2 swap occasionally depending on the content.

if we're talking about actual performance and not just dummy parsing, let's use ESO Logs. https://www.esologs.com/

Necro DPS isn't below warden in most trials.

i checked all of them.

Warden's output and representation is consistently some of the lowest out of any class. in fact, there's not even any registered parses for dps Warden for sanity's edge at all this patch.

Tyrant_Tim

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

So look lets just talk raw numbers for a second, plain old parse numbers. We not talking content damage right now as thing switch up quite a bit there. We are talking maximum possible under ideal circumstances. So with that in mind - At the absolute tippy top end right now based on vids i could find we have:

Sorc: 141k
Blade: 133k+
Templar: 133k+
Arcanist: 133k+
Warden: 131k+
Dk: 130k+

🥁

Necro: 123k+

whats wrong with this picture?

Dragonknight needs a buff, obviously

So note the part where i say in content is different. Dks in content damage is actually much higher then a blade in pve by virtue of it being nearly impossible to keep a rotation that puts out that kind of damage, its highly inconsistent, sorcs also perform worse i content then dks. Necro in content is still lower then anything else here by a mile. It performs well as a dps in no situation. At the moment for in content the damage goes closer to:

Arc
Dk
Sorc
Templar
Blade
Warden
Necro

1 & 2 swap occasionally depending on the content.

if we're talking about actual performance and not just dummy parsing, let's use ESO Logs. https://www.esologs.com/

Necro DPS isn't below warden in most trials.

i checked all of them.

Warden's output and representation is consistently some of the lowest out of any class. in fact, there's not even any registered parses for dps Warden for sanity's edge at all this patch.

Yeah, Necromancer hits extremely hard but has one of the most difficult rotations with Blastbones being every 3rd ability, not to mention Elemental Catalyst is phenomenal on the class, ensuring there is always at least one Necro DD in group.

Without a doubt Warden is definitely at the bottom of the DPS charts for trials next to Nightblade. There’s nothing they bring to the table as a DD.

I would be in favor of throwing the class Major Brittle instead of Major Protection with a slight damage buff or reduction in ultimate cost to Northern Storm and call it.

Especially now that Arcanists can throw Minor Brittle around like it’s candy, something not even Warden can do without throwing on an Ice Staff.

gariondavey

Fix templar plz

IncultaWolf

gariondavey wrote: »

Fix templar plz

You misspelled necromancer. At least you have major brutality/sorcery, reliable stun, and the strongest execute in the game.
Necro literally has..nothing

Billium813

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Templar is a RP class

For real, if you’re tanking on a Templar right now, you’re a roleplayer. Nothing else to it.

I disagree, I've tanked vet blackrose prison, and most of the vet hardmode dlc dungeons on my templar tank

Yet I’m sure it would have been more beneficial to your group having been a Dragonknight with all of their CC and group buffs, a Warden with their CC and group buffs, or an ult-gen Necromancer with Major Vulnerability.

I can’t imagine the lengths of justification you go through daily getting interrogated by players when they see you’re on a Templar tank in difficult content. You’re literally riding against the current.

Just because you “can” do something, doesn’t mean it’s a great option.

Templar Tanking isn't bad, but it could definitely be improved. Common complaints are that there is no AOE CC, Magicka sustain is difficult, there's no good burst heals, and there is no good group buffs that make Templar Tanking a desirable choice for high level content. However, IMO, the issue is more complex then it appears.

Yes, Templar could be improved, but I think other classes are also being pushed too much. It's common to complain that Templar Tanking is bad because the alternative classes are better. This is valid, but you shouldn't immediately disqualify the comments that Templar Tanking is also able to clear content just because there are other BIS choices.

