Templar & Necro have been in a very bad spot for 5-6 updates now.

boi_anachronism_

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Necro is fine. Bone blast still hitting hard. Major vulnerability access. Boost to DoTs.

Templar is fine still got the easy access to purge. Healing without doing much. Reduce cost %. Nice burst of jabs with other skill combo.

More changes will just quit the players who already got use to their setups.

Blast bones is the ONLY thing hitting hard and its not nearly enough to wrap all class damage around. I mean blades got merciless, absolutely strong enough to build a class around. Arc has beam, same thing, sorc has pets. Those are major skills. I mean you are joking right? This cant possibly be serious. A really good necro will net around 115k maybe, a good sorc around 125k. Its skills are buggy and clunky on top of that. No organized comp wants a cro for anything except support dps or full support. Full damage gets laughed at.

And vulnerability is one of the reasons its used as a ot class not as a dps class.

Really, your joking right? Come on now

And no one quitting if they buffed necro, hardly anyone runs it compared to other classes. They would jump for friggin joy. Id love to use my cro for more then a buff [snip]. I got so many friends whose cro's are collecting dust right now while they wait for a change that makes it a least somewhat viable again.

[edited for profanity bypass]

sneakymitchell

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Necro is fine. Bone blast still hitting hard. Major vulnerability access. Boost to DoTs.

Templar is fine still got the easy access to purge. Healing without doing much. Reduce cost %. Nice burst of jabs with other skill combo.

More changes will just quit the players who already got use to their setups.

Blast bones is the ONLY thing hitting hard and its not nearly enough to wrap all class damage around. I mean blades got merciless, absolutely strong enough to build a class around. Arc has beam, same thing, sorc has pets. Those are major skills. I mean you are joking right? This cant possibly be serious. A really good necro will net around 115k maybe, a good sorc around 125k. Its skills are buggy and clunky on top of that. No organized comp wants a cro for anything except support dps or full support. Full damage gets laughed at.

And vulnerability is one of the reasons its used as a ot class not as a dps class.

Really, your joking right? Come on now

And no one quitting if they buffed necro, hardly anyone runs it compared to other classes. They would jump for friggin joy. Id love to use my cro for more then a buff [snip]. I got so many friends whose cro's are collecting dust right now while they wait for a change that makes it a least somewhat viable again.

https://youtu.be/54Hnv3oruqA?si=2u5BVMsKBJsQzm1j

[edited to remove quote]

Urvoth

sneakymitchell wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Necro is fine. Bone blast still hitting hard. Major vulnerability access. Boost to DoTs.

Templar is fine still got the easy access to purge. Healing without doing much. Reduce cost %. Nice burst of jabs with other skill combo.

More changes will just quit the players who already got use to their setups.

Blast bones is the ONLY thing hitting hard and its not nearly enough to wrap all class damage around. I mean blades got merciless, absolutely strong enough to build a class around. Arc has beam, same thing, sorc has pets. Those are major skills. I mean you are joking right? This cant possibly be serious. A really good necro will net around 115k maybe, a good sorc around 125k. Its skills are buggy and clunky on top of that. No organized comp wants a cro for anything except support dps or full support. Full damage gets laughed at.

And vulnerability is one of the reasons its used as a ot class not as a dps class.

Really, your joking right? Come on now

And no one quitting if they buffed necro, hardly anyone runs it compared to other classes. They would jump for friggin joy. Id love to use my cro for more then a buff [snip]. I got so many friends whose cro's are collecting dust right now while they wait for a change that makes it a least somewhat viable again.

https://youtu.be/54Hnv3oruqA?si=2u5BVMsKBJsQzm1j

So you think a clip compilation from a decent player farming cyro bots while using only 1 necro offensive skill and dswing spamming is an indication that the class is in a good spot? He's getting kills despite being a necro, not because of it, while running majority non necro skills because most of them are useless.

[edited to remove quote]

ketsparrowhawk

Templar and necro are not in the same boat at all. Templars aren't what they used to be but they're 10x better than Necro. Necro needs attention above all.

KainedED

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Templar and necro are not in the same boat at all. Templars aren't what they used to be but they're 10x better than Necro. Necro needs attention above all.

Its kind of hard to argue that when roughly 70% of the classes power is directly attached to a single ability ( radiant oppression).

That is /not/ ok.

Both classes are equally bad right now, i play both in PvP exclusively and I can tell you both are not well designed at the moment. Templar has a large edge over necro with its strong defensive kit; however necro has a stronger offensive power thanks to blast bones despite it being so wonky.

That being said, we’re talking about fractions of strength compared to classes like warden, dk, nb, sorc.

Neither templar nor necro does well with its own offensive class tools because they’re all awful.

ketsparrowhawk

KainedED wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Templar and necro are not in the same boat at all. Templars aren't what they used to be but they're 10x better than Necro. Necro needs attention above all.

Its kind of hard to argue that when roughly 70% of the classes power is directly attached to a single ability ( radiant oppression).

That is /not/ ok.

Both classes are equally bad right now, i play both in PvP exclusively and I can tell you both are not well designed at the moment. Templar has a large edge over necro with its strong defensive kit; however necro has a stronger offensive power thanks to blast bones despite it being so wonky.

That being said, we’re talking about fractions of strength compared to classes like warden, dk, nb, sorc.

Neither templar nor necro does well with its own offensive class tools because they’re all awful.

I also play both in PvP extensively and am a Templar main. I respectfully disagree. There is a chasm between Necro and everyone else. Templar is at least at the table.

KainedED

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

KainedED wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Templar and necro are not in the same boat at all. Templars aren't what they used to be but they're 10x better than Necro. Necro needs attention above all.

Its kind of hard to argue that when roughly 70% of the classes power is directly attached to a single ability ( radiant oppression).

That is /not/ ok.

Both classes are equally bad right now, i play both in PvP exclusively and I can tell you both are not well designed at the moment. Templar has a large edge over necro with its strong defensive kit; however necro has a stronger offensive power thanks to blast bones despite it being so wonky.

That being said, we’re talking about fractions of strength compared to classes like warden, dk, nb, sorc.

Neither templar nor necro does well with its own offensive class tools because they’re all awful.

I also play both in PvP extensively and am a Templar main. I respectfully disagree. There is a chasm between Necro and everyone else. Templar is at least at the table.

Think that has more to do with general player population choice of Templar over Necro. I can more reliably turn and burn and bomb groups of people on my necro where as the templar is specifically single target focused unless im using something like caltrops.

https://youtu.be/YutU2RbJmq8?si=sNxyyGhU359AnekM

My video for reference.

ketsparrowhawk

That dawny wipe in the middle of the video coulda been done by any class. Templar may not be equipped for bombing but they can have a lot of AOE pressure if built for it. I live in BG's and generally have a much easier time as a Templar than a Necro (no beam btw: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=488398 ). I do agree that the beam should be nerfed and that power redistributed to the rest of the offensive toolkit.

Biggest gripe with Necro is it's very difficult to get good buff coverage with a convenient bar setup. So many build investments are wasted just getting the basic buffs you need. They're good for bombing but honestly that's only useful against scrubs. Any decent BG team isn't gonna let you pull off more than one bomb. Once they know you have it you'll never land it again. And what else does a Necro bring to the table? I'd rather have a Templar on the team.

CameraBeardThePirate

sneakymitchell wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Necro is fine. Bone blast still hitting hard. Major vulnerability access. Boost to DoTs.

Templar is fine still got the easy access to purge. Healing without doing much. Reduce cost %. Nice burst of jabs with other skill combo.

More changes will just quit the players who already got use to their setups.

Blast bones is the ONLY thing hitting hard and its not nearly enough to wrap all class damage around. I mean blades got merciless, absolutely strong enough to build a class around. Arc has beam, same thing, sorc has pets. Those are major skills. I mean you are joking right? This cant possibly be serious. A really good necro will net around 115k maybe, a good sorc around 125k. Its skills are buggy and clunky on top of that. No organized comp wants a cro for anything except support dps or full support. Full damage gets laughed at.

And vulnerability is one of the reasons its used as a ot class not as a dps class.

Really, your joking right? Come on now

And no one quitting if they buffed necro, hardly anyone runs it compared to other classes. They would jump for friggin joy. Id love to use my cro for more then a buff [snip]. I got so many friends whose cro's are collecting dust right now while they wait for a change that makes it a least somewhat viable again.

https://youtu.be/54Hnv3oruqA?si=2u5BVMsKBJsQzm1j

If you were to ask Else (the creator of that video) about Necro, he'd say it desperately needs buffs. I mean did you even read the description of the video? The title is him making a joke.