IMO, the biggest issues with Templar Tanking that ZOS needs to fix are:

1. Lack of good group buffs - The Hybridization issue with Brutality vs Sorcery and their redundancy is a big issue. It makes the conversation more about DK vs Templar, rather then encouraging a mixture. That's not good for the game. On top of that, Templar doesn't really offer anything else to the group. Light Weaver is difficult to proc at 50%, Radiant Aura has been degraded over the years, and Illuminate is often just redundant. We need something good and unique
   • Possible solutions: The Illuminate passive needs to be changed to something more desirable and unique. I'd also like to see the Spear Wall passive become an AOE Minor Protection to allies to help encourage Sun Shield (which is a whole topic in and of itself). Also, maybe good group Heroism would be an option for Dawn's Wrath Prism passive.
2. Magicka sustain - The magicka cost of Cleansing Ritual and Sun Shield in particular are pretty harsh. Well choreographed combat is fluid and mobile. That's punishing for Templar who are basically designed to stand on one place. Having to recast Cleansing Ritual back to back can be way too expensive. The boss ran across the room? Dangit. The boss JUST placed a debuff on you? Dangit. Having to cast Sun Shield multiple times on top of that really saps Magicka quick.
   • Possible solutions: I think the Sacred Ground passive could be improved to help Templar re-apply ground AOE heals as the player shifts them around slightly. Radiant Ward could also be improved to add Minor Maim. This could help with how many times Sun Shield ends up needing to be spammed

> So what about good burst heals and AOE CC?

I know this is controversial, but I am fine with Templar lacking native options for these. Personally, I think it's good when classes have blind spots and need to dip into generic skills, or rely on group members.

For burst healing, this should be better handled by the healer support. Don't be quick to make Tank do everything, this is a multiplayer game for a reason. For AOE CC, ZOS design is more centered on Templar getting single target stuns and AOE movement snares. AOE root would be too much IMO and step outside Templar design. Instead, I'd like to see alternative skills like Time Stop and Fire Rune being improved as viable, generic options for classes that do lack aoe CC support.

boi_anachronism_

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Templar is a RP class

For real, if you’re tanking on a Templar right now, you’re a roleplayer. Nothing else to it.

I disagree, I've tanked vet blackrose prison, and most of the vet hardmode dlc dungeons on my templar tank

Yet I’m sure it would have been more beneficial to your group having been a Dragonknight with all of their CC and group buffs, a Warden with their CC and group buffs, or an ult-gen Necromancer with Major Vulnerability.

I can’t imagine the lengths of justification you go through daily getting interrogated by players when they see you’re on a Templar tank in difficult content. You’re literally riding against the current.

Just because you “can” do something, doesn’t mean it’s a great option.

I've actually never been questioned by any player in-game for playing templar tank. I usually run with 3 dps when I do trifecta runs and it goes very smoothly, I'm even complimented for my tanking abilities often so you might be over exaggerating a bit. Yes, I'm aware it's not the best tank compared to say dragonknight. When I got my first vet sunspire hardmode clear, our tank was a nightblade and I couldn't care less if it was "meta" or not, we got the clear without issue. Also templar can access major vulnerability with turning tide now, and with better uptimes while still giving group warhorn buff

I think what the poster was bringing up it not whether it is "meta" or not but simply that you are choosing a class for a role that is typically consider out of its element to a degree. Each class has roles they are particularly good in and some they perform a lot less efficiently in. We bought up dk so lets go with that for an example. I have heard of folks doing hm trials with dk healers. Can it be done? Sure but you are definitely swimming against the current trying to be effective compared to their use as tank, support dps, or straight damage dps. Essentially not playing to the strengths of the class but rather overcoming its weaknesses. with warden, phenomenal healer, effective tank, hurting overall when it comes to a straight damage build. Necro- since that is the topic- is very support based. Heavily so. Excellent ot, support and healer but not a good full damage class in any respect. Nb's most undeniably weak role is as a tank. It actually makes a really good healer oddly.

Tyrant_Tim

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Let’s make a list of everything Templar doesn’t have that you expect from a tank skill line.

• An in-class taunt, soft or hard.
• An in-class pull.
• An in-class root, either ST or AoE.
• An in-class unique unnamed penetration.
• An in-class health-based burst heal.
• An in-class AoE stun.
• An in-class tank ultimate.

Name one other class with this many things missing from their kit for tank, I’ll be waiting.

@Billium813, sure it wouldn’t be a problem if Templar’s only need areas were those two things, but as you can see on the list, the class is fundamentally lacking a dedicated Tank skill line because both Aedric Spear and Dawn’s Wrath are pushed into Damage.

Also want to add, nobody discredited @IncultaWolf for completing content on his Templar.

When I came back from a 4 year break from Clockwork City to around Waking Flames, the first thing I did was get on my Nord Templar, threw on my old Imperium and Lunar Bastion; and started tanking random vets.