[edited to remove quote]

ZhuJiuyin

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

So note the part where i say in content is different. Dks in content damage is actually much higher then a blade in pve by virtue of it being nearly impossible to keep a rotation that puts out that kind of damage, its highly inconsistent, sorcs also perform worse i content then dks. Necro in content is still lower then anything else here by a mile. It performs well as a dps in no situation. At the moment for in content the damage goes closer to:

Arc
Dk
Sorc
Templar
Blade
Warden
Necro

1 & 2 swap occasionally depending on the content.

But in the trial, what actually happened was
DK
Arc
Necro
Templar
Sorc
Warden
NB.

The same is true for the current proportion of the top 100 VSE HM LOGs
Arc 43 people (maximum DPS 171K, no magica Arcanist)
DK 32 people (maximum DPS 169K)
Necro 12 people (maximum DPS 117K)
Templar 10 people (maximum DPS121K)
Sorc 3 people (maximum DPS 99K, no magic sorc)
Warden 0
NB 0

DK and Arc there is not much difference, but there is a clear gap in other classes.

Obviously there is a significant gap between the actual situation and the data on paper. NB, Warden, and Sorc (at least magica sorcer) are still at a disadvantage in PVE.

MetallicMonk

From a PvP perspective templar really needs something but I'd prefer not to just keep buffing a delayed single target burst ability on a class that's insanely annoying defensively as well. I think jabs should definitely be the target it should be more effective in PvP than it is, maybe even doing more damage per target in the jab radius.

StarOfElyon

KainedED wrote: »

I’m going to be honest, this seems extremely unacceptable from a consumer standpoint. As much as I really enjoy the game I really feel like my time is being wasted.

We’re talking about a span of almost a year and some change of abysmal conditions for these two classes who barely feel intact when compared to something like Dragon Knight or Night Blade who have continued to receive drastic changes since update 35.

There are a lot of folks like me who main these classes who enjoy the fantasy they bring and theme, I dont want to be the next DK or NB I simply want to know that the development team for this game understands just how bad the current design for these classes are, and how abysmal they are to play at the moment and that it has been this way for several months to a year now.

A simple acknowledgment is all we want to give us at least a minimal amount of hope that these classes are being looked at.

I disagree. Melee templar is not great but it's not bad. They're almost impossible for me to kill solo because of their heals. Ranged templar is good and the best way to play currently.

Necros just suck.

KainedED

MetallicMonk wrote: »

From a PvP perspective templar really needs something but I'd prefer not to just keep buffing a delayed single target burst ability on a class that's insanely annoying defensively as well. I think jabs should definitely be the target it should be more effective in PvP than it is, maybe even doing more damage per target in the jab radius.

Its way too strong defensively, is genuinely needs a nerf to buff some of its offense a bit more.

Also power of the light still blows chunks, they need to rework it.

boi_anachronism_

sneakymitchell wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Necro is fine. Bone blast still hitting hard. Major vulnerability access. Boost to DoTs.

Templar is fine still got the easy access to purge. Healing without doing much. Reduce cost %. Nice burst of jabs with other skill combo.

More changes will just quit the players who already got use to their setups.

Blast bones is the ONLY thing hitting hard and its not nearly enough to wrap all class damage around. I mean blades got merciless, absolutely strong enough to build a class around. Arc has beam, same thing, sorc has pets. Those are major skills. I mean you are joking right? This cant possibly be serious. A really good necro will net around 115k maybe, a good sorc around 125k. Its skills are buggy and clunky on top of that. No organized comp wants a cro for anything except support dps or full support. Full damage gets laughed at.

And vulnerability is one of the reasons its used as a ot class not as a dps class.

Really, your joking right? Come on now

And no one quitting if they buffed necro, hardly anyone runs it compared to other classes. They would jump for friggin joy. Id love to use my cro for more then a buff [snip]. I got so many friends whose cro's are collecting dust right now while they wait for a change that makes it a least somewhat viable again.

https://youtu.be/54Hnv3oruqA?si=2u5BVMsKBJsQzm1j

I dont even need to answer this. Its already been done by several other people better then i ever could. The only thing i can say is thank you. By posting this you made my point better then i ever could have. He had 4 class skills on his bar out of 12. In his vid the 1vx is comprised of a 900 odd cp, a 500cp and a 12cp with the others being higher level. So literally half are newbies and it took forever for him to kill anything. My pvp sorc could take those 3 out by sneezing. Check out his blade vid, hes actually fighting more experienced players and the kil times and amounts are much quicker. Granted its an older vid but several skills have seen a buff since then. He would only be better now not worse. Any way gg

[edited to remove quote]

IncultaWolf

Man that video is just sad, and proves the point even more that necro needs help. First of all he's killing new players/bots, struggling to do so quickly, and only using "1" offensive necromancer ability on his bars, the rest are all from different skill lines.

KainedED

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Man that video is just sad, and proves the point even more that necro needs help. First of all he's killing new players/bots, struggling to do so quickly, and only using "1" offensive necromancer ability on his bars, the rest are all from different skill lines.

Unironically the best builds for templar & necro for pvp are ones that utilize 1 class offensive skill and the rest are a mix of non class skill lines.

The defensive kit is the only part of the class thats really used, that just kinda shows how bad things are, people are having to think outside of the box to make it work offensively.

mmtaniac

Purge in current game is not enough, first it's cost is too much, second elemental sus is free and add more effects and you can't choose wchich effect need to be purged, if i could than i will ignore most status effects that last 4seconds.

Purge should add his own status effect and grant immunity too last purged effects for 4 next seconds.

This thing could grant templars and necromancers some chances in game and possibility to counterattack this pure proc meta, give us some options finally in this cancerous situation.

VinnyGambini

mmtaniac wrote: »

Purge in current game is not enough, first it's cost is too much, second elemental sus is free and add more effects and you can't choose wchich effect need to be purged, if i could than i will ignore most status effects that last 4seconds.

Purge should add his own status effect and grant immunity too last purged effects for 4 next seconds.

This thing could grant templars and necromancers some chances in game and possibility to counterattack this pure proc meta, give us some options finally in this cancerous situation.

100% agree. Its totally unfair that ele sus is free, and to cleanse it you need to cleanse 2 times, therefore cost is 10k magicka. Absolute madness.

Imo debuffs should cost more than spammables, so you cant spam them. For example noxious breath cost more, fossilize even more, binding javelin more. But ele sus? Free. Rending slashes? Same as other spammables.

Dots, debuffs etc should cost more than spammables in general. They are not supposed to be spammed, but applied once some time periods.

KainedED

Still suffering.

wolfie1.0.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Hear hear...

Normally, I do my best to keep negative criticism to myself. I come from a software development background, and like to think I'm more sympathetic than most when it comes to dev teams. I am finding it extremely difficult to bite my tongue these days though. The changes being made are one head-scratcher after another, and it feels like if I don't speak up, the downward spiral will continue.

Are we feeling the effects of the microsoft acquisition? Is this the result of a slower-than-normal return-to-office post-pandemic? Both?

Hoping this team can get its act together as I love the game and have enjoyed it immensely for many years.

Speaking up won't change anything either - your wallet will.

right up until microsoft pulls the plug on the game in its entirety. most of us dont want that to happen, as dealing with 1 class being OP vs another one is a minor factor vs nuking the content in its entirety.

Reverb

Templar is a RP class

Tyrant_Tim

Reverb wrote: »

Templar is a RP class

For real, if you’re tanking on a Templar right now, you’re a roleplayer. Nothing else to it.

IncultaWolf

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Templar is a RP class

For real, if you’re tanking on a Templar right now, you’re a roleplayer. Nothing else to it.

I disagree, I've tanked vet blackrose prison, and most of the vet hardmode dlc dungeons on my templar tank

IncultaWolf

Reverb wrote: »

Templar is a RP class

I think you mean necromancer is a RP class. At least templar can get kills by using radiant oppression and has a reliable stun. Oh yeah at least templars have a unique group buff and class major brutality/sorcery.

i11ionward

The necromancer has a good defensive kit, but look at Summoner's Armor, it is totaly worse than analogues of other classes, and Beckoning Armor is still a more specialized skill.







And necromancer already has it

does he really need another skill that reduces the cost of summoners ability?

And this is the situation with many necromancer skills, they just require a little love.

Tyrant_Tim

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Templar is a RP class

For real, if you’re tanking on a Templar right now, you’re a roleplayer. Nothing else to it.

I disagree, I've tanked vet blackrose prison, and most of the vet hardmode dlc dungeons on my templar tank

Yet I’m sure it would have been more beneficial to your group having been a Dragonknight with all of their CC and group buffs, a Warden with their CC and group buffs, or an ult-gen Necromancer with Major Vulnerability.

I can’t imagine the lengths of justification you go through daily getting interrogated by players when they see you’re on a Templar tank in difficult content. You’re literally riding against the current.