My groups loved all of the warding, as it made difficult content easier, they no longer needed to worry about a healer because I warded and healed them... on a tank.

Later on I started getting messages asking what sets I was running and began receiving criticism, after taking it in stride, I took time to grab Powerful Assault and Crimson Oath and then my experience improved drastically… no longer was I sitting around in boss fights for 7 minutes each, things were dying in 5 or less.

Running those damage buffing sets turned into more content a day, because whatever I did took less time… then it lead me to start wondering how could I get more damage for my group…

I only have a few hours to play each day before I have to get back to sleep for work in the morning, so how could I possible pass the natural barriers to damage from Templar?

Then it dawned on me…

• Dragonknights had Stagger, Major and Minor Brutality plus a Choking Talons synergy?
• Necromancer had Major and Minor Vulnerability and with phenomenal ult gen to keep up Colossus?
• Sorcerer had Crystal Weapon, a completely unique penetration debuff for the group?
• Even Nightblade had access to an AoE Minor Vulnerability…

With the understanding that the better I could get my group’s damage, the more content I can complete in a day, it was an obvious pick of any of those other classes over Templar.

For your casual player that has all the time in the world, or hasn’t begun their repetitious grinding of dungeons and trials for leads and sets, this might not be as big of a problem and they might even enjoy the off-healing of Templar tanking.

Here’s the thing though, Warden still beats Templar, night and day, at Healing! Polar Wind heals much better than anything a tank Templar has because all of their group heals scale with offensive stats.

gariondavey

IncultaWolf wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Fix templar plz

You misspelled necromancer. At least you have major brutality/sorcery, reliable stun, and the strongest execute in the game.
Necro literally has..nothing

I know, I was really just bumping the thread. I don't have a necro but I'm well aware of how it is doing horribly.

FoJul

IncultaWolf wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Fix templar plz

You misspelled necromancer. At least you have major brutality/sorcery, reliable stun, and the strongest execute in the game.
Necro literally has..nothing

Arguing with templar mains, is equivalent to fist fighting a brick wall.

The only argument that templar now has, is that there jabs aren't that good. I have seen personally almost 5 different build archetypes working in pvp for plar. They have the best base stat passives in the game. Unique spell damage, minor sorcery, crit damage, and the built in Way of Fire. There's some more but that's just getting started.

They have a unblockable RANGED stun. They have Beam that actually is the best execute in the game. For group play in PvP, Nova (Whatever morph) is mandatory. PotL and PL as much as templars want to cope, have damage. No it's not assassins will damage, but it cant be roll dodged. Even if you block it, it still does a chunk of damage. A simple javelin can enforce this.

I saw someone make a drain health/drain mag build with Dark Flare. That was actually toxic. There are some jab builds that still do unfair damage.

Templar also has the second best Survivability, and in some cases they are the best. A reliable purge, a reliable burst heal, a sustain heal that heals more if you stand in it, a bubble heal that heals every half second (im pretty sure the only heal in the game that does that)

In a 40k hp DK with damage shields, I was hit by a 15k PotL. No this doesn't happen ALL the time, but it shows its possible. If that was my nightblade (less tankier) it would've easily been 17k+.

Jabs, I won't lie is underwhelming. As far as the rest of the class it doesn't need anything else. We already got to see when templar gets 20k delayed burst that has very little counterplay.

The point of my post, is to say Templar is just fine. However, necro is very very underwhelming, and not a single soul can argue with that.

Billium813

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Let’s make a list of everything Templar doesn’t have that you expect from a tank skill line.

• An in-class taunt, soft or hard.
• An in-class pull.
• An in-class root, either ST or AoE.
• An in-class unique unnamed penetration.
• An in-class health-based burst heal.
• An in-class AoE stun.
• An in-class tank ultimate.

Name one other class with this many things missing from their kit for tank, I’ll be waiting.

@Billium813, sure it wouldn’t be a problem if Templar’s only need areas were those two things, but as you can see on the list, the class is fundamentally lacking a dedicated Tank skill line because both Aedric Spear and Dawn’s Wrath are pushed into Damage.

Also want to add, nobody discredited @IncultaWolf for completing content on his Templar.

IMO, the conversation should be both what Templar is lacking AND how pushed other classes are. Yes, Templar is lacking a bit, as I stated, but the bigger issue is that you are comparing Templar to an amalgamation of all other Tanks. Is DK better? Yes. Is that cause Templar is bad? or is it cause DK is pushed? I think it's a mixture of both things.

IMO, Templar is only a bit behind where I think Tanks in general should be (minus what I stated already) and other classes with "more complete kits" need nerfed instead. IK that isn't popular. *shrug*

[*]An in-class taunt, soft or hard

Arcanist shouldn't have received that in the first place. Taunts should not be class skills IMO since they are too easy for lower level players to pickup without knowing what they are doing. I'v been in too many PUGs where it feels like something is wrong with the taunt, only to find that the DPS is taunting.

[*]An in-class pull

1. DK gets it, that can be a strength of the class
2. Arcanist gets an AOE version. Again... Arcanist is pushed AF
3. There is a fine generic option for ALL other classes in Silver Leash
4. I'v found Void Bash fits in great with Templar's kit already. Yes, it isn't a Skill, but it works well.

[*]An in-class root, either ST or AoE
[*]An in-class AoE stun

Except for Binding Javelin & Toppling Charge. Yes, not good Tank Skills... but they exist as ST stuns.

As I commented, I'm fine with no AOE root/stuns. Templar Skills are more targeted for movement debuffs and hard/soft CC is missing. I'm fine with it, but the bigger issue is that there is no adequate, generic option in Guild or Weapons skills.

[*]An in-class unique unnamed penetration

You're getting awfully specific here...

[*]An in-class health-based burst heal

And what should the healer be doing? Sounds like a skill issue to me.

[*]An in-class tank ultimate

... I'll grant you that Rite of Passage is pretty bad (and I have a sneaking suspicion that Light Weaver is bugged). It's certainly no Magma Armor...

I'm definitely open to a good Tank Ultimate. I am 150% with you on the point that

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

... both Aedric Spear and Dawn’s Wrath are pushed into Damage.

I'd personally like to see Radiant Glory gutted into an interesting Equilibrium design... it'd fix the magicka issue, give Templar some interesting kit, and rebalance how lopsided Dawn's Wrath is on DPS.

Tyrant_Tim

Billium813 wrote: »

[*]An in-class taunt, soft or hard

Arcanist shouldn't have received that in the first place. Taunts should not be class skills IMO since they are too easy for lower level players to pickup without knowing what they are doing. I'v been in too many PUGs where it feels like something is wrong with the taunt, only to find that the DPS is taunting.

Are you forgetting that Chain and Beckoning Armor work as soft taunts?… Arcanist isn’t the only class with a taunt built into it.

Billium813 wrote: »

[*]An in-class unique unnamed penetration

You're getting awfully specific here...

Damage dealers run medium armor as it has no drawbacks, and synergizes best with what you would want for stats. Until we start seeing classes provide unique weapon and spell damage to the group, and the resistances of enemies raised, medium armor will continue to be the only weight used.

It’s also not really specific when you have two classes now with unique penetration sources, both Sorcerer and Arcanist, last I checked Power of the Light doesn’t stack with Pierce Armor, a taunt we’re forced to use because the class doesn’t have one, not even a soft taunt, and Templar already has Minor Protection so the other morph is dead-on-arrival.

Billium813 wrote: »

[*]An in-class health-based burst heal

And what should the healer be doing? Sounds like a skill issue to me.

Careful now, bud. If you want to throw around insults, we can start posting achievements whenever.

You’re not tanking Bahsei HM without a burst heal. Bahsei will chew you up and spit you out. Look at any leaderboard and they will tell you the same thing. You can be fine with mediocrity all you want, doesn’t mean I should be, nor anyone else.

ElderSmitter

1 simple fix. Add Major Berserk to Power of the Light for 6 seconds for Templar. Summon a expanding Beam of Pure Sunlight giving you Major Berserk for 6 seconds.

Tyrant_Tim

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

1 simple fix. Add Major Berserk to Power of the Light for 6 seconds for Templar. Summon a expanding Beam of Pure Sunlight giving you Major Berserk for 6 seconds.

I don’t know if that’s the play.

I would much rather see Major Courage added as a group buff to an ability that we rarely see. It could have a small radius and 6-10 second duration and be completely fine.

Tyrant_Tim

Also want to add, Necromancer needs a complete rework in terms of how their summoning skills work. The fact that there isn’t a skill that summons multiple skeletons to fight in melee, snaring your opponent while mitigating for you, is a blind spot in regards to the class fantasy and what other games provide.