Just because you “can” do something, doesn’t mean it’s a great option.

mmtaniac

Templar as a tank have no good aoe cc at least immobilize.
Off course we have great single target stuns we have 2 but still having good single target cc and 0 damage means nothing. I can stun enemy and have no damage to do him anything.
Our burst damage(backslash) is delayed and force you to fill it first to do something.
How fill our burst damage(backslash) if we have no damage as a class?
We have good cc, good healing, no tank tools at all(aoe immobilize ,better debuffs, no tank ultimate), smol damage in pvp ,acceptable in pve , 1 buff for team that still not needed because dk's have similiar one.

IncultaWolf

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Templar is a RP class

For real, if you’re tanking on a Templar right now, you’re a roleplayer. Nothing else to it.

I disagree, I've tanked vet blackrose prison, and most of the vet hardmode dlc dungeons on my templar tank

Yet I’m sure it would have been more beneficial to your group having been a Dragonknight with all of their CC and group buffs, a Warden with their CC and group buffs, or an ult-gen Necromancer with Major Vulnerability.

I can’t imagine the lengths of justification you go through daily getting interrogated by players when they see you’re on a Templar tank in difficult content. You’re literally riding against the current.

Just because you “can” do something, doesn’t mean it’s a great option.

I've actually never been questioned by any player in-game for playing templar tank. I usually run with 3 dps when I do trifecta runs and it goes very smoothly, I'm even complimented for my tanking abilities often so you might be over exaggerating a bit. Yes, I'm aware it's not the best tank compared to say dragonknight. When I got my first vet sunspire hardmode clear, our tank was a nightblade and I couldn't care less if it was "meta" or not, we got the clear without issue. Also templar can access major vulnerability with turning tide now, and with better uptimes while still giving group warhorn buff

mmtaniac

Sets is not game balancing. Game should be balanced by abilities not sets. Sets is just + addition to combat ,they should't be prime things in how game work. Right now they balance whole game around sets and ignore how class works without them. Some classes are too much gear depended ant this wrong thing. Only Dk is good always.

Tyrant_Tim

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Templar is a RP class

For real, if you’re tanking on a Templar right now, you’re a roleplayer. Nothing else to it.

I disagree, I've tanked vet blackrose prison, and most of the vet hardmode dlc dungeons on my templar tank

Yet I’m sure it would have been more beneficial to your group having been a Dragonknight with all of their CC and group buffs, a Warden with their CC and group buffs, or an ult-gen Necromancer with Major Vulnerability.

I can’t imagine the lengths of justification you go through daily getting interrogated by players when they see you’re on a Templar tank in difficult content. You’re literally riding against the current.

Just because you “can” do something, doesn’t mean it’s a great option.

I've actually never been questioned by any player in-game for playing templar tank. I usually run with 3 dps when I do trifecta runs and it goes very smoothly, I'm even complimented for my tanking abilities often so you might be over exaggerating a bit. Yes, I'm aware it's not the best tank compared to say dragonknight. When I got my first vet sunspire hardmode clear, our tank was a nightblade and I couldn't care less if it was "meta" or not, we got the clear without issue. Also templar can access major vulnerability with turning tide now, and with better uptimes while still giving group warhorn buff

Are you aware they just buffed the duration of Major Vuln on Necromancer last patch?

Last I checked Saxheel is pretty popular on Necro, a set that gives Major Force for 1 second for every 15 ultimate spent. Aggressive Warhorn has an uptime of 10 seconds of Major Force at 250 ultimate. Colussus costs 175 ultimate now with a yield of 12 seconds Major Vulnerability.

Within a trial or dungeon group, if your healer knows what they are doing, they are funneling ultimate to everyone. That ult-gen combined with all of the other buffs and debuffs a healer provide, make your two DPS feel like three. The speed at which those Colossus are dropping next to everyone else’s ultimates will give you the same up-time as Turning Tide, but also a much better up-time of Major Force than Aggressive Warhorn, without sacrificing your monster set like you would need to on Templar, or any other class for that matter.

But seeing how you insist that Templar is comparative to other classes…

Let’s make a list of everything Templar doesn’t have that you expect from a tank skill line.

• An in-class taunt, soft or hard.
• An in-class pull.
• An in-class root, either ST or AoE.
• An in-class unique unnamed penetration.
• An in-class health-based burst heal.
• An in-class AoE stun.
• An in-class tank ultimate.

Name one other class with this many things missing from their kit for tank, I’ll be waiting.