The whole point of raising the dead is having an indisposable army of them to fight with you or for you.

On top of that, the Skeletal Mage base morph needs a slight damage increase and Major Brutality/Sorcery for its duration aswell.

Until Necromancer gets looked at, I insist it’s just playing a bargain Sorcerer themed for Halloween.

Bushido2513

Looking through the comments I see a lot of people that are not being clear about what they want and arguing apples to oranges.

People are just like buff the class but that's not exactly realistic in a game where PVE and PVP balance are tied and the expectations / experiences vary wildly. Maybe just ask for specific changes for specific reasons?

Someone posted a video of templar or necro doing well in fights then someone else is like well those players weren't that good, or that was a certain type of fight, etc

The list goes on, some want 1v1 to be stronger in PVP, some what 1vx to be stronger, some want lower level players to do well on a kit.

Some like me just want to see a more balanced kit that favors player skill.


My point is that it would probably be better for ZOS at least if people said something like please buff X skill because of X specific reason and scenario that I'm encountering or because I believe it's more thematically correct.


For me as a PVP player of many years I can say that there are definitely templars that can straight up kill me so the power and survivability is there when played correctly however I do feel that the class feels uninspired design wise. The jabs animation decision could use a review because many just don't enjoy it vs the old animation. I would also say the javelin works well but feels a bit straight forward and not fun for either side due to not really having counterplay but also not being as fun to look at as say fossilize. Also it just straight up puts you into a routine combo without any fun of counterplay

Everyone's opinion will vary but I'm just giving examples in saying that I think templar is decently strong just not very fun to play. Also I don't think any of my thoughts would affect too much of pve. I really don't play plar in pve as much though its' one of my go to characters for easier play in pve.

QuasiGumbo

FoJul wrote: »

In a 40k hp DK with damage shields, I was hit by a 15k PotL. No this doesn't happen ALL the time, but it shows its possible. If that was my nightblade (less tankier) it would've easily been 17k+.
.

This is such a far-reaching edge case. The amount of work and luck to make this work makes this negligible. The amount of damage you'd have to spec along with crit damage then building that damage in a 6second window and getting a lucky crit on the Potl pop is literally no different than throwing a handful of rocks at a cup and hoping you get one in from 10 feet away.

The dude you fought, literally has only hit this level once, and it was on you, and it hasn't happened since. You know full well how much time they put in on templar and to make this statement is pretty disingenuous.

Saying Templar is fine, is like saying swallow soul is fine.

Bushido2513

QuasiGumbo wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

In a 40k hp DK with damage shields, I was hit by a 15k PotL. No this doesn't happen ALL the time, but it shows its possible. If that was my nightblade (less tankier) it would've easily been 17k+.
.

This is such a far-reaching edge case. The amount of work and luck to make this work makes this negligible. The amount of damage you'd have to spec along with crit damage then building that damage in a 6second window and getting a lucky crit on the Potl pop is literally no different than throwing a handful of rocks at a cup and hoping you get one in from 10 feet away.

The dude you fought, literally has only hit this level once, and it was on you, and it hasn't happened since. You know full well how much time they put in on templar and to make this statement is pretty disingenuous.

Saying Templar is fine, is like saying swallow soul is fine.

Yet if I search YT there are no shortages of templar doing well in PVP. It's actually fine to say templar is fine depending on your expectation.

Now if you want templar to be DK or even NB then that's a different story but those classes are a bit overdone at the moment if you ask me so I hesitate to use them as a benchmark.

So what exactly do you want from templar in order for it to feel good for you?

QuasiGumbo

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

And no one quitting if they buffed necro, hardly anyone runs it compared to other classes. They would jump for friggin joy. Id love to use my cro for more then a buff [snip]. I got so many friends whose cro's are collecting dust right now while they wait for a change that makes it a least somewhat viable again.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Like this is the entirety of the leaderboard for Endless Archive on the PTS every other class has a minimum of 50 users on their leader boards. This just helps iterate your point.

IncultaWolf

QuasiGumbo wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

And no one quitting if they buffed necro, hardly anyone runs it compared to other classes. They would jump for friggin joy. Id love to use my cro for more then a buff [snip]. I got so many friends whose cro's are collecting dust right now while they wait for a change that makes it a least somewhat viable again.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Like this is the entirety of the leaderboard for Endless Archive on the PTS every other class has a minimum of 50 users on their leader boards. This just helps iterate your point.

LOL #2 is @Dekrypted I recognize the in-game name from being on the pts earlier

boi_anachronism_

I dont know a lot of arc tanks that use uncanny rune. Its kinda just used for pvp from what ive seen. Most choose to run the morph with brittle instead and just use leash. The buff completely outweighs the taunt when i can simply run void bash. I really dont need it and i honestly wouldnt care if they gutted it as far as im concerned. And why does it matter if they have an in class taunt. A few classes have a tuant of some kind. Honestly not a big deal tbh. This is quickly becoming a "this class doesnt have it so none should" kinda thread... i mean templars have a class purge. Should they not cause other classes dont. Im baffled by this line of reasoning

KainedED

Hi, so just caught up with the thread. Just putting this from the perspective of someone who plays both templar and necromancer a lot in pvp. I do extremely well with both and I see there are a lot of Necro vs templar sentiment.

That shouldn't be the case the expectation should be for both classes to do well, and I can admit Templar is in a far better position than necromancer however, that’s not to say the class is not suffering. At the moment it may have a ranged stun starting with a high cost, and one of the best defensive kits in the game. however, it’s offensive capabilities, lack greatly holding it back.

You can find success, but almost every build entirely relies off other skill lines, not even tied to Templar at all. The only exception to this tends to be beam where almost 70% of the classes offensive capabilities have been smashed into similar to jabs pre-update, 35.

Templar need a defensive Nerf as well, as well as restructuring of most of their offensive skills, or redistribution of damage to make it Competitive. most of the offensive skills in the Templar line, could best be described as lukewarm.

Don’t mistake hitting meteor with biting javelin and beam for successful. When it comes to the Templar class the game play is not engaging. A lot of people who main Templars were very frustrated and want to play the class offensively with their own skills.


That’ll being said, in the case of necromancer is the inverse needing only some adjustments to abilities like tether and ghost, making its defensive kit more appealing and valuable.

Just like Templar, it’s offensive kit is abysmal despite what many may say the reality is Blastbones is actually one of the best delayed damage abilities in the entire game being radial auto targeting with an obscene tooltip.

The ideal situation for necromancer is seeing things like Scythe being given an execute morph, ghost been given major sorcery and brutality, and abilities, like tether and ghost not being so short, lived by either LOS or crippling low health pools.

Just like Templar, I feel necromancers offensive kit, other than its ultimate and blast bones could use a significant revamp or redistribution of buffs to really make it more competitive and appealing, as well as an AI fix for blast boys.
EDIT: MAKE THE GOD DAMN GHOST PRIORITIZE THE CASTER FOR HEALS.

Be realistic, your people compare to DK warden, and the night, Blade… Templar and necromancer lag behind significantly in their overall cool factor and playability We should be trying to fix both of these not giving night blade another buff for the ninth patch in a row.

Its our turn to eat.

QuasiGumbo

Bushido2513 wrote: »

QuasiGumbo wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

In a 40k hp DK with damage shields, I was hit by a 15k PotL. No this doesn't happen ALL the time, but it shows its possible. If that was my nightblade (less tankier) it would've easily been 17k+.
.

This is such a far-reaching edge case. The amount of work and luck to make this work makes this negligible. The amount of damage you'd have to spec along with crit damage then building that damage in a 6second window and getting a lucky crit on the Potl pop is literally no different than throwing a handful of rocks at a cup and hoping you get one in from 10 feet away.

The dude you fought, literally has only hit this level once, and it was on you, and it hasn't happened since. You know full well how much time they put in on templar and to make this statement is pretty disingenuous.

Saying Templar is fine, is like saying swallow soul is fine.

Yet if I search YT there are no shortages of templar doing well in PVP. It's actually fine to say templar is fine depending on your expectation.

Now if you want templar to be DK or even NB then that's a different story but those classes are a bit overdone at the moment if you ask me so I hesitate to use them as a benchmark.

So what exactly do you want from templar in order for it to feel good for you?

KainED in post number 86 explains this very well.

KainedED

Thank you, also apologies for the jumbled sentence structure. I was using my phones microphone to write out the post since im away from my computer.

KainedED

Unironically I think Scythes an ok spammable, its so good for fighting a lot of people but falls short in 1v1.

Could use a slight damage increase.

Use scythe with stuhns and the exploiter CP and you can reliably drop a group of pugs sitting on you with a scythe, blastbones, DB

Im mind of on the fence about giving necro and AoE scythe execute because of the bonkers damage it can drop quickly.

Feel like it might be too strong in AoE form

Urvoth

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Looking through the comments I see a lot of people that are not being clear about what they want and arguing apples to oranges.

People are just like buff the class but that's not exactly realistic in a game where PVE and PVP balance are tied and the expectations / experiences vary wildly. Maybe just ask for specific changes for specific reasons?

Someone posted a video of templar or necro doing well in fights then someone else is like well those players weren't that good, or that was a certain type of fight, etc

The list goes on, some want 1v1 to be stronger in PVP, some what 1vx to be stronger, some want lower level players to do well on a kit.

Some like me just want to see a more balanced kit that favors player skill.


My point is that it would probably be better for ZOS at least if people said something like please buff X skill because of X specific reason and scenario that I'm encountering or because I believe it's more thematically correct.


For me as a PVP player of many years I can say that there are definitely templars that can straight up kill me so the power and survivability is there when played correctly however I do feel that the class feels uninspired design wise. The jabs animation decision could use a review because many just don't enjoy it vs the old animation. I would also say the javelin works well but feels a bit straight forward and not fun for either side due to not really having counterplay but also not being as fun to look at as say fossilize. Also it just straight up puts you into a routine combo without any fun of counterplay

Everyone's opinion will vary but I'm just giving examples in saying that I think templar is decently strong just not very fun to play. Also I don't think any of my thoughts would affect too much of pve. I really don't play plar in pve as much though its' one of my go to characters for easier play in pve.

The problem with people only saying "please buff X skill because of X specific reason" in regards to necro is that the class as a whole is extremely lackluster and fixes/upgrades to only one or two skills doesn't do much to fix it. There are more issues besides this handful, but just for example:

• No major sorcery/brutality or prophecy/savagery
• No reliable/consistent or on-demand cc
• No sticky dots despite having a dot damage passive
• No execute, and knowing zos if they give necro one it'll be a stam morph despite stam already having 2 amazing weapon executes
• No group buffing passive/ability like every other class has. Wardens provide minor toughness, templars provide minor sorcery, etc.
• None of the ultimates feed into a damage combo outside of a large group setting. Colossus is useful in PvE or when ball groups fight each other, but in a smaller setting it's significantly worse compared to just running generically available ultimates. The low comparative damage is delayed, it typically costs more than alternatives, and the stun will never land since enemies won't stand in the 3rd tick of the frost morph. Goliath form doesn't do significant damage, and the blastbones res ult is wildly expensive and the results are a complete coinflip. Half the time the blastbones won't even target the same enemy.
• The only practically useful damage skill in the damage tree is blastbones, and although it does do decent damage, it's inconsistent, won't hit targets that run away behind LOS or kite quickly, won't hit enemies that are using movement abilities, etc., and the mag morph doesn't do anything besides a flat damage number. It also can't proc set bonuses, which makes building in certain ways difficult since it's the primary damage skill.
• The heal tether is constantly LOS'd in most fights and the upcoming necro class set isn't worth losing a 5p bonus just to get your skill to function like every other normal class heal does
• No damage combo in general besides blastbones spam
• Boneyard self synergy isn't worthwhile after the harmony rework and even beforehand it was clunky just like all eso aoe placements
• Most of the necro skills only do one or at the most two things, and none of its utility skills do damage on the side. While that wasn't as bad a few years ago, power creep and reworks to other classes left many other skills now with 3+ effects. Arctic blast heals, does damage, and stuns for example, and Concealed weapon does damage, sets enemies off balance, gives major berserk, AND gives passive minor expedition.

KainedED

Kind of wild this thread has almost as much engagement as new content threads like endless archive and class set feedback.

If nothing else its telling.

i11ionward

Dekrypted wrote: »

No need to apologize, @KainedED. I use my phone 60% of the time and am in a constant state of fixing my typos on here haha. More participation is better than worrying about the little things.

I do agree with the sentiment of your post. Imo with some adjustments to the regularly used buffs that necromancer has having brutality, etc, its defensive kit would be much easier to bring in line compared to its offensive kit which has problems just like templars.

One thing I personally liked about Pre-Nerf Oakensoul is that it allowed me to use scythe as a spammable for my necromancer and man did it feel amazing. Taking that option away for me was a real bummer and I'd love to have the ability more used as an alternative to the regular spammables. Really Pre-Nerf Oakensoul allowed everyone with the mythic to be OP and outside of the obvious offenders like Perma Corro DKs, it felt alot more balanced compared to how the game is now.

I've been running this build in pvp for a few days in a row, and damn, I really like Scythe as a spam skill, much better for me than D-Swing. True, there is a problem: sometimes I just don’t hit the person in front of me with my scythe, as far as I understand, this happens due to ping/desync of the game, it’s a little frustrating.

CameraBeardThePirate

i11ionward wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

No need to apologize, @KainedED. I use my phone 60% of the time and am in a constant state of fixing my typos on here haha. More participation is better than worrying about the little things.

I do agree with the sentiment of your post. Imo with some adjustments to the regularly used buffs that necromancer has having brutality, etc, its defensive kit would be much easier to bring in line compared to its offensive kit which has problems just like templars.

One thing I personally liked about Pre-Nerf Oakensoul is that it allowed me to use scythe as a spammable for my necromancer and man did it feel amazing. Taking that option away for me was a real bummer and I'd love to have the ability more used as an alternative to the regular spammables. Really Pre-Nerf Oakensoul allowed everyone with the mythic to be OP and outside of the obvious offenders like Perma Corro DKs, it felt alot more balanced compared to how the game is now.

I've been running this build in pvp for a few days in a row, and damn, I really like Scythe as a spam skill, much better for me than D-Swing. True, there is a problem: sometimes I just don’t hit the person in front of me with my scythe, as far as I understand, this happens due to ping/desync of the game, it’s a little frustrating.

5/12 necro abilities, woof

gariondavey

Bushido2513 wrote: »

QuasiGumbo wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

In a 40k hp DK with damage shields, I was hit by a 15k PotL. No this doesn't happen ALL the time, but it shows its possible. If that was my nightblade (less tankier) it would've easily been 17k+.
.

This is such a far-reaching edge case. The amount of work and luck to make this work makes this negligible. The amount of damage you'd have to spec along with crit damage then building that damage in a 6second window and getting a lucky crit on the Potl pop is literally no different than throwing a handful of rocks at a cup and hoping you get one in from 10 feet away.

The dude you fought, literally has only hit this level once, and it was on you, and it hasn't happened since. You know full well how much time they put in on templar and to make this statement is pretty disingenuous.

Saying Templar is fine, is like saying swallow soul is fine.

Yet if I search YT there are no shortages of templar doing well in PVP. It's actually fine to say templar is fine depending on your expectation.

Now if you want templar to be DK or even NB then that's a different story but those classes are a bit overdone at the moment if you ask me so I hesitate to use them as a benchmark.

So what exactly do you want from templar in order for it to feel good for you?

Doing well in a yt video does not equate to a class doing well. Those videos are almost always against less skilled opponents.

i11ionward

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

i11ionward wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

No need to apologize, @KainedED. I use my phone 60% of the time and am in a constant state of fixing my typos on here haha. More participation is better than worrying about the little things.

I do agree with the sentiment of your post. Imo with some adjustments to the regularly used buffs that necromancer has having brutality, etc, its defensive kit would be much easier to bring in line compared to its offensive kit which has problems just like templars.

One thing I personally liked about Pre-Nerf Oakensoul is that it allowed me to use scythe as a spammable for my necromancer and man did it feel amazing. Taking that option away for me was a real bummer and I'd love to have the ability more used as an alternative to the regular spammables. Really Pre-Nerf Oakensoul allowed everyone with the mythic to be OP and outside of the obvious offenders like Perma Corro DKs, it felt alot more balanced compared to how the game is now.

I've been running this build in pvp for a few days in a row, and damn, I really like Scythe as a spam skill, much better for me than D-Swing. True, there is a problem: sometimes I just don’t hit the person in front of me with my scythe, as far as I understand, this happens due to ping/desync of the game, it’s a little frustrating.

5/12 necro abilities, woof

Alas, if there were alternatives, there would be more class skills.